Is SACD dead?

[RebelMan]

I like SACD. I like RBCD. I like Vinyl. - It's all about the music and NOT the format.

Another way of putting this would be... It's all about the ride and NOT the car.

However, I think the car you ride in does matter, just as the format we listen to music does. If this were not true, then good ole' vinyl would still be king.

Needless to say, I can appreciate and understand the point being made here that it's really about the music. However, let's not kid ourselves, you honestly can NOT have the music without the format.

[DifferentLee]

I like SACD. I like RBCD. I like Vinyl. - It's all about the music and NOT the format.

I politely differ. I can enjoy music better if I get ahold of a SACD or LP. Redbook just does not have enough performance for acoustical works. Drums sound like hat boxes and cymbals sound like aluminum foil.

[Phil Rose]

Originally posted by: RebelMan
Another way of putting this would be... It's all about the ride and NOT the car.

I think that's exacty right. If you like the ride you've got then great. Does it really matter if your in a (insert brand A here) or (insert brand B here) pickup if you can have the same ride feel?

I will admit that I can tell a subtle difference between SACD and RBCD with vinyl largely set apart by the surface noise of the format. However, setting these subtle differences aside, it's the music that I'm after. I've never listened to an IPOD but understand that they can be very pleasing.

The way things are going there will be no media in the future and I would expect that we will be very happy as long as the level of performace is as good as, or better than, what we have today. So, ultimately I believe that SACD, RBCD, Vinyl, DVD-A, etc. are DEAD. In the meantime I'll be enjoying them until they're replaced.

Peace

[Phil Rose]

Originally posted by:DifferentLee
I politely differ. I can enjoy music better if I get ahold of a SACD or LP. Redbook just does not have enough performance for acoustical works. Drums sound like hat boxes and cymbals sound like aluminum foil.

I wonder if much of what you describe isn't due to the compression and gain riding that happens during the mastering process? I suspect that the mastering of an SACD is much different than the standard RBCD. In fact, I recall a Stereophile analysis of the two layers of Dark Side of the Moon where the RB layer was totally trashed compared to the DSD layer. Again, I admit that there are differences in the media and maybe you have a better ear than I do.

Back to the car analogy, the best car in the world will ride like c&@p on a road made of boulders.

[RebelMan]

Does it really matter if your in a (insert brand A here) or (insert brand B here) pickup if you can have the same ride feel?

It might if one prefers the features of Brand A over Brand B. If CD's and LP's sounded exactly the same, would you still choose LP's?

However, setting these subtle differences aside, it's the music that I'm after.

Agreed, but it's the format that will get you there.

The way things are going there will be no media in the future and I would expect that we will be very happy as long as the level of performace is as good as, or better than, what we have today.

Hopefully the level of performance will be there in the future but there will always be some type of media (format) providing it. It just may not be what we are accustom to today.

So, ultimately I believe that SACD, RBCD, Vinyl, DVD-A, etc. are DEAD. In the meantime I'll be enjoying them until they're replaced.

Enjoy! :T

[DifferentLee]

I wonder if much of what you describe isn't due to the compression and gain riding that happens during the mastering process?

I work as an audiophile recording engineer on the weekends so I can isolate any mastering effects. There are huge differences between redbook performance and DSD performance. Anyone can take a Chesky redbook like New York Reunion and compare it to the same album on SACD and hear the improvement.

Most audiophile labels use the same or very similar mastering process for the redbook and SACD layers so other comparisons are available.

There have been a few SACDs where the redbook layer was not great but they are in the minority. I listen often to the redbook layer in my car and then play it back at home on the Sony SACD player.

I really poor SACD can be bettered by a very well mastered redbook, but in my experience I have only heard this once or twice.

[martino]

SACD is not dead...

I has never gotten out of it's infantcy! Same for DVD-A...if the record companies and the hardware mfgrs.thought that either of the two would appeal to the masses it was a gross error...the masses (which we here are thankfully not part of) want convience, first and formost...if it requires being stationary for any period of time,,,forget it (i'm speaking audio wise here).
SACD and DVD-A will continue to be just what they have been...a niche market fot folks who appreciate such things...any attemp to mainsteam things (dual disc) will not appeal to myself and most of us here.
We must continue to support hirez multi-channel music, however disappointed we are on the software available...we should be proud of our uniqueness and appreciation of detail.
Until hirez can be offered as the norm...the choices will remain niche.

Keep the db up!

Martin

[ThomasW]

This is from a post at the Hi-Rez section at AA. Someone that actually called and spoke with the folks at Sony.

1) Sony music will start rolling out sacds agin starting in the fall. they told me was the reason why so few had come out it was they were waiting for the new sonoma work stations to be delivered this past April.

2) the first sacd audio systems for cars will be announced in September.

3) the first portable sacd players will probably be out next year.

4) the new sonoma has generated a lot of interest and they said that there will be an increase in releases from the other big labels. when I asked who they said they couldn`t say at this time as the deals were still being worked out.

they also asked me who I would I would most like to see on sacd and I said, well Frank of course. They then told me that dweezil had taken delivery of a sonoma and was already working on the first albums. i was surprised to say the least and they told me to check out this site as they had already done a story on it. sure enough....

