power cable project

[wkhanna]

so yesterday my gang conducted a power cable test session.

over the last few months we designed & built various pc's (power cables)

some were hand wound from various types of spool wire including pure cooper, silver tinned cooper & various gauges.
various jackets, shielding were also used.

some were just commercially available finished cable like Cardas & Neotech, which we terminated with plug-ends.

various plug-end terminals, from solid cooper to rhodium, to silver or gold plated cooper were used.

others were fully assembled audio brand, Signal Cable & Nodost, et.al.

four of us did a double blind evaluation with the help of a V tolerant & understanding wife of one of the participants.

each of the 12 cables was evaluated as we played snippets of 6 different tracks of muisc varying from orchestral, techno, jazz, a Capella, et, al.

the tricky part, as found after the test, was that rating the cables performance was somewhat difficult from the standpoint of individual tastes.
for example while a cable would display obvious differences, those differences may have been pleasing to some, but considered deficient to others.


any way, we learned a lot.
about how complicated developing a test plan is along with an evaluation criteria is, to how much & little difference there can be between cost & overall performance.

we are going to spend a few weeks analyzing the data & modifying the testing methodology, then give it another go.

[Steve Manning]

Sounds like you guys had a fun time .... out of curiosity what's in the walls behind the receptacle, upgraded wire, dedicated circuits, etc ...... I'm always curious how changing power stuff in the room interacts with what it's connected to. You never see much on that side of things.

[wkhanna]

The house has the original 15 amp service.

[Steve Manning]

The house has the original 15 amp service.

Thanks Bill ..... that's always a tough one change unless you have new construction.

[wkhanna]

Indecently, Dan will be running two audio-dedicated 20 amp lines in the V near future. The recent acquisition of two mono-block Classé amps has made that a requirement due to the higher current demands.

one quite surprising detail regarding our testing.....
we used Dan's PerfectWave P10 Power Plant.
it takes the AC input, converts to DC, then back to a 'clean' AC 60 Hz sine wave.
we inserted the power cables between the wall & the P10 & still were easily able to recognize differences. :scratchhead:


edit added:

the equipment we used for the testing was B&W 802 D2 speakers, the Classé CA-M400 mono-blocks & CP-800 pre, & the Bricasti M1 DAC fed by Dan's custom-built NAS music sever.

[Steve Manning]

Indecently, Dan will be running two audio-dedicated 20 amp lines in the V near future. The recent acquisition of two mono-block Classé amps has made that a requirement due to the higher current demands.

one quite surprising detail regarding our testing.....
we used Dan's PerfectWave P10 Power Plant.
it takes the AC input, converts to DC, then back to a 'clean' AC 60 Hz sine wave.
we inserted the power cables between the wall & the P10 & still were easily able to recognize differences. :scratchhead:


edit added:

the equipment we used for the testing was B&W 802 D2 speakers, the Classé CA-M400 mono-blocks & Bricasti M1 DAC fed by Dan's custom-built NAS music sever.

Yes, I was admiring those amps ........

One would have thought PSAudio would have provided a power cord that would be tough to better considering what the Power Plant is there for.

[wkhanna]

Yes, I was admiring those amps ........

One would have thought PSAudio would have provided a power cord that would be tough to better considering what the Power Plant is there for.

you hit the nail on the head.....

....just how does one define 'better'?
they were all different, in varying proportion & characteristic.
while the OEM PS Audio cable is robust in appearance, what they are selling is the power conditioner.
It is effective, i have had it on loan from Dan in my system a few times.

the actual GOAL was one of the tough things about the test plan to define.
so too, were the list of categories that were to be judged.

another issue was that 'expected results' were not clearly defined in our methodology.
for example, should good performance in a pc be similar to what we use to design speakers?
should a so called 'good' cable deliver a flat, even, & neutral characteristic?
a cable could have a pronounced LF, but it could be a bit on the bloated with less texture.
another could have V tight, natural timbre & texture, but not stand out in an obvious sense.
so someone who puts high value on bass performance may choose the one which is more pronounced, but less accurate.
so a flat, natural sounding cable would not necessarily stand apart or be judged as performing well in comparison to one which emphasized some other particular aspect such as sharp HF roll-off or exceptional imaging.

