It's time for a Statement announcing my latest project..

[Regg]

Regg,
JUST DO IT!
I made the center - - Fantastic!
I can't wait to find the time to build the mains so I can put my multi-Thousand $ Mirage's to surround duty.

Hello David :later: Thanks for the encouragement...I hope I'll get there soon.

FYI, the current BOM total for PE and Madisound would be at about $808 before shipping, as of this posting.

[mlammert]

Question on Down-Firing Port

Hi all,

Still in my initial Statement design phase and have a question regarding a down-firing port...

A while ago Tony Gee had a design for his Soup speakers (www.humblehomemadehifi.com) where he had a down firing port and the bottom of the speaker was lifted off the floor with a flat piece of wood shaped like a "U"...

I have attached a rough drawing of this concept...

Questions:

1) Would this be an okay alternative for the Statements if I did not want to lift the statements off the floor with spikes or fire the port out the back???

2) If I were to vent the port this way, how thick/tall would you suggest the "exhaust" platform be??? 3/4", 1", 1.5", etc... This would be the actual thickness from the floor to the actual bottom of the speaker enclosure...

If I am not making sense, please let me know and I can try and describe this better...

Also, I know I have been having some specific questions as of late; should I start my own build thread now, or wait till I am actually building these???

Thanks again,
Mark

[Curt C]

Hi all,

Questions:

1) Would this be an okay alternative for the Statements if I did not want to lift the statements off the floor with spikes or fire the port out the back???

2) If I were to vent the port this way, how thick/tall would you suggest the "exhaust" platform be??? 3/4", 1", 1.5", etc... This would be the actual thickness from the floor to the actual bottom of the speaker enclosure...

Thanks again,
Mark

The concern here is essentially you are adding a port extension to the existing port. If the exhaust area is many times larger than the port area, it will not be an issue, but as the vent area ratio decreases between them, it will lower the tuning. Some experimentation would be required as you'd have to shorten the internal port to compensate for the extra port length of your horseshoe

A possible alternative would be to lose the existing round port entirely, replacing it with a slot port. (which would be your base)

I calculate a 2.25" x 8" port opening 14" long should provide the same tuning frequency as the 3" port. You'd cut a 2.25" x 8" slot in the bottom of the woofer enclosure. The top 3 of the four layers of MDF of the base (as shown on the original drawings) would be cut out as rectangular 'C' sections to form the slot port.

C

[mlammert]

A possible alternative would be to lose the existing round port entirely, replacing it with a slot port. (which would be your base)

I calculate a 2.25" x 8" port opening 14" long should provide the same tuning frequency as the 3" port. You'd cut a 2.25" x 8" slot in the bottom of the woofer enclosure. The top 3 of the four layers of MDF of the base (as shown on the original drawings) would be cut out as rectangular 'C' sections to form the slot port.

Thank you very much Curt for all this information and calculations... I really appreciate it...

The setup you have laid out makes perfect sense...

A couple questions on this:

1) Would I make the cut out in the top 3 layers of the base 8" deep??? Or should I make it shorter to take into account the 3/4" inch the port will "bend" upwards through the floor of the speaker enclosure???

2) Should I add any volume to the actual speaker enclosure since I am removing the port from inside of the speaker???

3) Along the same lines as #2, let's say I were to make the port go deeper into the speaker instead of being housed in its base... Would I want to take the dimensions of the walls of the port and the port volume and subtract that from the overall volume of the speaker enclosure???

Thanks for all the help,
Mark

[Curt C]

Thank you very much Curt for all this information and calculations... I really appreciate it...

The setup you have laid out makes perfect sense...

A couple questions on this:

1) Would I make the cut out in the top 3 layers of the base 8" deep??? Or should I make it shorter to take into account the 3/4" inch the port will "bend" upwards through the floor of the speaker enclosure???

2) Should I add any volume to the actual speaker enclosure since I am removing the port from inside of the speaker???

3) Along the same lines as #2, let's say I were to make the port go deeper into the speaker instead of being housed in its base... Would I want to take the dimensions of the walls of the port and the port volume and subtract that from the overall volume of the speaker enclosure???

