Is Vinyl Still Valid?

[David Meek]

Another thread got this started. Do you think vinyl is still a valid medium for quality reproduction of music?

I'll go first and say "Yes, I do". It's finicky and does require some effort not needed for other mediums, but you can get good results - at least IMO - that make it worth the work.

[Bob]

In regards to music reproduction, sometimes the only medium that beats it are the master tapes. Sometimes the vinyl version of a album is poorly engineered or pressed and the cd version is better. Sometimes the cd version is better than the SACD version but not better than the vinyl version. Sometimes the SACD version is the best of the three mediums. Almost never is the DVD version the best but, it is often the most enjoyable because of the vidio aspect. There is more music available on vinyl than any other high rez medium. DVD's and vinyl score high on fun. Vinyl scores low on fun if you find the amount of changes you can make with cartridge adjustments, cleaning, etc. work instead of fun. CDs and SACDs and DVDs have a quiter background, a unatural sound to some. Vinyl tends to give more sense of the space it was recorded in, more natural to some people.
Used vinyl can be cheap, new vinyl can be expensive. Some older music can only be found on vinyl. Digital music can be cheap, even free, copied and shared.
As to the actual question, "Do you think vinyl is still a valid medium for quality reproduction of music", anybody that has heard any of Acoustic Sounds direct to disc recordings already knows the answer. Which is, hell yes.
As to any question which of the mediums is best. IMHO, it is a stupid question. They all have their pluses and minuses. I personally almost never listen to digital music at home and don't use the remote functions on my gear but, so what. It is all about fun first. I totally understand peoples aversion to vinyl. What I can't understand is why some people get so upset over what others enjoy.

[Kens1]

To myself it is absolutely valid. Obviously others feel the same as vinyl is making somewhat of a comeback. Locally, every hifi boutique now has more turntables for sale than they did even three years ago and music stores are starting to get vinyl sections again.
CD is a great technology with great potential, however I beleive that potential is rarely reached - not by the equipment, but by the actual cd's poor quality. If you want well recorded cd's it seems you have to look for them from places like telarc, etc. Well vinyl doesn't take any more effort than that and I find most new vinyl is of excellent quality - too bad I can't say the same for the last 12 cd's I purchased.
I personally beleive that vinyl and turntables put some fun back into listening to music, but I can also see why some would find it a bothersome experience. Lately I have found trying to get the most out of cd playback a bothersome experience.

[George Bellefontaine]

I voted absolutely. Heck I must have about 500 or so albums that still sound great to me.

[Shane Martin]

Absolutely. The fact I can still buy vinyl at a local store is enough of a reason. I've also heard what great vinyl can sound like and to be honest, a great cd can't match it. Then again i've never heard any XRCD's.

[Glen B]

Okay.....those who voted "what's vinyl?" raise your hands. :lol: I agree with David that you can get good sound from vinyl, just that it takes some work and you need to have decent playback equipment that is properly setup.

[gostan]

Analogue Rules! I am happy to get up off of my rear to turn those vinyl discs every 25-30 minutes, or, even every 10-12 minutes for those absolutely wonderful Analogue Productions 45rpm reissues which are the best (but expensive) recordings available today.

My only issue with vinyl is that I wish that I had taken better care of my old vinyl from the 60's, 70's & 80's. Some of those lp's are listenable, but many are warped, scratched or crackling.

My bi-weekly Acoustic Sounds orders are a very welcome fed ex delivery.

[aud19]

Valid? Certainly, like any other format it has the capacity to produce great music. However so do the other formats and they add reliability, ease of use and in some cases added functionality. So I gave it a mere middling grade

[Taito]

I've found a reasonable supply of new vinyl. I enjoy it. How could it not be valid. Now, if I could just bite the bullet and shell for a decent spinner... I'll have to see how much the government gives back - 'tis the season to make tax claims.

[Brahma]

"It's not as quite as good as the other formats" is my opinion on it. If you take everything into consideration then quite clearly it isn't.

Bob sums it up well though because he mentions the pluses and minuses.

So it is a question that has no absolute answer, and will vary according to the tastes, likes and dislikes of the listener.

But from a logical point of view, and evolutionary perspective of where Hi-Fi is heading, taking into consideration developmental potential, cost, availability, longevity - all the elements a product needs to envelope to be considered the better option - then digital leaves vinyl well behind. And will continue to do so by increasing margins.

