New A/V recievers with HDMI v1.3 info?

[Marzen]

Hi all - anyone have any links or info for home theater receivers or preamps that will support the latest HDMI v1.3? I'm looking for something in the <$1000 range. My wish list [in order] is pretty short aside from the above:
* 4 ohm speaker compatibility
* Sub woofer xo setting below 80hz
* 7.1 preamp outputs
* RS232 control
* On screen display for menu items
* Firmware upgradeable

Maybe I just don't know where to look aside from the mass market retailers.
-Ward

[Vinny]

There are no receivers can decode new audio encoding out of HDMI 1.3 atm. The manufactures claimed the first batch is going to land around 2007 Q2

Just be patient for another half a year

[aud19]

CES should yeild some info

[Marzen]

Geez, no online scuttlebutt? I would think somebody would be touting new technology previews, or are they all playing it close to the vest? I'm in no particular hurry since I'm waiting on the PS3 to be easily available for BD/media center...still, one likes to read about it and have an idea of what's on the open market.
-Ward

[Ovation]

I don't think you'll be seeing any 4 ohm capable, HDMI 1.3 receivers anytime soon for under 1000$. The vast majority of mass-market receivers are NOT 4 ohm capable as their amplification is simply not up to the task (I had to eliminate Dynaudio speakers from my final list as my receiver--Integra DTR 6.4, retailed for 1200$ at the time I bought it--is not 4 ohm capable). I suspect, at the price point you've specified, you're looking at mid to late 2008 at the earliest for all the features you list.

[Eric_C]

Can I ask what is the advantage of 4ohm over 8ohm?

[Marzen]

Well I reckon I'll have to make 6-8 ohm DIY speakers for surrounds then. I see Yamaha's RX-V line of receivers supports 6 ohm fronts and surrounds. I'd think that would support a speaker that only dips down to 4 ohms minimum at 20-20Khz and 6 ohm nominal. Not a deal breaker, but I'll have to go back and redo the crossovers for the side surrounds as they dip down to 2.5 ohms.
Thanks, I'll just keep an eye out for new products at CES.
-Ward

[Andrew M Ward]

Hdmi 1.3

Why HDMI 1.3 ?

1.3 is meaningless without the hi-def audio boards to go with it (right?)
and a display device with higher color depth than presently available at any price...

Why HDMI 1.3 ?


Just curious
~

[Eric_C]

I would not say Yamaha's support 6ohm very well.

I have a 2600 with speakers that work at 6ohm and they trip the amp at 80db.

At 8ohm setting they drive right upto 103db at 10ft and I turned it down because I couldn't take it anymore

[David Meek]

I would say they do support 4 and 6 ohm speakers. I'm currently driving Aerial Acoustics 7Bs (86dB/4 ohm) with my RX-V1 with NO clipping or shutdown issues.

Back O.T. please.

[Marzen]

Why HDMI 1.3 ?
1.3 is meaningless without the hi-def audio boards to go with it (right?)
and a display device with higher color depth than presently available at any price...
Why HDMI 1.3 ?
Just curious
~

I was looking for an all-in-one 'user friendly' solution to replace my current HTPC (or PITA as my wife calls it). A Sony PS3 would be a media center and hi def dvd player. Although my AX100 projector doesn't support DeepColor I was hoping to find a receiver that would support the new DD & DTS formats.
Oddly enough, I've noticed several receivers don't allow you to view their OSD over the hdmi connection, hopefully that and a fixed 4:3 OSD will change.
-Ward

[Andrew M Ward]

I was looking for an all-in-one 'user friendly' solution to replace my current HTPC (or PITA as my wife calls it). A Sony PS3 would be a media center and hi def dvd player. Although my AX100 projector doesn't support DeepColor I was hoping to find a receiver that would support the new DD & DTS formats.
Oddly enough, I've noticed several receivers don't allow you to view their OSD over the hdmi connection, hopefully that and a fixed 4:3 OSD will change.
-Ward

The new HDMI 1.3 Hi-Def audio devices will not be cheap (consider $5,000 and up) because the boards for Hi-def audio are expensive... never mind a receiver... I'm talking preamplifier

(so add 7 channels of amplification to that equation)

A display device with 30 + bit color is not even possible today, which is the 1.3 spec... (at any price) I would expect the first few to be over $20K for projectors and $11k for flat panel type

HDMI 1.3 is not for consumers today... it's just industry bull-shit
just buy something you can use and afford that's working today never mind all the hype and buzz-words

(I repeat)
1.3 is meaningless

[Chris D]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhkay...

