Do Amplifiers Sound Different?

[whoaru99]

Touché...

[David Meek]

But I guess if the board wants to favor one opinion over another that is OK, it is somebody else's forum so they have the final say in what positions get posted and supported.

MJ, just so we are clear here, I am not supporting one over the other. I have an opinion like everyone else, but it is just that - an opinion.

But I'm absolutely going to have courtesy - by Ade, you, and everyone else. This is not open for discussion, as I've said many times before.

[Kal Rubinson]

But I'm absolutely going to have courtesy - by Ade, you, and everyone else. This is not open for discussion, as I've said many times before.

Stop yelling! :nono:

Kal

[David Meek]

I really hope that was in jest.

[Aussie Geoff]

Colleagues,

There are no conspiracies, just someone who was being repeatedly discourteous and wouldn't stop... It's happened before and will happen again... Whatever peoples opinions are, we require courtesy to others in this forum.

We have all given way to much time to Ade and his behaviour. Please, let's get back to the main topic of the thread.

As my friend Azeke says "Peace and Blessings"...

Geoff

[Kal Rubinson]

I really hope that was in jest.

Of course.

Kal

[David Meek]

Whew. :B

[AptosJeff]

If I go back to some of the original ideas in this thread, there were several good points made by Ade and others. But I am a little surprised there is not more consensus that first, our perceptions when listening to music are very complex and not well understood, at least by most of us. That's ok, we don't have to understand everything, to appreciate it. And second, we don't all experience every aspect of music the same way and to the same degree. There is a broad range of skills and few of us have them all to the same degree, e.g. many musicians will hear things that many audiophiles do not and vice-versa (forgive the generalizing, we can be both of these things together).

If you accept these two points, it is difficult to believe that an amp or any component sounds the same to everyone. I do think many of us get carried away claiming our latest favorite whatever sounds so much better than whatever it replaced. And this often has to do with how much $ we are spending. But there are many instances of people hearing differences in amps, AB test or otherwise. Ade's insistence that the AB tests he refers to prove that no one can hear differences is pretty myopic to me.

A comment I made in another thread that seemed to set off Ade was about the need to listen, not just go by specs and popular opinion. Being a tube buff, I had surprised myself by greatly preferring a SS amp that was nothing like what I thought I was looking for. I concluded that you really do have to listen; even good quality amps are not the same, and you shortchange yourself if you keep a closed mind.

Sorry for the long post, but music is a great passion for most of us and this hobby can really enhance our enjoyment of it. We just have to listen!

[Aussie Geoff]

AprosJeff,

A comment I made in another thread ... was about the need to listen, not just go by specs and popular opinion. Being a tube buff, I had surprised myself by greatly preferring a SS amp that was nothing like what I thought I was looking for. I concluded that you really do have to listen; even good quality amps are not the same, and you shortchange yourself if you keep a closed mind.

Never a truer word spoken...

And thanks for bringing us back on topic :banana:

The best thing I ever did (and still do when I have time) is to take my own material (CDs DVDs etc) and do comparative listenning either in shops or (better still) my own home. When I can I'll rope in my family to help with their comments! Often the differences will surprise me, the cheaper product may sound better etc. or facinating differences in soundstaging.

Geoff

[misterdoggy]

I agree with you 100% , well said .

Like I said before it's the over the top remarks like "this Parasound sounds night and day better then that Rotel" that are just as guilty for fueling these wars . I find it even more absurd when remarks like that come from people who are listening to these amps either in two diffrent locations , or in a room that has so much reflected sound and room nodes that it would be close to impossible to pick up on the relatively small differences between amps.

Actually I am one that has had night a day differences switching Amps. It might not be the Amp, but the new combination of components that go well with the Amp. Since the Amp does not exist alone ie: cables, components, sources all play together and maybe have an influence.

However, if you said that the difference between the first level of Denon receiver against a top krell or Levinson it WOULD be night and day.

I like to judge Amps at low dbs, mainly because when I'm not alone, I play music lower, so I want performance and detail at low dbs. Believe it or not, it has been my experience that the more powerful amps reveal more detail at low dbs. This probably has nothing to do with the power available, but more to do with the build quality.