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep04/articles/zappa.htm

[Jack Keck]

Good news, Thomas. Thi ssoming from one who has owned a hi-rez machine for two weeks and has exactly two SACDs to his name. I do intend to get more, though!

[Andrew M Ward]

This attitude and behavior maybe acceptable at AudioKarma, but it doesn't fly here.

You are entitled to your opinion, but it's just that, an opinion, it's not dogma, so chill.

I thought this was supposed to be an open forum?
Sounds more like you want something else, goose stepping perhaps?

everybody should be able to explain their feelings as long as they aren't being cruel and unusual. Moderator or not, you're the one who needs to chill...

Just me 2 cents

[David Meek]

I'm not going to let this turn into a flame-game. Stop the accusatory posts immediately - or else.


Audio Hideout Moderator


.

[ThomasW]

I thought this was supposed to be an open forum?

It is an open forum in the sense that virtually any audio related topic can be discussed.

The standard of behavior here like the rest of HT-Guide, is that people will manifest polite and friendly adult behavior.

[RebelMan]

This is from a post at the Hi-Rez section at AA. Someone that actually called and spoke with the folks at Sony.

This is, perhaps, just another feeble attempt by Sony to resuscitate an already dying format.

SACD and DVD-A will continue to be just what they have been...a niche market fot folks who appreciate such things...any attemp to mainsteam things (dual disc) will not appeal to myself and most of us here.

SACD wasn't conceived for a niche market nor or was it intended to be an enthusiasts only format. It was conceived to stave off the growing threat of the DVD Forum's DVD-A format and the onslought of CD ripping that was impacting their bottom line. Understandably so, as they have huge investments in both the software and hardware fronts of the audio recording/reproducing industry.

Sony's interests have been and continue to be competitively driven not consumer driven. Until Sony learns to work more cooperatively with others in the industry in which they play, they will amount to be nothing more than their own niche. Rather than becoming the standards leader they have become the standards follower. Poetic justice at its finest.

[ThomasW]

If the format dies it dies. I don't spend much time or energy ruminating over format wars, corporate agendas or other things over which I have no control, there's just too much good music to listen to.....:wink:

[martino]

Rebel Man; I agree with your statement..the error was with the music companies thinking SACD and DVD-A could have mass appeal. First it takes the right gear to appreciate these formats..the average folk won't spend or do not understand what it takes to realize hirez..IT JUST IS OF NO INTEREST TO THEM!...therfor hirez becomes by default a NICHE item.....i for one am proud to be part of this niche!!!!!

the masses are asses..

Martin

[csuzor]

the average folk won't spend or do not understand what it takes to realize hirez..IT JUST IS OF NO INTEREST TO THEM!...therfor hirez becomes by default a NICHE item.....
the masses are asses..

Careful Martin, I may get offended!

Until 6 months ago, I was not interested in hirez nor multichannel, now I am a fervent supporter. I had what I considered a decent stereo system, and the music sounded good to me. I also converted my music to wma to replay through PC quality speakers, and couldn't understand why some compression rates were called "CD quality" but they were not the highest: "isn't CD quality the top quality?", I asked myself. I then bought my first dvd player, but when the salesman asked if I wanted to pay $10 more to have sacd capability in the dvd player, I turned it down, no interest!

What happened since then? I had the cash and the time, so I decided to upgrade all my gear (originally just stereo), and I found this site on the internet. The rest is history.

It's not that "the masses are asses", there are many factors involved. For those who have ventured far enough into it, the choice is clear, and I believe this will continue to help sacd/dvd-a grow, in an exponential trend (convert 1 person, he will help convert 2 persons, etc)

[martino]

Csuzor; Just by the mere fact you are involved in HTforum you are not one of the "masses"...I don't sugar coat anything..come on, just look at anything popular...do you want to be part of it...is Jessica Simpson your kind of music...of course not!....with regards to ipods and the like they serve a pourpose...i have a Dell device, I, as you download in WMA...the masses don't!...they are to busy listening to MP3 and chowing down at MacDonalds.
There is nothing wrong with being proud of appreciating quality...on any level..this is what makes this forum so wonderful..as none of my friend can fathom how i could spend 1K on speaker cables!
Anyway i'm rambling

Cheers to you my brother!!
Martin

[DifferentLee]

SACD wasn't conceived for a niche market nor or was it intended to be an enthusiasts only format. It was conceived to stave off the growing threat of the DVD Forum's DVD-A format and the onslought of CD ripping that was impacting their bottom line. Understandably so, as they have huge investments in both the software and hardware fronts of the audio recording/reproducing industry.

I'm sorry but this is not factually true. Sony invented DSD as an archiving format but were so pleased with it that they made investments to bring it to audiophiles. While Sony hoped for the profits from wider acceptance, it is not clear to me that they ever saw it completely replacing CDs. Much of the talk from David Kawakami was that it would be a premium product for those want to move beyond iTunes and MP3 experiences as they got older and had more disposable income.

