Let me preface this by saying that my 2 channel system before the addition of the Ultra DAC consisted of: Conrad Johnson PV14L tube preamp, Consonance CD120 player, Van Alstine OmegaStar 440EX amp, & AAD 2001 monitors. The musicality of the system was superb to put it mildly. I was extremely satisfied, "BUT". Here we go, you know what that means. The never ending quest, the relentless need to squeeze that something extra out of my system. Already being amazed at the performance of Frank's amp, I just had to try his Ultra DAC. So order it I did. The wait is finally over & here it is on my door step. I get it all hooked up & load my first CD. Bam!! what happened to the broken glass??? No, not to worry, nothing broke. What's missing is something that I never realized was there in the first place. That nasty digital edge that is the devil as far as recorded CD's are concerned. Something I suspect is there on a lot of CD players regardless of price. Some more than others. The Ultra DAC totally eliminated it. In trying to get as close as possible to analog sound from a digital CD, the Ultra DAC is a marvel. What comes to mind is absence of fatigue, with no digital glass breaking, the music is just so much smoother. I also noticed a better separation, depth, & amazing dynamics. The voices are so crisp & addicting. Now don't forget, the CD120 as a stand alone player is a stellar performer, but with the addition of the Ultra DAC it's now a world class performer. Extremely pleased & highly recommended!!! Good job Frank, (kudo's to your DAC gal) who is she?
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I have a Consonace sacd player and an Arcam dv29, i use a Benchmark Dac with the exact same results,It's alway's fun to get a little more out of your system
Kurt -
pearsall001,
I am not qualified to comment on the supposed sound of the Ultra DAC. However, I would like to comment on the advertising material used by the DAC manufacturer to promote this product in the hope that it may tell you something about the product itself and what can you expect from it.
I must admit that I am very puzzled by the promotional material because it is an example of an unbelievable technobable. The DAC description makes references to some electrical circuits that no text book has ever mentioned and no engineer has ever heard of along with a signals processing that physically cannot exist.
Here are the excerpts from the Audio by Van Alstine web site:
"…To achieve (this) no-compromise design, we started with converter and filter chips that can output a completely symmetrical waveform. This top-to-bottom and left-to-right symmetry is necessary to correctly recover all of the digital data..."
What is the ‘top-to-bottom and left-to-right symmetry’? Signal processing has no such characterization.
Certainly, - no ‘symmetry’ will ever ensure a correct recovery of digital data. Furthermore there is only one way to prove that the data is recovered, - show the specs! However, no specifications are published by van Alistine in order to substantiate that all data is in fact recovered. We will have to take his word for it.
The manufacturer does say that they will provide the specs if you ask, then why not simply publish it?
I suspect that the specs will show that even the 16-bit data does not get recovered by this product, due to its use of a vacuum tube output stage.
There is a lengthy discussion on the Van Alstine site regarding the specifications. It simply says that specs mean nothing. The reasoning presented is clearly wrong. Anyway, if one does not like the specifications, - fine with me, then why mention all the technology?
Why choose a clearly exotic and fundamentally unnecessary design approach involving a trance-impedance vacuum tube-based hybrid circuit? It is a lot like using your left hand to scratch the right ear and doing a poor job in the end, when the right hand is available.
If the specs are not important, - then use a passive single stage filter and be done with it. No exotic circuits will ever beat this simplicity and consequent ‘sound purity’.
My point is this, - you just can’t have it both ways.
It is either specs-driven competent circuit design or exotic circuit-component combination that will lead to an average performance and average ‘sound’. Do not mention data recovery if the specs are unnecessary.
"...A multibit oversampling design was used because conventional 1-bit processors are still too slow to accurately convert high frequency information..."
Well, - nothing wrong with using older ladder type D/A chips. However, to insinuate that modern 1-bit Sigma-Delta D/A chips that use high rate over-sampling techniques are somehow handicapped and incapable of near perfect data recovery is a major technical heresy.
Analog Devices Inc. in Boston or AKM in Japan make a number of 1-bit D/As that can theoretically recover nearly 22 bits. Those chips are specifically designed for the Hi-Fi audio use. Is Mr. Van Alstine implying that those engineers do not know what they are doing?
"...Our uniquely pure digital design is then followed by our patented Transcendence vacuum tube hybrid current buffered ultra-clean audio filter/amplifiers to get you the music first class all the way..."
