Do Amplifiers Sound Different?

[Russ L]

One things for sure... a good cappuccino makes an amp sound better

[misterdoggy]

Nothing like a good cappuccinno and good music

[Victor]

Misterdoggy,

You live in a nice country, - I visited France many times. The issue that I would have with your line of reasoning is that power amplifiers are not coffee nor it is a work of art, nor does it have any spiritual connotations. Power amp is an appliance.

The Hi-Fi industry has created this image of audio components that somehow have magical powers which are due to the magic of the design process or parts used. There is almost a mythical statute to Power Amps as a result of this hype.

We need to disengage from that approach. Power amps are an appliance and nothing more.

By the way, I see that my analogy with Rolex did not go well, - yes it is mechanical. However I also have an Omega which is quartz powered and cost a 200 times more then Timex. At this time, I am not sure which watch actually keeps better time, - they are the same in this regard, still I prefer Omega any day.

The Power Amps are the same as wrist watches these days, - they are commodity items for the most part. As long as the THD+N says better then 16 bits and the power is what you require, then no matter what it says on the box, - any amp will do.

regards,
Victor

[misterdoggy]

Misterdoggy,

You live in a nice country, - I visited France many times. The issue that I would have with your line of reasoning is that power amplifiers are not coffee nor it is a work of art, nor does it have any spiritual connotations. Power amp is an appliance.

The Hi-Fi industry has created this image of audio components that somehow have magical powers which are due to the magic of the design process or parts used. There is almost a mythical statute to Power Amps as a result of this hype.

We need to disengage from that approach. Power amps are an appliance and nothing more.

By the way, I see that my analogy with Rolex did not go well, - yes it is mechanical. However I also have an Omega which is quartz powered and cost a 200 times more then Timex. At this time, I am not sure which watch actually keeps better time, - they are the same in this regard, still I prefer Omega any day.

The Power Amps are the same as wrist watches these days, - they are commodity items for the most part. As long as the THD+N says better then 16 bits and the power is what you require, then no matter what it says on the box, - any amp will do.

regards,
Victor

Victor,

The Omega and Timex both being quartz crystals would keep exactly the same time. This is a good example of no differences.

I believe you "think" you have a profound understanding, and alas you do have a lot of understanding as you chose the DIY. While constructing a DIY Amp one learns a lot.

But the question is whether or not, while you were putting together your kits, did you learn and really understand everything that top designers (and I don't mean fashion designers) of Krell and Levinson do ?

Might it not be a "rationalisation" on the part of someone who chooses to "do it himself" to think he knows everything, and what he has commited himself to is "as good" as it gets ?

I would say there are differences for reasons "beyond" my particular understanding, that Amplifiers sound different. I had a Rotel 1090 for instance and it was a great Amplifier, but the sounds that came out of the Levinson 433 and 432 were superior.

I congratulate you on building your own amplifiers, cost effective, and a feat of engineering for the ordinary or extra-ordinary man, but that doesn't mean that what you could build is as good or better than a dedicated Company with a slew of Engineers, designers and technicians who devote their lives to one sole purpose.

If I could buy a "Victor Amp" and his reasons why its the same and a "Mark Levinson" Amplifier and their reasons why its not, I will probably go with Mark Levinson.

added: No dis-repect intended to a Professor EE, who even built your own speakers, but its more likely a man of science would repute the general claims of the audio industry.

I would accept scientific explanations of the physics involved, "if" I didn't "hear" differences that these formulas render impossible.

respectfully
Doggy

[misterdoggy]

BTW, misterdoggy, I like your avitar. Did you design it?

Sorry I missed this post. I am a poster dealer so I have an enormous amount of designs to take from. This one is from Italy pre-war and I would need to do some research to get you the artists' name. One of my favorites, but the original poster goes for big $$ :T

[Seeme]

I know I'm late to this thread but I thought I would add my thoughts.

In my experience, I have found that I needed to audition the amp's side by side with the same equipment or in an in-home demo for an extended period of time to truly hear the difference. I have been lucky enough to have dealers that let me take them home for a week or even two to audition them.

The thing that I have noticed is that with higher end gear it get's hard to hear the difference right off the back but when comparing lower Mid-Fi components... it's easier.