Notwithstanding the nostalgic resurgence of vinyl in the last 2 years, I have no doubt vinyl as a medium will continue to fade over the next decade. Vinyl is already at its limit as far as manufacturing technology goes whereas digital is still in its infancy.

It's analogous, nor is it much different, to what happened when 78 gramophone records began to be surpassed by LP's. Sure plenty of people were dubious about the new technology and wanted to hold on to the old ways. Intrinsically I don't have a problem with that, but as the years role by vinyl will fall more under the banner of special interest and nostalgia.

[Bob]

Brahma, you made two mistakes in your reply. One, so far, vinyl has far outlasted any other medium both in musical enjoyment and in the ability to still be used no matter how many decades ago the record was pressed. Probably has a longer shelf life than pitted aluminum discs. Second, it isn't the same as 33 1/2 vinyls replacement of 78 rpm shellac discs. The physical properties of vinyl was far superior to the 78's and the vinyl material, the newer cartridges, and the new turntables to play them on all added up to a far superior sound than the old gramaphone could reproduce.

CDs and other digital mediums are only sometimes better sonically and when they are, which is seldom, the difference is slight not far superior. It is yet to be seen if cds will outlast a record physically. If they do, it is a moot point since vinyl can already last a person's life time. CDs are without question more convenient and can take more abuse and need less care. To some of us these things don't matter.

Hopefully, you are right about vinyl eventually being just a nostalgia thing. I say hopefully because that will mean that something better has finally arrived. To be better it has to be more convenient, sound far superior, and be as much fun. So far, only the first has come along.

[Brahma]

Brahma, you made two mistakes in your reply. One, so far, vinyl has far outlasted any other medium both in musical enjoyment and in the ability to still be used no matter how many decades ago the record was pressed. Probably has a longer shelf life than pitted aluminum discs. Second, it isn't the same as 33 1/2 vinyls replacement of 78 rpm shellac discs. The physical properties of vinyl was far superior to the 78's and the vinyl material, the newer cartridges, and the new turntables to play them on all added up to a far superior sound than the old gramaphone could reproduce.

CDs and other digital mediums are only sometimes better sonically and when they are, which is seldom, the difference is slight not far superior. It is yet to be seen if cds will outlast a record physically. If they do, it is a moot point since vinyl can already last a person's life time. CDs are without question more convenient and can take more abuse and need less care. To some of us these things don't matter.

Hopefully, you are right about vinyl eventually being just a nostalgia thing. I say hopefully because that will mean that something better has finally arrived. To be better it has to be more convenient, sound far superior, and be as much fun. So far, only the first has come along.

You know, I used 78 and LP's as an analogy, not to compare any of their technical merits, per se, but to metaphor how at any present point in time it is difficult to see beyond what is currently going on to what is possible in the future. And what brings the future on is letting go of the past and limited understanding.

My employment is as a futurist - I analyse present trends in technology, culture and the arts and forecast future potentials for business and government on a consultancy basis. So from the standpoint of my experience the future in recordable sound is digital.

As a future in technology, I'm not referring to Digital Data discs - all 20 or so formats - because these will ultimately be superseded by newer storage mediums that overcome all current limits. How does a moveless storage mechanism that can record every bit of data from a recording, never decay in sound quality and be free of all errors grab you? It will be here within a decade.

[David Meek]

How does a moveless storage mechanism that can record every bit of data from a recording, never decay in sound quality and be free of all errors grab you? It will be here within a decade.

Wonderful!

With one caveat IMO. You knew this was coming, right? : As long as the reproduced sound is as close or closer to the actual sound as that currently available from existing media. From the standpoint of wanting the best possible reproduced sound, improvements in decoding/storage technology will be very welcome, but not at the cost of what we hear.

[Bob]

Two caveats, sounds better, is reasonably priced, and most important, is more fun. Most of the ideas for the future of recorded music that I have heard have a fun factor of about zero. Especially music that will be broadcast over the air.

