Sold on SACD/DVD-A!

[DeanP]

Just before Christmas, I picked up a cheap used Samsung HD-841 to see what all the fuss was about for SACD/DVD-A. I bought Pink Floyd's DSOTM, Fleetwood Mac's Rumours and Dire Straits Brothers in Arms to do the testing.
First I put in Pinks, I was amazed on the 5.1. Then I put in Fleetwood for DVD-A testing,again totally impressed and the best song was Songbird.
Now when I put in Dire Straits, that is where I was totally blown away. I guess being a newer disc means quality recording! All the songs were "crystal clear" and detailed. I like "Why Worry" the most with of the instruments feeling like they are coming from the air and not from any speaker.
So now I am on a fury of buying either SACD or DVD-A discs,which I have to order as I live in a small town. I have Elton John's Good Bye Yellow Brick Road & Journey's Escape on the way.
I would like to order some piano/sax mix but I have no idea who performs these, Do you guys have any recommendations?

[Bluespower]

I have two of three dozen DVD-As that I really cherish. It's a shame that the format for all intents has gone buns-up. I went on a binge last fall buying up some titles regardless of price and am now very happy to have them in the library. Some DVD-A titles you may want to consider are:

Donald Fagen
The Nightfly
Kamakiriad
Morph The Cat

Steely Dan
Everything Must Go
Gaucho
Two Against Nature

Grover Washington Jr.
Winelight

Diana Krall
The Look Of Love
Love Scenes
When I Look In Your Eyes

The mastering on these are jaw dropping. Finding hi-res material is getting tougher and tougher. Don't rule out eBay, Amazon, and Half.com for used discs. I've been very fortunate snarfing up the titles I really wanted. Good luck & enjoy...

[JonMarsh]

There are about 4300 SACD's released to date, and more being released almost every week. Good places to shop for them online include Acoustic Sounds, Music Direct, and Elusive Disk. Although you're pleased with your disks, keep in mind the biggest benefit you have from those disks is that you're getting a better transfer from an early generation PCM master. Native DSD recordings, IMO, sound even better. This may be partly responsible for the better momentum behind SACD, as many of the small but high end botique recording and remastering outfits have decided to support SACD based on the sonics. Also, there's no menu navigation requirements as often required in DVD-A. Playback without video support is cheaper.

Welcome to the Hi-Rez audio world, and take a peek at some of the other offerings on the sights I mention above. There's a lot of great music out there. Plus the better players for DVD-A and SACD tend to be better CD players, too.

[digital desire]

I have yet to get a sacd player, but at the available prices now, I don't think it will be long.
I really like the 10 or so dvd a's that I have, Lyle Lovett's Joshua Judges Ruth is one of my favorites. Graham Nash's Songs for survivors is another.
Are they not making *any* dvd-a's at all anymore?

[DeanP]

Well today I looked at the titles "Bluespower" recommended and came up with something different...Norah Jones: Come Away With Me. Really looking forward to playing it as the samples were great! I order only from Canadian companies so as to have no duty and they ship quicker. I get them from Chapters, Amazon.ca or DVDBox office.com.

[jim777]

In Canada, check out www.grooveyard.ca - they have a great music-sacd section with a good selection.

[DeanP]

Thats a good site. A little strange in looking around as you have to search everything out but the prices are cheaper and shipping is realistic! Shall try it sometime...

[JonMarsh]

Well today I looked at the titles "Bluespower" recommended and came up with something different...Norah Jones: Come Away With Me. Really looking forward to playing it as the samples were great! I order only from Canadian companies so as to have no duty and they ship quicker. I get them from Chapters, Amazon.ca or DVDBox office.com.

It's a really clean SACD, and the hybrid CD layer is pretty nice.

Which brings up the point that fortunately a majority of the SACDs released are hybrids, with an excellent CD layer, often superbit mapped down converted from the DSD layer. So, I buy a lot of hybrids, because the CD layer can be ripped and used on a music server like my iMac at full CD resolution in WAV format or Apple Lossless (I use the latter).

