Do Amplifiers Sound Different?

[ShadowZA]

He asks to be banned then reregisters using a different user name.

But guess what? It's the same IP
OrgName: RIPE Network Coordination Centre
OrgID: RIPE
Address: P.O. Box 10096
City: Amsterdam
StateProv:
PostalCode: 1001EB
Country: NL

Could it be that instead of Resting in Peace (RIP) ... he perceived this to mean Rise if Possible (RIP)? :lol:

[ShadowZA]

If you asked my wife, she has always thought there was never a difference in anything I have ever bought.

As long as our wonderful hobby is supported, there should be no worries. :T

My daughter (soon to be 8 years old) insists on a music listening session every evening. So we (as a family) spend some quality time in the evenings listening together. A healthy thing to do, imho, given this fast paced life in which we find ourselves.

[misterdoggy]

Its like Ahab and the White Whale ...."He rises again to beckon us........."

I actually feel sorry for Ade

He had poor "people skills" maybe due to cultural difference. Although he once said he was Welsh, and said he was from Norway, and his Computer IP address is Amsterdam, he might be just flotting in Cyberspace and needs our help to land.

Just having some fun Ade. I have run up against stone wall opposite ideas in HiFi since I've been interested.

[whoaru99]

We normally automatically refer to other variables besides hearing(eg. the visual info and the greater cost info etc.) to help us hear the difference.

These are exactly the influences that need to be removed to answer the question. :E

Should your eyes or your wallet decide if A or B sound different?

Should we assume red Corvettes are faster than blue Corvettes?

I think a lot of people don't want to know (or perhaps more correctly, to have strong and essentially irrefutable evidence). The industry certainly doesn't.

Keep this in context. I have not seen anyone post that ALL amps sound the same. Only that - oh heck, you guys know the context. If one chooses to pervert the context, it only goes to support the objectivist position.

[kurtholz]

Well, i think the problem with this thread, this past member, and a few others i see post from time to time, is they all have a common flavor

It's normally a new member, who alway's makes a strong point or statement that, if you spend more than they have on equipment, then you are stupid, that brand x, ( which is always a mid to low level brand) is better than all that exotic expensive equipment some of us choose to buy

it' insulting, i personally never insult someone else's purhase of a lower grade system, i have even gone out of my way to compliment other levels of equipment, when in fact, i consider it to be very lacking in most areas of performance

I think, a good point for someof the new members is, don't insult other members who can afford better, don't try and defend your purchase of a less expensive item , when in fact, as in anything, you pretty much do get what you pay for

i have never seen one post where an owner of a Halcro or Krell or some other high end product ridicules a rotel owner for wasting his money on such cheap equipment.

it's always the other way around

if you can't afford better , then at least don't bash the few of us that can,

go to a car show, see if the corvette owners bash the Ferrari guy's, sure Corvette's can be a great car, but, are they not in the same league as an Aston Martin, Masseratti, Ferrari etc

as our wise moderators always say,"be nice"

Kurt

[Kal Rubinson]

People definitely do have different hearing ability.

A concert Pianist like Horowitz, Rubinstein or Paderowski who were considered the greatest pianists of their day had not only trained ears, but brilliance in their hearing. For to play a note correctly, one must hear it first.

Mozart, Beethevon etc, you bet they had superior hearing ability.

No doubt there are differences in hearing ability but it has as much to do with listening as with hearing. Beethoven, for example, was nearly deaf late in life but I would guess that, from what music he could hear, he got more information than would the average normal individual. Compare them on traffic sounds and the average guy would be safer crossing the street.

Aptos Jeff-In response to post #188 yes our perceptions are very complex. Even the experts really don't have good models IMO to explain perception including the particular perception of sound, not to mention sight, smell etc.! And limited research to work with. For example,they have no clue how we perceive and experience pain!

Not no clue, please. We do know quite a bit but, as with much that goes beyond the border between current neurobiology into neuropsychology, our knowledge is woefully incomplete.