I started out listening to B&K and Adcom equipment but when I jumped up to Krell, Classe and Mac's etc… I heard a huge difference in sound and I could not go back.

Now... what I noticed with the higher end amp's was; when I was looking for new amps, I was trying to listen for the same difference that I had when I moved from the B&K amps. I was wrong in my thinking. What I found out, was that I should be listening for the synergy at this point. Once I got to a certain level, they all sounded great.

When I started trying to mate my B&W's 802's "now replaced with Dali's MS5's" I realized that it was a certain type of sound that I was after. I found out that I really liked a Dynamic, DETAILED, Deep soundstage and airy sound, Warm presentation.

As I auditioned the following amps; Krell, Classe, Music Fid., Mac, Bryston, Theta and a few others. They all sounded great but they all brought different things to my listening experience:

The Krell's made the bass sound awesome but I found it pretty cold in the presentation. Is that a bad thing...? No because it comes down to personnel taste.

The Mac's and Bryston had a forward sounding presentation with regards to my speakers.

The Classe and the Music Fidelity had a warmer presentation to them. I wish the Classe had the same control over the bass as the Krell do.

The differences where subtle but after long sessions, they where easier to pin point.

In the end I decided on the amp that it was just easier listening to and had more of what I liked.

In closing, I feel that amps of good quality sound great, they just present the music in different ways and it just comes down to what you like about the sound. The synergy is what it's all about because not only does the speakers make a difference to how the amps sound but so does the CD/DVD "Source", Pre-Amp "Tubes/SS" even cables and room treatments.

In this addition give a read to the "Sept. edition" of TAS "The Absolute Sound" "Why amps are so important" pg 89. that's a good read.

[AptosJeff]

Very good points, Seeme. I don't get TAS, but maybe someone can post a link to part of the article?

[dyazdani]

Seeme, that was a good post...

[misterdoggy]

Well put !! Exactly my sentiments.......

[Alloroc]

my coffee is pretty good. Professional machine Rancilio, with professional coffee grinder, Rancilio, Lavazza beans, special blend for gourmet restaurants, but not as good as you get at the "autogrill" on the autostrada ?

Hey there Misterdoggy! We Euros have it up against us! I'm a busy man so I use a Jura bean to cup machine - bit of a sin I know but there you go! It does make a great cup of fresh coffee/espresso. My loacl coffee shop uses a Rancillo with Palombini beans to keep me happy and since we're on the topic of coffee, I'm going to let you all in on my best kept not so secret secret.

The best Italian coffee imho is Sant’ Eustachio coffee by Caffe’ Sant’ Eustachio in Roma! The cafe and coffee is fantasic. It's just off Piazza Navona. They roast on premesis so it's ultra fresh and they'll ship anywhere - just a little slowly!

http://www.santeustachioilcaffe.it/

I suppose we've gone so off topic here, might be an idea to take this up elsewhere - I might do so later - I've a bunch of 'honeydoos' to take care of now...... (honey do this, honey do that)

[Karma]

HI All,
I have largely abstained from this thread because I have made my opinions known before. But I have followed it with a smile on my face.

This thread is amazing. It's like life except it never dies. There is no way to predict the next turn. From Klasse, to Koffee, to Krell. Where will it go next??

Thanks for the fun and thoughts and ideas. ;x(

Sparky

[misterdoggy]

Hey there Misterdoggy! We Euros have it up against us! I'm a busy man so I use a Jura bean to cup machine - bit of a sin I know but there you go! It does make a great cup of fresh coffee/espresso. My loacl coffee shop uses a Rancillo with Palombini beans to keep me happy and since we're on the topic of coffee, I'm going to let you all in on my best kept not so secret secret.

The best Italian coffee imho is Sant’ Eustachio coffee by Caffe’ Sant’ Eustachio in Roma! The cafe and coffee is fantasic. It's just off Piazza Navona. They roast on premesis so it's ultra fresh and they'll ship anywhere - just a little slowly!

http://www.santeustachioilcaffe.it/

I suppose we've gone so off topic here, might be an idea to take this up elsewhere - I might do so later - I've a bunch of 'honeydoos' to take care of now...... (honey do this, honey do that)

Allroc,

Thanks for the tip. I've written them and will try a 2 kilo bag of their coffee. I'll let you know after.