For anyone else reading this thread, a note that I've heard good things from friends about the new Oppo Digital DV-970HD; besides doing video upscaling on HDMI outputs, it offers good SACD and DVD-A playback, with an audio optimzed mode that turns off all video processing circuitry- it won a product of the year award in the budget category for 2006 at "The Absolute Sound", and does this for a modest $149. That's not to say it will equal high end players, but that it plays well out of its leauge in core audio and video playback quality, delivering quality not often found in sub $1K players. I've owned the original Oppo 971 DVD player, which I gave to my daughter this Christmas, as it's somewhat redundant since I got a Toshiba HD-XA1.

[Chris D]

Awesome, Dean! I know what you're talking about with "Why Worry" by DS. That song is so relaxing, especially on the new high-res album. Later in the song, as the band just jams instrumentally, it's beautiful.

[aud19]

I think I may have to update my player to a "universal" soon....stuck with a DVD-A only player right now.....

[ThomasW]

I took advantage of Tower's 25% off online sale and coupon to add to my SACD collection. Sitting here listening to the MoFi release of Patricia Barber's "Verse" ..... 8O

coupon code = J7F4T3Y adds an additional 15% off and free 2nd day shipping to orders over $100

[riceaterslc]

For anyone else reading this thread, a note that I've heard good things from friends about the new Oppo Digital DV-970HD; besides doing video upscaling on HDMI outputs, it offers good SACD and DVD-A playback. . . . I've owned the original Oppo 971 DVD player

have you used the 971 for DVD-A? i have the 971, but was looking to upgrade to the 981 specifically for SACD capabilities, and i know it is based primarily on the 971. people have mixed feelings about the DVD-A sound quality of the 971, but i am curious to see what you have to say, thanks.

[JonMarsh]

I only own a few DVD-A disks, and no other player, so I wouldn't say I have enough background experience in the format to comment. It sounds better on the 971 that the CD versions, but then the analog output of the ripped CD played on my Apple iMac sounds better still... better midrange deliniation and definition, better frequency extension and clarity. Don't ask me to explain that one. The problem is that the term "budget hi res audio format player" is something of an oxymoron, you know? On a given player, the high res format will sound better, but the overall player electronics and transport can vary quite a bit between a $300 universal player and a $3000 player. What seems to be the case is that the 981 holds it's own pretty well with most players up to about $1K. And that's a very good proposition.

The thing is, there are differences in reproduction that you can clearly here even on a "budget" DIY speaker like the Modula MTM (if used with high end electronics and cables) between my Sony SCD777ES (one of the very first SACD players), and my Marantz SA-11s. We're talking $3K+ players here, so you have to set reasonable expectations for lesser electronics. Talking about comparisons like this on an HT receiver in many cases might be pointless- there's such a spread in sound quality. The Outlaw Stereo receiver is quite good at it's price point.

~Jon

[Jack Gilvey]

i have the 971, but was looking to upgrade to the 981 specifically for SACD capabilities,

If it's specifically for audio, Oppo recommends the 970 over the 981. I recently bought one since I wanted a player that could pass the hi-rez formats over HDMI. While I haven't gone the HDMI audio route yet, the 970 via analog 5.1 has been very impressive even compared to my previous universal, a Denon 2900. And I was surprized at its video quality, given its apparent audio leanings. Gives a sharper picture @720p over HDMI to my AE900 than my 971, perhaps due to the exclusion of Faroudja processing (which lent a relative softness I'm noticing in its absence, at least on this pj).

[twitch54]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't DVD-A all but dead ?? and SACD while still going is only doing so thanks to Classical and Jazz, which to me is enough to continue, but if not your favorite genre pickings are getting somewhat thin ??

[Jack Gilvey]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't DVD-A all but dead ??