Kal (wearing his neuroscientist hat)

[misterdoggy]

Sorry Kal, I'll take Mozart

No doubt there are differences in hearing ability but it has as much to do with listening as with hearing. Beethoven, for example, was nearly deaf late in life but I would guess that, from what music he could hear, he got more information than would the average normal individual. Compare them on traffic sounds and the average guy would be safer crossing the street.
Kal (wearing his neuroscientist hat)

Kal,

You got me there. Beethoven was deaf, but he developed his listening skills when he was young and retained enough in his brilliant mind, to act out the notes to create some of the worlds masterpieces. Without listening to music when he was young, then, of course he would have no reference.

I would be safer with anyone else for crossing the street. Sadly, Beethoven could not hear works of music from other great composers of the day, but because he could read music, he could play it out in his mind.

If it was Mozart or Kal listening to which Amplifier had better sound, I'm sorry Kal, I probably would go with Mozarts' opinion, even if you are wearing your neurosurgeon cap .

[Kal Rubinson]

If it was Mozart or Kal listening to which Amplifier had better sound, I'm sorry Kal, I probably would go with Mozarts' opinion, even if you are wearing your neurosurgeon cap .

Oh yeah?!? I had him over last night and he played all the time instead of listening.

Kal

[misterdoggy]

Oh yeah?!? I had him over last night and he played all the time instead of listening.

Kal

Isn't that annoying, when you want to show off your system and someone just keeps playing on the piano !!

Well, 'He' won't be invited back......

[kurtholz]

you kids

if you would dump that mid -fi stuff and get a Krell amp, he would have listened longer

hahahahahahhaha

( that's a joke for all you non-jokester types)

:-)

Kurt

[AptosJeff]

wolfgang,

Well, I recently did a blind AB test with my wife; she has better ears than me. I was switching our VTL TT25 amps from triode to tetrode mode and she had no trouble telling the difference. She preferred triode, esp on Maria Callas.

You would think she would be the one spending more $$ on the stereo, not me. But then, she puts it in perspective with a comment like "Why do we have to have that ugly amp/speaker/cable (whatever) in our living room? Can't we have in-wall speakers ...". I then try to hide all the cables and promise to get a smaller amp, etc., etc.

[AptosJeff]

Kal & misterdoggie,

Great points on hearing, Mozart, etc. Some days my son plays Beethoven on the piano so long I don't even get a chance to turn on the stereo (they are in the same room). Am I complaining? Heck no!

Jeff

[wolfgang]

I did! :later:



...I did the "blind" test......

We concluded that the integrated amp was clearly not good. However, we were very mean to the integrated. It was obvious that the 35W RA932 will struggle and for this reason we gave it a good listen and found that it was a very very decent amp for what its expected to do. It also costs4x less than the pre/power combo. But price aside, the amplifiers controlled the speakers differenty and produced distinct different sound qualities.

Did the amps sound different. Yes, they did, but there was a hereditary "Rotel sound" if I can state it that way......

Great to hear that. After following this long thread I do wonder how many people esp those who appear to dislike 'blind' listening have actually ever tried it themselves. Were they simply jumping to conclusion without real personal experience?

I have never found listening with my ears alone to be a problem ever. In fact I find it it most enjoyable to listen in a darken room at night when the background noise in the city is lowest. All my friends even if they are not into hifi also seems to find this. Those who find it hard to form a mental picture of the 'stereo' projection find it much easier to imagine this once they listened with the lights turned off. I suspect when people see 2 little speakers in a room they can't imagine anything else other then that. Once the light was turn off our ears are free to build a mental picture of the sound illusion.

This is what is happen with blind comparison. Once I was not know the identity of the amps/speakers/cables I was comparing my ears were allowed to judge the finer details of the sound they made without any preconceive idea whether the items were suppose to be different/better/their real sonic attributes.

[wolfgang]

wolfgang,

Well, I recently did a blind AB test with my wife; she has better ears than me. I was switching our VTL TT25 amps from triode to tetrode mode and she had no trouble telling the difference. She preferred triode, esp on Maria Callas.

You would think she would be the one spending more $$ on the stereo, not me. But then, she puts it in perspective with a comment like "Why do we have to have that ugly amp/speaker/cable (whatever) in our living room? Can't we have in-wall speakers ...". I then try to hide all the cables and promise to get a smaller amp, etc., etc.