Thanks for all the help,
Mark

1) Ideally, the top three layers would have a cutout 8" wide x 13.25" deep. If you made them 14" it only changes the tuning frequency about .5 Hz, so small variations in the length are not super critical.

2&3) In this instance, the difference in volume is so small it would have a negligible effect either way. -And I'm sure you meant to say your would decrease the enclosure volume if you removed the port. 8)

C

[mlammert]

Thanks for all the detailed answers, Curt... This helps me see in my mind exactly what should be going on...

And, thanks for catching my reversal of words... :P

I think I can now finalize my blueprints and hopefully start building soon...

Mark

[mlammert]

Just wanted to let everyone know I started my own build thread over here:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30977

Thanks again for everyone's help and encouragement up to this point...

Without all this I would not have had the courage to finally take the plunge and do this!!!

Mark

[cacophonix]

Has anyone in dallas or fort worth area, TX completed these speakers?
I'd love to listen to them ....

[mlammert]

I calculate a 2.25" x 8" port opening 14" long should provide the same tuning frequency as the 3" port.

Curt,

One last (hopefully) question on the rectangular port design... ops:

Can I change the width/height/depth of the port as long as I keep the internal volume of the port the same???

2.25" x 8" x 14" = 252 cu in

Could I make a port that is say 5" x 5" x 10" long???

Thanks again for all your help,
Mark

[Dennis H]

You can change the shape (within reason) but you need to keep the length and the cross-sectional area the same. If you make the area bigger, the port has to get longer to keep the same tune.

[---k---]

Jim or Curt,
Do you know what the sensitivity of the Statements are? A recent post about them sounding like the amp was topped out got me wondering (though I think there is likely an issue with that guy).

[ahaik]

Jim or Curt,
Do you know what the sensitivity of the Statements are? A recent post about them sounding like the amp was topped out got me wondering (though I think there is likely an issue with that guy).

Ryan,
I remembered this

Asi.

[Jim Holtz]

Yep, Asi nailed it. The Mini's are around 88 DB and the Monitors should be close to that.

If they were running out of power with a 100+ watt amp, they were either crazy loud or there was an issue with the crossover.

Jim

[---k---]

Asi and Jim. Thanks. That is about what I thought. I checked the first post and Curt's website and couldn't find that.

[Regg]

Excellent speakers, Asi. ;x(

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Regg,

Thanks for the awesome review! I'm glad you like the Statements as much as we do. :T

Jim

[ahaik]

Greg,

Thank you for the great review :T , it was a pleasure having you over and I appreciate the effort you made in bringing all that heavy equipment.

When I first got into the HiFi audio hobby I was very skeptical about sonic differences in different audio equipment and did not think I can clearly hear differences between amps, preamps etc..
To my surprise 8O in all cases I was hearing the same differences as Greg was.
In my eyes the Aleph J clone is several levels better then any amp I ever tried with the statements except for the Aragon 8008BB which is hard to compare just by memory. I guess an A/B comparison is needed here.
The transients in the Aleph J where amazingly fast an accurate, one moment a specific sound will be there and the then it will disapear almost instantly. This creates a very very detailed musical experience.

although the top end is perhaps a bit analytical at times

IMO this is a result of the amp being very accurate delivering what is actually recorded.
The only downside is the 35 Watt per chennel, when you want to get some serious loud base it runs out of power, although I am sure in a smaller room (my listenning room is 23'x40' with including a 17x12 room in it) for most people (including me) this would be more then enough.
Now I am even happier with my Moded Shanling CDP and looking for the next mod which would probably be upgrading the output stage vaccum tubes.

It was an enjoiable and very interesting day and although it was a long day my ears never felt fatigued at any point.

Asi.

[jagman]

Over at the IB Cult forum ThomasW always suggests building a manifold for 4 drivers if you plan on having 2. In essence, four holes are cut but two are "plugged". This is done so it's easy to add two additional drivers after the fact if you decide two just isn't enough. All you have to do is remove the "plugs" and drop in a couple drivers.