Don't know. I do know that the ones I already have easily justify a new $150 player. In fact, the Beatles "Love" DVD-A does all by itself.
I kinda hope it dies like vinyl "died".

[Blindamood]

Still living and breathing in my house -- I love it!

[twitch54]

Don't know. I do know that the ones I already have easily justify a new $150 player. In fact, the Beatles "Love" DVD-A does all by itself.
I kinda hope it dies like vinyl "died".

trust me vinyl is far healthier than DVD-A, buy a Looooong shot !!

[riceaterslc]

Jon,
thanks for the input. i understand that i should not expect the sound quality of a sub $500 player to be comparable to that of a $1500 + player. i am just trying to figure out if the oppo is going to sound as good as something that costs no more than ~$1000.

Jack,
thanks for the recommendation of the 970. i am aware that it gets very good audio reviews for its price point. however, i would like the convinience of having one player for everything. the 981 seems to fit that bill well. i may just hold out a little longer and keep searching on audiogon for a nice used unit. :T

[Jack Gilvey]

thanks for the recommendation of the 970. i am aware that it gets very good audio reviews for its price point. however, i would like the convinience of having one player for everything.

What doesn't the 970 do that the 981 does?

[JonMarsh]

The 970 only upconverts to 1080i; it doesn't have a Faroudja DCDi de-interlacer/scaler chip, which does a lot better with video sources and mixed cadence source material than most other chips used in DVD players (excepting the new Realta HQV Reon chip used in the Toshiba HD-XA2). The 981 has those, and does SACD. Costs more, of course.

Jon,
thanks for the input. i understand that i should not expect the sound quality of a sub $500 player to be comparable to that of a $1500 + player. i am just trying to figure out if the oppo is going to sound as good as something that costs no more than ~$1000.

Jack,
thanks for the recommendation of the 970. i am aware that it gets very good audio reviews for its price point. however, i would like the convinience of having one player for everything. the 981 seems to fit that bill well. i may just hold out a little longer and keep searching on audiogon for a nice used unit.

It may be a little early in the life cycle of the DV-981 to find a good used one on Audiogon, but who knows- sometimes we get lucky, as I did two weeks ago with a nearly new (and looked new in packaging) Ayre AX-7e.

The whole matter of lower cost CD players is a somewhat variable experience, and can be frustrating; IMO, the original Oppo DV971, which is DVD-A capable, sounds better and more defined than most quality "Budget" CD players under $500, examples I have compared include the Marantz CD5400.

OTOH, in the twilight zone/outer limits aspect, I've yet to hear a CD player under $1K that sounds as good as the direct analog output of my iMac G5, and that is really weird, as one doesn't expect computer analog outputs to be very high fidelity, but I know from contacts that Apple engineers actually LOOK and LISTEN to components they're considering using, not just go by specs in a data sheet. I'm curious to find out what's in that guy... especially hooking it up to the Ayre integrated and comparing it, it give my DAC1 someting of a run for the money, except the very highest frequencies, and only the Marantz SA-11S bests it clearly overall. It has delineation and articulation in the midrange (where much music is) that shows up in vocal harmonies and complex music that's not easy to replicate. The 971 doesn't.

Of course, it's not reasonable to compare a computer music server against a standalone disk player; different functions and different cost structures. But then it does hold almost 200 GB of Apple lossless ripped CD's and ripped hybrid SACD CD tracks, with an extremely accessible menu system through Front Row. Some of the best money I've ever spent for enjoyment of my music collection- most of my CD's are only moments away.

Sorry for the slightly OT comments.

~Jon

[Jack Gilvey]

The 970 only upconverts to 1080i; it doesn't have a Faroudja DCDi de-interlacer/scaler chip, which does a lot better with video sources and mixed cadence source material than most other chips used in DVD players (excepting the new Realta HQV Reon chip used in the Toshiba HD-XA2). The 981 has those, and does SACD. Costs more, of course.