[autio]

Brahma, I Have to say That being a futurist --- whatever that means, has no bearing on whether vinyl is valid or not. But it is nice to know. From your discription your job sounds more like a trend watcher or trend predictor, My idea of futurists are people like Asimov or Sagan or Orwell visionaries that do more than just watch trends fgor marketability. Back on topic I think the thoughts about anolouge vs. digital always leave out the fact that if you took a top notch system system from 30 years ago (best of the best) and compared it to a good system today you will see that we really havent come that far. I also think that music(like all of the arts) is about emotion so this factor although hard to measure and put into a meaningful spec on a numerical scale still sells products (vinyl, tube amps ect.) . Personally I dont have a turntable but I grew up listening to one(I am 37). I have a mac 602 amp, a van alstine 440 hc amp and cal audio delta sigma a cal 2500 series processor cal 2500 dvd a set of tannoy 15 dmt II monitors a 4 tempest IB sub and to be honest when I stopped at my fathers and he is playing a toots and the mytals record on 20 year old allison 3's though a luxman amp I am amazed at the emotion

[ThomasW]

In late 1983 I converted to all digital software. I threw a big party gave away 600+ albums, and have never looked back.

There certainly are vinyl pressings that sound 'better' than their redbook counterpart, but I really got tired of buying 2, or 3, or 4 copies of a recording just because the vinyl wore out. Also issues with snap/crackle/pop/wow/flutter/lack of dynamic range/no really low bass/etc, and general surface noise just drive me nuts.

I kept the rare and imported albums, and have slowly archived them to CD. It's almost painful to do this because the issues (listed above) with vinyl cause my teeth to grind when I'm 'ripping' the albums to CD.

[David Meek]

In late 1983 I converted to all digital software. I threw a big party gave away 600+ albums, and have never looked back.

Thomas, you didn't invite me?!?!?!?!?!

[Cracking Oboe]

Hi all!

My comments are not meant to be inflammatory, and my questions are genuine.

I wonder how about the folks who like vinyl:

a) Did they 'discover' vinyl later, after digital (novelty)?
b) Were they resistant to digital upon its release?
c) Did they spend years digging in their heels supporting vinyl, and not venture into digital for a long time? (It's always hard to admit you were wrong)
d) How much time do they spend tending to their records/turntable set up?
e) How much money they have spent on their systems?
f) How many recordings they have replaced?

For me,

a) One snap, one pop, can pull me out of 'the moment' when listening to classical recordings.
b) I found myself replacing records at an alarming rate. By the time I was replacing a second copy of a favorite, I was getting grumpy.
c) I wasted lots of time trying to remove any source of rumble from my turntable.
d) I spent years and $$$ trying to find the perfect cartridge and aligning each new one.
e) I purchased a CD player when they first came out (I missed the first two players that came into town) and I have never looked back... and 100% of the CDs I purchased are still 100%... not a snap or pop amongst the lot.

So...

IMHO records suck. Do they make good frisbees? We took or frisbee and one of my records (which had been replaced by another vinyl recording, and a CD,and a DVD-A) and gave it a A/B comparison. No contest... the Frisbee was much better in flight, and was way easier on the hands to catch.

Cracking!

[Claude D D]

Vinyl rocks!!!We all need to get back to good ol'e 2 channel and ditch the compressed i-pod,mp3 crap.It's much less stress and you don't usually need a manual to figure it out. :W

[aud19]

ditch the compressed i-pod,mp3 crap.

I agree with that part :lol:

[Bob]

a) Did they 'discover' vinyl later, after digital (novelty)?
Grew up in the 50's and 60's with vinyl. Dumped it when digital came out
b) Were they resistant to digital upon its release?
Absolutely not. My last digital system was a Casablanca II with Extreme DACs. Sources were Theta David II, and Theta Data III.
c) Did they spend years digging in their heels supporting vinyl, and not venture into digital for a long time? (It's always hard to admit you were wrong)
Went right into digital. Threw away the tt and sold all my records at a used record store.
d) How much time do they spend tending to their records/turntable set up?
Once it was set up, none. Tending records, used get cleaned once with enzyme cleaner and wash. New get nothing except a quick removal of dust before playing. Cartridge gets cleaned before each session, about 15 seconds of work.
e) How much money they have spent on their systems?
Speakers, linestage, amps, phono amp, cd player, turntable, cables and everything? Under $60,000. Turntable, arm, cartridge, phono amp about the same cost as the linestage. Present CD player is a moderate priced Granite Audio with tube output.
f) How many recordings they have replaced?
None due to wear. Todays cartridges and arms have a pretty light touch. Like everything in audio todays products are leaps and bounds better than 20 years ago.