Applying that logic to the Statements, if one already has a great sub, but isn't sure if he wants to go ported or sealed with the Statements, why not build the regular ported cabinets and put in a "solid" brace at 40", but have a large enough hole pre-cut into that brace such that it could be "plugged" and "unplugged" without any repercussions to the sound other than going from a sealed to a ported design (e.g. it wouldn't change the internal volume when "unplugged" if compared to the original design). An easy way to do this is to "plug" the "H" brace at the bottom of the drawing on Post #1 of this thread. Sure, it would only drop the internal height down to ~45" instead of 40", but it would be the easiest way to do it. The system Q would probably be in the 0.65-0.67 range when sealed, yet the enclosure would be identical to the original drawings when "unplugged". If one felt inclined, he could make the "plug" several inches thick and rest it on top of the "H" brace. This of course would decrease the internal volume of the enclosure when sealed thus bringing the Q closer to Jim's recommendation. Having a "pluggable" brace would also make the speakers more user adjustable should your listening environment or ancillary subwoofer change. One would probably have to remove the lower woofer to pull out the plug, but it just might work.

What do you guys think?

[Jim Holtz]

There's nothing wrong with making them convertible from ported to sealed. It gives you more options. Sealed are also very forgiving of volume differences so a little either way won't hurt a thing.

Jim

[Curt C]

There's nothing wrong with making them convertible from ported to sealed. It gives you more options. Sealed are also very forgiving of volume differences so a little either way won't hurt a thing.

Jim

I concur with Jim's sage advice.

C

[jagman]

Good to know . Probably the easiest thing to do would be to plug the port and deal with a slightly lower Q. My IB sub has a Q of about 0.40, so sealed Statements with a Q of 0.55 (or whatever Jim said it would be) would still sound damn good. But... doing things the easy way isn't necessarily the most fun way . It's always nice to have options. I like the idea of the lower extension of the ported version becuase my sub has a pretty good sized null in the 50Hz range, so it would be nice to have the crossover set at 40Hz. This way the sub would excell in the 10-40Hz range.

[augerpro]

On the Fountek, the red terminal is positive correct (left terminal looking down on it)?

[Ray Collins]

Correct, red is positive. Depends on whether you are standing in front or back of it. My positive terminal had a ring connector with a red sleeve on it; the other terminal had a black sleeve on the connector.

Ray

[impala454]

I took a sharpie and marked a + next to that terminal as soon as I unboxed it, as the "red" is just on the connector which you end up removing at some point

[augerpro]

Ok thanks guys. I had a red and blue connector so I wasn't real sure what convention Fountek used.

[1Michael]

Never assume that drivers are properly marked. Take a 9 volt battery and connect it to the driver. When the driver goes Out, the lead on the positive of the battery is the positive lead. You will save yourself some aggrevation checking it :T

[impala454]

Oh cool I never knew that. Though that method wouldn't work too well on a ribbon tweeter

[Gusta]

Side Firing RL-p12? (Sealed Version)

After looking at CBS's setup, I'm wondering if this may be an option in order to build a single cabinet that is the same width throughout? The internal volume would be quite small, however; about 1.17 cubic feet to keep the ribbon at 38", using a 3" base. However, their site (http://www.soundsplinter.com/rlp12_s...formation.html) claims that as little as 0.95 cubic feet is acceptable. Thanks.

[Hdale85]

Can use the battery from your cordless drill as well. What I used to do back when doing car installs to check wiring.

[NPE]

Hi! Just a quick question, what would be the smallest room you would put them in? I've heard big speakers don't play nice in small rooms... The room they'd go in is somewhat small about 10x17 (around 1400 cubic feet), but it would be somewhat temporary as I'm planning to move soon. How would that work?

[Jim Holtz]

Hi! Just a quick question, what would be the smallest room you would put them in? I've heard big speakers don't play nice in small rooms... The room they'd go in is somewhat small about 10x17 (around 1400 cubic feet), but it would be somewhat temporary as I'm planning to move soon. How would that work?

NPE,

The Statements work fine in smaller rooms as long as you can have the back of them 18" or more away from the walls.