Ahh, forgot the lack of 1080p if that's an issue. On my pj, it looks better than the Faroudja 971, which was somewhat surprizing. Oppo says it is indeed sharper, but perhaps at the cost of aliasing, which I haven't noticed. DVD-A is better than my 971, and of course it adds SACD. Nice deal. I guess the decision would come down to audio vs. video leanings.

[Brandon B]

I was also a bit surprised by Apple, namely at the analog output of the Airport Express. Then had this pointed out to me:

http://stereophile.com/accessoryreviews/505apple/

Mind you its analog output is not great, but it was nowhere near as bad as I expected. Trying to figure out if I have the $$ to buy a DAC1 to put on its digital output right now.

I have an Oppo 971, but have not used its analog outs as I have a Sony 555 SACD player in the system, and have many SACDs but only one DVD-A. When I get home I will have to hook up the analog outs of the Oppo and compare them.

BB

[JonMarsh]

Interesting Brandon- I hadn't seen that mini-review by Stereophile. The DAC1 I have is normally fed the output of the iMac, but I'd moved the iMac over to the "baby" system and had been using it for analog out while doing some listening on one of my DIY designs. The Ayre Integrateed came up because of a higher efficiency project I'm working on, and I want to use it to voice that system, and see just how well it can play with a high quality 60W/ch amp.

Remember the early CD players that had 200 nsec of jitter? First Toshiba models and even the first Sony S7000?

[chinets]

DeanP,
I really hope DVD-A and SACD NEVER die, because Multichannel Lovers like I am ,find These formats bliss and heaven ,and nothing in my opinion, beats it if you are a Multichannel freak like I am. There are many, many titles out there ,but very hard to find ,so by ordering through Amazon.com.UK and other sites will give you some insight as to the quantity of titles that are available for you to buy. "Yoshimi and the Battle of the Pink robots" sticks out as one hell of a Multichannel circus, with each Individual speaker singing to you separately...NOW that is extremely wild and will impress all your friends and family.
Cheers

[mitch57]

I rarely listen to anything but SACD and DVD-A. IMO DVD-A sounds better then SACD. More tight and controlled base for the most part. Although I have several SACDs that are as good or better then many of my DVD-As. Much of it depends on how the album was recorded as well as how good the transfer is.

To date I have over 270 DVD-A and SACD albums. I hope the format never dies and if it does I hope it's replaced by something like DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby Digital True HD which are both lossless audio formats.

Long Live High Resolution Multi Channel Music!!! ;x(

[Chris D]

270, wow!

[mitch57]

270, wow!

And still growing!

[Brandon B]

I only have about 15, but Nickel Creek's This Side is currently my favorite. Made me go buy a new surround amp because the little Alesis RA100 couldn't drive the surrounds at the correct volume.

BB

[mitch57]

I also have that album and it is a great recording.

[Ovation]

270, wow!

I'm pretty close to 300 hi-res discs (about 260 SACD and 40 DVD-A) and my hi-res to standard CD buying ratio is about 5:1 in favour of hi-res. I didn't used to buy so much so quickly (it took me almost 20 years to amass 400 CDs, but only three years to amass 300 hi-res discs) but A) hi-res MCH is outstanding and B) I don't want to miss out on stuff that won't be in production for too long. I also have about 180 discs on my wish list at SA-CD.net that, time and money allowing, will be added to my collection.