I use a Lavazza coffee that is only available to professionals, "gran aroma bar" and its good for cappuccino, but my search has not ended.

I was in the islands guadaloupe and drank their local coffee and it was really good. But it was only available locally. Jamaican coffee is great "blue mountain" Hawaii "kona" but for Cappuccino the Italians blend it best and for me its lavazza gran aroma. ;x(

I'm going to Alassio on wednesday for 3 days on the coast near Genoa and the food and coffee and ice cream (Gelati) are unbelieveable. :T

[Arneson]

Finally, this thread has turned into an episode of Frazier.

[Alloroc]

Finally, this thread has turned into an episode of Frazier.

I'm not sure if I should feel complimented or insulted

[Arneson]

Yes I deserve a stern warning for that, but I am still laughing.

[whoaru99]

I rather fancy Kenya...

Received some Blue Mountain as a gift, but was not impressed - think I had a bad roast (over done) or perhaps stale.

[misterdoggy]

Vincent,

You have my compliments.

Thanks for the heads up on the coffee..... :T

I don't care what anyone thinks

I live in Europe 1 hour from Italy, 1 hour from Switzerland,

like coffee and HiFi ? :coffee:

[misterdoggy]

I rather fancy Kenya...

Received some Blue Mountain as a gift, but was not impressed - think I had a bad roast (over done) or perhaps stale.

Nothing to do with Amps, but did you know ALL coffee originated from the kenya Africa region. It was kept a secret by the Turks for centuries at the risk of loss of life for revealing outsiders. Finally A Mogul gave a plant as a gift to the King of France (or another European) and it was grown on the Tea Route ie: India, Southeast Asia, Carribean, South America etc and then different blends started by mixing the plants.

For me Arabica is the one, which is 100% from Africa.

[Arneson]

What? I thought that was the Beer Story.

I know, I should be banned.

[wolfgang]

Wonder who do you think is Dr Crane and who is the other Dr Crane.

:alol:

Painfully accurate observation.

[Arneson]

I was thinking more about the Father and the dog.

[greenjudas]

I have enjoyed the readings and the rantings that this thread has produced but it seems it must come to an end if there is nothing left but to talk about,but coffee.I do love an Earl Grey tea but...........................people don't come here to read about beverages. :roll:

[wolfgang]

I was thinking more about the Father and the dog.

Hmm..... in that case need a bit of help.

[misterdoggy]

Wolfgang & Arneson,

If you don't appreciate the relationship between Good Amps and Good coffee......

that's OK.

We won't think less of you

[Indytown]

I know I'm late to this thread but I thought I would add my thoughts.

In my experience, I have found that I needed to audition the amp's side by side with the same equipment or in an in-home demo for an extended period of time to truly hear the difference. I have been lucky enough to have dealers that let me take them home for a week or even two to audition them.

The thing that I have noticed is that with higher end gear it get's hard to hear the difference right off the back but when comparing lower Mid-Fi components... it's easier.

I started out listening to B&K and Adcom equipment but when I jumped up to Krell, Classe and Mac's etc… I heard a huge difference in sound and I could not go back.

Now... what I noticed with the higher end amp's was; when I was looking for new amps, I was trying to listen for the same difference that I had when I moved from the B&K amps. I was wrong in my thinking. What I found out, was that I should be listening for the synergy at this point. Once I got to a certain level, they all sounded great.

When I started trying to mate my B&W's 802's "now replaced with Dali's MS5's" I realized that it was a certain type of sound that I was after. I found out that I really liked a Dynamic, DETAILED, Deep soundstage and airy sound, Warm presentation.

As I auditioned the following amps; Krell, Classe, Music Fid., Mac, Bryston, Theta and a few others. They all sounded great but they all brought different things to my listening experience:

The Krell's made the bass sound awesome but I found it pretty cold in the presentation. Is that a bad thing...? No because it comes down to personnel taste.

The Mac's and Bryston had a forward sounding presentation with regards to my speakers.

The Classe and the Music Fidelity had a warmer presentation to them. I wish the Classe had the same control over the bass as the Krell do.

The differences where subtle but after long sessions, they where easier to pin point.

