Do Amplifiers Sound Different?

[whoaru99]

And where did you see that the blind test "did show that some amps do sound significantly different"? This is only the case when amps start to distort when driven harder than they should be.

I do agree that amps can sound different, but with context to this debate, I assume people are being somewhat reasonable and center the discussion on amps that essentially represent the "straight wire with gain"; not some amp with obviously skewed frequency response. Or don't throw in an amp that is designed so bad that it can't deal with anything but an ideal speaker load.

[pearsall001]

This is also a good read. The fellows name is Rod Elliott & he has a slew of interesting articles besides this one. Google his name for more info.

The Components of Sound

When people talk about the sound of an amplifier, there are many different terms used. For a typical (high quality) amplifier, the sound may be described as "smeared", or having "air" or "authoritative" bass. These terms - although describing a listener's experience - have no direct meaning in electrical terms.

Electrically, we can discuss distortion, phase shift, current capability, slew rate and a myriad of other known phenomena. I don't have any real idea as to how we can directly link these to the common terms used by reviewers and listeners.

Some writers have claimed that all amplifiers actually sound the same, and to some extent (comparing apples with apples) this is "proven" in double-blind listening tests. I am a great believer in this technique, but there are some differences that cannot be readily explained. An amp that is deemed "identical" to another in a test situation, may sound completely different in a normal listening environment. It is these differences that are the hardest to deal with, since we do not always measure some of the things that can have a big influence on the sound.

For example; It is rare that testing is done on an amplifier's clipping performance - how the amp recovers from a brief transient overload. I have stated elsewhere that a hi-fi amplifier should never clip in normal usage - nice try, but it IS going to happen, and often is more common than we might think. Use a good clipping indicator on the amp, and this can be eliminated, but at what cost? It might be necessary to reduce the volume (and SPL) to a level that is much lower than you are used to, to eliminate a problem that you were unaware existed.

Different amplifiers react in different ways to these momentary overloads, where their overall performance is otherwise almost identical. I have tested IC power amps, and was dismayed by the overload recovery waveform. My faithful old 60W design measures about the same as the IC in some areas, a little better in some, a little worse in others (as one would expect).

Were these two amps compared in a double blind test (avoiding clipping), it is probable that no-one would be able to tell the difference. Advance the level so that transients started clipping, and a fence post would be able to hear the difference between them. What terms would describe the sound? I have no idea. The sound might be "smeared" due to the loss of detail during the recovery time of the IC amp. Imaging might suffer as well, since much of the signal that provides directional cues would be lost for periods of time.

As you can see this on going argument is not so cut & dry as you and others might want us to believe. Post back when you find a real world ABX amp listening test that includes clipping levels as Rod suggests for a fair comparison. Make sure a couple of fence posts are included as listeners. I personally think along these lines. The other articles that found that "All amps sound the same" were pretty much set up not to fail. In other words don't dare push the darlings too hard. Come on, even as Rod mentions they do clip under normal use. In the real listening world an amp is called upon to perform outside it's safe zone. Maybe the test results should read something like this. When amps A & B are driven within their published specs (non real world) for lack of a better word - "babied" nobody can hear the difference. When amps A & B were driven under real world listening conditions everybody could hear the difference. Now everybody should be happy.

[Ade]

For example; It is rare that testing is done on an amplifier's clipping performance - how the amp recovers from a brief transient overload. I have stated elsewhere that a hi-fi amplifier should never clip in normal usage...

Different amplifiers react in different ways to these momentary overloads, where their overall performance is otherwise almost identical. I have tested IC power amps, and was dismayed by the overload recovery waveform. My faithful old 60W design measures about the same as the IC in some areas, a little better in some, a little worse in others (as one would expect).

This I agree with and the "amps sound the same" crowd do not deny that either.

nice try, but it IS going to happen, and often is more common than we might think. Use a good clipping indicator on the amp, and this can be eliminated, but at what cost? It might be necessary to reduce the volume (and SPL) to a level that is much lower than you are used to, to eliminate a problem that you were unaware existed.