You folks need to get your facts right instead of assuming prior internet discussions are factual.

This is part of the perception problem that "SACD failed"...on the contrary it has delivered big profits to Sony (hardware, software, royalty), the other big record labels, and is often the lifeblood currently of many boutiques labels that I have strong connections with.

Another perception issue is that the mass market matters...it really does not in a sense as most business consultants consider the mass market to be a collection of niches of different user types. Joe and Jane Sixpack are fictional...they don't exist. Joe iTunes, Jane Redbook, and Jim Audiophile do exist...get my meaning? Marketing and designing for each of them will provide the best profits and customer satisfaction. In other worlds, we can have a world where iTunes, CDs, and SACDs all coexist simultaneously and profitably.

Given the lack of marketing dollars spent on the format, it enjoys a terrific grassroots patchwork of dedicated music listeners and audiophiles. Several labels only produce hybrid SACDs like Channel Classics.

I can understand if you are disappointed with a lack of certain pop titles but there is more awesome jazz and classical than I can afford to buy.

[Phil Rose]

Good post DifferentLee. I like this part for its relationship to the Beta format.

This is part of the perception problem that "SACD failed"...on the contrary it has delivered big profits to Sony (hardware, software, royalty),

Beta format video was big in TV studios and only mildly successful in the commerical market.

[csuzor]

Several labels only produce hybrid SACDs like Channel Classics.
...
there is more awesome jazz and classical than I can afford to buy.

Fully agree. My wife keeps complaining when the postman delivers more SACDs: "How many more are going to buy?"... but my wish list still has 26 titles on it today!

[Ovation]

My wish list, at last count on SA-CD.net, has 133 discs on it. Don't tell my wife. :demon: :T

[RebelMan]

I'm sorry but this is not factually true. Sony invented DSD as an archiving format but were so pleased with it that they made investments to bring it to audiophiles. While Sony hoped for the profits from wider acceptance, it is not clear to me that they ever saw it completely replacing CDs. Much of the talk from David Kawakami was that it would be a premium product for those want to move beyond iTunes and MP3 experiences as they got older and had more disposable income.

DifferentLee,

The comments made about SACD are indeed factual. Here is an excerpt from an article that was published by MediaLine News on January 20, 2003. I have highlited a few key timeline events in bold for your reading convienience.

Cover Story

Promises, Projections And Product: A DVD-A/SACD History

Compiled by Terence P. Keegan

1996 May: The RIAA, IFPI and RIAJ form the International Steering Committee to draft a list of features they'd like to see in a next-generation recorded music format.

1997 April: The DVD Forum is established, designating one of its working groups, the WG-4, to develop an audio format compatible with the rest of the DVD family and complying with the ISC's desires.

October: A clear delineation of proposals fails to emerge for a DVD-Audio standard. Questions abound on sample/bit rate, compression schemes, surround approaches and copy protection. WG-4 projects completion of a standard by Fall 1998, with product in 1999. Sony and Philips break ranks with the Forum to announce the Super Audio CD, comprising a dual-layer "hybrid" disc compatible with both CD and (theoretically) DVD players, and a high-resolution audio technology called Direct Stream Digital, suitable for surround.

November: Warner Music Group's Jordan Rost: The popularity of DVD-Video "is going to affect [consumers'] perception of our core product, the CD." Rost hopes for a DVD-Audio standard "by next Christmas."
1998 January: The WG-4 announces DVD-Audio will accommodate up to 24-bit, 192kHz audio.

April: Sony and Philips announce plans to license the SACD "Scarlet Book" as an add-on to the Audio CD's Red Book spec. WG-4 targets summer for Version 1.0 of DVD-Audio, with players and titles available by March 1999.

September: Version 0.9 of DVD-A spec released, adding slide-show capability for songs and Meridian Lossless Packing compression; copy protection still comes up short.

1999 January: Universal Music pledges to deliver DVD-A titles in time for format launch. Super Audio CD camp plans to launch late in the year.
February: DVD-A 1.0 is approved by DVD Forum, with a new version of DVD-Video's CSS encryption still in development.

May: Sony announces its first SACD player, designed solely for stereo playback, will fetch about $5,000, with about 40 non-hybrid discs available from audiophile labels like Delos, DMP, Mobile Fidelity and Telarc.

July: Mastering engineer Denny Purcell remarks on surround work in progress: "The DVD-Audio stuff isn't anything but token." A&M Studios' Gary Myerberg speculates that record labels "are consumed with MP3, with piracy protection, with new methods of distribution. Surround music...is a very tough sell."

August: Warner, EMI and BMG push their release dates for the first DVD-A titles to late first quarter 2000. Universal states it's still trying to make Matsushita's planned October launch of combination DVD-Audio/-Video players. EMI's Jeremy Silver: "It's not going to be until next Christmas that we're going to see a major push." IBM, Intel, Matsushita and Toshiba, known together as the 4C Entity, endorse watermarking technology by Verance for use with DVD-A. Replicator trade association IRMA projects worldwide DVD-Audio disc production to approach 300 million units in 2003.