An interesting note. When I was going to buy my Mark Levinson 432 2 x 400 "A" Watts and asked the Top Stereo Store in France Station2001 what his "opinion" was of the sound of the Levinson against the Krell fpb400cx, he said, "It was about the same". When I asked my good buddy in Switzerland who switched and sold me the krell fpb400cx, then bought a pair of McIntosh 1201's what the difference was, he said, "It was about the same"

Why did he and I switch ? The thing that drove both he and I was we both were searching for a different look. I preferred the Look of the more modern Levinson's and it was the newest model and he preferred the look of the McIntosh with the Blue meters and all.

After the Levinson came, I felt it was more subtle, less bright than the krell and was happy there was some difference. Slight but some.

So my point is, at the top of the food chain, I think there is very little difference. But between a $1600 Amp and a $50000, only a moron would pay that kind of money if there was no difference. A company selling expensive Amps that don't deliver will quickly close its doors.

Recording Studios like Abbey Road use CAM 400's and 800D's for a reason !

[Sithlord]

This will be a day long remembered we've seen the end of Ade we will soon see the end of the rebellion. Now where have I heard something similar like that....hmmm

[misterdoggy]

This will be a day long remembered we've seen the end of Ade we will soon see the end of the rebellion. Now where have I heard something similar like that....hmmm

I'm sorry, but I have a couple of words about Ade. I feel that the moderator's acted appropriately when he asked to be removed. He was VERY AGGRESSIVE and armed with no experience and lots of quotations

He brought the worst type of information, second hand and preached as though it was the Gospel.

Why, he said, when he joined, in June, that he was "NEW TO THE AUDIOPHILE HOBBY", but fought relentlessly for points that he actually knew little about.

I like hearing from people with firsthand experiences ONLY. I respect everyone's opinion and right to speak, but I respect them more when they share their experiences or knowledge about something they actually know.

Be it a Harvard Physics Professor who explains why a cable shouldn't sound different, to the designer of the cable who explains why it should.

This is very first hand, but to quote others, ONLY, is very thin.

I will share my experiences with you all and whether or not I am deluding myself, its about my experience. Although, I do hope you find what I have to say interesting

So it was the right move...... :T

[NoHype]

This will be a day long remembered we've seen the end of Ade we will soon see the end of the rebellion. Now where have I heard something similar like that....hmmm

If your comment about the " new rebellion " was referring to me I would have to say your probably right , it's looking like i'll be a short timer here .

[MJKing]

Looks like I am in agreement with NoHype.

[wolfgang]

I feel a great disturbance in the Force. As if a voice suddenly cried out in terror, and was suddenly silenced.

You can't win. If you strike one of us down, we shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

[Aussie Geoff]

Nohype and MJKing,

Please stay with us, in the time you have both been here you have contributed well and made a range of informative posts on different topics...

We need you to defeat the evil alliance or the Dark Side may win....

Geoff

[wolfgang]

It seems we need to go back to the basic. Remember what Obi-wan (Ben) Kenobi said, Your eyes can deceive you; don't trust them.

[MJKing]

Geoff,

You were the one who banned ADE. I think reinstating him would go a long way towards showing a neutral forum position. You may not agree with him, I don't on most of his points either, but I think your action sent a clear message to people with alternate views. Although ADE's posts might have been unpopular, I don't think he deserved the fate you dished out. I can easily see myself ending up in the same position on some other topic.

[misterdoggy]

I see people have very strong feelings.

Does this attack the right to freedom of speech no matter what......

Too bad that Audiophile groups end up as Analogies to a Star Wars Film.

HTGuide has rules of courtesy, and everyone should be courteous, and if you get a warning about being repetitous then each one of us should "heed the warning" rather than relentlessly repeating and beating the point till its dead.

He did not listen to the warnings. If he would be willing to abide with a probation period, then I for one would not be against.

I think we all can be friendly and co-operative.

I have always taken the point of view that I respect what you believe, if you respect what I believe.

don't insult my intelligence though, by telling me I'm stupid and throwing away money for myths and blah blah

Make the point, say it and you've had your say like everyone else

That's reasonable isnt it ?