In the end I decided on the amp that it was just easier listening to and had more of what I liked.

In closing, I feel that amps of good quality sound great, they just present the music in different ways and it just comes down to what you like about the sound. The synergy is what it's all about because not only does the speakers make a difference to how the amps sound but so does the CD/DVD "Source", Pre-Amp "Tubes/SS" even cables and room treatments.

In this addition give a read to the "Sept. edition" of TAS "The Absolute Sound" "Why amps are so important" pg 89. that's a good read.

Seeme,

Good post, I agree with you about Classe, they do need to address the reproduction of the bass region of the CAM 400, very accurate just no texture or substance to it.

[Victor]

Seeme,

Good post, I agree with you about Classe, they do need to address the reproduction of the bass region of the CAM 400, very accurate just no texture or substance to it.

What you are asking is impossible. There is absolutely nothing that an engineer can do to “...address the reproduction of bass region…” short of purposely ‘voicing’ the amp to artificially exaggerate the low frequency. This effort will screw up the frequency response of the amp, as it will no longer be flat, - and nobody wants that.

[misterdoggy]

What you are asking is impossible. There is absolutely nothing that an engineer can do to “...address the reproduction of bass region…” short of purposely ‘voicing’ the amp to artificially exaggerate the low frequency. This effort will screw up the frequency response of the amp, as it will no longer be flat, - and nobody wants that.

Here we go again :rofl:

That's just the point. Even if an Amplifier "should" do nothing but Amplify like a magnifying glass, the engineers do something somewhere to change it along the way and "affect" the sound somehow.

They are as you put it "screwing something up" that results in sometimes better and sometimes worse effects.

In a perfect world, an Amp should not change and just do what the word means AMPLIFY.

But that doesn't happen and we have lots of different makers that have different sounds for different reasons that capable people like people in this thread say they hear. :T

[Nick M]

The only real differences I can hear are those between cheapo amps in $199 A/V receivers, the solid/clear sound of a dedicated solid-state amp, and the warm sound of a vintage tube-amp. As far as "tube vs tube" or "Rotel vs Parasound", I personally can't hear a difference.

Perhaps if you had an A/B patchboard where you could instantaneously switch on the fly I might notice a difference, but if you played me a piece, waited five minutes to switch amps, and then played the same piece with similar equipment, I wouldn't be able to blindly pick which is which with anything approaching 80-90% accuracy.

[misterdoggy]

Nick,

Rotel vs Parasound ?

I see from your equipment you have a Rotel 1075. I think if you hooked up a JC-1 you would hear a difference.

Furthermore, if you hooked up a krell evolution and your 1075 you would also hear a difference.

If you didn't, then be happy with your 1075 rotel as then its the best amp you can find for the money (in your mind)

[Nick M]

I've listened to Arcam, Krell, and Parasound products at Hifi shops and can't hear a difference with blind testing. Spent almost 6hrs at the shop one day trying it (also experimented with the multi-thousand dollar CD players). Yes, I'm perfectly happy with my Rotel! :T

Now I could easily tell when he swapped to a tube amp or a cheap receiver they keep for demonstration purposes, but I honestly couldn't pick out various solid-state amps from one another with any positive rate of accuracy once the prices went up into the thousand or multi-thousand dollar range. I guess it's diminishing returns that my ears aren't sensitive enough to pick-up.

Speakers on the other hand are a whole different ball o' wax...

[misterdoggy]

Like I said

If you are happy with your 1075 and can't hear the difference, then that's all that counts.

If I say I am happy because I heard a difference, maybe my ears hear something yours didn't and that might be a difference of a ball of wax

Justs kidding. If you you are happy with what you have and made the decision because of what you can't hear or didn't hear than thats that.

After all its about being happy `

[Nick M]

Definetly! I'm not trying to bash any equipment or manufacturers, just giving my $0.02 on what my ears can personally recognize and differentiate.

[Victor]

Even if an Amplifier "should" do nothing but Amplify like a magnifying glass, the engineers do something somewhere to change it along the way and "affect" the sound somehow.

What would, in your opinion, that “something“ be? Also, how exactly would you propose that that “something” be done “somehow”. I would really like to know.