So there you go..... blind AB comparisons do works. As I have said above I also find it is most useful. Maybe essential now that I know there are so many things out there actually don't really make even a tiny bit of difference. Further more this is probably the 'purest' way to listen as some people says it is what our ears tell us that's important. Good thing is nowadays there are so many products available out there if the wife says the room deco is just as important we do have a choice to gears to keep everyone happy.

[misterdoggy]

Kal & misterdoggie,

Great points on hearing, Mozart, etc. Some days my son plays Beethoven on the piano so long I don't even get a chance to turn on the stereo (they are in the same room). Am I complaining? Heck no!

Jeff

Me too

I could have said the same statement ?

[Russ L]

.......then again I might be completely off track. Complex subject. :E I do go on :blah: How can you tell I just took a Research Methods course last term ops: ! -Russ

[whoaru99]

So there you go..... blind AB comparisons do works. As I have said above I also find it is most useful. Maybe essential now that I know there are so many things out there actually don't really make even a tiny bit of difference. Further more this is probably the 'purest' way to listen as some people says it is what our ears tell us that's important. Good thing is nowadays there are so many products available out there if the wife says the room deco is just as important we do have a choice to gears to keep everyone happy.

I was not sure what point was being illustrated. That blind tests work, or that all amps do not sound the same. Both, I guess.

I've not owned any tube amps so I can't really say if switching between those modes in a tube amp is germane to the discussion. If it is normal and expected to hear a difference, or if it significantly changes the amp characteristics (which I assume it does or why would there be a switch to do it?), then it's not particularly relevant, IMO.

[wolfgang]

As to the old double blind test nonesense. It simply doesn't work in audio. For many reasons.
1)Most of us are more influenced by what music is being played than we are how it sounds.
2)We absolutely hear music differently. For some it is either pleasant or unpleasant noise. For some, the bass beat is everything. Some see it as a math lanquage. Some it is pictures or colors in their head. Could you sit through a symphony and know that one of the violins is slightly off key? You can bet that many people would hear it immediatly and be very sidetracked by it.
3)The first two make subtle differences almost impossible to hear in unfamiliar surroundings with short listening periods.
4)We are influenced by our visable surroundings and other people in the room
5)Most people have short audio memory.
6)We are affected by our moods and time of day.

I don't believe any audio component can be consistantly picked out using a double blind test. And I'm not just talking about the front end. I think that speakers of similar design, played at the same level, would fare no better than cables under double blind testing.

If you used dbt as your criteria then I think that a ipod to a inexpensive receiver to the least expensive floorstanding speakers you can find would be what you would end up with. Each individual piece may have tied the most expensive similar component in a dbt but, you would really have to be musically deaf to think that the end mix of components could only be beat by the theory of "diminishing returns".

I was thinking about this (I have nothing against the person) just the suggestions raised but since I am new to this forum I and not really sure what would be consider a polite reply for most here ..... without being ban within the first day of joining.

There are also a few other views that appear very popular here. It also sound very much like just repeating suggestions from many popular views unique to editors of audiophile magazines. I just find very silly to be honest....... the views not the persons. Hmm...... ok ....... let me rephase that. Since this is not what I have found to be the case in my own experience I wonder if people really came to this conclusion after they have tried blind tests themselves.

[Bob]

Hey Wolfgang,
Welcome to the forum. I give you permission to throw rocks at my glass house all day long. Especially if you think that most people can consistantly hear the subtle difference in most components. Most people that feel DBT work well in audio present the arguement that no differences can be heard and therefore you should only make your purchasing decisions based on test numbers. It would be refreshing to hear from somebody that beleives that DBT readily demonstrates differences between components.

Could be that my list of 6 things only affects me. I do know sound men that spend all day listening on film sets that really can immediatly hear very small changes in sound. But, they have developed thier sense of hearing. Probably more accuratly, thier brains have become more accustomed to sorting out audio differences.

Like everybody in this hobby, I have made decisions on purchases based on listening and trying to compare. Somedays I find that I can easily and consistantly hear and identify differences. Somedays I don't think I would have a clue if I had to identify two components.