[Aussie Geoff]

MJKing,

Ade asked to be banned... The same way is open for him to come back...

When and if he is ready he will ask... It is only coureous to do so

Geoff

[Bob]

Art Dudley, in this months Stereophile, covers almost all aspects of this thread pretty well. Especially, the last two pages of this thread.

[Russ L]

The Veiled Insults of Ade

I apologize if I was provoking Ade by calling him to task on his self-proclaimed objectivity and his irrefutable double-blind test. But he would not back up his claims with the method required by science that he asserted was on his side, so he was just giving an opinion like anyone else. For those who forget his deftly veiled insults. Calling people "golden ears", elitist high end audiophiles, called misterdoggy's beliefs snake oil, me wierd and my audio beliefs "religion", called John Atkinson a fraud and implied audiophiles were trying to fool others about the value of equipment esp. amps so they could look down on them and steal their money ,etc,etc,and boring etc. These are not verbatim statements for the most part because he implied them or otherwise he would have been kicked long ago. i was direct with him because I don't like seeing valuable members of this forum insulted and whose contributions have increased my home theater experience and saved me from wasting a few dollars along the way. I knew he would react when i confronted him on his claim to fame, his unchallengeable "objectivity". But I don't like his stereotyping the members of this forum as elitist (when they don't agree with him) when there is a diversity of backgrounds and cost of HT setups that have been welcomed to the forum. But I apologize for pushing his "buttons" ops: I'm old enough to know better :roll: -Russ

[Objective]

Colleagues,

There are no conspiracies, just someone who was being repeatedly discourteous and wouldn't stop... It's happened before and will happen again... Whatever peoples opinions are, we require courtesy to others in this forum.

We have all given way to much time to Ade and his behaviour. Please, let's get back to the main topic of the thread.

As my friend Azeke says "Peace and Blessings"...

Geoff

This thread is interesting. So are the assumptions, misinterpretations and the bias that’s being shown here so however much you'd like to get back to the "main topic" it's a little difficult considering what's been said and done.

Let’s have a look at some of the points being made;

** Ade was being repetitive **
Ade made 29 posts in this thread – there were a total of 150 posts at the time of his banning. At *least* 10 of those posts were not directly related to “amps sounding the same” and at *least* 18 of those 29 posts were replies to people that had directed posts towards him.

So that’s over 100 subjectivist posts compared to 19 or less objectivist posts.

Let’s have a look at those posts –
1) (#10) Ade’s first post was a reply to BTB about how amps sound the same.
2) (#19) This was a reply to Eliav .
3) (#33) A reply to AptosJeff’s post that was directed at him and it included 3 neat links.
4) (#40) Another reply to AptosJeff (AJ had thanked Ade for the links), and Ade includes another interesting link that substantiates the subjectivists claim that we hear differently.
5) (#42) This was a reply to BTB who had directed a post to Ade. A little chit-chat there about opinions and listening to music.
6) (#43) A post directed at Geoff about splitting the thread off (this was just before it came out of the B&W forum I believe).
7) (#47) A reply to Russ L who had direct a post at Ade
8) (#48) A reply to Karma – a little talk about the way we hear and getting what you pay for.
9) (#59) A reply to Race Car Driver – RCD talked about comparing amps and Ade suggested he try leveling matching them for a true comparative analysis.
10) (#61) A post with an interesting link to a Stereo review test.
11) (#64) A reply to RCD again explaining that test tones are meant for calibrating not listening (some relatively polite head to head there on both sides for a moment).
12) (#69) A reply to Russ L asking how he level matched and some blurb substantiating his claims.

(#70) This is where Geoff “politely” warns Ade that he’s contributed enough and suggests he do some “comparative listening”, implying that Ade never has.