cables, in general, seem to act more like tone controls, or EQ devices.
as such, one can use them to shape the overall character of one's system.

the other thing was, we were surprised that some of our 'home made' cables ranked with some V 'high-end' commercial units we had in the test group.


like i said, this was a learning experinace, & we will use it to refine our methodology for the next evaluation.

one of the next steps in our little project is for me to make some objective measurements on the cables for noise rejection, capacitance, et. al.
should we be able to reliably align measured data with subjective performance.......well now.......would not that be interesting to know about?

[BobEllis]

Thanks for this. I'm particularly interested in details of your successful DIY cables. My budget won't allow the likely cost of commercial products.

Have/will you reported on a similar project with interconnects?

[csmielke]

Bill,
Great new thread topic. I built some in the past for my system using DH Labs Power Plus cables, Wattgate connectors, tech flex braided sleeving (carbon) and some heat shrink tubing. I was able to source the cable a few years ago for about $6 per foot. I think it is up to $8 now. I was building them for around $75 each so it's very cost effective. When I inserted them into the equation I noticed slightly improved clarity or what's been described as blacker background or less haze. All told, worth the effort. I am very interested in seeing your groups findings for the various designs.
Keep these system tweaks coming,
Chris

[wkhanna]

.....When I inserted them into the equation I noticed slightly improved clarity or what's been described as blacker background or less haze.......
Chris

therein is what we suspect to be a critical component of PC performance.......

......noise rejection.

[wkhanna]

Have/will you reported on a similar project with interconnects?

no, nothing regarding interconnects & no plans currently to peruse such endeavors in the near future.

[PewterTA]

Boy it looks messy! ha ha.

Yes the house wiring is just the normal wiring in the house, nothing special. The only benefit of what we did is the wall outlet the classe amps were in is the same line as the normal home theater where the other PS Audio P10 and Media PC is plugged in. So "essentially" it's all the same line. I can't wait for the two 20-amp lines to get done... hopefully in the next month or two.

Our testing basically (or our thought no testing) was that we would make everything behind the P10 regenerator the same cables (the second picture with the Purple BlackSandsAudio Violet Z1 MK2s 1.5m) as it was either using those or Nordost Red Dawn 1.5m... since those were the only ones we had enough of. I don't like stock cables so we decided to not compare against those. I've done enough to know the stock cables are never too much quality. I do wish PSAudio would throw in one of their better cables with the P10...but I understand that's a cost to do that.

The most interesting thing to me was that out of all of our designs, there was no clear winner, we all liked different cables as our #1, but in all of ours (though early analysis) we were pretty consistent on our picks that the top 5 cables made the top 5 and both 5 made the bottom 5. Well except for Bill, we learned that he graded cables somewhat differently and/or hears differently then the other three that listened.

If you look at the last picture the cables were ranked from left to right top to bottom in the picture (except for the 3 wire with maple spacers) which we all agreed was the worst of all of them...which was a design Bill was hoping would be good... so we feel bad about that.

The take aways we have from this is:

- Power cables don't sound all sound the same.
- Power cables aren't "better or worse" - they are tone controls in how they effect one's system.
- There's no "best" way to build a cable (I think there was a total of 6 different build styles).
- Quality of the copper doesn't seem to signify quality of sound.
- Why changing a cable in front of the regenerator changed things, is somewhat of a head-scratcher as to why it does.
- It may be better to test on a single piece of equipment, however my initial test before in my system this placement (between the Surge and P10) made the most noticeable change.

Overall this was a fun experiment (still on going) and it really brings some ideas into my head how to "maybe" produce a better cable at a very reasonable cost.