I do have two questions about DBT's. The first is, if they prove that listening isn't as important as numbers, then why would anyone reccomend them? Just to show that they don't work? If DBT's do consistantly work. How would you conduct them and who would want to go through such a boring process? I went through just a simple cable comparison with a couple of friends awhile back. We just went through simple cable swaps, not all the effort of DBT (we also had no dog in the fight and none of us knew anything about most of the cables we tested). Just this simple procedure was so tedious and boring I would pay extra for a component just to not have to sit through a DBT. But, that's me.

[jayhawk75]

[QUOTE=Russ L]I think that professionals would have more discerning ears and the test would be more useful (but a very limited marketing tool) that would have more significant results than a double blind test with a group selected from the general population. We normally automatically refer to other variables besides hearing(eg. the visual info and the greater cost info etc.) to help us hear the difference.

this should be "I hope that professionals....." have you ever noticed that with reading review after review from individuals that sometimes you make the choice to go in the oposite direction. for instance roger ebert gives 4 stars to a movie which puts the movie on a persons do not watch and do not buy. let's face it not all of us have access to all the different mfgr's of amplifiers so we are dependant on reviewers in narrowing the choice of purchase. you walk into a dealer and he offers x,y,z and you ask him what about "w". it may be an honest answer or it may be i dont carry it and these are better anyway. so you are back to the professional's reviews and the hope that the first answer isnt "what's your price range?, well then you will be happy with "a,b,c&d. do amplifiers sound different? yes are some amplifiers prettier than others? yes do some amplifiers have better repair history than others? yes do you have a dealer close enough by that handles that mfg amplifier? no

[whoaru99]

Bob,

I think DBT/ABX does both. It can either support or refute the claim, whichever the case may be.

Problem is, if it supports, I'll bet we'd hear lots of "See, I told you so."; if it refutes, I'll bet we'd hear lots of "Oh, that sort of testing really doesn't mean anything when it comes to audio.".

[AptosJeff]

whoaru99,

re my post #236, here is some explanation of triode and tetrode modes by Luke Manley, president of VTL: (I know many of you don't care about the idiosyncrasies of tube amps, but they are worth listening to, esp if you like music loud. If you do care, read on.)

" ...[Let me] offer some insight into our reasons behind providing the triode and tetrode modes, switchable at the back of all VTL amplifiers. We have found that triode mode is best suited for smaller ensembles during late-night (low level) listening sessions, giving that holographic, 3-D soundstage depth in the midrange, while the tetrode mode is de rigueur for large-scale symphonic pieces, where the higher resolution better details instrument location across the soundstage."

To me, the triode mode is less distorted and cleaner sounding on complex material, but the tetrode mode allows more power (45W vs. 25W is this case). I would say the difference at normal listening levels is subtle to me, but more pronounced to my wife. My point was that some people more easily hear differences in amps than others, even in blind testing.

A question for you, whoaru99. Do you really think all differences can be readily determined by blind testing? I really have trouble with that. Not because I don't want to believe the results, but because I don't think a brief, back and forth comparison test is adequate. It is a bit artificial and doesn't allow the whole experience of hearing the music.

Just my thoughts,
Jeff

[AptosJeff]

Perceptions

Hey Kal & Russ,

You two seem to have some knowledge of how we perceive things. I have studied this a (very) little and have some links to some of the better sources I've seen on how the brain works, esp consciousness and vision. I think it is amazing, and am sure some of it applies to hearing. Let me know, I know I'd like to see some of your sources. Anyone else, please jump in.

Thanks,
Jeff

[wolfgang]

Hey Wolfgang,
Welcome to the forum. I give you permission to throw rocks at my glass house all day long. ..............

I do have two questions about DBT's.

Thanks for the greeting. All I wish to do is stimulate a few more people into trying to listen with their ears only.

The first is, if they prove that listening isn't as important as numbers, then why would anyone reccomend them? Just to show that they don't work?

Listening blind is used when people really believe in listening. By that they suggest really listening with your ears and your ears only. DBT is just trying create an opportunity for yourself to listen carefully again with your ears without allowing another observer, well, annoying what you really wanted to do carefully.

The numbers you are refering are just a tool you could use to check for yourself ...... in ABX situation it is usually to see if you have actually heard something consistently. Also people may used it again as a tool to demonstrate to others that some one may have indeed heard something consistently listening using their ears only.