Almost all records have surface noise. Some people are annoyed by it, others aren't. The loud pops and clicks from record abuse and older cartridges don't have to be present though. Some people find digital music causes restlessness, sort of like a child with ADD. Unfortunately I am one of those people. I find that after about 10 minutes of a cd I start getting restless and can't sit still. So, for me I trade that for surface noise that doesn't bother me at all.
Just shows we are all different and isn't it great we have so many choices.

Staying with the original thread. I can make a list as long as my arm of the benifits of digital music. My list for vinyl has only four things on it, I like the mechanics of the turntable and arm to fiddle with should I want, I like the physical part of the medium itself as well as the cover art and liner notes, I prefer the way analog sounds (my wife is even more adament about this part), I find it much more fun to fool around with. These four things are more important than convenience for me.

[thyname]

ditch the compressed i-pod,mp3 crap.

I agree with this part too, but, this part only

[Jack Keck]

I prefer the convience of digital formats. That said, I alsways advocate that one who thinks that he/she preferss vinyl get the best TT possible. In addition, any turntable can play back used records and allow a listener to explore music that is new to him/her relatively cheaply.

[Patt]

I could not have been any more that 6 or so playing at a desk in the home office. In the next room Mom was listening to a recently released Frank Sinatra album on the big console stereo. I remember looking over my shoulder thinking Frank S. was in the next room singing to her. Of course I couldnt understand why she wanted to listen to him, but I do now.

[Claude D D]

Vinyl rocks!!!We all need to get back to good ol'e 2 channel and ditch the compressed i-pod,mp3 crap.It's much less stress and you don't usually need a manual to figure it out.

Don't get me wrong I love my Multi-channel HT set-up.But sometimes it's nice to get back to the basics and spin some vinyl.If a person has a large vinyl collection it's worth getting a decent phono stage and turntable.Even somrthing fairly modest like a Rega P3 will generally outperform most 20 yr old + turntables.I spun most of my LP's on a $400 Technics with a $100 Grado cartridge and thought it sounded pretty good.But I was quite impressed by what I heard when listening to a Rega P5 not to long ago.I wouldn't say it sounded better than a good CD just a different flavor and a different flavor in nice from time to time. :T

[ThomasW]

Thomas, you didn't invite me?!?!?!?!?!

You wouldn't have wanted them. I was death to vinyl.

When Jon and I had the Boulder Sound Gallery we bought 1/2 dozen or so of each album used for in-store demos. They got trashed playing the same cut over and over and over......

Even with todays lower tracking forces the grooves distort after a single play. The vinyl needs to 'rest' to return to something close to it's original form. So jumping up and replaying that song you just heard is a no-no if the goal is to keep one's collection in pristine condition.

Before converting to CD's I'd record all my new albums to 15ips tape (we sold the big Otari and Dokorder units) . That way I could play the tape over and over and over. When the tape gave out I just recorded the record again. That was the only way to off-set the cost of records..... and I didn't have to get up every 18 minutes to turn over the stupid record.... :wink:

[DifferentLee]

Vinyl on a great rig sounds slightly better than great SACD based on my listening.

There is something to be said for staying in the analog domain and avoiding the ADC-DAC conversion steps which are always imperfect.

[Cracking Oboe]

The vinyl needs to 'rest' to return to something close to it's original form. So jumping up and replaying that song you just heard is a no-no if the goal is to keep one's collection in pristine condition.

I had no idea!! This could explain why I had such poor experiences with record longevity, inspite of using a properly aligned stylus, and adhering to strict cleaning/handling procedures. Thanks for the insight Thomas.

Cracking!

[John G]

Vinyl is a great medium. There is so much great music available and a sizable amount of music can be had for little cost. Visit your local used record store and find out. I started buying records 30 years ago and still play them and they sound fine. I occassionally use a carbon fibre brush to get the dust off my records and use a compound on the diamond every 3 or 4 record sides to keep it clean. The turntable gets used about 1,000 hours a year, my only maintenance cost is to rebuild the cartridge every 1,500 hours or so.

Here's a picture of my 2 channel rig, it feeds three two channel systems in various rooms of the house.

[chrispy35]

After seeing K-Os last night, the DJ in his band certainly proved that vinyl is still valid as part of an instrument. Certainly not what the inventors of vinyl had in mind and probably not what most people here are thinking about when they answer the poll.