But this I don't agree with.

The ideal is to never clip - why on earth spend 1000's on a system that will distort? I don't really care if it politely distorts, it will still sound fairly crap compared to what it should. Right?

If an amp clips it's time to buy a more powerful amp, new more sensitive/easier to drive speakers or to turn the volume down. Increasing the clipping limit is one of the main reasons to buy a more expensive amp – but of course if you have sensitive speakers that you don’t play too loud then you don’t need to spend that money as you won’t gain much at all except bragging rights.

[pearsall001]

This I agree with and the "amps sound the same" crowd do not deny that either.


But this I don't agree with.

The ideal is to never clip - why on earth spend 1000's on a system that will distort? I don't really care if it politely distorts, it will still sound fairly crap compared to what it should. Right?

If an amp clips it's time to buy a more powerful amp, new more sensitive/easier to drive speakers or to turn the volume down. Increasing the clipping limit is one of the main reasons to buy a more expensive amp – but of course if you have sensitive speakers that you don’t play too loud then you don’t need to spend that money as you won’t gain much at all except bragging rights.

Can't have it both ways. In the real listening world a $200 all in one receiver will sound just fine when babied. Just like people said they couldn't hear the difference between it & the ultra expensive Flutterman amp. Notice how the test is very limiting on how the amps are allowed to perform. What a bunch of hooey. Even the ultra expensive amps wiil clip under transient loads, then there's recovery time involved to. It's gonna happen whether you like it or not. This is where the difference lies in sound quality. Stop harping on "all amps sound the same" when in fact they don't. Only under ideal conditions they do but that's not how an amp or receiver is used in everyday use. Test them the way we use them. And please don't tell me to buy other speakers or get a more powerfull amp, because it will still happen.

[Ade]

Can't have it both ways. In the real listening world a $200 all in one receiver will sound just fine when babied. Just like people said they couldn't hear the difference between it & the ultra expensive Flutterman amp. Notice how the test is very limiting on how the amps are allowed to perform. What a bunch of hooey. Even the ultra expensive amps wiil clip under transient loads, then there's recovery time involved to. It's gonna happen whether you like it or not. This is where the difference lies in sound quality. Stop harping on "all amps sound the same" when in fact they don't. Only under ideal conditions they do but that's not how an amp or receiver is used in everyday use. Test them the way we use them. And please don't tell me to buy other speakers or get a more powerfull amp, because it will still happen.

Actually that's not true.

Amplifiers have a very predicable behavior when given a specific load and if you buy an amp with insufficient power to meet your speaker/listening requirements it will clip for sure, if you buy an amp with enough power, it won't.

Clipping only occurs when an amplifier does not have enough power to drive a speaker at a specific level. It's not something that just "happens" arbitrarily.

BTW, how was the test "very limiting"? You mean that they were level matched and set so the weakest wasn’t being pushed into clipping? You mean like I do under normal listening conditions so I don't have to hear distortion? How is this "very limiting"? Or do you like listening to distorted music in which case you should buy under powered amps all the time.

BTW some expensive amps will clip because they aren't that powerful - what you're actually paying for is probably snake oil and bragging rights.

[pearsall001]

I take it you skipped over these parts.

Some writers have claimed that all amplifiers actually sound the same, and to some extent (comparing apples with apples) this is "proven" in double-blind listening tests. I am a great believer in this technique, but there are some differences that cannot be readily explained. An amp that is deemed "identical" to another in a test situation, may sound completely different in a normal listening environment. It is these differences that are the hardest to deal with, since we do not always measure some of the things that can have a big influence on the sound.

For example; It is rare that testing is done on an amplifier's clipping performance - how the amp recovers from a brief transient overload. I have stated elsewhere that a hi-fi amplifier should never clip in normal usage - nice try, but it IS going to happen, and often is more common than we might think. Use a good clipping indicator on the amp, and this can be eliminated, but at what cost? It might be necessary to reduce the volume (and SPL) to a level that is much lower than you are used to, to eliminate a problem that you were unaware existed.