If DBT's do consistantly work. How would you conduct them and who would want to go through such a boring process?

It depends how serious you are with your hobby isn't it. Only you could decide how far you wanted to go to set up the ultimate listening room. Price of the gears are no guarantee they are better. If you really want a new amp/cables/speakers that sound better not just because it looks nicer and come with a famous brand name ........ we think you stand a better chance of finding one if you try to just listen with ears only. Not suggesting you are weak .... it is just the way our brains works. Forget those audiophile mag editors who try to suggest to you blind listening is a waste of time (notice some of them also contribute in this forum) it does.

If you do have difficulty hearing differences between 2 cables/amps for example, only you could decide what could be the reason. Was it because you need more time or do you accept your ears as tell is as it is really, there are probably no differences between that particular pair you are comparing.

Also if you start to play attention you should notice almost everyone else in lots of other fields use it nowadays as they recognised the usefulness of it as a tool. Revel the loudspeaker manufacturer believe in it some much they even make it as their single most powerful marketing edge. Look up their website.

[Alloroc]

you kids

if you would dump that mid -fi stuff and get a Krell amp, he would have listened longer

hahahahahahhaha

( that's a joke for all you non-jokester types)

:-)

Kurt

Well now, I just had a demo of the Krell Evolution pre/power mono combo and there was nothing funny about that! $140k of pure amplification glory.

Hooked up to a pair of Nolas and oh boy....

Could this be the greatest amplifier ever made?!

[misterdoggy]

Well now, I just had a demo of the Krell Evolution pre/power mono combo and there was nothing funny about that! $140k of pure amplification glory.

Hooked up to a pair of Nolas and oh boy....

Could this be the greatest amplifier ever made?!

Krell Evolution ;x( ;x( ;x( ;x( ;x( ;x( ;x(

They are sure beautiful looking. A bit over the top for my idea of investment in Stereo, but where does "over the top" begin and end. ?

[Aussie Geoff]

Could this be the greatest amplifier ever made?!

But surely it sounded the same as a $300 reciever, or would in any fair objective Double Blind Test... :P

Geoff

[Bob]

It seems that this thread stopped being about amps a long time ago. I'll start another thread where each of us can explain how we made our audio decisions. I am especially curious to hear from those that trust numbers over personal listening experiences.

[whoaru99]

whoaru99,

A question for you, whoaru99. Do you really think all differences can be readily determined by blind testing? I really have trouble with that. Not because I don't want to believe the results, but because I don't think a brief, back and forth comparison test is adequate. It is a bit artificial and doesn't allow the whole experience of hearing the music.

Just my thoughts,
Jeff

"All" is a pretty strong word, but for the SOUND of a component why wouldn't it?

So, I am answering yes. If there is a difference and you hear it seeing the object, then I think you should also be able to hear that difference not seeing the object.

I have often heard that blind people have much more acute hearing. Is it really because they have better hearing, or is it because they have honed their listening skills to a fine edge? Either way, they have not seen the object.

Who says the test has to be brief? Granted if you travel somewhere to do an audition, chances are you are not going to stay there for days or weeks or months on end. However, if you bring home gear to audition, certainly you have at least several days where you could attempt level-matched blind testing.

[whoaru99]

I am especially curious to hear from those that trust numbers over personal listening experiences.

Bob...is this a "derail the train" statement?

The only numbers of concern to me (with respect to this topic) are the numbers of people that would pass or fail DBT/ABX testing.

[Alloroc]

.....but where does "over the top" begin and end. ?

Hi,

Well now, isn't that the question to trump all questions!

I'm always reluctant to participate in these kinds of threads. My mother used to have an expression when we, as kids got too unruly. It went(or yelled!) like "It's all fun and games 'till someone looses an eye!"

I would at this stage like to offer the opinion that I thought the mods behaved quite appropriatly in this thread and one should not forget, imho, our participation on this forum is a privilege, not a right!