What is ‘current buffering’ as it used in the context of the post D/A signal processing?
What makes the digital design used in the Ultra DAC to be ‘uniquely pure’?
There are only very few ways to design the digital part of the DAC. Regardless of the approach used, the goal of the digital section is to over-sample and convert, - nothing else. An icing on the cake might be a jitter-reduction circuit, however no mention of it here, so chances are it is not there.
Therefore we are left with a fundamentally 3 chip design, - a SPDI/F data recovery chip, an over-sampling filter and the D/A converter chip. Again, - how is it different or even better from countless other DACs?
The analog section has only one purpose and it is to provide necessary noise suppression. There are many ways to do this, but all of them boil down to a simple filtering. You can use op-amps, passive circuits or vacuum tubes; - none is substantially better then the other, with vacuum tubes being the worst of the bunch but still can deliver a notable performance.
"...New and improved for 2006 is an active regulated power supply board with six seperate high speed, high current active analog regulators, seperate for each section of the the hybrid tube filter section and digital section. This provides substantial gains in musicality, imaging, bass power, and freedom from grain..."
So, - what is it that sets this DAC apart from others, - is it the technical merit of its power supply? Reading this you almost get the feeling that the technology here is breathtaking. High current and high speed active analog regulators are used everywhere and all the time. They are plain vanilla $1 circuits, as they should be.
Furthermore, since the output circuit is in fact a tube-solid state hybrid, the use of separate regulators is an engineering necessity and not an attention to detail. If you do not do it, then you are guilty of bad design practices.
All in all, I am sure that this Ultra DAC works just fine, but the accompanying literature makes associations between the sound quality and circuit design that cannot be supported in a logical fashion. Simply put, - the axiomatic cause and effect nature of reality cannot be sustained here. It does not fit or stand to reason.
regards,
VictorComment
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Victor,
IB subwoofer FAQ page
"Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-BressonComment
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CHILL PILL !! ThomasW ,that was hilarious! :rofl:
I would use VIAGRA for upgraditis ( to step up) !! LOL :lol: :rofl:Comment
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Victor,
You have serious problems, mate! :T Let us dumb subjectivists throw our hard earned money away whatever the way we want!
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Take care and take the chill pill...Comment
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I think Victor's post makes for some very interesting reading regardless of one's own personal position on DACs. However, I also understand how nobody wants to have any real or perceived disparagement of something they just bought.
In any case, pretty much all mfg make embellishments about their designs/products in order to stand out from the competition so I would expect Van Alstine to be no different in that regard.There are some things which are impossible to know, but it is impossible to know which things these are. :scratchhead:
----JAFFE'S PRECEPTComment
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Hurry, We need VALIUM to separate the 2 of them :T
No Pain No Gain ! :rofl:Comment
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I spend quite a bit of time speaking with Frank VanAlstine and listening to his electronics powering Salk speakers at this years RMAF. I returned to that room multiple times during the 3 days of the show.
The listening room was uniquely setup so one could listen to either a tube power amp based system or a sound-state system. Both systems contained the UltraDAC.
Out of the gate I'll put in the disclaimer that as a general rule I'm not a fan of tube based systems. That said, what I heard in the VanAlstine/Salk room was an extremely enjoyable listening experience.
If I have an opportunity, I'll bring home one of Frank's UltraDACs for a serious audition. What I heard at the RMAF makes me think it's one of the few DACs that can give a Benchmark DAC1 a run for the money....
On a more personal note Mr Van Alstine is a true gentleman. Soft spoken, enthusiastic but in a restrained manner regarding about his creations. It was a pleasure to meet and spend time with him. And as is always the case, listening to Jim Salk's speakers was a pleasure.
IB subwoofer FAQ page
"Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-BressonComment
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Thomas,
I love the CHILL PILL! I know it is good! I also know that it works as advertised! One does not need to praise its virtues to experience the desired effect.
Can we say the same about the products we buy that constitute our beloved hobby, as the case might be…? Well, -… but I digress…
Having consumed the PILL with a glass of warm milk, I say that my post must not be taken as a criticism of the Ultra Dac’s hardware or Mr. Van Alstine personally. I am absolutely certain that the Ultra Dac is a fine piece of hardware and it works very well indeed, - and I said it as much in my post.
My post simply brings to light the promotional methods that were used to advertise the virtues of the Ultra Dac. The posted Ultra Dac description creates an impression that Ultra Dac electronics is more then just electronics, - it transcends the human understanding of reality, - it is next thing to real magic.