This part in particular, read again:

An amp that is deemed "identical" to another in a test situation, may sound completely different in a normal listening environment. It is these differences that are the hardest to deal with, since we do not always measure some of the things that can have a big influence on the sound.

This is the hardest part for you to grasp. When guys say that amps sound different in their home, in their systems this is exactly what they are referring to. Some things just go beyond the measurable specs & cookie cutter listening tests.

[Ade]

I take it you skipped over these parts.

Um, no, in fact I'd seen that article a while before you posted it.

This is the hardest part for you to grasp. When guys say that amps sound different in their home, in their systems this is exactly what they are referring to. Some things just go beyond the measurable specs & cookie cutter listening tests.

I suppose you didn't bother to read one of my links of a blind test in an audiophiles own home, using his equipment and music? The only difference was that he, his wife and a friend were asked to point out when his (£12,000) amps were playing and a cheap receiver and none of them could.
What's hard to grasp about that? Of course if they had started clipping they probably would have heard a difference. Do you know how loud music has to be to cause a 120W amp to clip when driving reasonably sensitive 8ohm speakers? I'll make it easy for you; usually it's very LOUD (depending on a few other variables).

[Aussie Geoff]

What's hard to grasp about that? Of course if they had started clipping they probably would have heard a difference. Do you know how loud music has to be to cause a 120W amp to clip when driving reasonably sensitive 8ohm speakers? I'll make it easy for you; usually it's very LOUD (depending on a few other variables).

Enough! Your tone is rude... We don't accept people being rude in this forum. Please appologise or cease posting in this thread.

Geoff

[David Meek]

I'll take it a bit further, Geoff.

Ade, you'll be pleasant or you'll be banned. No discussion. Clear?

[pearsall001]

Ade,

Let's just say that we both agree to disagree & move on.

Happy listening,
Phil

[RebelMan]

Do ALL amplifiers sound the same? Absolutely not. Do MOST amplifiers sound the same? Possibly. Do MANY amplifiers sound the same? I think so. Do SOME amplifiers sound the same? Absolutely.

While I believe that many or perhaps most power amplifiers are "audibly" indistinguishable from one another under proper exercise, it would be a fallacy for anyone, anywhere to say that ALL amplifiers sound the same ABX tested or not unless every amplifier on the planet was evaluated against every pair of ears, clearly a practical impossibility.

In a spirit similar to mathematical proofs, if just one amplifier were identified to sound different from another, then it would prove that ALL amplifiers are in fact not the same. To some, maybe most, individuals it maybe to difficult or nearly impossible to hear the differences between amplifiers yet to others the differences would be clear. Our hearing isn't any more handicapped than our vision. It just happens that most people are more sensitive to visual impairments than they are aural ones.

Analogous to the title of this thread would be to say that "All displays look the same." One could argue that if you stand back far enough that all displays will APPEAR to look the same and therefore they are, which may be true. But does this validate the statement? Absolutely not. Just step close enough and you'll see. In the same vain, all amplifiers will not sound the same. If YOU CAN just listen close enough you'll hear.

[Ade]

Enough! Your tone is rude... We don't accept people being rude in this forum. Please appologise or cease posting in this thread.

Geoff

Geoff and David, the problem with the internet and all written media is that intonation is not easy to convey. My tone, at least in my mind, was not at all rude or insulting.

My apologies to anyone that I unintentionally offended - it really is not my intention to insult or to be rude to people here. If that is how my posts are read then either I'm having a literary bad day and my writing is not up to par or you are interpreting my posts incorrectly.

I'm curious though, why is it that when Pearsall001 said, "This is the hardest part for you to grasp", why did you view that differently than when I said, "What's hard to grasp about that?"

[Aussie Geoff]

I've discussed this topic on many forums - believe it or not the topic has sometimes been forced upon me by, uh, "well meaning" audiophiles giving me unsolicited advice...

PS. Threads like this really are fun to participate in...