[Marzen]

I'm glad you brought up the production end of the equation as I have some experience here.

The new HDMI 1.3 Hi-Def audio devices will not be cheap (consider $5,000 and up) because the boards for Hi-def audio are expensive... never mind a receiver... I'm talking preamplifier
(so add 7 channels of amplification to that equation)

HDMI isn't new, so much of the mfg's development cost has already been absorbed by existing products. Although at $9 ea in bulk, that is a pricey chip! However, integrating a new chip on an existing pcb is not that difficult especially considering the current single chip solutions that require a minimum of external support components.
As for the power stages; I would not expect mfg's to redesign their preamp or power amp stages to be better because of the new lossless audio formats. That would make a home AVR to expensive to compete in an already crowded market. Besides, there are already established hi end mfg's like Carver and Rotel, and that's a whole different pond to swim in.

A display device with 30 + bit color is not even possible today, which is the 1.3 spec... (at any price) I would expect the first few to be over $20K for projectors and $11k for flat panel type

Thankfully, Epson has the EMP-TW1000 projector out in Japan. It's a 3 LCD with 1080P support and retails there for under $3000 USD. How well it handles the HDMI format is really up to the mfg. I think we've seen enough posts online regarding problems with shoddy implementation of prior revisions. Most notably HDCP errors and handshaking issues on source components like cable boxes (transmitter) when used with an AVR (repeater) going to a display device (receiver). Lousy code and poor adherence to published specs has been a problem for some time on cheap/free equipment.

HDMI 1.3 is not for consumers today... it's just industry bull-shit
just buy something you can use and afford that's working today never mind all the hype and buzz-words
(I repeat)
1.3 is meaningless

True, probably not today. But soon. Unfortunately there is nothing available today that meets my wish list regardless of price. I don't mind the hype and buzz-words at all. I have a marketing dept that does that quite well as they could make sliced bread sound 'new & improved'. :W
Regards,
Ward

[Andrew M Ward]

HDMI isn't new, so much of the mfg's development cost has already been absorbed by existing products.

Thankfully, Epson has the EMP-TW1000 projector out in Japan. It's a 3 LCD with 1080P support and retails there for under $3000 USD.

I agree HDMI is not new...
HDMI 1.3 isn't new either (but)

1.3 is simply not relevant to gear today... HDMI 1.0 & 1.1 & 1.2 are fine and functional but 1.3 has a hi-def audio spec requiring boards not-yet-made for mass production

and

1080P does not require HDMI 1.3, so I'm not sure why we're talking about 1080P... 8)

HDMI 1.3 has a color depth about 3 times greater than current HDMI spec... 1080P has nothing to do with that...

Here's my point: and I do have one


When the first round of receivers start shipping that say HDMI 1.3 on the box it will be meaningless because the receiver will likely be HDMI 1.3 compatible but it won't have hi-def audio boards in it, and nor will it support 30 bit color... it will simply say HDMI 1.3 on the box.... (Yippee!) :rofl:

[Marzen]

Andrew, I looked at your profile and I value your opinion because (a) you have way better gear than I do, and (b) you work in the consumer electronics biz.
But I honestly don't get your point...please point out what I'm missing in regard to a home AVR:
1) Hi def audio support: no pcb's currently built to support this.
True, but I thought I explained earlier how easy it is to implement this.

2) HDMI v1.3 branding on the unit w/o real support of those features.
Wouldn't that be false advertising? Perhaps I'm really naive regarding retail. For audio support see answer 1; for Deep Color support the receiver would only be acting as a video switcher and hdmi repeater.

3) I only mentioned the Epson projector as an example of a display device that currently supports Deep Color. I should have been more clear there.

Sorry to be so dense, but sometimes I just am.
-Ward

[Andrew M Ward]

Andrew, I looked at your profile and I value your opinion because (a) you have way better gear than I do, and (b) you work in the consumer electronics biz.
But I honestly don't get your point...please point out what I'm missing in regard to a home AVR:
1) Hi def audio support: no pcb's currently built to support this.
True, but I thought I explained earlier how easy it is to implement this.

2) HDMI v1.3 branding on the unit w/o real support of those features.
Wouldn't that be false advertising? Perhaps I'm really naive regarding retail. For audio support see answer 1; for Deep Color support the receiver would only be acting as a video switcher and hdmi repeater.