But back to the question. I've made the point before that it's all relative. If someone does not see, or hear the difference or value between a €300 amp and a €400 amp or whatver, well it's over the top to them, isn't it?!
I'm a huge believer in trusting your ears. Now this point may be a little contentious but it's meant with the best of intentions - I'm also not trying to be pretentious or patronise anyone....

The greatest skill you can develop as an audiophile is training and trusting your ears. It allows you to make the right decision when it comes to the investment in your equipment and setup. Asking me, the sales guy or anyone else to tell you what to buy is kind of a sign of insecurity in ones listening abilities. I do understand it though. Particularly when equipment can be so expensive. That's why I generally never ask 'Is amp X better than amp y?' On the flip side, I will offer the opinion that as I've heard x player and thought it sounded great to me when such a question is posted.

I trust my ears and I will always listen to other listeners experiences to paint an aural image on how the piece of equipment stacks up. And while I may never be able to afford the more exotic pieces of hifi out there, I love to see, hear and read all about them.

Man, if I had half a million burning a hole in my pocket and was on the market for a real swanky setup - I know exactly what I'd buy!

V.

[twitch54]

I too believe in the "trust your ears approach", the sad fact is unless your ears were properly trained, musically that is, with live orchestral concert venues, concerts, etc. or you are a sound engineer, you have nothing to from which to judge. Rock concerts in a Hockey arena do little to "train your ears". Truth is there are people that have "The Golden Ear"

[whoaru99]

Let me relate a personal story that really has sparked my interest in this sort of thing.

Not entirely too long ago, I picked up a number of "upper class" (well, at least to me) components. By no means would I say they are TOTL in any of their respective categories, but all are very well respected based on my research.

I did not buy all these things at once, but over the course of about a year; perhaps a bit longer.

One day after getting one of the pieces, while listening intently to one of my old favorites, Led Zeppelin / Led Zeppelin, on 2nd track "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You", I heard a number of things I had not heard before. Specifically, breath sounds and lip smack at 16-18 seconds in, and also a lip smack at 27-28 seconds in. There are others, but a couple examples illustrate the point.

So now I'm thinking, "WOW, this stuff IS that much better.", what detail!!

The only fly in the ointment is now that I know it's there, and just about exactly where they come in, I can hear these things quite easily on my old gear too where it had previously gone unnoticed. I can hear it on my computer at work through relatively cheap head phones and desktop speakers.

What is the most likely conclusion that I can draw?

In terms of detail (which is one of the most often stated improvements with "upscale" gear), is the upscale stuff in this example truly much more detailed, or just that I had not really been listening to the old gear or the music.

[wolfgang]

I am especially curious to hear from those that trust numbers over personal listening experiences.

What is this 'numbers' that you keep refering to?

[misterdoggy]

Not entirely too long ago, I picked up a number of "upper class" (well, at least to me) components. By no means would I say they are TOTL in any of their respective categories, but all are very well respected based on my research.

whoaru99,

Well its hard to respond without knowing what components ?

[misterdoggy]

Back to the point of this thread "Do all Amplifiers sound the same"

I will make it simple for everyone to grasp !!!!!!!

No, You get what you pay for. The more I paid, the better the sound.

Everything else being great quality and only changing the Amp.

The more I paid, the better the sound.

Its really simple.

Will the $50k Evolution sound better than the $1600 Rotel, It doesn't take a Rocket scientist to measure the difference. Anyone could see.

[whoaru99]

...You get what you pay for....

100% agree. However, whether or not it's worth what you pay is a matter of opinion.

[misterdoggy]

"worth" you are playing with words

Pay more = Get more

worth = relative to your means

[dorsai78664]

Someone brought up a car analogy and my thoughts go along these lines... (please remember this is only an opinion and not an expert one at that).

A Mustang GT performs about the same as a Ferrari when driven at 50 mph on a straightaway. I also believe that comparable amps and receivers will sound about the same if listened within the manufacturers specs and not pushed to any limits.

I am not a professional musician but have enjoyed playing the Sax in both classical and jazz groups so I trust my ears to a large degree. When I swapped out my low end Pioneer for a Sony ES, I could tell very little if any difference in sound. However, that was not the reason that I bought the Sony.