[chinets]

Yes, I'm with you. I didn't want to miss out on DVD-A and SACD ,and didn't want to regret not getting these discs if they ever ran out, so I did the same thing: I bought around 300 titles in SACD and about 200 DVD-A titles in less than 2 years, and Yes, I prefer DVD-A over SACD in many recordings ,as it has a tighter bass and more correct highs IMHO.
I have maybe 600 CD in my collection ,but it took me over 18 years to get this collection, and only 2 years to get all that High Rez collection. So Long Live Multichannel Music, and Long Live DVD-A and SACD !
Cheers

[riceaterslc]

wow, lots of fans here. so what would you guys recommend for a new/used player under $1k? doesn't have to do video, but if it does it should be on the same level as on oppo, whatever that means :W

[chinets]

I recommend the Marantz DV 9600 a Universal player that will give you the largest ear to ear smile EVER!!! Has SACD, DVD-A ,HDCD,CD, DVD-V with upscaling to 1080p, what else do you want??? Best Musical Player I have ever heard...Does that answer your question??
Cheers.

[riceaterslc]

Does that answer your question??
Cheers.

sure, if i was looking for MSRP of $2100, and finding them used for BARELY ($0.01) under my max limit looks like a damn fine player though :T

[chinets]

Sorry, riceatersic, but you pay for what you get. Good things DO NOT come cheap, and ,Yes, it is one hell of a damn fine player. For what you want from this player and it's performance: I find the player cheap for what it does and how good it performs. Actually ,it performs better, and I MEAN BETTER ,than MOST players 10 times it's price..so go figure.
Cheers and Good Luck!

[aud19]

You could try the 9600's little brother the DV7600. You'll likely loose a bit of the transparency etc of the beefier and more expensive unit but it's closer to your price range and from what I've read a pretty competent performer as well. I'm considering it to replace my older (DVD-A only) Denon DVD-1600 in the not too distant future.

[Ovation]

As someone who is extremely happy with the sonic performance of a Marantz DV6400, I can only surmise that the 7600 would be a very nice unit (and, if I were seeking to upgrade, I would be giving it a serious look). While the video side of my HT is still a work in progress, I am quite happy with my hi-res audio setup and am in the "enjoy the discs" phase (and I expect to be doing so for some time to come).

[earwit]

Hi-Rez formats will remain..

DVD-a, and SACD, will continue to be made, just like vinyl is still
being made....

This especially applies to classical and jazz recordings that have new releases
coming out every week...

The real question is on Rock Music, it appears that whatever recordings
have been made on DVD-a or Sacd generally 2000-2004 have stopped
being produced...

At the same time in 2006 hi-rez releases of the Flaming lips, Donald Fagen,
Doors, David Crosby , Beatles and others came out..

I think there will continue to be some hi-rez recordings coming out in Rock,
Actually the Beatles Love DVD-a was one of the best things that could have ever happened to Hi-Rez..

I really don't have a preference for either format, but I strongly believe that since most people have a DVd-player and few have a SACD player, making it a no brainer that releases on DVD-a that can be also played in Dolby digital 5.1 will have some mass appeal..

Then you look in the UK and the Sacd's in Rock are still coming, Genesis, and several other Rock releases are expected in 07 from the U.K.

[gd]

I don't have many hi-res discs, but I treasure the few I own, and would not be without a universal player.

You could try the 9600's little brother the DV7600.

I've heard (and helped set up) the 7600 in a buddy's system (Pioneer AVR /Sonus Faber Domus speakers), and it leaves very little to be desired.

Also at that DV7600 price point, I'd recommend Pioneer Elite... I've been hanging with that make for quite a while, as they generally meet my particular price / performance expectations (Music First in this house).

Either is excellent @ < $1K.

The only caveat I'd add is that I've never run across a DVD player of any kind that can play back Redbook CDs as well as a dedicated CDP or DAC... thus, the continuing presence of a standalone DAC in my 5.1 system.

[downhill]

I have yet to get a sacd player, but at the available prices now, I don't think it will be long.
I really like the 10 or so dvd a's that I have, Lyle Lovett's Joshua Judges Ruth is one of my favorites. Graham Nash's Songs for survivors is another.
Are they not making *any* dvd-a's at all anymore?

I've a question for you. I've got one copy from Amazon and one from their resellers.

Both are only DTS CD's and NOT DVD-A's.

Is yours really a DVD-A?