September: Denny Purcell at the San Francisco AES convention: "There's no authoring system for DVD-Audio. The things we're being told are out there by the press aren't-but we're close." Sony and Philips demonstrate the first surround SACD recordings, promising surround players and titles in 2000.

October: DeCSS, a software utility that cracks DVD-Video's encryption, is posted on the Web by Norwegian Linux geek Jon Johansen. CSS designer Matsushita and JVC postpone their planned launch of DVD-Audio players. The format is now set to debut in Spring 2000 with a newly designed encryption scheme.

December: Not waiting for new encryption, Pioneer releases its first DVD-Audio players in Japan.

2000 January: Bob Doris, president of Sonic Solutions, says a DVD-A authoring tool still cannot be made "with the operability available today for DVD-Video titles." Warner targets June for its first DVD-Audio titles.
July: Matsushita releases to audiophile markets its first "combination" players, bundled with a 13-track DVD-A sampler from Warner artists. The entry-level model sells for $999. But independent and major labels alike have yet to release any titles. On the lack of title production, one authoring house president remarks, "the silence is starting to get eerie," intimating that a forceful wave of holiday releases will be put off yet again. Warner is the only major label to now promise a Fall launch of titles. On the retail side, a salesman for New York audiophile shop Sound by Singer tells Medialine that none of his clients care about either Super Audio CD or DVD-Audio. Best Buy plans to stock just one DVD-A player model during the holiday season "to get a feel for consumer response."

September: Implementation for the 4C Entity's new encryption for DVD-A, titled Copy Protection for Prerecorded Media, is underway. Major labels wrestle with legal and royalty issues with their artists when negotiating DVD-A versions of albums.

October: SACD toasts its first year of availability, with approximately 110 stereo titles in the market. DMP releases the first four surround SACD discs. Sony begins sample shipments of an 8-channel DSD workstation to production facilities for surround title production. Philips announces its first surround SACD player, priced at $1,999, while Sony announces its first combination stereo SACD/DVD-Video player, priced at $1,500. IRMA declares some 40 million DVD-Audio discs will be replicated in 2001.

November: A team of researchers publicly boasts its crack of the Verance watermark. Warner releases its first seven DVD-Audio titles, selling for $24.98 each. The discs range from classical performances to the Stone Temple Pilots' Core. All feature a Dolby Digital version of the content that can be played on DVD-Video machines. The label expects to keep a release pace of several DVD-A titles a month. BMG announces plans to make its first DVD-A titles available in the first quarter of 2001. EMI's Silver admits that with the label trying to get an Internet music program up and running, "DVD-Audio is not our main concentration right now." Universal is now mum on releasing anything, reportedly still dissatisfied with DVD-A's copy protection.


2001 January: At CES, consumer electronics firm Apex announces plans to market in the Fall a combination DVD-Audio/Video and SACD player for $299.

February: EMI's Virgin label releases a hybrid DVD-Audio/Video disc of the Blue Man Group's Audio, and an SACD version of Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells. DTS Entertainment announces plans to release surround DVD-A titles.

April: Warner-owned Rhino focuses on revamping rock classics from the likes of Deep Purple, Alice Cooper and Emerson, Lake and Palmer for DVD-A.
May: Sonic Solutions partners with Matsushita to advance DVD-A authoring tools. Sony adds SACD manufacturing capacity to its Austrian plant, complementing its operations in the U.S. and Japan.

June: Sony reports some 250 stereo SACD titles in circulation, demonstrating the surround release of Miles Davis' Kind of Blue. With 29 DVD-Audio titles released to date, Warner talks up its surround work on classic albums from Fleetwood Mac, Van Morrison and Neil Young. Avoiding endorsement of either format, CEA president Gary Shapiro remarks about surround music, "Our challenge is to get people to experience it."

September: Universal, still with no DVD-Audio product out, announces plans to support Super Audio CD with both new and catalog releases. A label source says: "We really want to see SACD happen here as soon as possible. Corporate will not allow this to turn into another DVD-A 'forever-on-hold' scenario."

October: EMI announces it will start releasing "a full slate" of catalog titles on DVD-Audio, with albums by Al Green, Leon Russel and Eric Johnson due by year's end.

2002 January: SADiE ships its latest SACD mastering editor, providing the first commercially available authoring package for stereo SACDs. Surround SACDs continue to be mastered by just three Sony facilities.

June: Universal's first SACDs are released. According to Sony, 650 SACD titles are available worldwide, with 450 in U.S. stores. Sony adds that 155 of the domestically available titles are surround, and 121 of those are hybrid discs. Hollywood replicator Crest National announces its plan to install with Philips the first hybrid SACD manufacturing line in the U.S., expecting the line to have an annual capacity of 3 million discs. Germany-headquartered Sonopress adds to its SACD replication operations, achieving a daily capacity of nearly 25,000 discs. Independent label Abkco announces it will release 22 pre-1970 Rolling Stones albums on hybrid stereo SACDs.