Adrian,

You would appear to make a hobby of going from forum to forum, starting a thread like this and seeing how much you can stir people up. Some people like knocking letterboxes down with baseball bats too, or pulling wings off butterflies...

Way back when I asked you (very politely) to go and do some comparative listening of different components etc. and stop just quoting the same theories at us over and over again. I know now why you haven't (and probably never will). You have too much fun posting threads like this across the internet. You even have al the links to the articles ready. And to those that believe they can hear a difference (who may have spent many thousands on quality components becuase of this) - indeed to anyone who disagrees with you - you state or imply that they are deluding themselves and refer endlessly to the same few double blind trials.

Indeed, I've scrolled through every post you have made on the HTGuide and they all almost seem to be on the same three broad topics. Amplifiers make no difference, cables make no difference and burn in is a myth. Let me illustrate one of your cable quotes:

I've had this argument with the cable faithful on several forums already and I really don't want to repeat it as it gets to be rather repetitive.

What I will say is that if people do the necessary research using unbiased sources that use objective testing methods they will find that cables do not make a difference. If people want to waste ridiculous amounts of money though, well then, that's entirely their business. ~shrug~

and another with your views on burn in

Burn in usually requires a few seconds and rarely a little more. This isn't to say that there may be some extremely exotic designs out there that do require extended use to reach optimal performance - anything is possible after all. Manufacturers that mention burn in and other myths such as bi-wiring are just pandering to audiophiles fantasies and any "burn in" that people hear is either related to psycho acoustics or their own ears burning in (getting used to a new sound). It's not rocket science.

Indeed it only took you to your sixth post in this forum to summarise the view you have stated in about 30 different ways in this thread.

Almost all amps sound identical at the same SPL. Given amps of differing output ratings the differences will only become apparent when you start to exceed one amps power ratings and it begins to clip.

I have also found some remarkably similar seeming posts in other forums that (from the name etc) I suspect are yours. I can see that this is a passion for you.

I bet you could go on for years (and will in various internet forums). However we at HTGuide now all know your views. Please, unless you have something new to say, don't waste our time saying it over and over. Also, try not to find every thread requesting information about amplifier / speaker combinations and use it as a forum for drumming the "don't waste your money all amplifiers sound the same" story (and similarly those on cables), to try and start the argument (and your entertainment) going again... Boring is boring... State your views once and leave it at that. Otherwise you will find yourself banned at yet another forum (though perhaps that is part of the entertainment for you!

Geoff

[Karma]

HI Geoff,
I totally agree. I have stayed out of these threads because it seems clear that characters like Ade enjoy the confrontations.

This morinng I created a post that expressed my exasperation specifically aimed at Ade. I tore it up. I decided that I would hurt myself more than Ade. I'm very happy you have called this persons bluff. It's your job so I'll leave it to you.

Sparky

[Ade]

Geoff,

take a look back at the beginning of this thread and you'll see that I did not start it even though you claim that I go "from forum to forum" staring threads like this – in fact, as far as I recall I haven’t started any threads here.

All I’ve done is state an opinion as everyone else has and, as far as I'm concerned, I've done so relatively politely without intentionally insulting anyone. Of course, someone will almost always take offence when they are told things they do not want to hear.

However, no one is forced to read any thread here so those who get offended by being told they are as human as the rest of us do not have to hear it if they do not want to. I used to hear that complaint a lot in the forums I administered and it’s patently ridiculous of course. As is the statement that a thread is "boring". If someone finds it "boring" then they have the option of not reading it. It's a fairly simple concept.

But it seems that you've made your mind up about me so it's fairly pointless to continue. Now, if you wish ban or delete this account you go right ahead as I've no intention of continuing to contribute here anyway.

BTW, take a look at the read count of this type of thread before you convince yourself that they are “boring”.

[Race Car Driver]

Geoff,
Now, if you wish ban or delete this account you go right ahead as I've no intention of continuing to contribute here anyway.

;x(.