13) (#73) A reply to Geoff’s #70 post with an “OK he will shut up” and includes a link to an amp test challenge.
14) (#90) A reply to Russ L, Boombox, peter s and bigburner – lots of links and quotes.
15) (#99) A reply to dorsai78664 about the missing Stereo Review test.
16) (#102) Reply to pearsall001 about clipping and A/B testing distortion.
17) (#118) Reply to Sim reality
18) (#119) Reply to Russ L questioning and correcting his criticism of the blind test.
19) (#122) Reply to BTB’s post directed at him – some chit chat and talk of informed choices.
20) (#125) A reply to Sim reality’s post directed at him.
21) (#126) A post with an interesting Boston Audio Society link.
22) (#128) A reply to a question from RCD about what amps he used.
23) (#133) A reply to Sim reality’s post to him about perceptions.
24) (#135) Another reply to Sim reality with a link to some research on hearing.
25) (#138) A reply to pearsall001
26) (#140) A reply to a pearsall001 post that was directed at him.
27) (#142) Another reply to pearsall001

#143 Geoff steps in and says that Ade was being rude.
#144 David steps in and threatens to ban Ade.

28) #147 Ade apologizes for inadvertently offending anyone but says that it wasn’t intended.

#148 Geoff makes some claims.

29) (#150) Ade says he’ll not contribute any more and that if Geoff wishes he can ban or delete the account.


** Ade was rude and insulting **

Up until post #52 no one seemed to have any issues, David Meek even said in that post, “Okay gang, things have stayed reasonably civil in this thread to this point (which is somewhat surprising considering the topic) so let's keep it that way.”

1) In post #64 Ade responds to a post directed at him by Race Car Driver; yes, just a little bitchy perhaps but so is the post by RCD.
2) In post #141 pearsall001 stated “This is the hardest part for you to grasp” which was directed at Ade.
Ade replies in post #142 with “What’s hard to grasp about that?” and gets chewed out by Geoff David for having a “rude tone”.

That’s all I can find I’m afraid. Maybe some people here are projecting their own emotions onto the posts or perhaps someone can point out exactly where these terribly rude posts are that deserve the treatment he’s had? Maybe this forum requires a sickly sweet etiquette and anything else is deemed to be rude?


** Grand Finale **
Let’s look at Geoff’s closing post #148 where he makes all those convincing sounding claims;

1) He says to Ade, “You would appear to make a hobby of going from forum to forum, starting a thread like this and seeing how much you can stir people up. Some people like knocking letterboxes down with baseball bats too, or pulling wings off butterflies...”
This is based on an earlier post by Ade where he says he enjoys this type of discussion, and that he’s discussed the topic on many forums.
Geoff seems to think there’s something wrong with enjoying a debate of contentious topics – that’s a little strange coming form a discussion forum administrator particularly as it’s not unusual for these type of threads to get the highest number of participants and viewings.

2) He then goes on to say, “you state or imply that they are deluding themselves and refer endlessly to the same few double blind trials.”
Geoff is implying that Ade was insulting people by these implications when in fact Geoff is ignoring the reams of psychology research about perceptual bias – self delusion is the name of the game when it comes to being human I’m afraid and righteous indignation and ignorance will not make it go away no matter how much you want it to. Also, I counted at least 4 DBT that were referred to by Ade along with numerous links to other supporting evidence and *no* supporting evidence to the contrary from the subjectivists besides personal listening (repeated over and over I might add), and one peculiar article from a guy that wanted clipping distortion to be included in DB tests.

3) Here is a good one; “Indeed, I've scrolled through every post you have made on the HTGuide and they all almost seem to be on the same three broad topics.”
As I stated earlier, a lot of posts by Ade in this thread were not about amps or even cables – I’ve browsed some others too and there are many that aren’t related to amps, cables or speaker burn in as Geoff claims.

4) “Please, unless you have something new to say, don't waste our time saying it over and over. Also, try not to find every thread requesting information about amplifier / speaker combinations and use it as a forum for drumming the "don't waste your money all amplifiers sound the same" story (and similarly those on cables), to try and start the argument (and your entertainment) going again.” Strange but I haven’t seen any rules about posting “repetitive” views; does this mean that when people repeatedly post that certain amps sound bright or have tight bass they are in breech of the rules? Why is it that subjectivists are free to be as repetitive as they please? Why is it that several people posting a hundred or so posts basically saying the same thing is not objectionable whereas one person posting ten or so, is? And why, pray tell, are subjectivists free to advise those asking for advice on amplifiers but not objectivists?


