Report back on stereo speaker voicing investigation

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  • Scottg
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2006
    • 335

    #46
    I missed this thread as well.. ops:

    Note that the compensation curve is not unlike the reverse of the dispersion pattern for the loudspeaker. (..where the loudspeaker becomes more "omni" as freq.s lower, and is more directive higher in freq. w/ increased diffraction artifacts - even if it's not a particularly directive loudspeaker as with the Ardent.)


    There is of course an alternative:

    Aim the loudspeakers forward (no "toe-in"), and make sure that the left speaker for the listener's left ear is significantly off-axis (like 45-50 degrees) and vice-versa (..for a less directive design like the Ardent, less so for a more directive design). This usually means moving the loudspeaker much closer to the listener, but that ALSO pays "*dividends" (in several respects). Of course, it might not make for domestic "harmony". :W CAUTION: you can't spread the speakers to far apart either and still get the best results (which again, necessitates a closer listening distance to the loudspeakers). I find that about a 7 foot loudspeaker spread is usually optimal, and I usually start with them forward and then have two people if available (one for each loudspeaker), start rotating them in-ward (modest toe-in) relative to my listening position (..which I'll change a bit moving forward and backward from the loudspeakers until I get what I'm looking for). The rotation (toe-in) in this instance is because of diffraction effects which can sometimes be a bit to pronounced relative to the angle: basically looking for a "happy compromise".


    *among other things, the compensation curve/filter - tends to reproduce depth a bit better. This sort of setup adds to that with superior width reproduction (because you still have that monophonic emphasis below 1 kHz (depth), and above you've increased listener channel separation (width, including imaging separation)). You'll also get other benefits as well like intensity effects, lower distortion for a given spl, etc..

    Comment

    • sfdoddsy
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2000
      • 496

      #47
      Interesting. I’ve been wondering why some of my more recent builds miss some of the magic I had for ten years with my Orions, in spite of measuring better.

      After reading this I realised I included SL ‘dip’ on my Orions, but not on subsequent speakers.

      I’ll give it a bash on my latest test mules.
      Steve's OB Journey

      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 15259

        #48
        Originally posted by sfdoddsy
        Interesting. I’ve been wondering why some of my more recent builds miss some of the magic I had for ten years with my Orions, in spite of measuring better.

        After reading this I realised I included SL ‘dip’ on my Orions, but not on subsequent speakers.

        I’ll give it a bash on my latest test mules.
        By all means let us know how it turns out. The guy who owns my Wavecor Ardent build fell in love with them after hearing them WITH the voicing filter in the system path.

        For whatever reasons this works, and I don't think it's related to toe in but it is exacerbated with speakers that are also flat in their power response (Orions and similar dipoles) it seems to be especially critical.

        Let's just say that all my new designs are being implemented so that if all possible, there is a single switch that can switch in "flat" or "voiced". But those that listen to a lot of music made with close miking, the "voiced mode" may as well be the default or only mode. Especially if such a speaker has good off axis power dispersion, then it is not perceived as rolled off.
        the AudioWorx
        Natalie P
        M8ta
        Modula Neo DCC
        Modula MT XE
        Modula Xtreme
        Isiris
        Wavecor Ardent

        SMJ
        Minerva Monitor
        Calliope
        Ardent D

        In Development...
        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
        Obi-Wan
        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
        Modula PWB
        Calliope CC Supreme
        Natalie P Ultra
        Natalie P Supreme
        Janus BP1 Sub


        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

        Comment

        • csmielke
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2015
          • 109

          #49
          Jon,
          Sorry to resurrect this old thread but, I have a couple of questions. I have been using this modified curve via JRiver media center on my macbook pro for digital files and like it's impact. I have additional inputs in my system from my Magnum Dynalab FM tuner, Arcam universal player not to mention my turntable and would like to implement it on those inputs. My power amp is a McCormack DNA 125 which has an input impedance of 100K. Could I just duplicate half of your balanced circuit or is it much more complicated than that. Thanks for any guidance you can provide.
          Chris

          Comment

          • JonMarsh
            Mad Max Moderator
            • Aug 2000
            • 15259

            #50
            Originally posted by Dave Bullet

            I agree with all the "it encourages you to turn it up". You finally get to use your mega-watt amplification and get those woofers moving
            And that, my folks, is no small benefit!!

            😁
            the AudioWorx
            Natalie P
            M8ta
            Modula Neo DCC
            Modula MT XE
            Modula Xtreme
            Isiris
            Wavecor Ardent

            SMJ
            Minerva Monitor
            Calliope
            Ardent D

            In Development...
            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
            Obi-Wan
            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
            Modula PWB
            Calliope CC Supreme
            Natalie P Ultra
            Natalie P Supreme
            Janus BP1 Sub


            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

            Comment

            • technodanvan
              Senior Member
              • Nov 2009
              • 998

              #51
              So last night while listening to Jeff Beck (and Joss Stone) I reread this thread and decided to try and emulate this filter within Roon. Seems like someone might have had this at -4dB, but I found -2dB to be the sweet spot for most of what I was listening to. Good stuff.