Jim

[Ray Collins]

Jim,
Do the mini statements require the same space (18" or more) from the back of the wall?

Ray

[Jim Holtz]

Jim,
Do the mini statements require the same space (18" or more) from the back of the wall?

Ray

Hi Ray,

The Statements and Mini's will both sound best with 18" or more of room behind them. They can be used as close as 12" but 18" sounds better.

The Close wall version of the Monitors was designed for a distance of 12".

HTH

Jim

[Gusta]

First Build

Hi everyone,

I decided to go ahead and give this a shot, even though my woodworking skills are limited. I'm confident I can make the straight cuts very accurate, but unsure about the driver cutouts and rounded corners. I'm assuming both require a router? I am the type of person that has the patience to read up and practice before diving right in. I don't have that many woodworking tools, so I guess I'll need the above plus some sawhorses, clamps, etc...

What caught my attention about this design was the dynamic capability of the Statements; this is the most important aspect for me, most likely due to my background. I was an "audiophile" (late 70's/early 80's) turned musician/recording engineer (late 80's/late 90's). I haven't done any of it professionally in a while and am wanting to get back into the "listening for pleasure" stage.

I believe I have a high WAF, but I don't think she realizes how big they are. 8O However, they still will not be as tall as the big screen they'll be next to, so at least that may soften the shock. :P

I'm still on the fence about veneer vs. piano black. I do have some painting experience, but no veneer experience. I did just read Jim's thread about the paint booth, so that's encouraging, and may sway my decision. Plus, I'm thinking black is a safer bet to go with a wood entertainment center we don't have yet (because the veneer may clash with the entertainment center). Any thoughts on this?

Thanks to all for contributing to this resource. This could turn into a new hobby...

Dominic

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Gusta,

Welcome to HT Guide. I hope you are as happy with the Statements as I am. I find them to be very dynamic with a huge soundstage so they work extremely well for both home theater and music.

Gloss black is a huge pain to do and get satisfactory results. It becomes an unbelievable amount of work and it also is quite expensive because of the amount of materials it takes to get the surface prepared properly before shooting the paint. See my response to Chuck in the paint booth thread for the process I followed.

You will need a plunge router and Jasper Jig to do the round overs and cut the driver recesses. A couple options if you don't want to invest in the tools are to do 45 degree angles on the front baffle and take the baffles to a carpenter shop for the driver recesses.

Good luck with the build. Please post questions and pictures in a separate build thread and we'll do our best to help you out.

Jim

[Gusta]

Hi Gusta,

Welcome to HT Guide. I hope you are as happy with the Statements as I am. I find them to be very dynamic with a huge soundstage so they work extremely well for both home theater and music.

Gloss black is a huge pain to do and get satisfactory results. It becomes an unbelievable amount of work and it also is quite expensive because of the amount of materials it takes to get the surface prepared properly before shooting the paint. See my response to Chuck in the paint booth thread for the process I followed.

You will need a plunge router and Jasper Jig to do the round overs and cut the driver recesses. A couple options if you don't want to invest in the tools are to do 45 degree angles on the front baffle and take the baffles to a carpenter shop for the driver recesses.

Good luck with the build. Please post questions and pictures in a separate build thread and we'll do our best to help you out.

Jim

Thanks, Jim

I really like the black stain over veneer too, so maybe I'll end up doing that.

I don't mind investing in the tools; I foresee doing more projects in the future.

Dominic

[---k---]

If you don't want to mess with veneer, but like the black satin over veneer look, consider using high quality baltic birch plywood and then just staining it. It can come out looking very nice.

My LineUpD4:


CJD's MTM


You will get the look of plywood along the edges. I kind of like the stripped edge look, but not everyone does. But, going this way is a heck of a lot easier than veneer or gloss black.

High quality 13-ply void free baltic birch ply will run you 2x - 3x the cost of MDF. But, it is stiffer and a hair lighter - both good things. It also creates a lot less dust. Menard's usually carries it. Or do a google for a "hardwood" store in your area that sells fancy wood for furniture makers.

Or you can take the real easy route and just paint them a thick coat of latex paint like I did my Khans. My wife is happy enough with them.