[NoHype]

I've had more these debates over amps then i care to remeber ,but I have learned a little from them along with the A/B tests i've performed in my room . Two things feed these debates and often lead to the chats turning ugly .

1, The absurd over the top statements that the diffrence in sound between two well built and desighned amps was large,huge,big, and night and day.

2, The far to vague blanket statement that all amps/receivers sound the same .

I hosted a get together at my home about 2 years back to do an A/B blind test between my Denon 3805 and a couple of Marantz mono blocks (mm500?) . There were 5 people involved in the test and after playing 3 tracks a few times we checked to see what we all wrote down as sounding the best , we included more details about what we heard. All five people chose "A" as sounding better then "B" , with every tarck played .

In this test the results clearly showed that one amp sounded better then the other . Before you ask all levels were calibrated to be spot on with each other. Since that time i've demoed two other amps in my room and they sounded pretty darn close , i would have hated to have to pick which one was which.

[David Meek]

if you wish ban or delete this account you go right ahead as I've no intention of continuing to contribute here anyway.

Done.

[kurtholz]

Done.

on behalf of all of us sick and tired of reading his posts

thank you

:-)

Kurt

[MJKing]

Done.

That is very disappointing. I think there were solid points on both sides and nobody was completely correct. By removing him, in my opinion, the forum has taken a side and not remained neutral. If you don't want differing opinions then you can continue down this path but I think the forum's quality will suffer.

[whoaru99]

That is very disappointing. I think there were solid points on both sides and nobody was completely correct. By removing him, in my opinion, the forum has taken a side and not remained neutral. If you don't want differing opinions then you can continue down this path but I think the forum's quality will suffer.

In principle, I agree.

But, when you ask for it to be done, the outcome is somewhat predictable.

[Race Car Driver]

That is very disappointing. I think there were solid points on both sides and nobody was completely correct. By removing him, in my opinion, the forum has taken a side and not remained neutral. If you don't want differing opinions then you can continue down this path but I think the forum's quality will suffer.

Yes, I agree,.... BUT

He was warned several times, he even starts his BS over in the B&W section, and its annoying to all hell.

He asked for it, and said he will not be contributing to this forum anyways (I dont think he ever did in the first place)

So be it, he asked for it, and I for one was sick of reading his posts.

And to get back on topic, im currently listening to my Bryston amps and I love em, they "sound different" from the aragon amp I was using before.
One happy camper here. :T

[Arneson]

This person had the oportunity for diplomacy, got offended, asked to be banned, and was.
It is a shame it went that way but Oh well. Conversations face to face can go that way also.

[David Meek]

That is very disappointing. I think there were solid points on both sides and nobody was completely correct. By removing him, in my opinion, the forum has taken a side and not remained neutral. If you don't want differing opinions then you can continue down this path but I think the forum's quality will suffer.

MJ, he was removed because he asked to be removed. He was asked to be polite and courteous in his posts, and then specifically and un-ambiguously warned as to the consequences if he wasn't. He was not asked to change his viewpoints or conform to a specific opinion or belief. As far as the subject matter is concerned, there is no right or wrong. It's about opinions, and I will uphold someone's ability to express a differing one whether I agree with it or not, AS LONG AS IT IS DONE COURTEOUSLY.

[RebelMan]

Yes, I agree,.... BUT

He was warned several times, he even starts his BS over in the B&W section, and its annoying to all hell.

:rofl: How true!

And to get back on topic, im currently listening to my Bryston amps and I love em, they "sound different" from the aragon amp I was using before.
One happy camper here. :T

Enjoy your Bryston amps RCD, I love'em too. :T

[kurtholz]

i agree, it's OK to have an opinion, but when you obviously have not paid your due's so to speak, when you obviously don't know what you are talking about,then it's OK to have an opinion, but to insult everone while doing it is beyond the boundries of what this and any other forum should be

you did the right thing

i see it on other forums all the time, so called experts who obviously know nothing with an attitude

i mean, we all know Krell is the only thing worth buying, why argue it

hahahahhahaa

(that's a joke in case someone doesn't get it)