July: Warner lowers its suggested retail price of its DVD-A titles to fall in line with CD list prices, roughly $16.98 to $18.98.

August: Industry analyst Understanding & Solutions projects DVD-A and SACD software sales to reach 5 million units combined in 2003, surpassing 10 million units together in 2004. The firm predicts that DVD-A and SACD players won't together penetrate even 3 percent of U.S. homes in 2003.
September: Sony's David Kawakami states that there are 750 SACD titles worldwide, with 510 additional titles making their debut from various labels in the Fall. Out of the new titles, 197 are surround. Rhino/Warner's Robin Hurley states that the label will have over 300 DVD-A titles available by year's end. Abkco's Rolling Stones albums hit stores, with absolutely no indication on their outer packages that the discs have a Super Audio CD layer. The label reportedly feared that any mention of the titles' hybrid nature would frighten consumers from buying the disc.

October: According to the DVD Forum, 780 DVD-A titles are currently available. The group releases spectacular projections for 2004, calling for 5,700 titles to be available that year, and for combination DVD-Audio/-Video players to make up 50 percent of the player market.

December: The DVD Forum announces it's considering development of a CD/DVD-Audio hybrid disc, not unlike SACD.

As you can see, Sony's position was quite clear. This article fully buttresses the statement "It (SACD) was conceived to stave off the growing threat of the DVD Forum's DVD-A format and the onslought of CD ripping (MP3s) that was impacting their bottom line." that was made earlier. 8)

You folks need to get your facts right instead of assuming prior internet discussions are factual.

So where are your facts coming from?

[csuzor]

Nice post Rebelman, thanks.

There is actually some SACD history before October 1996. As early as 1995, people were working on the specs of the SACD disk, and they knew DSD first had to be developed (including the equipment) and then they had to convince the recording industry to use it, for recording /archiving. But all along, it seems the goal was the end consumer.

from http://www.superaudiocenter.com/DemRep.htm
Philips/Sony were starting the development of a new audio format that would improve on the highly successful Compact Disc (CD), and that the project would draw on specialists in many areas: disc manufacturing, player design, IC design, error correction coding, and lossless audio compression.

Our job was to develop and build a Direct Stream Digital (DSD) recording system, and then convince studios, artists and labels of how wonderful it was. At the same time, all the specifications for what eventually became Super Audio CD (SA-CD) were being hammered out by the many specialists within Philips and Sony. On January 1st, 1996, I joined the project full-time, having worked part-time on it for the preceding few months. My job was to help install a reference listening system within Philips, track the development of the recorder, test it, assist in its use in the field, and promote both it and the format in general to labels, studios, recording/mastering engineers and consumers (though that would come much later).

and from the SA-CD white paper, same site.
Sony and Philips designed DSD to capture the complete information of today’s best analog systems.
in 1995, demonstrations of early versions of the system were conducted in the recording centers of Tokyo, Los Angeles, New York and London. DSD has been demonstrated to a broad cross section of artists, producers, recording and mastering engineers and audiophile consumers. Presentations included carefully volume-matched three-way comparisons among DSD, state-of-the-art 20-bit PCM and the ultimate standard, a live studio feed. The responses ranged from cautious optimism to unbridled I-just-heard-the-future-of-audio enthusiasm.

[RebelMan]

But all along, it seems the goal was the end consumer.

This article would seem to support your theory and I would like to believe it. However, I have a hard time accepting it at face value. If Sony really had the consumer's best interest at heart, why did they abandon the Forum? It seems to me that what they really needed was a new revenue stream. While it's true, they had to get industry buy-in to ultimately (try to) pull it off (actions taken that you might consider are in the best interest of the consumer), it appears to me that a wolf in sheep's cothing was behind it all.

[DifferentLee]

I never claimed that Sony did not also see the format competing with DVD-Audio. I think they had some real concerns about the brickwall filters in the PCM process.

Search the archives of High Fidelity Review and you will see that David Kawakami made clear statements about using SACD as a niche product and you if look at the history of DSD you will see it was originally an archiving format.

Here is some information:

"After the initial presentations by each of the panelists, Stereophile Editor John Atkinson then kicked off the question and answer session. Noting that "SACDs are all audiophiles have dreamed of for decades, how do we introduce the new benefits of this format to the next generation?" David Kawakami noted that music disc sales are actually up in the 40 and older age range and agreed that bringing the younger audience to music and discs is key going forward. He views MP3 files on the Internet as serving the same role of introducing music that radio did in the past. He believes that as young music fans grow up they will want to "own their favorite music" in a high quality format. Ying Tan of Groove Note said that getting a portable SACD player on the market will be key to interesting the younger audience in SACD."

https://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=12814164

[DifferentLee]

http://www.digidesign.com/digizine/archive/digizine_november03/mixing/

In the same fashion that most of the digital audio we work on today uses PCM (Pulse Code Modulation) technology, SACD utilizes DSD (Direct Stream Digital) technology. It's based on 1 bit sigma-delta modulation. DSD samples music at 2.8224 million times a second — 64 times the amount of a standard CD. Actually, DSD was originally developed for archiving analog master tapes. In any case, SACD is based upon a totally different technology than CDs and PCM audio.