[wkhanna]

as Dan mentions above, my scoring did skew the curve when analyzing the summed results.

while the others may have been more focused on individual characteristics, it seems i judged more on overall flow and naturalness of the music & whether or not i felt pulled in & involved with it.

but the same five cables ended up being scored in the top five by three of the four participants, as did the five bottom rated cables.
even with my scoring included, the end result was quite similar due to the weighting of the other three participants.

so there was a consensus of sorts that bares some validity to our efforts.

ya know, now that i think about it while writing this, the fact that my 'tastes' are slightly different than the rest of the group are bared out at the audio shows we attend together.
i will occasionally not be impressed by some of the rooms the others find V pleasing, & visa versa.

but, when we hit a room like Brian Zolner's (CEO of Bricasti Design & friend of ours) filled with Tidal Piano or Agoria speakers, along with his DAC & M28 mono-blocks.......well, there are never any disagreements there!


btw, the guys obliged this crusty old fart (me) by constructing a sort of 'baseline' style cable design.
it was made from Ag/Cu wire & used cryo'ed silver terminal plugs.
each wire was separated & held by maple blocks, with the ground leg (green) run in the middle position.

it was this cable that all of the participants (including me) rated dead last!

[Norm]

"it was this cable that all of the participants (including me) rated dead last"

:-)

There is reason one does not find that architecture in the Belden catalog. Maximum loop inductance plus no measurable noise rejection is not a specification we generally ask for when calling out a cable. It would make a good antenna to radiate (or receive) radio frequency noise when plugged into or near digital components that may be leaking a bit of radio frequency interference.

The antenna function is something to keep in mind. In these power chord discussions it is always pointed out all the builder spec Romex in the wall not being the fancy wire between the wall plug and HiFi device power jack. Consider that power chord is often about 3 feet long, very close to the 39" that tunes a dipole antenna to the FM band. And of course in the packed radio frequency spectrum around us in 2017 whatever the length of that cable it will be turned to some radio frequency. And what is on that frequency will vary with location and time of day. Is it any wonder the anecdotal results can seem chaotic? The same power chord in my system in the city that fill it with RFI noise then taken to a friend's system in the country quiets down and plays nice.

[wkhanna]

Norm,

excellent feedback!
thank you.

it seems my 'baseline' cable made my point about what things wmay effect a pc for the worse.
aka, how NOT to build an audio pc.

one aspect i do not think that was previously mentioned is that all the cables we used were 4' (48").

and yes, noise from RFI, WiFi, FM, et. al., will be different in each system at different times of day.
the degree of difference will also be variable by location.

hence, some of those who try cables may hear far less difference in the same cable as someone else, whether they be next door or across the ocean from each other.

[JonMarsh]

as Dan mentions above, my scoring did skew the curve when analyzing the summed results.

while the others may have been more focused on individual characteristics, it seems i judged more on overall flow and naturalness of the music & whether or not i felt pulled in & involved with it.

but the same five cables ended up being scored in the top five by three of the four participants, as did the five bottom rated cables.
even with my scoring included, the end result was quite similar due to the weighting of the other three participants.

so there was a consensus of sorts that bares some validity to our efforts.

ya know, now that i think about it while writing this, the fact that my 'tastes' are slightly different than the rest of the group are bared out at the audio shows we attend together.
i will occasionally not be impressed by some of the rooms the others find V pleasing, & visa versa.

but, when we hit a room like Brian Zolner's (CEO of Bricasti Design & friend of ours) filled with Tidal Piano or Agoria speakers, along with his DAC & M28 mono-blocks.......well, there are never any disagreements there!


btw, the guys obliged this crusty old fart (me) by constructing a sort of 'baseline' style cable design.
it was made from Ag/Cu wire & used cryo'ed silver terminal plugs.
each wire was separated & held by maple blocks, with the ground leg (green) run in the middle position.

it was this cable that all of the participants (including me) rated dead last!

Well, that configuration is going to have a LOT of loop inductance due to the spacing of the cables apart from each other. That means it will act as an antenna to a greater degree.