:-)

Kurt

[MJKing]

i agree, it's OK to have an opinion, but when you obviously have not paid your due's so to speak, when you obviously don't know what you are talking about,then it's OK to have an opinion, but to insult everone while doing it is beyond the boundries of what this and any other forum should be

you did the right thing

Seemed like a very tame and polite exchange on both sides. I have seen much worse. I did not see anything that off the wall being said by either side of the discussion. I was very surprised when the moderator stepped in the first time. But I guess if the board wants to favor one opinion over another that is OK, it is somebody else's forum so they have the final say in what positions get posted and supported.

[BTB]

That is very disappointing. I think there were solid points on both sides and nobody was completely correct. By removing him, in my opinion, the forum has taken a side and not remained neutral. If you don't want differing opinions then you can continue down this path but I think the forum's quality will suffer.

MJKing,

I personally tried to appeal to good ol' Ade's sense of reason at intervals, both here and on the B&W forum. I don't want to get into a situation of running the guy down, not suggesting that anyone else is doing that either... He certainly kept me entertained, I always get a chuckle out of anyone that self convinced...

In my opinion, he is just one of those guys who is more dedicated to the cynical stance for the sake of cynicism (and perhaps even purely for the sake of being antagonistic! :twisted: ), and is therefore not particularly open to respecting or sincerely engaging the opinions of others in an open minded debate. Unfortunately this means that I.M.O he wasn't making that much of a valuable contribution to this debate in any event... more like just hammering one, inflexible viewpoint.

In my view a forum can only work if there is a level of tolerance for the views of others and a healthy dose of open mindedness, even in the face of different standpoints. Unfortunately too many of Ade's posts came across sounding confrontational and agressive, despite his regular protests of innocence.

So, for my 2 cents, not that much of a loss to the forum, but I do understand the principle of what you're saying.

[whoaru99]

... I always get a chuckle out of anyone that self convinced...

...just hammering one, inflexible viewpoint...

I'm sure this will not gain me any favoritism (and I don't mean to be picking on you specifically, BTB) but there seem to be just as many (or more, actually) with an equally inflexible view as Ade - just that it's an opposing view.

Further, the opposing point of view to Ade's does not seem quite as radical, because it's the more popular point of view, perhaps?

[Aussie Geoff]

Whoaru99,

In the end It was not the popularity or otherwise of the opinion or inflexibility of the posts that mattered.... Anyone can be inflexible or have opinions that others disagree with (indeed just look at some of the other threads - that is the heart of many discussions here)... It was the rudeness and repetitiveness (intentional or otherwise)... If someone loved their brand X amplifier or cable or speakers and would hear no other answer that's fine (just like thinking all amplifiers sound the same is fine) - indeed we have a number of passionate members this forum who do

However once anyone starts being insulting, repetitive and trying to dominate threads by saying the same thing over and over again - then I or my fellow moderators would take action (privately or publicly) as soon as we noticed. Repeat deliberate offenders get firmerand harder treatment IE it is the style not the opinion. I (or David Meek etc) would jump on "Krell is the best amplifier" 30 posted times in the same way!

Geoff

[misterdoggy]

If I may put my 2 cents in here. I re-read "Ades" comments which only in June when he became a member I quote him as saying

.......I’m fairly new to this hobby and I suppose I’m lucky that there’s such a wealth of factual information available now compared to what there was 20 or even 5 years ago........Ade 06-11-2006, 08:47 AM wrote, under topic, Power recommendation for 703's

Now if he was new to the hobby in June, How did he form such rigid idea's so fast.

My opinion is he read a lot and became influenced. Real life experience listening and owning could not have come to him between June and July 31st.

For any argument I can find a counter argument on the internet. Any stance has a coutnerstance.

This is a real psychological interest case. Maybe he needed to 'confront' to feel good.

Then there are a lot of experts here that aren't really experts aren't there. This isn't the problem, though, the problem was most people have experience's they share and he was sharing, but only what he read.