[DifferentLee]

Sony discussing archiving...http://www.sel.sony.com/SEL/consumer/dsd/dsd.pdf

DSD in Archiving.
DSD is a superlative solution for music companies desperate to
transfer archival recordings before they disintegrate forever. T h e
unprecedented frequency response and dynamic range means
that DSD will precisely capture every nuance of the original, down
to the noise floor and below.
Archiving benefits from another important difference between
DSD and multibit PCM. In the multibit PCM world, significant
improvement means changing the digital word length or changing
the sampling frequency. And that means “breaking” established
formats and creating new ones. DSD is quite different. By
changing the characteristics of the loop filter in the analog-to-digital
c o n v e r t e r, you can actually change the audio specifications of
DSD. Some filters can be optimized for bandwidth. Others can be
optimized for low noise. Future designs with higher-order filters
and greater sophistication can yield performance beyond the grasp
of today’s technology. And this can all happen without losing
c o m p a t i b i l i t y. Older archived DSD recordings will be compatible
with the new machines. And newly archived material will be
compatible with existing hardware! In this way, DSD archives
become “future-proof.” They retain their currency, even as filter
technology makes significant strides.

[RebelMan]

First of all, the topic is about SACD, not the DSD encoding process. A derivative of PCM could have been chosen just as well. Second, by your source's own admission...

"David Kawakami noted that music disc sales are actually up in the 40 and older age range and agreed that bringing the younger audience to music and discs is key going forward."

indicates the next step of their (Sony's) long term plan to capture the mass market. It was never a niche marketing plan but its ending up that way.

I never claimed that Sony did not also see the format competing with DVD-Audio.

It was implicitly stated when you said...

I'm sorry but this is not factually true.

[csuzor]

Sony discussing archiving...http://www.sel.sony.com/SEL/consumer/dsd/dsd.pdf

DifferentLee, you are quoting part of the paper to support your arguments, but there is also this in the paper (below), suggesting that the SACD is the final goal of the DSD development. I firmly believe DSD was developed by Sony and Philips with the intention to release disks with this format, for "audiophiles and music lovers".
By the end of the year there will be >3500 sacd, about 2 releases/day, it's a niche market, but dead it isn't.

C o n c l u s i o n .
In proposing the Super Audio Compact Disc, Sony and Philips
have anticipated the full range of needs that the next-generation
music carrier must meet. No other proposal so completely satisfies
the desires of recording artists, producers, engineers, music
companies, retailers, sophisticated audiophiles and general
consumers. No other proposal achieves such high levels of audiophile
performance. And no other proposal g u a r a n t e e s c o m p a t i b i l i t y
with the nearly 500 million existing Compact Disc players and 10
billion existing Compact Discs.
Audiophiles and music lovers are seeking the next level in digital
audio reproduction. The Super Audio Compact Disc is the ideal
solution.

[csuzor]

Well, maybe SACD won't remain a niche market for much longer.
The new Sonoma-24 track pure DSD workstation looks like it will bring more new rock/pop music into SACD, as mentioned previously.
The latest is John Hiatt Master of Disaster, and there won't be a CD release, just the hybrid SACD (the way it should be!)

His words: "The exciting thing about it was this digital process that he brought in, this Sonoma thing (The Sonoma-24 Direct Stream Digital Recording and Editing System). I mean, I've been working pro-tools like everybody else and after you work pro-tools all day long, you feel like you have your head in a bucket and somebody's hitting it with a hammer. This Sonoma System, it's not like sound reproduction, it's like being in the room with first generation audio. It is the best sound I ever heard. Not only for digital media, it makes analog sound silly."

http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=16240030

[RebelMan]

Well, maybe SACD won't remain a niche market for much longer.
The new Sonoma-24 track pure DSD workstation looks like it will bring more new rock/pop music into SACD, as mentioned previously.
The latest is John Hiatt Master of Disaster, and there won't be a CD release, just the hybrid SACD (the way it should be!)

Sound's promising. Unfortunately, I don't believe there are enough of (us) audiophiles around to push it into the mainstream. Most of my non-enthusiast friends careless about CDs let alone SACDs. They prefer the convienience of downloading files or ripping CDs for their portable digital music players. There is less "value added" with hybrid SACDs then there is with DualDiscs, again for non-enthusiasts. Personally, I think hybrid SACDs have more value, musically speaking, than DualDiscs do, but then again I am in the minority.

[Rob2ski]

Sacd

The problem is getting a top artist with an anticipated release to put an album out in a high rez format. Remember the hype when Dire Straights Brothers in Arms came out as one of the first digitally recorded titles helped push CD sales. Also the 5.1 mixes when done right will convert non-audiophile types. DVDA & SACD haven't failed . The record companies have failed to support the format with titles. This is a real chance for them to curb pirating of MP3s and start selling discs again.
I am super frustrated with the whole thing. The formats would be dead already if it was not for the internet. Most record stores hardly even know what your talking about when you ask them where their high rez formats are. It is so easy to buy imports off the internet that you can find an ok selection.