Methinks that the unsuspecting audiophile deserves better, - he/she deserves the naked truth.
VictorComment
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Without regard to this thread, or this forum, or any other, lots of people are not particularly interest in the pure truth, or are only interested in their version of the truth.
I always say (and no doubt it's been said before) there are three sides to a story. His side, her side, and the truth that is likely somewhere in between. Take it for what it's worth.
My own personal belief that extends well beyond this forum is that there is too much concern over eating the Holy cow.
BTW - Glad you like your new DAC.There are some things which are impossible to know, but it is impossible to know which things these are. :scratchhead:
----JAFFE'S PRECEPTComment
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Victor, I enjoyed your comments. Someday I’ll use the analogy of “ It is a lot like using your left hand to scratch the right rear and doing a poor job in the end, when the right hand is available”. Ok so I slightly modified it.
I’m sure the marketing staff at Van Alstine was doing the waive after they cam up with explanation.
But in all seriousness, Van Alstine does have some fine products and it’s up to marketing to make us all “believe”.
After all, many of us are slightly gullible audio junkies. If they tell us they found the Holy Grail who are we to argue.
ops:
JeffComment
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Here's some more chill pills for whoever wants them.
CHRIS
Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
- PleasantvilleComment
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Well, we are the ones to argue and in some respects I think it's our duty to sniff out BS and call it what it is. That's what I meant by too much concern over eating the holy cow.Originally posted by JeffAfter all, many of us are slightly gullible audio junkies. If they tell us they found the Holy Grail who are we to argue.ops:
Jeff
Do NOT get me wrong, I am not saying that with respect to the Van Alstine DAC, it's just a general comment.There are some things which are impossible to know, but it is impossible to know which things these are. :scratchhead:
----JAFFE'S PRECEPTComment
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Originally posted by Chris DHere's some more chill pills for whoever wants them.
Recommended over eating of the holy cow, I presume?
Last edited by Chris D; 13 November 2016, 15:42 Sunday.There are some things which are impossible to know, but it is impossible to know which things these are. :scratchhead:
----JAFFE'S PRECEPTComment
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After eating a holy cow, you will definitely need ZANTAC for indigestion, bloating , Excessive acid, and heart burn :T :rofl:
I also recommend TUMS and PeptoBismal just in case :E
Cheers!
Comment
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Mmmmmmmm... cow....
greg (gd to you)
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Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring
production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid.
Frank ZappaComment
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You know, I don't really think that's it at all.Originally posted by whoaru99
I think there are a lot of people in this hobby who simply don't have the time, technical/engineering background or maybe even the desire to sit down and learn about all of the technical fundamentals and compexities of the gear.
Certainly, there are a ton of misconceptions, misunderstandings and downright lies being spread about the gear and cables, every single day.
Certainly this results in a lot of people thinking they know what they are talking about, when in fact, they do not.
I'll be the first to admit I know very little about all the technical, engineering and design elements of the gear.
But I do know what pleases my ears and my brain. I know what type of gear pleases me and presents me with what my individual ears interpret as musicality.
And Frank Van Alstine's gear is without a doubt at the top of my list. I don't know why it works and sounds so musically amazing to my ears, but it does.
Butler Audio hybrid amps, Rega Apollo and Saturn CD Players, Wharfedale Opus and Evolution speakers, Revelation Audio (Alain Courteau's design) loudspeakers, some of the Vincent Audio Hybrid designs and certainly.......Van Alstine gear! All sound amazingly musical to my ears. Don't know technicaly why....or how. I just know I love the music coming through.TonyComment
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Whoaru99, my comment on "who are we to argue" was a point of humor. that's why the red face after the comment.
Anyone who knows this hobby know mfr's make statements which are hard pressed to prove. It's up to us to weed though the BS and determine how credible their claims are.
In Victors case, they haven't sold him yet.Comment
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I couldn't agree more. That's why I bring the piece home & plug it in. Now, I know if the manuf. was full of BS or hit the nail on the head with their description. It's how it sounds that's important to me. Sometimes we spend too much time reading specs & never get around to hearing the piece. If I really like the sound of the piece in my system the specs & advertising are really a moot point. I really enjoyed the AVA Ultra DAC so to me they hit the nail on the head. It's a keeper.Originally posted by JeffComment
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When Copernicus first published his book ‘On the Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres’ – in which he hypothesised that the Sun rather than the Earth is at the centre of the solar system – he too received a large dose of chill pills from those around him.