[Bob]

I didn't read every post in this thread so, forgive me if I am repeating what has already been said.

To the original question, yes, amplifiers do sound different, often very different. But, when you narrow the question down to, "Do all solid state amps with similar power ratings playing at the same level sound the same?", it gets more difficult to answer.

In my never humble opinion, the answer is, "Pretty much, yes." A decade or so ago my answer would have been no. But in todays audio world, I personally can't hear a distinct difference with short listening periods like you have at shows or showrooms.
With longer use, in a familiar room, you would probably start hearing minor differences.

So what are you paying for? More robust power supplies, expensive casing, wire types, wiring methods, name. Are these things worth the extra money? Up to the individual.

As to the old double blind test nonesense. It simply doesn't work in audio. For many reasons.
1)Most of us are more influenced by what music is being played than we are how it sounds.
2)We absolutely hear music differently. For some it is either pleasant or unpleasant noise. For some, the bass beat is everything. Some see it as a math lanquage. Some it is pictures or colors in their head. Could you sit through a symphony and know that one of the violins is slightly off key? You can bet that many people would hear it immediatly and be very sidetracked by it.
3)The first two make subtle differences almost impossible to hear in unfamiliar surroundings with short listening periods.
4)We are influenced by our visable surroundings and other people in the room
5)Most people have short audio memory.
6)We are affected by our moods and time of day.

I don't believe any audio component can be consistantly picked out using a double blind test. And I'm not just talking about the front end. I think that speakers of similar design, played at the same level, would fare no better than cables under double blind testing.

If you used dbt as your criteria then I think that a ipod to a inexpensive receiver to the least expensive floorstanding speakers you can find would be what you would end up with. Each individual piece may have tied the most expensive similar component in a dbt but, you would really have to be musically deaf to think that the end mix of components could only be beat by the theory of "diminishing returns".

[misterdoggy]

I agree with the theory that listening needs to be done in your home, not in shows or showrooms, or blind tests.

You should when considering what ever for your system make one change at a time, do a comparison in your familiar surroundings, same music cd, same everything then A/B comparison of whichever you want to know about.

You can't really count on what you hear in an acoustically treated room, with specially selected CD's that sound fantastic. Yes, it can give you an idea that this is material or components you want, but you need to take it home and try one change at a time.

Words of Wisdom .... :T

[whoaru99]

You can't really count on what you hear in an acoustically treated room, with specially selected CD's that sound fantastic. Yes, it can give you an idea that this is material or components you want, but you need to take it home and try one change at a time.

Words of Wisdom .... :T

I thought I was done with this thread, but this begs a question.

If one can't count on what you hear in an acoustically treated room with a great CD, how can you (anyone) count on what they hear in less than ideal situation?

[misterdoggy]

You take it home and try it out in your setting, your cd that you know in your "good or bad setting" to see if its better or worse.

simple as that

In either case you have to see whatever it is works with your mixture of components

[whoaru99]

As to the old double blind test nonesense. It simply doesn't work in audio. For many reasons.
1)Most of us are more influenced by what music is being played than we are how it sounds.
2)We absolutely hear music differently. For some it is either pleasant or unpleasant noise. For some, the bass beat is everything. Some see it as a math lanquage. Some it is pictures or colors in their head. Could you sit through a symphony and know that one of the violins is slightly off key? You can bet that many people would hear it immediatly and be very sidetracked by it.
3)The first two make subtle differences almost impossible to hear in unfamiliar surroundings with short listening periods.
4)We are influenced by our visable surroundings and other people in the room
5)Most people have short audio memory.
6)We are affected by our moods and time of day.

I don't believe any audio component can be consistantly picked out using a double blind test. And I'm not just talking about the front end. I think that speakers of similar design, played at the same level, would fare no better than cables under double blind testing.

If you used dbt as your criteria then I think that a ipod to a inexpensive receiver to the least expensive floorstanding speakers you can find would be what you would end up with. Each individual piece may have tied the most expensive similar component in a dbt but, you would really have to be musically deaf to think that the end mix of components could only be beat by the theory of "diminishing returns".