[aud19]

Mediocre studio support and mediocre mixes aren't helping any high-res format are they....?

[RebelMan]

The problem is getting a top artist with an anticipated release to put an album out in a high rez format. Remember the hype when Dire Straights Brothers in Arms came out as one of the first digitally recorded titles helped push CD sales.

DualDisc, in its infancy, is doing just that but not because the music sounds better, but because it comes with videos.

Also the 5.1 mixes when done right will convert non-audiophile types. DVDA & SACD haven't failed . The record companies have failed to support the format with titles. This is a real chance for them to curb pirating of MP3s and start selling discs again.

Non-enthusiasts really don't care about multi-channel music. I consider myself to be an enthusiast and I am not that interested in multi-channel music, but I am interested in high-resolution stereo.

I believe in time the DVD side of DualDiscs will do a better job of adopting the DVD-A specification to its fullest. Until then, what I perceive as value added is really just value almost added.

I don’t believe record companies failed to support a given format. I believe they failed to see any added value, beyond copy protection, yet they promote high-resolution and multi-channel benefits. I think to mask their hidden agenda.

People want to be able to copy their CDs to all sorts of digital devices. Why should a typical consumer buy SACDs or DVD-As if they can’t make copies of them? Most consumers see no benefits in high-resolution/multi-channel audio, but they do see benefits in convenience, and that’s why iPods are hot and the other is not.

[aud19]

I did manage to copy the DD tracks off of my DVD-A's, convert to wav and burn to CD's for portability but it was far from convenient or easy! :nonod:

[csuzor]

People want to be able to copy their CDs to all sorts of digital devices. Why should a typical consumer buy SACDs or DVD-As if they can’t make copies of them? Most consumers see no benefits in high-resolution/multi-channel audio, but they do see benefits in convenience, and that’s why iPods are hot and the other is not.

Aah, RebelMan, anyone can grab the CD layer of hybrids for portable or PC usage, no problem there. You can't tell the difference in audio quality anyway on such devices, and stereo is sufficient.
We are going to see many more hybrid only releases of new music, because even if you can copy or download the CD layer (or buy an illegal copy), you're still only getting a portion of the original disk, and those who may have been satisfied with a copy of CD may now also want the sacd stereo or mch version, and will be forced to buy it.
A hypothetical situation, where an album is either released as CD only, or hybrid sacd only, would naturally lead to bigger sales for the hybrid situation, based on copy arguments above and the hungry sacd niche market... and as long as the disk manufacturing doesn't cost much more, the math is simple enough for anyone.

[RebelMan]

Aah, RebelMan, anyone can grab the CD layer of hybrids for portable or PC usage, no problem there. You can't tell the difference in audio quality anyway on such devices, and stereo is sufficient.

My point was regarding the high-resolution/multi-channel music side of the hybrids. Hybrids are the only way DVD-A and SACD can survive, that's why they are. The recording industry was hoping to avoid the inevitable or they were just plain near-sighted, otherwise they (DVD-A and SACD) would have started out that way.

A hypothetical situation, where an album is either released as CD only, or hybrid sacd only, would naturally lead to bigger sales for the hybrid situation, based on copy arguments above and the hungry sacd niche market... and as long as the disk manufacturing doesn't cost much more, the math is simple enough for anyone.

The price will almost have to be the same otherwise what is the point.

[DifferentLee]

Hybrids are the only way DVD-A and SACD can survive, that's why they are.

That assumes SACD is meant for mainstream but it is not. It is a niche format. Audiophiles don't care very much about a redbook layer.

[RebelMan]

That assumes SACD is meant for mainstream but it is not. It is a niche format. Audiophiles don't care very much about a redbook layer.

I do and I believe many others would also. Although, I would prefer SACD over Red Book if I had a choice, assuming the master/transfer were better.

Companies like Sony are in business to make money. Do you really think a niche market is in the best interest to Sony and its shareholders? I think not. No market or too little market just isn't good for business, especially one the size of Sony. Like I said hybrid disks will provide another stream of revenue and if it appeals to the masses then ultimately we will all benefit.

[Claude D D]

For me redbook playback is important as I have close to 1000 CD's in my collection and I only have 20 SACD's.I've been looking for a new CD player and had narrowed down the choices to the Krell SACD Standard or the Classe CDP-100 and have decided to go with the Krell SACD Standard.I'm not purchasing it because it plays SACD's,I look at that as a bonus.I primarilly was looking for a excellent CD player which this is.I will certainly increase my SACD collection once I receive this machine(SACD's sound amazing through this machine).I'm sure I'll get many years of audio enjoyment out of the Krell whether it's spinning CD's or SACD's. :TI plan on running 2 channel SACD/CD to my Krell KAV400xi via balanced XLR cables and the multi channel output of the SACD Standard to my Rotel RSP-1068 multi-channel inputs via single ended RCA's.

[DifferentLee]

No market or too little market just isn't good for business, especially one the size of Sony.