To sum up; until the administrators intervened this was one of the most polite and refrained debates of its type that I’ve seen. There is, without a doubt, many unfounded accusations and criticisms aimed at Ade the worse of which are from the administrators and they should know better than to allow their personal biases to impact on their (supposedly objective) administration duties.

I’ve also seen the other “debate” in the B&W forum (“Speakers sound different”) and that was even more polite until Geoff’s heavy handed interruption.

Maybe the people here have forgotten that a forum and its administrators are nothing without the contributions of its members and that without diverse and sometimes contentious opinions a forum will either stagnate or become a mutual appreciation society.

[whoaru99]

Quote:

"But he would not back up his claims with the method required by science that he asserted was on his side, so he was just giving an opinion like anyone else."



Perhaps, but one of the key points to the neverending cycle is the argument that X number of DBT/ABX tests really don't mean anything because there is always a chance that somebody, somewhere, who was not tested could hear a difference.

It's exactly the "Bigfoot" scenario mentioned earlier in the thread.

It's a great attribute to hold on to hope and belief, but is there any point at which there would be enough failed tests to be convincing evidence?

Many with opposing points of view to Ade are as equally as firm in their convictions and yet have even less "scientific method" evidence that Ade linked to.

Sometimes when you are but one voice in a sea of many, you have to "speak louder" to be heard.

[pearsall001]

Wow!!!! You're on board for less than 24 hrs. & you gathered all that information. I take it you don't work?

[MJKing]

Objective,

Excellent post. Matches what I observed but did not summarize in detail or put into words nearly as well.

[misterdoggy]

I still would like to know how Ade said he was new to the hobby in June when he joined his own words.

then all of a sudden he is quoting urls with information.

I still think the best information is real feedback from real life experiences of the members points of view with their equipment.

The rest is a bunch of bunk.

ps- I think Objective is Ade come back from the dead

[Race Car Driver]

Wow!!!! You're on board for less than 24 hrs. & you gathered all that information. I take it you don't work?

Either that or hes Ade...... IP Check anyone!?

Misterdoggy, couldnt have agree more.

[Russ L]

I would agree. Only he would go to that much trouble to defend Ade! :E -Russ

[Russ L]

Race Car Driver- If he has a Mac like me I believe they have continually changing IP Altho I'm not a computer expert. Could explain the problem. -Russ

[ThomasW]

He asks to be banned then reregisters using a different user name.

But guess what? It's the same IP
OrgName: RIPE Network Coordination Centre
OrgID: RIPE
Address: P.O. Box 10096
City: Amsterdam
StateProv:
PostalCode: 1001EB
Country: NL

[Race Car Driver]

He asks to be banned then reregisters using a different user name

But guess what? It's the same IP
OrgName: RIPE Network Coordination Centre
OrgID: RIPE
Address: P.O. Box 10096
City: Amsterdam
StateProv:
PostalCode: 1001EB
Country: NL

Hahaha, this right here just made the whole thread worth it.

[MJKing]

I am amazed. Most here only want to hear one side of a discussion. You cannot even look in the mirror see your own actions clearly and consider somebody else's point of view. The other person has to bad and insulting if they don't agree.

Please ban me also, I have seen enough and have no interest in offering my potentially different opinions and experiences.

I have never been banned from a forum before, it is kinda cool.

[NoHype]

I have nothing to lose hear so i'm going to give my opinion on what some things I see that are in play here .

From what i've seen in the few days hanging out here is that you have a good amount of people here who consider themselves "Audiophiles" . This group of people tend to get upset pretty easy when you chalange the idea that just throwing a ton of money into your audio system will not bring the big gaines they claim .

I've given some very good advice to a few people on this forum and have got almost no respect or sighn that my posts where even worth reading . I made the mistake of thinking that people wanted real answers and help with their issues , when all they really wanted was a reason buy one more over priced piece of equipment .

I'm only still here because I did'nt want to jump the gun and consider this place to be just one forum that is full disrespectful members , after all I have not been here all that long to speak with many of you. It's become clear that pretty the only thing I can learn here is how to be rude to other members and also how buy high dollar gear but yet not really gain much .