What ever you decide, I'm sure you'll love the Statements.

[Gusta]

Hey Ryan,

Thanks for the tip. I'll definitely keep it in mind. What about resonance? I guess with that many plies, resonance becomes minimal?

[---k---]

The high quality stuff I used is 13-plys with no voids in the middle. It ran me ~$60 a sheet. No resonance problems within the ply itself. And, it is stiffer.

[Curt C]

Hey Ryan,

Thanks for the tip. I'll definitely keep it in mind. What about resonance? I guess with that many plies, resonance becomes minimal?

the modulus of elasticity for the baltic birch will be higher than MDF, pushing the panel resonance frequency higher. If it is outside of the passband of the driver, it will not be an issue, but within the passband may tend to ring more than products with higher internal damping. Applying some sort of damping material such as mass loaded vinyl to the inside of the panels will likely prove beneficial.

C

[evilskillit]

Questions about BoM

The BoM calls for 4x 3.9uf caps but looking at the x-o schematics I only see 1 3.9uf cap per x-o. So do I really need 4 of them or is that a type-o?

[Jim Holtz]

The BoM calls for 4x 3.9uf caps but looking at the x-o schematics I only see 1 3.9uf cap per x-o. So do I really need 4 of them or is that a type-o?

Nope, not a typo. Two of the 3.9's are paralleled with the two 56's to create the 60 uF caps in the woofer section. Actually 59.9 uF.

Jim

[synthguy]

Hi. I'm the guy evil is going to be making the Statements for. I was wondering about bypass caps. The legendary Tony Gee uses small bypass caps to smooth out all but the highest end caps in his speaker designs. And he has a pre-amp project that says it uses bypass caps in the circuitry. How would those implemented in a crossover design such as for the Statements?

[Jim Holtz]

Hi. I'm the guy evil is going to be making the Statements for. I was wondering about bypass caps. The legendary Tony Gee uses small bypass caps to smooth out all but the highest end caps in his speaker designs. And he has a pre-amp project that says it uses bypass caps in the circuitry. How would those implemented in a crossover design such as for the Statements?

Hi Synth guy,

I like nice caps. However, I have difficulty hearing the differences in speaker crossovers between very good caps like the Janzens and the really expensive caps like Tony is playing with. Your choice of course. It can't hurt a thing if you match values. You'll get the most improvement in the ribbon section. I've heard Clarity SA's on the ribbons and they are very nice.

Jim

[synthguy]

Thanks for the reply, Jim.

I'm very impressed with the Jantzen caps, especially the Z series, which evidently perform comparably to some truly expensive caps from other companies.

As an audiophile who understands that every link in the audio chain matters, the goal is clarity and what I like to call "thereness," so I'm not going to skimp on the components in the signal path. I'm considering some expensive caps on the Neoteks and Tang Bands, because I want to give the speakers every advantage in digging out all the details and displaying them in a sweet spacious field. I have a videogame CD I love to play on the stereo, Panzer Dragoon for the Sega Saturn, and it has a track that has an odd but intriguing synthesizer line that runs through it. Unfortunately, the way the track is mixed, that line is muddled by most speakers. Only high end speakers like the B&W 802s - very sensuous but ungodly expensive - or Sonus Fabre speakers have been able to sort the track out properly. And everything was as clear as a bell and imaged like I was there at the recording.

That's what I want out of the Statements, and I have faith in you that you selected drivers which can work that kind of magic, so that an orchestra can sound like a group of violins and violas, and not just a vague but pleasing string section.

As you pointed out, switching something even like a digital cable improved the sound of your Statements, which is the one thing which usually produces the smallest changes, even with many high end cables. Now some are just insanely detailed, and I'm definitely looking to get those VH cables myself to use for one link or another, even for my Bravia LCD TV. I can't see how high end caps wouldn't make any difference, especially when they're in the signal path.

The Jentzens are definitely my first choice, but adding in four of the Mundorf Silver/Oils or Clarity Cap MRs wouldn't bump the budget up all that much, and I'm determined to have that thereness I crave. It's not that high a price, all things considered.