It depends. You have to look at all the revenue & profit streams from Super Audio and compare that to its investment in the line. Sony gets dollars from direct hardware and software sales, pro equipment sales & service, licensing income from other Big 4 labels and boutiques, and then there are intangibles from bringing a quality audio format. Also, you would have to analyze the Philips investment and what they get.

To really maximize shareholder value, Sony should reach all areas of the audio marketplace including SACD, redbook, and iTunes/MP3. My bet is that downloads will be where the growth is given the tremendous quality of the iPod. Based on my conversations with several Sony execs I believe they see hirez as a place to migrate youngsters to when they have more income. I don't think they believe it has a chance to replace redbook.

[gianni]

For me redbook playback is important as I have close to 1000 CD's in my collection and I only have 20 SACD's.I've been looking for a new CD player and had narrowed down the choices to the Krell SACD Standard or the Classe CDP-100 and have decided to go with the Krell SACD Standard.I'm not purchasing it because it plays SACD's,I look at that as a bonus.I primarilly was looking for a excellent CD player which this is.I will certainly increase my SACD collection once I receive this machine(SACD's sound amazing through this machine).I'm sure I'll get many years of audio enjoyment out of the Krell whether it's spinning CD's or SACD's. :TI plan on running 2 channel SACD/CD to my Krell KAV400xi via balanced XLR cables and the multi channel output of the SACD Standard to my Rotel RSP-1068 multi-channel inputs via single ended RCA's.

Claude,
Another integration of 2 ch and HT. This is exactly what I'm trying to do as I'm very happy with my Rotel for HT and it does pretty well for stereo but I am looking to see what improvements I can make in 2ch.

I've seen the KAV 400xi and it is a great piece. Since you sell Classe, what do you think about picking up a used Classe pre amp w/ processor loop and a 2 ch amp. I've heard really good things about the Classe preamps -- I'm talking
late 90's up till a few years ago. This would accomplish the same thing as the 400 with one more box.

I'm just concerned the 400 may be a bit bright w/ my speakers.

[RebelMan]

It depends. You have to look at all the revenue & profit streams from Super Audio and compare that to its investment in the line. Sony gets dollars from direct hardware and software sales, pro equipment sales & service, licensing income from other Big 4 labels and boutiques, and then there are intangibles from bringing a quality audio format. Also, you would have to analyze the Philips investment and what they get.

Pehaps there is some validity in this. However, many manufacturers will often take financial hits in hardware in order to promote profits in software. There are many examples of this.

To really maximize shareholder value, Sony should reach all areas of the audio marketplace including SACD, redbook, and iTunes/MP3. My bet is that downloads will be where the growth is given the tremendous quality of the iPod. Based on my conversations with several Sony execs I believe they see hirez as a place to migrate youngsters to when they have more income. I don't think they believe it has a chance to replace redbook.

The issue at hand is how SACD relates to the marketplace. I am curious to know how they conducted demographic analysis on the subject. What is the definition of young? Why should Sony concern themselves with youngsters? There appears to be some holes in this theory. I believe patents expire after 20 years to allow for fair market place competition. That could be a big incentive for Sony to replace Red Book.

[Claude D D]

I'm just concerned the 400 may be a bit bright w/ my speakers

What speakers do you have Gianni?
I was running the 400 on my Definitive Tech BP10B's and the sound had more detail with less edge than my Rotel RB-1080.
As for the Classe,it's great stuff but Krell is more my flavor.
I'm going to integrate my 2ch and HT together for now but plan on separating the two down the road.Leaving my Rotel and Def Techs to handle the HT duties and Krell KAV400xi(might upgrade to the KAV280p/KAV2250 combo if I can swing it)SACD Standard,B&W 803S's all wired up with Transparent Musicwave/link Super to handle 2ch in another room in my house.

[gianni]

What speakers do you have Gianni?

I have M&K LCR 850's. I know, I know what many people think.....good for HT but not music. I auditioned them against some of the so called "musical speakers" and just found the 850's to be a good all arounder. Eventually, I will have a second 2 ch system for music and will then get some full range towers.

I'm running them with my RSX-1055 which in my medium sized room seems to have plenty of juice especially since they are crossed over to the sub at 80 hz relieving the 1055 from driving the power hungry lower frequencies. So for HT I'm satisfied.

My thinking is that with the onboard tuner and everything else that the preamp section in the 1055 is not the cleanest. Sure, I could upgrade to the RSP-1068 for some improvement but I feel to optimize 2 ch music, I will get more imrovement by using some dedicated 2 ch gear. I think your findings with the KAV 400xi confirm this. This way I can run my music source components directly to the preamp and not even bother with the 1055 for music with the exception of the occasional multi channel mix I may listen too.

Another reason I am leaning towards the preamp is so that I can insert an M&K BMC-mini between the pre and amp to crossover to my sub. Don't know that I can do this with the 400xi. Any more thoughts? Thanks.

Also, in your experience with the 400, what did you find as far as sounstage depth? I've heard some people say it was average in this respect. When I listened to it, I was not able to compare it to another amp.