It's time for a Statement announcing my latest project..

[Jim Holtz]

I may be building a pair of these for someone but will probably be doing sealed cabinets with a sealed side-firing 15" driver for a single, tall slim cabinet. That being said, would there be any negative affect to making the cabinets a few inches deeper? I just want to make sure that it's not going to have a negative affect on the mids if the tunnels are several inches longer.

Hi Brian,

Per Curt, there is some room for a deeper cabinet since the mid crosses to the woofers at 350 Hz. If I remember correctly, 22" deep was max. That is very deep!

Keep us posted. Did you ever make it to Wade's to hear his?

Jim

[Jed]

I may be building a pair of these for someone but will probably be doing sealed cabinets with a sealed side-firing 15" driver for a single, tall slim cabinet. That being said, would there be any negative affect to making the cabinets a few inches deeper? I just want to make sure that it's not going to have a negative affect on the mids if the tunnels are several inches longer.

Adding length to a "tuned" transmission tunnel will theoretically add a bit of fullness below the Fc of the bandpass section- how much this will impact the summed response remains to be seen, after measuring of course. :B That said, I don't think the tunnel behind the mids in this design is tuned to any "specific" frequency, but it does have a set path length sound travels around the back of the enclosure and then to the listener. I'd imagine the same rules apply about the added path length, which in turn would mean a slightly fuller upper bass/lower midrange given the same X-over. If measurements aren't available, you could experiment with different densities of fill behind the mids to suite your tastes or try a slightly smaller bandpass cap, etc.

That said, how much depth are you talking? If it is an extra inch or so I wouldn't worry about it.

[Jim Holtz]

Cool beans....OK, I gotcha on the mid-tunnels too. :T I'll try the 1" open cell first and then if I have some sonic barrier left over I may fiddle with it too.... My original thought for using the thinner 3/4" Sonic barrier foam in the mid-tunnels was two-fold; I have my speakers about 5' from the front wall (~3.5' from the backs to the wall) and I have fairly extensive room-treatment..(for DIY room treatment: wall panels, bass-traps etc: http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/index2.htm) ...so my thought process was to try the thinner foam in hopes that there would be a slight increase in mid "presence" to compensate for the extra distance and the room treatments.

OK, here's another (maybe weird?) question.... In your opinion, would it be destructive to the sound if I tried to achieve a "best of both worlds" :W kind of bass.....Combining both sealed and ported woofers... I ran some #s really quickly and at first blush it seems that the volumes might work out nearly ideally? My thought was to "tack" a removable piece of MDF on top of the upper mid tunnel (temporarily sealed in there with mortite/rope caulk) so the top woofer was effectively in a sealed enclosure and the bottom woofer was ported. I love the punch of sealed and the heft of the ported enclosures....any thoughts? I've not seen or read of this before...is this a big sonic "no-no"?

One more thought. I think either you or Curtis had mentioned that you listen primarily with your speakers facing straight ahead and thus you designed the vertical centers of the tweets, mids, and woofs so they'd all be aligned. Is there a resource that you could refer me to so that I could read-up on this, please? I usually listen with my speakers aimed at or near the listening position, so should I consider sliding the tweets/mids off-center or is that not worth consideration? (my last DIY towers had the mids horizontally offset from the tweet/woofer centerline.)

Thanks again! !!!SOON!!!

Best!

Doug

Hi Doug,

I'll try to answer your questions.

The reason, I suggested sticking with 1" foam was because Sonic Barrier will have greater dampening than the 1" foam. I thought it might kill the mids a bit. This is an easy thing to do so play with it and let us now what you think.

The sealed RS225 on top and ported on the bottom is an interesting question and one I can't answer. I've been a sealed bass fan for years but I find the ported alignment in the Statements just incredibly tight. Curt really did the bass right. That said, my friends sealed Statements sound wonderful. Maybe someone else can add some insight.

Driver spacing - Sorry, you'll have to keep the driver spacing and alignment as designed or it'll screw up the crossover. Yes, you are correct. I'm the one that doesn't like to toe in my speakers so I always design for smooth response off axis rather than on axis which requires offset drivers. You'll find the Statements will have all of the presence and smoothness you're looking for with them positioned straight ahead instead of toed in. Play with it and see what you think.

I can't point to a specific resource to read. That knowledge was passed on to me by experienced crossover designers.

Good luck on the build. Please post pictures in a separate build thread so we can follow your progress.

Jim

[Brian Bunge]

This guy already has the quad RS 15" HO subwoofer I built him, but he wants true full range mains without having to use the subs for music. He's currently got the same Legacy's that Jim's friend did who built the sealed Statements and subs.