The limits of the Sony far exceeded my previous receiver. In addition, there were so many other features that made it extremely attractive. Features like clean power, multiple decoding formats, A and B speakers powered in parallel, customizable displays, numerous optical inputs, video switching, switching of audio and video sources separately, bass management, and...well, you get the point. I've had my ES for about 6 years and have loved every minute of it. Even not being able to hear a difference for "most" of my listening, I would not ever go back to anything close to my previous equiptment.

For most of my listening, I am in that "50 miles an hour on a straightaway" mode. It is below reference level and I am well within the limits of even a low end HTIB amplifier. However, there are times when I want to drive 75 mph without leaving 1st gear, times when I want the best 0 to 100 speed I can manage, and times I want to drive 150 mph. It is times like those that the Mustang (and low end audio equiptment) falls short. And that is when the Ferrari, Elites, Rotels, etc. really shine.

Again, this is my opinion but based on my limited experience, I am inclined to believe that sound quality shouldn't be a driving factor for my own purchases. Rather, performance at the extremes, quality of workmanship, features, and price and style are the drivers for me.

I may very well change my mind when I start seeing Rotel show up in my audio rack. For now, I'm keeping an open mind (and ears) but I don't hear what some say are extreme differences.

[whoaru99]

whoaru99,

Well its hard to respond without knowing what components ?

Generally I don't like to include the gear, because it tends to distract from the point and can be cannon fodder. However, in this case, curiosity to know your response has the better of me.

Proceed PRE-amp and Levinson No. 23 power amp...

[misterdoggy]

Generally I don't like to include the gear, because it tends to distract from the point and can be cannon fodder. However, in this case, curiosity to know your response has the better of me.

Proceed PRE-amp and Levinson No. 23 power amp...

Nice Stuff.....

Just wanted a point of reference for what you were saying

[misterdoggy]

Someone brought up a car analogy and my thoughts go along these lines...

A Mustang GT performs about the same as a Ferrari when driven at 50 mph on a straightaway.

This is not a good Analogy.

I have owned Ferraris: Daytona, 275GTB4, California Spyder, and more and have driven a Mustang and other nice cars.

Firstly, the ride in a Daytona has all the Charisma, Noise (12 Cylinders with 12 Weber Carburators) and hugs the road even at 50 like no car you could imagine.

But its not just about power in amplifiers. Once again and again and again......

Its the build quality that presents a different sound. Its not about drivinga Wall of Speakers for a Pink Floyd Concert, that power doesn't necessarily equate to listening quality with your home speakers.

[dorsai78664]

I do realize it is not all about power. But I do think this issue is a lot like politics. People will eventually have to convice themselves in one way or another. But I do think it is an interesting debate as long as people realize it is simply a debate and not life or death. :-)

[misterdoggy]

Dorsai

I saw you are a relatively new poster on the Forum.

Firstly, Let me say Welcome. Did you get your Welcome Banana ? :dancenana: If not here it is. Big Welcome !!

Some subjects get fierce responses, and are flashpoints or hotbeds of feeling strongly.

I only try to let a 'newbie' know my opinion. If I sound like I am preaching the gospel, then let me make it clear, I only voice my opinion.

There are those that would defend their positions as they are linked with their equipment and rationalizing. Like this is my "lot" in life and its fine.

Then there are those that know or think they know the difference and can be subjective.

I try only to speak of things I have experienced with either my system or systems I "know" well or I don't have anything to say.

Numbers, statistics, tests, experts, scientists, the President, Madonna or whoever, don't mean a thing to me, if it isn't something they've experienced personally.

If someone says they don't hear the difference, I listen and respect and believe them. I might not agree, but I have no choice.

Thats what forums are about I guess.

[dorsai78664]

Thanks for the welcome! And believe me, your post didn't come off wrong at all. It is just with the recent...err...flash of activity in this thread (may Ade rest in peace), I really wanted to make sure my comments were framed as an opinion.

I was pointed to this site when I was over in the AVS Forum mostly for the speaker building content. But I found this thead and enjoyed it. I've been what I consider an enthusiast for years but no where near expert when it comes to hi-fi equiptment and I honestly welcome all opinions. Especially when it comes to areas where I don't have personal experience or expertise (such as truly high end separates or fast cars).

I appreciate the welcome!