              Question I have is...why not design this into the crossover, if it's what everyone seems to prefer? Or, perhaps more ideally, have a switch on the speaker itself to activate the filter?
              - Danny

              Comment

              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15259

                #52
                Those are very reasonable questions, and something I have done. But when everyone is looking at new designs and frequency response plots, they seem to always like flat, flat, flat!

                And it is easy to add and tailor externally. So, what the heck...

                I know of 4 guys with Wavecor Ardents running these modules in their system.
                the AudioWorx
                Natalie P
                M8ta
                Modula Neo DCC
                Modula MT XE
                Modula Xtreme
                Isiris
                Wavecor Ardent

                SMJ
                Minerva Monitor
                Calliope
                Ardent D

                In Development...
                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                Obi-Wan
                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                Modula PWB
                Calliope CC Supreme
                Natalie P Ultra
                Natalie P Supreme
                Janus BP1 Sub


                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                Comment

                • technodanvan
                  Senior Member
                  • Nov 2009
                  • 998

                  #53
                  That is very true, and it makes for comparing speakers a bit easier if 'flat' is the rule of thumb. How does one go about acquiring an external module though?
                  - Danny

                  Comment

                  • csmielke
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2015
                    • 109

                    #54
                    Exactly, and many of us still use single ended components and not balanced. That is why I resurrected this discussion and asked if I could take Jon's balanced circuit and just use half of it between my preamp and power amp. I would likely place it in a small box with female RCA jacks on both ends. Let's see what Jon says but, I know he is busy with so many projects going at one time.
                    Chris

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15259

                      #55
                      that will work fine. Just be careful about lead lengths after the box- use a short cable at that point, to avoid capacitive loading and potential noise pickup from AC fields.
                      the AudioWorx
                      Natalie P
                      M8ta
                      Modula Neo DCC
                      Modula MT XE
                      Modula Xtreme
                      Isiris
                      Wavecor Ardent

                      SMJ
                      Minerva Monitor
                      Calliope
                      Ardent D

                      In Development...
                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                      Obi-Wan
                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                      Modula PWB
                      Calliope CC Supreme
                      Natalie P Ultra
                      Natalie P Supreme
                      Janus BP1 Sub


                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment

                      • csmielke
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2015
                        • 109

                        #56
                        Jon,
                        Thanks for responding so quickly. The distance from my preamp output to the power amp in the rack is about 1 meter. Are you suggesting moving the box closer to the power amp?
                        I appreciate your help.
                        Chris

                        Comment

                        • Reet
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2007
                          • 511

                          #57
                          Just reading through this thread due to recent resurrection. I must say, that applying a shelf EQ arbitrarily to any speaker seems a bit silly. However, as a room EQ target, not completely out of the question, since the evaluation in the first post is in relation to sound at the listener, which isn't just direct radiation from the speaker, but includes room interaction and some influence of overall speaker power response. The curve shown in this thread isn't that indifferent from the default room curve in REW either, REW is just simplified with flat lines instead of curves:
                          Click image for larger version  Name:	image.png Views:	0 Size:	27.8 KB ID:	927849

                          My personal preference however has been for a simple -0.7dB/oct throughout for a room EQ target.​ Coincidentally, this slope provides the same "optimum" criteria mentioned in the first post, -1dB at 1300Hz, and -3dB at 10kHz, relative to 500Hz. Click image for larger version  Name:	image.png Views:	0 Size:	23.2 KB ID:	927850

                          YMMV. In any case, with modern tools like VituixCAD, REW, APO EQ, and a plethora of AVRs with EQ functions, evaluation of EQ curves and targets, and how they relate to your speakers, room and listening preference is easier than ever before. Have fun!
                          https://discord.gg/h5SuNKDJfx

                          Comment

                          • JonMarsh
                            Mad Max Moderator
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 15259

                            #58
                            Originally posted by csmielke
                            Jon,
                            Thanks for responding so quickly. The distance from my preamp output to the power amp in the rack is about 1 meter. Are you suggesting moving the box closer to the power amp?
                            I appreciate your help.
                            Chris
                            No worries, at that length, you're good to go! My typical situation is different, as I have some Ayre balanced connects that are 4 meters long going to power amps located very close to the speakers.
                            the AudioWorx
                            Natalie P
                            M8ta
                            Modula Neo DCC
                            Modula MT XE
                            Modula Xtreme
                            Isiris
                            Wavecor Ardent

                            SMJ
                            Minerva Monitor
                            Calliope
                            Ardent D

                            In Development...
                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                            Obi-Wan
                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                            Modula PWB
                            Calliope CC Supreme
                            Natalie P Ultra
                            Natalie P Supreme
                            Janus BP1 Sub


                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                            Comment

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