My general thought and experience regarding power cables is that besides achieving reasonably low resistance, the big deal is all about RFI and suppressing pickup and providing as much common mode immunity to line noise as possible, so that common mode events are not capacitively coupled into the power of the DUT and generating signals that can be picked up in the equipment because of where the noise voltages appear. Now, there is also the possibility of issuer due to generated power modulation, too, I suppose...

This is an area I've been leaving until retirement and having more time, before really looking into it. Sounds like you guys are at the start of an interesting learning experience... :B

[wkhanna]

as always, input from The Maestro is of indisputable value!

& just to inject some humor into the discussion.....

check this out.......
the various range of cables offered are linked at the bottom of the page.

[PewterTA]

Mini round #2.

After taking our results at my house. Our friend Michael and I did a little experimentation up at Michael's system. His system is comprised of a PSAudio P5, two Odyssey Kizmet Reference monoblocks, Odyssey Candela Tube Pre, Chord Mojo Dac, Ifi Micro (I think) USB power and running off of a small laptop with JRiver. He also has a cruzeFIRST audio power outlet (which I have two of, but not in use yet) which I have to say is am amazing outlet, just putting that in his system (before any cable testing) definitely did "something" to his system. It seems to have added a level of musicality that I have no heard in my system or any of our reference systems at each other's homes. So I can't wait to install mine, but that's another thing.

We took most of the top cables ranked and did a 5 or 6 cable shootout. What we found is a couple of interesting things....

1) In a blind test for Michael, he picked his favorite cable as the same favorite cable at my place. So that's two times picking the same cable on two different systems.
2) A combination of connectors and cable make can effect the perceived sound of a system. So if you use copper connectors with good copper, it equals out to a softer/warmer/tube-like sound. If you combine silver/rhodium connectors on a Ag/Cu cable set it creates a sharper/brighter/"digital" sound.
3) A synergy of the type of connector (metals used) to the metal used in the cable is where we seem to find the cable we all prefer the most.
4) Power cables are definitely a tone control very similar to interconnects when we talk about copper vs. silver.
5) Shielding definitely is a key factor in the construction and killing off unwanted noise and interference.
6) Ferrite core filters on a cable can have a positive effect on a cable.

There are probably other observations we made, but it's getting late and I'm sure I'm forgetting things.

We did find out that we ended up liking two types of cables the most and for the cost to build them oneself, they can definitely compete/best a higher priced cable. We are at least at the moment seeing performance in the range of 4x the cost of building the cable (when we compare against those cables that we have... unfortunately some of the really nice and exotic cables we can't get our hands on to compare to as we are just having fun and limited to what our "play fund" allows.

Over all this has been a very entertaining experiment and I have definitely raised the level of performance of my own system with what I'm using in my system now. Which means I'l l be having some nice cable sales in the near future to recover the cost of purchasing cables that I do really like, but can build better for cheaper.

Who would've thought power cables can make such a difference in one's system.

[JonMarsh]

Over all this has been a very entertaining experiment and I have definitely raised the level of performance of my own system with what I'm using in my system now. Which means I'l l be having some nice cable sales in the near future to recover the cost of purchasing cables that I do really like, but can build better for cheaper.

Who would've thought power cables can make such a difference in one's system.

Well, I would figure it's possible, though I don't know that I'd expect some of the things you've reported. Still, I will follow this endeavor with considerable interest. now, if only I could afford some Schnerzinger stuff, like my friend in Munich has. I think he may be one of the best in this business... with prices to match!

[theSven]

Well, that configuration is going to have a LOT of loop inductance due to the spacing of the cables apart from each other. That means it will act as an antenna to a greater degree.


My general thought and experience regarding power cables is that besides achieving reasonably low resistance, the big deal is all about RFI and suppressing pickup and providing as much common mode immunity to line noise as possible, so that common mode events are not capacitively coupled into the power of the DUT and generating signals that can be picked up in the equipment because of where the noise voltages appear. Now, there is also the possibility of issuer due to generated power modulation, too, I suppose...

This is an area I've been leaving until retirement and having more time, before really looking into it. Sounds like you guys are at the start of an interesting learning experience... :B

Retirement has come... Another task for your list JonMarsh 😉