I'll stick with the forum I've called home for the last 4 years and 6,000 posts , where all new members are not only welcomed but they are shown respect, and check this out, we even say "Hi welcome to the forum" .

[dyazdani]

I'll stick with the forum I've called home for the last 4 years and 6,000 posts , where all new members are not only welcomed but they are shown respect, and check this out, we even say "Hi welcome to the forum" .

Why don't you stick around? I challenge a topic such as this to run smoothly on any forum. Most here are very friendly and helpful, including the moderators. When people post somewhat rude comments or "you're ignorant because you disagree" type of posts, we politely ask them to remain objective and courteous to other members. When that doesn't happen, we ban the offending party - why tolerate rude people who don't play nice?

I am not an advocate of forcing people to think a certain way, no matter if backed up by scientific measurements or whatever. We exchange bits of information and in the end, the poster has to decide for him/herself.

Check out some of the other threads that aren't so controversial. :T

[Race Car Driver]

I am amazed. Most here only want to hear one side of a discussion. You cannot even look in the mirror see your own actions clearly and consider somebody else's point of view. The other person has to bad and insulting if they don't agree.

Please ban me also, I have seen enough and have no interest in offering my potentially different opinions and experiences.

I have never been banned from a forum before, it is kinda cool.

What dont you understand? I/"we" dont have an issue with differing opinions.
We have an issue with repetitive contradiction. Ade said the same thing over and over.... and over We got it.... the first 10 posts!

Misterdoggy made some very good suggestions and call outs about Ade.

He asked to be banned and so be it. Then he comes back with a re registered name (obvious by the way) and makes a lame defense post.

Now your doing the same, well good for you.
I dont have an issue with people and different opinions. (im sure others agree)

So by all means, stick around, speak your mind and move on. Just dont feel the need to cram your beliefs down everyone elses throat. Thats where Ade went wrong.

And with that, im done with this topic, it has run its course for me.

[AptosJeff]

Your turn, objectivists ...

Not trying to provoke anyone, just looking for feedback. Any thoughts on my post from yesterday, #188? I really don't think people hear the same things when they listen.

[whoaru99]

Not trying to provoke anyone, just looking for feedback. Any thoughts on my post from yesterday, #188? I really don't think people hear the same things when they listen.

Well, I agree people hear and listen differently, but I think that angle is somewhat just a way to muddy the waters.

I'll be pretty bold and say that when anyone who is really into audio gets a new piece of gear they listen very differently, regardless of how well or how poorly they hear.

What's your opinion as to how much of the "improvement" from new gear comes from listening, as opposed to hearing?

I'd bet many of us are rather complacent when listening to that same old amp that has been in the rack for the last "x" number of years. Now, we have this shiny new amp and listen to it very critically. Amazingly, we hear new detail. How many bother to reconnect the old amp and listen with the same super critical ear, or just assume that you know the amp and listen to it with the same old complacent attitude?

[AptosJeff]

Good point - I agree that people may listen differently when they get new gear. And as I've said, we often exaggerate what we hear when we make a change to our system.

But one of my points in this discussion is that we often hear something that someone else doesn't. Not trying to muddy the water, but emphasize that just because one person doesn't hear a difference, doesn't mean someone else can't hear it either. I think it isn't so much our ears, but more how we've learned to perceive sound, and music in particular. For example, I say that someone who doesn't appreciate a certain type of music, actually hears it differently than someone who does like it.

Someone gave a good language example of this earlier in the thread. It was along the lines of people not familiar with a particular language could not tell the difference between two similar sounding phonemes, but those who spoke the language had no trouble. I don't think you would measure this difference with a typical hearing test. Yet it is certainly there.

From this reasoning, I think it is difficult to generalize that no one hears differences in amps, just because most people don't, or because we havn't measured that difference.

To summarize, I say that many of us do hear differences in amps, even quite good ones, which are not clipping. Those of you who don't: get over it. And most of us do exaggerate what we think we hear sometimes, esp to make a point that such-and-such is better or worse than so-and-so. So those of us who do this: tone it down a bit - it's not very believable to many.