“We don’t need your scientific theories because we can see that the Sun goes around the Earth” they said, and they were right because that’s how it does appear.
Keep up the good work Victor.
Nigel.Comment
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I have to wonder why Victor would choose to come in here and blast Van Alstine's advertising material, when there's so many outlandish statements and claims being made by so many other manufactors who don't practice even 10 % of the integrity Frank Van Alstine does, with his products. And very few (if any at all) come even remotely close to the quality sound and build of Van Alstine gear.
Just take a look around this site and you'll see plenty of talk regarding manufactors who are not only much bigger fish to fry and who's advertising material is almost comical; but their gear are not nearly the quality and bang for the buck of Van Alstine.
I find this somewhat suspicious.TonyComment
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Tony, I think the reason that Victor has chosen to comment on this particular advertising material is that it is directly related to the subject of this thread!Originally posted by NMyTree
If Victor has the time and inclination I would be very interested to read his analysis of the Benchmak DAC1's advertising material as the DAC1 appears to be the product against which all other DACs are measured. That may also help to allay your suspicions.
Nigel.Comment
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I think Victors time would be better spent if he actually spent some time listening to the gear. Then he could report back with a first hand report on how well the piece sounds & if it lived up to it's billing. I take it he's never listened to AVA gear, but was very quick to point out to us what he thinks is dubious marketing material. If that's the case Victor will be very busy with posts if he also nit picks what other companies proclaim about their products. Get over the marketing hype & give stuff a listen. Only then will you know if your suspicions were warranted.Originally posted by bigburnerComment
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I think Victor's time would be better spent if he just spent a day sitting outside and he would see that the Sun goes around the Earth. He should ignore those dubious scientific theories and just have a look at the sky.Originally posted by pearsall001Comment
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Originally posted by bigburner
Hi Nigel.
Yeah, that's my point. There's dozens of threads all over the place which feature much more duplicitous manufactors. Which is why I have to wonder about someone who chooses to make such a big effort and take so much time to go after a Van Alstine piece of gear. Criticism? Sure, I could understand that. But I look at the time and effort and quotes he put into this; and I get a little suspicious.
It's interesting since Frank Van Alstine is a guy who DOES NOT advocate spending thousands upon thousands of dollars on snakeoil and fairy dust cables and other nonsense. Hell, if you call Frank trying to buy his biggest, most powerful and highest-priced amplifier; he'll ask you about your gear and then he'll suggest you go with a smaller, less powerful, less expensive amp, if he feels like you don't need all that power.
Just seems to me, that if Victor is interested in pumping out his chest and being the superhero who delivers the Naked Truth; he should go after some of the big boys who are much more guilty of not only fairly-tale marketing, but possibily of some questionable business practices and product quality integrity.
Klipsch, B & W, Bose, Monster....etc, seem like a more reasonable and appropriate place to start.TonyComment
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I always seem to get myself in trouble whenever I opened my mouth. Hmm…gotta talk to my shrink just to see if it’s something deeper then just a fundamental desire to see some measure of responsibility from the manufacturers of Hi-Fi gear. After all, - they do take our money. Would it not be great if they also tell us exactly what they are selling without invoking the forces from the dark side?
Truth be told, - there are so many Hi-Fi electronics manufactures that, well, to put it mildly are less then factual when it comes to their advertising and furthermore when it comes to their products. Let us not mention names here, as we all know to various degrees who those companies are.
Mr. Van Alstine’s enterprise is not guilty of manufacturing substandard electronics and then charging an outrages amount for it. Absolutely not! His company is simply trying to survive and then excel in the marketplace by producing reasonable gear, but then advertising it in tune with what an audiophile expects, - by invoking forces that have nothing to do with electronics or engineering.
Mr. Van Alistine is as an engineer, - and as an engineer he knows very well that the point I made in my original post has merit.
He may however feel that the only way to promote and sell his stuff is by advertising in a way that he does. This is unfortunate.
Well, - it is his right to do it as he sees fit.
I, on the other hand, chose his company as a target of my post, because in my view Mr. Van Alstine and his company do not have to do any of this, - they do not have to advertised their products as they do. They produce reasonable stuff that can in fact compete on its own merit without resorting to what appears to be objectionable advertising practices. Mr. Van Alstine likes the use of vacuum tubes as a way to produce the sound that he thinks we should hear, he ‘voices’ his electronics like many other companies do, - again, nothing wrong with that, because in doing so he does not rip people off.