Bob, without regard to which camp I'm in, I have some different opinions on #1-6. Keep in mind I'm merely speaking with regard to dismissal of the significance of DBT/ABX style testing.

1. As far as I know, you can choose your music preferences for a DBT/ABX test. And, in this context of discussion, it's only about differences, not preferences.

2. Agreed, WE probably hear things differently, but YOU (generically speaking) are the one taking the test. So, whether or not we hear things differently, we each hear what we do (or don't) and should be able to hear them repeatedly under the same conditions using what ever audible clues suit you best.

3. & 5. (I tie these together) Are not these somewhat contradictory? If people have short auditory memory, would not rapidly switching between A, B, and X, be amongst the best ways to ID these differences before we forget them?

4. & 5. Generally, agreed, these are influences on people. However, we are all challenged to perform under pressure almost every day at work or in our personal lives. Why should audio get a bye (spelling??) on this?

[spyboy]

There really are some golden ears out there. While the large majority will fail (break even) in double blind tests, there is the rare individual who beats the odds.

Did some very crude comparisons years ago to see for myself if I could hear a difference, believing that they all sounded the same. To my surprise they did not sound the same. I picked one that to me had a "harmonic correctness" that made the sound of real instruments more natural.

A while later, a magazine reviewed the one I picked. While some of the 5 or 6 reviewers did not like the sound, several were quite positive making comments that were consistent with my experience.

Where is Julian Hirsch when we need him?

[Boombox]

on behalf of all of us sick and tired of reading his posts

thank you

:-)

Kurt

I'm with Kurt here....

It is pretty obvious that all are in agreement that amps do sound different. Except Ade...!! He was sitting on the otherside of the fence alone...

He truly just said the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again.....so much so, I got sick of it...

I'm not for deleting his account , but hell, what else do you do.... ....sure, I can comend Ade for his perserverence :roll: , but that's about it.....

[aud19]

People who drank "modified" Kool-aid to get on the "mothership" had perserverence in what they beleived as well :roll:

[whoaru99]

People who drank "modified" Kool-aid to get on the "mothership" had perserverence in what they beleived as well :roll:

There is proof they didn't make it?

[aud19]

There is proof they didn't make it?

You win!!!!! :rofl: :roflmao:

[whoaru99]

I'm with Kurt here....

It is pretty obvious that all are in agreement that amps do sound different. Except Ade...!! He was sitting on the otherside of the fence alone...

He truly just said the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again.....so much so, I got sick of it...

I'm not for deleting his account , but hell, what else do you do.... ....sure, I can comend Ade for his perserverence :roll: , but that's about it.....

I'd not say he's exactly alone.

It all depends on how the question is phrased.

It certainly would be a broad statement to say all amps sound the same, but it is about equally as broad to say they don't.

I think amps can sound different, especially if that is the goal - to make them sound different. However, I'm also of the opinion that comparable amps of competent design will sound very similar, if not indistinguishable, from each other.

[whoaru99]

You win!!!!! :rofl: :roflmao:

Glad it brought some humor. I thought the point was quite befitting of this discussion.

[NoHype]

I'd not say he's exactly alone.

It all depends on how the question is phrased.

It certainly would be a broad statement to say all amps sound the same, but it is about equally as broad to say they don't.

I think amps can sound different, especially if that is the goal - to make them sound different. However, I'm also of the opinion that comparable amps of competent design will sound very similar, if not indistinguishable, from each other.

I agree with you 100% , well said .

Like I said before it's the over the top remarks like "this Parasound sounds night and day better then that Rotel" that are just as guilty for fueling these wars . I find it even more absurd when remarks like that come from people who are listening to these amps either in two diffrent locations , or in a room that has so much reflected sound and room nodes that it would be close to impossible to pick up on the relatively small differences between amps.

[David Meek]

There is proof they didn't make it?

I didn't hear any. :