[wolfgang]

If I may come in at this point, AptosJeff. Did you ever tried comparing your hifi amps using your ears alone? It does not have to be a very strict blind identification type test using an ABX comparator but even a fun simplified version like asks some one else to switch 2 things around allowing yourself to listen by ears alone without knowing which is what? I asked because many people here seem to claimed they believe people should have really first hand experience of what they are discussing. As far as I know this type technique have been used by profesional audio engineers and certain audio companies famously like Revel in developing they loudspeakers using very formal blind comparisons for decades. So why do so many audiophiles have such a phobia with it?

[misterdoggy]

Some Ears are better than others (opinion)

People definitely do have different hearing ability.

A concert Pianist like Horowitz, Rubinstein or Paderowski who were considered the greatest pianists of their day had not only trained ears, but brilliance in their hearing. For to play a note correctly, one must hear it first.

Mozart, Beethevon etc, you bet they had superior hearing ability.

Could Mozart hear the difference between a $1600 Rotel and $12k Krell? I'm betting that he could.

So to answer the question do we hear differently.

My son who is studying to be a concert pianist and I, hears the same piece played. I hum it right after, but my music memory has some faults and I can't really get it right. The he hums it EXACTLY as it was played to us. Hmmmmmmm

He plays piano many hours a day. So he has "trained ears" and maybe more hearing ability more than someone who just listens to his stereo in the evening.

I would have to go with the opinion of a good hifi shop, where they sell Classe, Krell, Levinson, Rotel etc. and if the fellow was listening and comparing all day long different combinations as someone who lives with the equipment as being knowlegeable.

[Boombox]

If I may come in at this point, AptosJeff. Did you ever tried comparing your hifi amps using your ears alone? It does not have to be a very strict blind identification type test using an ABX comparator but even a fun simplified version like asks some one else to switch 2 things around allowing yourself to listen by ears alone without knowing which is what?

I did! :later:

Both amps sounded very, very groovy :dancenana:

Ok, so what were they. I have the Rotel RC1070/RB1070 (130W) combo and an old Rotel RA932 (35W) integrated driving a pair of 93dB 200W speakers (Boston Acoustics), same disc-spinner used. Clearly, to the untrained ear there seem to be no difference at +/- 85-90dB SPL. But, that was the initial test. After the ears were given 1/2 hour to recover, some cotton buds to clean them and another 1/2 hour, for some more rest, I did the "blind" test. We put both amplifiers at the 9 o'clock position. Clearly the 35W amp generated less SPL at our seating position, so we turned it up to approx. 10 o'clock position.

Detour: This is where the whole "scientific testing" falls out the window. Its completely subject and to complicate matters, the subjects are humans....

Anyway, the RC/RB combo @ 9 o'clock and the RA @ 10 o'clock seemed to generate the "same" SPL. We had to take a break again for the ears to rest. When we started the sound up again, we were not sure if we were to begin with the pre/power combo first or the integrated amp. We took the integrated first. Highs were good, bass fantastic and mid-range well detailed. Good stereo imaging and very attractive dynamic range that the amp produced.

We took another break....to swop cables.....1-2min; with the pre/power combo it was immediately apparent. The bass was much tighter and 3 fold more controlled. Also, the bass definition was clearly much, much better. We swopped cables again and listened to the integrated again and found that this time the bass "sounded" muddy....wobbly.....I'm not saying here it sounded bad, just poorly controlled. Switching to the pre/power again we noticed that the highs seemed "richer".......listening again to the integrated, the highs seemed to fade when the bass notes played....maybe I should not say when bass notes played, rather when the impedance seemed to drop.

We concluded that the integrated amp was clearly not good. However, we were very mean to the integrated. It was obvious that the 35W RA932 will struggle and for this reason we gave it a good listen and found that it was a very very decent amp for what its expected to do. It also costs4x less than the pre/power combo. But price aside, the amplifiers controlled the speakers differenty and produced distinct different sound qualities.

Did the amps sound different. Yes, they did, but there was a hereditary "Rotel sound" if I can state it that way. Both Rotels sounded very "trebly or forward and somewhat flat". This, I think is where one can cleary hear that one brand of amplifier sounds different than another. I partculalry don't like the sound of the Denons for example, which (to my ears) sound more bassy than the Rotels....