I am going to be very straight with you, - I have more then 15 years of direct design experience of various analog circuits, including linear power amplifiers. Some of my work you can purchase today, - and I am telling you that I have absolutely no idea as to how would one go about making the bass any more then what it already is, unless the frequency response of the amp is changed to exaggerate the frequencies of interest.

I will also tell you that I am absolutely certain that nobody knows how to do that, including the designers of Levinsons amplifiers.

Things do not happen by magic in electrical engineering.

They are as you put it "screwing something up" that results in sometimes better and sometimes worse effects.

In a perfect world, an Amp should not change and just do what the word means AMPLIFY.

But that doesn't happen and we have lots of different makers that have different sounds for different reasons that capable people like people in this thread say they hear.

This is not true at all.

Take it as an open challenge to locate a reputable engineer involved in power amplifier design who would support your point of view.

There is a cause and effect here, - that is to say that in order to change the bass you must change the signal frequencies and the amplitudes associated with that bass! There is no other way around it.

You can change components and all you will accomplish is the change in THD+N numbers. Can you hear that? Perhaps you can, if that change is profound, - just ask the tube amplifier designers who routinely produce power amps with 1% of THD. Sure you can hear that, but you are hearing the distortion that was purposely produced for your benefit and you may even like it.

But, if the distortion is low enough, say below 0.1% and the pass band is flat, - then the bass signal frequencies and amplitudes have no impact on what you are actually hearing.

I am not stating my personal opinion here; - I am stating a fact supported by physics, electrical engineering and psycho-acoustics as we know it.

Regards,
Victor

[Russ L]

That's just the point. Even if an Amplifier "should" do nothing but Amplify like a magnifying glass, the engineers do something somewhere to change it along the way and "affect" the sound somehow.

Precisely. I just hooked up a new pair of speakers to a new amp with new interconnects and new speaker cables. The First day the sound was harsh and cloudy. By the second day they were alot smoother and more precise. Its just electronics...shouldn't need to be broken in...but to hear is to believe. There are some things that physics can't explain yet. Thankfully...because it makes this hobby so interesting -Russ

[Arneson]

electrical engineering and psycho-acoustics as we know it.
Victor

Excellent summation.
Now that my chores are done, I've finished the Coffee, I'm onto Wine

[Victor]

Precisely. I just hooked up a new pair of speakers to a new amp with new interconnects and new speaker cables. The First day the sound was harsh and cloudy. By the second day they were alot smoother and more precise. Its just electronics...shouldn't need to be broken in...but to hear is to believe.

The speakers do need to play at least 50 hours or so before the drivers assume their designed properties. It is expected, - and what you experienced is perfectly normal. On the other hand, solid state electronics, such as power amplifiers do not need to play even 5 minutes to start working as advertised.

Unless you are using those huge Class A power amps, any sane amplifier will come to its temperature stability point within a minute or so and from that point on it will work just fine. This will remain so on the day you purchase that amps or 30 years later. Case in point I have a Marantz Model 16 Power amp that was bought in 1964 and it works the same today as it did then.

You see those pesky electrons do not care if they are hot or cold.

There are some things that physics can't explain yet. Thankfully...because it makes this hobby so interesting

I wonder if you would elaborate more on this, - what exactly that physics cannot explain?

I grant you that I cannot explain how the universe came about, however when it comes to audio related analog or digital electronics, physics can explain everything. I say it with a certain degree of certainty; after all, - one of my degrees is in Physics.

This might come as shock to you, but there has not been anything new in audio electronics in the past 30-40 years. What has happened so far is the refinement of the ideas that were pioneered back in 1960’s time frame. This is particularly true of linear power amps. It less true of digital audio, but still it holds to degree.

regards,
Victor

[whoaru99]

Victor, in general, I'm with you about the sound of amps. I applaud your efforts to explain things in a logical way but there is no possibility to convince anyone against their will.

I always find it interesting the incredibly sophisticated machinery and tasks that have been accomplished by mankind, but yet the "sound" of audio gear always seems exempt from the science/engineering that designed it in the first place.