If all vinyl magically dissappeared overnight, I'd miss the DJ's the most. I don't think I'd feel any loss to my enjoyment of pre-recorded music though.

[aud19]

They have CD/DVD/MP3 "digital turntables" that allow you to do the same things so.......

[chrispy35]

You never see performing DJs using them though. I'm guessing the size of the LP is actually an advantage for this type of work. Then again, it could just be nostalgia for them.

[bigburner]

"I've walked in a lot of places I never should have been, but I do know that the messiah, he will come again".

Thank you for that line Jack. It has inspired me to go and get "The Messiah". Will it matter if I can only find it on an old vinyl 33? Not one tiny little bit. How about an mp3 downloaded from the Internet? Even better, because I'll be listening to it within 10 minutes of posting this thread. Will I try to buy the CD later? Sure, if I like the track and the quality of the recording warrants it.

For me the music will always be more important than the magnificence of the equipment that's playing the music. If that means playing an mp3, then so be it.

PS. Do you have Roy Buchanan's "Live in Japan" album Jack?

[Jack Keck]

"I've walked in a lot of places I never should have been, but I do know that the messiah, he will come again".

Thank you for that line Jack. It has inspired me to go and get "The Messiah". Will it matter if I can only find it on an old vinyl 33? Not one tiny little bit. How about an mp3 downloaded from the Internet? Even better, because I'll be listening to it within 10 minutes of posting this thread. Will I try to buy the CD later? Sure, if I like the track and the quality of the recording warrants it.

For me the music will always be more important than the magnificence of the equipment that's playing the music. If that means playing an mp3, then so be it.

PS. Do you have Roy Buchanan's "Live in Japan" album Jack?

No, I do not. I only have a compilation on CD and one of two LPs. Now, I'll have ot go looking for this.

Are you reverring to Handel's Messiah or Roy Buchanan's song?

[bigburner]

Jack, I'm referring to Roy Buchanan's song which I downloaded in that nasty mp3 format a few minutes after posting my thread. Quite nice.

It's Friday 5.30pm here in New Zealand and my working week has just ended. I'm off to the pub for a few beers before going home to give the hi-fi a sound thrashing. I plan to listen to the Live in Japan CD this evening, having had my interest in Roy Buchanan revived by this forum. Jimi Hendrix, Chris Cain and Rory Gallagher will probably get a look-in, and Ray Charles and Solomon Burke may even put in an appearance later.

I love Friday nights...

[bigburner]

Vinyl picture - cover your eyes!

As old as the dinosaur and just as ugly...

[George Bellefontaine]

I could not have been any more that 6 or so playing at a desk in the home office. In the next room Mom was listening to a recently released Frank Sinatra album on the big console stereo. I remember looking over my shoulder thinking Frank S. was in the next room singing to her. Of course I couldnt understand why she wanted to listen to him, but I do now.

You mom has great taste, Pat. :T

[Bam!]

For me vinyl rules. The digital edge on redbook cds bothers me. I am not saying I don't listen to cds, but I am saying that as far as sound goes, vinyl is hard to beat.

Also, this wear and tear thingy...it confuses me actually cause I don't have any problems with snap crackle or pop, Kellog's stays in the pantry in my house! I use a VPI machine to clean them, an anti static brush and a cartridge cleaner....no crackle.

Anyways I wouldn't live without either format!

David, great thread!

[David Meek]

Hey hey, we have a Bam! sighting! :banana:

[Bam!]

Hey hey, we have a Bam! sighting! :banana:

How's everything David ?

[aud19]

Steve! :banana: :

[Bam!]

Steve! :banana: :

Jason!

Wass happenin ?

[H.T.C]

If this isnt a nod that folks still like vinyl as a format what would be? since the nottingham deco turntable and ace-anna tornarm cost $38,499.

Cds sometimes sound tinny or hollow,not full or reboust .

[Bam!]

If this isnt a nod that folks still like vinyl as a format what would be? since the nottingham deco turntable and ace-anna tornarm cost $38,499.

Cds sometimes sound tinny or hollow,not full or reboust .

I couldn`t agree more.

[David Meek]

If cost is any indication of approval, vinyl is the champ as the Rockport Sirius III is what? Around US$75,000? 8O 8O 8O