As for Objective a.k.a. Ade.......:rofl:.....I think we all know it was you.....good stuff....... :B

[Russ L]

But I am a little surprised there is not more consensus that first, our perceptions when listening to music are very complex and not well understood, at least by most of us. That's ok, we don't have to understand everything, to appreciate it. And second, we don't all experience every aspect of music the same way and to the same degree. There is a broad range of skills and few of us have them all to the same degree, e.g. many musicians will hear things that many audiophiles do not and vice-versa (forgive the generalizing, we can be both of these things together).

If you accept these two points, it is difficult to believe that an amp or any component sounds the same to everyone.Ade's insistence that the AB tests he refers to prove that no one can hear differences is pretty myopic to me.

We just have to listen!

Aptos Jeff-In response to post #188 yes our perceptions are very complex. Even the experts really don't have good models IMO to explain perception including the particular perception of sound, not to mention sight, smell etc.! And limited research to work with. For example,they have no clue how we perceive and experience pain!
As to your second point. Yes our listening abilities are very different. I have heard many different sound systems and music due to my broadcasting career in my 20s. My boys aged 12 and 19 think the sound on my Rotel and B&Ws is only slightly better than the sound on our Harmon Kardon speakers and sub on our Mac! They really can't understand why i am so blown away by Rotel and B&Ws h: I completely agree with you, our understanding of listening is very limited. A mystery but a very interesting one, as the number of responses to this thread show! :E So it does indeed (as most others have agreed) come down to personal preference, :T -Russ

[Russ L]

The Inherent Fault of the Double Blind Amplifier Tests

If I may come in at this point, AptosJeff. Did you ever tried comparing your hifi amps using your ears alone? It does not have to be a very strict blind identification type test using an ABX comparator but even a fun simplified version like asks some one else to switch 2 things around allowing yourself to listen by ears alone without knowing which is what? I asked because many people here seem to claimed they believe people should have really first hand experience of what they are discussing. As far as I know this type technique have been used by profesional audio engineers and certain audio companies famously like Revel in developing they loudspeakers using very formal blind comparisons for decades. So why do so many audiophiles have such a phobia with it?

I think that professionals would have more discerning ears and the test would be more useful (but a very limited marketing tool) that would have more significant results than a double blind test with a group selected from the general population. In such a case, it would be difficult to get a result that showed significant differences between amps due to the differences in listening abilities as Aptos Jeff has suggested. The double-blind test also fails because it is not a real world test. When those from the general population, and even the experts, listen to amps that are only slightly different or even with larger differences in sound they would have a great deal of difficulty hearing the difference under blind conditions(that is in isolating one variable, sound, from all others) because humans don't listen that way. We have evolved (over millions of years?!) to hear with the help of many other variables especially when faced with a difficult hearing task like hearing the difference between a Marantz receiver and the next one up in Quality. We normally automatically refer to other variables besides hearing(eg. the visual info and the greater cost info etc.) to help us hear the difference. It is unnatural and not a real world condition to just hear sound in isolation. So the result is predetermined to come out as no difference just 50-50 guessing 8O and does not demonstrate that the amps sound the same.
So I don't have a phobia with the test I just see it being used by others(not yourself) to justify saying there is no difference in amps beyond a certain price range and (in the extreme viewpoint) that it is a scam by the audio industry. -Russ

[misterdoggy]

If you got the 5 most famous conductors in the world to sit and listen, I would believe their listening ability.

If you asked my wife, she has always thought there was never a difference in anything I have ever bought.

In fact I am waiting for an update on the Preamplifier which permits it to come on automatically when you chose HT after and only after listening to the Stereo Channel. So sometimes she watches HT and the front left and right speakers aren't even on and she doesn't notice.

So much for opinions from the peanut gallery.

I will tell you this. I listen to a piece of music over and over and I love certain classical piano pieces.

But even after listening to a piece hundreds of times I can't whistle the tune of the third or fourth line.

My son listens to it one time and he can play the 3rd and 4th line perfectly note for note.