3) I only mentioned the Epson projector as an example of a display device that currently supports Deep Color. I should have been more clear there.

Sorry to be so dense, but sometimes I just am.
-Ward

No worries,
I just get too worked up when I hear HDMI 1.3 :M

Regarding mfgrs. who put things like HDMI 1.3 or 1080P on the box - here's an example for you - Mitsubishi printed 1080P on all their displays two years ago! The box said 1080P right on it (all of them)...

The devices (however) were not 1080P...

They could display a 1080P signal that was internally generated on a built in hard-drive but otherwise they were 1080 pixel line TV's that were 720P processing... not 1080P - and lets not just focus on Mitsubishi many Mfgrs. were doing it...

So I fully expect to see: HDMI 1.3 compatible receivers that offer none of the benefits of HDMI 1.3

and worse

I expect consumers to ask for these devices and pay for them... for no real reason (sad) other than they say HDMI 1.3

[DL86]

So, with regards to the up comming rotel processor that is said to support hdmi 1.3. Is it going to have an extraordinary price tag? If it is to fully support it in all the ways you said.

[Andrew M Ward]

So, with regards to the up comming rotel processor that is said to support hdmi 1.3. Is it going to have an extraordinary price tag? If it is to fully support it in all the ways you said.

I'm not familiar with that processor?

[Jack Gilvey]

What sources would benefit from Deep Color? As I understand it, neither HD DVD or BD support it.
And HDMI 1.1 is all you need for the lossless audio codecs decoded by HD players to be sent as LPCM to a receiver. Some discs will require player decoding, actually.
I'd imagine HDMI 1.3 might be useful in a few years, but by then it will be passe' as everyone will want 1.4, or 1.5, or...

[Marzen]

Hey Jack,
I'm not aware of any current HD or BD program material that supports Deep Color either. I guess that'll take time to implement same as remixing the audio channels.
I thought I needed an AVR with v1.3 for 7.1 playback using my Sony PS3 as it has no discrete rca outputs. However, I just looked at the manual & I'm confused by the wording here under Setting Up the PS3 System - Audio Output
Now I'm not quite sure what it does. It says it does not support DTS 7.1? No mention of DD-HD...
-Ward

[Jack Gilvey]

I'm not aware of any current HD or BD program material that supports Deep Color either. I guess that'll take time to implement same as remixing the audio channels.

I'm not sure that the spec for HD DVD or BD even support it, though, from what I've read on AVS.

I thought I needed an AVR with v1.3 for 7.1 playback using my Sony PS3 as it has no discrete rca outputs. However, I just looked at the manual & I'm confused by the wording here under Setting Up the PS3 System - Audio Output

7.1 tracks can be decoded by the player and sent as LPCM (still digital, D/A conversion happens in the receiver) via HDMI (although it appears the PS3 only supports 5.1 for DTS HD), only HDMI 1.1 is needed for this. Current players/receivers do this, which is why I think 1.3 is more about marketing than real benefits.
Not all receivers can accept 7.1 LPCM, though, most do 5.1, see this thread for a deluge of info:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=738511

[EDS]

Sherwood Newcastle R-972 HDMI 1.3 Receiver

That ain't no typo. This new receiver from Sherwood Newcastle is stoked. The R-972 allows for biampability for the front channels and features a quadruple crossovers for the ultimate flexability in bass management. With HDMI 1.3 capability, upscaling to 1080p and Dolby TruHD and DTS HD decoding, the R-972 is a fully armed to the teeth with new techologies for the HD era and beyond. MSRP: $1,499

http://www.audioholics.com/ces/CESprocessors/SherwoodR972.php

[Eric_C]

I think I might have found my new receiver

[EDS]

Me too hopefully it will be available late this summer when I am looking to purchase.

By the way, there are a lot of Eric's on the board these days.

EDS = Eric_D_S

[Marzen]

I just received this from Emotiva:
Hello Ward,
Yes, we are currently working on a new platform that will incorporate HDMI1.3 with full audio stripping and processing within the processor itself as well as having full up-conversion and OSD onto the HDMI.
The projected release date for the new platform is late 2nd quarter or early 3rd.

Thank you very much for your interest and best regards,
Lonnie Vaughn

Emotiva Support

PS: thanks for the link to Lindahl's explanation.

[Blindamood]

More hdmi 1.3 support coming...

Another announcement, this one from Denon. A new pre-pro and amp, which launches Denon into a new arena...

http://www.audioholics.com/ces/CESprocessors/DenonSeparates.php