What was it the Shakespeare said, - “The lady dost protests too much…” The Ultra Dac is a good enough product as it is. It does not cost an arm and a leg and it uses technology that may appeal to some and also may turn some people off, I am being one of them. Nothing wrong with that, - at least it will not bankrupt you in the process. Certainly there are better and less expensive choices, but the Ultra Dac will stand up to them by offering the sound one may like at a nominally extra cost.
My point is simple, - do not tell me that your electronics can accomplish something that the laws of physics clearly prohibit and then tell me that you hold the secret. Because I will ask for the specs! Or, wait a minute; you say that the specs are not relevant, so in effect you are asking me to believe in your gear in a nearly religious manner.
Unfortunately this will work with most people. Here is why, - most audiophiles have been educated by Hi-Fi publications that preach exactly that kind of religious approach to audio. This approach sells things after all, because it empowers anybody regardless of the background or education into becoming an instant expert on audio engineering. It strokes our collective ego, and we like it!
Forgive me, but I was educated elsewhere, - therefore I raise my objections.
Regards,
VictorComment
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Nigel,Originally posted by bigburner
I do not have a DAC1 in my set-up. I use my own DACs, when I need them. Lately they have been collecting dust though.
I did however look at the DAC1 advertising material here http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac1/
I must say that there is nothing misleading here. You get facts and data. The write-up tells you that DAC1 has ultra-low distortion and it gives the numbers. It then informs you that the sound you will hear is clean because the THD+N is so very low. The promotional material does not hide the specs. One can clearly see the cause and effect here.
The write-up further alludes to jitter reduction of DAC1 as a benefit to the user, that has direct relationship to the sound quality. This is very true, because the correlated jitter will manifest itself in a form of noise and will be picked up by the THD test.
The write-up also talks about some additional features, such as post-processing, which is actually of importance to the user.
All in all the DAC1 advertisement is ‘in your face’ on all counts. It does not claim to have any super secret electronics in its guts or perform any supernatural processing that is only known to the manufacturer of the said DAC1.
The DAC1 is an example of very competent engineering that uses well-known and proven techniques of achieving exactly what any DAC must achieve, - that is to convert the digital data to analog domain with as little noise as possible. The designers do not hide how it is done, - which is rather refreshing and it does inspire confidence.
regards,
VictorComment
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In case you missed it, the subject of this thread is someone buying a piece of new gear, putting it in his system and enjoying the performance.Originally posted by bigburner
Other's have chosen to high-jack the thread to push their personal agendas.....
IB subwoofer FAQ page
"Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-BressonComment
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Amen!!! It realy is amazing how threads get high jacked. Why is it that we can never seem to stay on topic???Originally posted by ThomasWComment
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Some people have personal axes to grind, others apparently need to troll...Originally posted by pearsall001
This thread is now closed
IB subwoofer FAQ page
"Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-BressonComment
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I finally got around to ordering it. Delivery will be around the end of OCT. According to Frank it will elevate my 2 channel listening enjoyment to a whole new level. At present I am very delighted with my 2 channel performance. But I am always looking for ways to improve without having to take out... -
Has anyone ever heard anything from Van Alstine?
Anyone know anything about their designs and equipment?
I have some interest and I'm curious in their Fet Valve 550EXR Amplifier, OmegaStar 440EXH amplifier, Transcendence Seven Hybrid Tube Pre Amplifier and OmegaStar... -
I've been toying with the idea of getting an external DAC. The issue is, my CD player had one of the best rated DACs of the internal variety when I bought it 2 years ago. It's a CalAudio CL-5. I'm wondering what type of improvement or change in the sound would result with the... -
Ah!! the audio bug might be biting again. My present 2 channel system consists of: A Conrad Johnson PV14L tube preamp, Van Alstine OmegaStar440EX amp, Consonance CD120 upsampling CD player, & AAD 2001 monitors. Now don't get me wrong, I really do like the way my system sounds, but it's just been...
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Please note that this is a work in progress.
A couple of years ago, I started accumulating parts for a DAC build that would allow me to play back my collection of SACD rips.
I had been using a Logitech Touch with EDO app into a CEntrance DACmini.
A couple...
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