[Russ L]

I wonder if you would elaborate more on this, - what exactly that physics cannot explain?
regards,
Victor

The new questions arising that Quantum mechanics can't explain. For example: How energy appears and disappears in this dimension. There are frontiers of knowledge in any field. Discoveries always lead to new questions.
My Master's degree isn't in physics like you but I've talked to those that do have physics degrees. Isn't it true that the behaviour of particles is unpredictable. Only probabilities or uncertainties. So to speculate- maybe there is a range of behaviour of energy particles within audio equipment that is unknown to post-modern physics? To speculate even further: maybe these subtle and unmeasurable(by today's technology) behaviours effect sound? Or there may be some other physical phenomena of which physics is unaware? Respectfully- Russ

[misterdoggy]

Victor,

So everything is hype.

No difference between any SS amplifiers of reasonable quality.

But there are audible differences I hear with different amplifiers.

The difference between your 1075 (which I have owned) and a Krell FPB400CX (which I have owned) wasn't subtle, but WOW........

Can you explain this then ?

Also I am pleased that someone with your education is on the group and appreciate your point of view. I would be happy to know what designs of yours we can buy ?

According to you then, the reality is that ALL makers of Amplifiers (SS) are selling the same product and what we should be looking for is price.

That nothing new has come to pass in Audio for the last 30-40 years. And you back up your beliefs with DIY everything.

I would like to say that although I have no training in physics, I do rely on my senses. If I see something I believe it, and if I hear something I believe it.

I'm not alone on this.

[wolfgang]

The difference between your 1075 (which I have owned) and a Krell FPB400CX (which I have owned) wasn't subtle, but WOW........

Can you explain this then ?

It has been explained to you a few times and in many ways, just that you refuse to accept it. It is understandable as we all like to believe what we have heard and experienced must be true. I don't see anyone could explain it to you any clearer unless you try all this level-matching-stuff for yourself at some point in the future.

[misterdoggy]

It has been explained to you a few times and in many ways, just that you refuse to accept it. It is understandable as we all like to believe what we have heard and experienced must be true. I don't see anyone could explain it to you any clearer unless you try all this level-matching-stuff for yourself at some point in the future.

Listen. There are 2 Camps of thought. An entire industry that you refuse to give any credit and think exists as a sham and hype for stupid and weak minded.

And Magazines, books, reviewers, personal experiences that argue the other point.

Billions of $$ and an industry built up on a sham.

So .......

If its all a sham and all Amplifiers are the same then why does someone like you participate in a group that discusses which amplifiers they like best, as you can say they are all the same and leave the arena ??

I mean why bother to be a part of an Audio Group, if its all a sham ??

[VictorHRS]

Slew rate, damping factor, transient response... There are many, many things that affect the sound of an amplifier on a objective base, mind you. 2 amps having absolutely the same gain and the same flat frequency response will most likely sound different because of design choices of the engineers. It is not voodoo, but it's not also homemade best performance.

I find this discussion very boring and this will be my only post here. Victor, I happen to know some very good electronics designers myself, and I know that an Accuphase, a Sphinx power amp is vastly superior design-wise than a Rotel or a receiver. And it will sound different on most occasions, specially on transient response and bass control. If you don't hear that, it can be proven objectively.

Regards,

Victor

[wolfgang]

I joint the forum because I like this hobby. Why do you join this forum then?

By the way, what is more interesting is why does it bother you so much if some of us claim we find almost all amps are actually very good. All we wanted to said is this really a wonderful time to enjoy this hobby as nowadays there are actually some really good amps available that are so good there is no need to spend silly money at least in this area to enjoy good music.

[misterdoggy]

I joint the forum because I like this hobby. Why do you join this forum then?

By the way, what is more interesting is why does it bother you so much if some of us claim we find almost all amps are actually very good. All we wanted to said is this really a wonderful time to enjoy this hobby as nowadays there are actually some really good amps available that are so good there is no need to spend silly money at least in this area to enjoy good music.

Wolfgang,

You're not making any sense perhaps its your english, but what I get out of it is that you said "there are actually some really good amps available" and "no need to spend silly money".

Well which is it: Are there good Amps or are all the amps the same ?

[wolfgang]

It seems you have real difficulty with your English indeed.

Let me ask again. Hopefully using simpler words this time. Why does it brother you so much when some people said you don't need to spend so much money in some hifi toys to enjoy your music?