Jim, no unfortunately I did not get a chance to hear Wade's. I may try to go over for a visit in a few weeks if possible.

EDIT: BTW, what's the F3 of the ported enclosure? You have the RS225's in roughly 100L, right?

[Jim Holtz]

This guy already has the quad RS 15" HO subwoofer I built him, but he wants true full range mains without having to use the subs for music. He's currently got the same Legacy's that Jim's friend did who built the sealed Statements and subs.

Jim, no unfortunately I did not get a chance to hear Wade's. I may try to go over for a visit in a few weeks if possible.

EDIT: BTW, what's the F3 of the ported enclosure? You have the RS225's in roughly 100L, right?

Hi Brian,

The F3 ported is 34 Hz. Vs. about 50 Hz. sealed. Honestly, the bass is great ported for music. I do have a 15" sub that I roll in for home theater but I really don't feel I'm missing anything in music. I used to own Legacy Signatures too so I'm very familiar with the speakers. They have some mid bass "slam" that the ported Statements won't have but can be dialed in with sealed Statements and built in subs. I might add, that slam is due to exaggerated mid bass in the Sigs. It is fun, especially on rock music, but it's not as accurate as the typical well designed DIY speaker.

If you built the Statements sealed, you can reduce the cabinet size to as low as 11 1/2"W x 38"H x 15"D (1 1/4" front baffle) for the RS225's and still have a .707 alignment. If you're building in subs, height quickly becomes an issue. The ribbon needs to stay at ear height of course. You might consider a 12" sealed sub built into each cabinet with a LT circuit added for the extremely low bass to reduce the cabinet volume requirements. One of the companies we don't discuss offers this as an option.

Please keep us informed about this project. It sounds like it would be extremely nice.

Jim

[agrippa]

[/QUOTE] I didn't think I saw you at the Iowa DIY event last fall. The statements and Mini statements were both there. [QUOTE]
Yeah, I had a conflict with my other crazy hobby... Civil war reenacting. I will read this whole thread over the next few days.

[Brian Bunge]

Jim,

Thanks for the response. I passed it on to him and will see what he has to say. In th end I'll build whatever he wants but I want to make sure it meets his needs at the same time.

[Jim Holtz]

Jim,

Thanks for the response. I passed it on to him and will see what he has to say. In th end I'll build whatever he wants but I want to make sure it meets his needs at the same time.

Hi Brain,

If he wants some 1st person feedback, have him email CBS (Chris) who had the same setup as your friend. Chris can tell him exactly what to expect with the Statements Vs. the Sigs.

Jim

[Brian Bunge]

Jim,

Thanks, will do!

[agrippa]

Question on a sub match: With the TC1000 gone now, what would people use for a nice match? Dayton RS subs?

[impala454]

I am also curious about this... I was thinking of putting an Elemental Designs 19Ov.2 18 incher in the bass bin when I get around to them.

[Jim Holtz]

Hi guys,

The RS390's or RS315's would both work well. Check out the DIY section at AVS for some other low distortion sub recommendations.

I would suggest a low distortion metal cone sub in a sealed configuration for optimum integration. I would also mate the subs with an amp that has a true 24 DB crossover. The RS225's go low enough that you really don't want a lot of sub contribution to the mid bass. The dual RS225's have great mid bass and a sub will muddy it unless its steeply rolled out, IMHO. I would not recommend some of the monster subs the home theater fans love. They may crack plaster but I wouldn't want them contributing to a music system at all. Again, IMHO. :B

Since the optimum crossover will be around 40 Hz. ported subs will work and you shouldn't be able to localize the sound. However, going sealed/sealed is just so darn easy and sounds so good, its always my preference. YMMV...

Jim

[impala454]

Hey Jim, say I am a stubborn bass head and wanted the "plaster cracker" ED sub , would it be a better idea to build the sub separately and go with the standard ported statements instead? I would probably be about 80/20 theater/music anyhow.

[Jim Holtz]

Hey Jim, say I am a stubborn bass head and wanted the "plaster cracker" ED sub , would it be a better idea to build the sub separately and go with the standard ported statements instead? I would probably be about 80/20 theater/music anyhow.

Hi Chuck,

Yes, I would absolutely recommend that. The statements have a F3 of 34 Hz. without room gain. You'll not miss anything on music with ported Statements, IMHO. I sure don't. I also roll in a 15" sub only during home theater for the couch shaking action. It works great that way. :T

Jim

[Brian Bunge]

Jim,

Do we know what the sensitivity of the Statements is rated at?

[Jim Holtz]

Jim,

Do we know what the sensitivity of the Statements is rated at?

Hi Brian,

They're around 89 DB and an easy load to drive.

Jim

[agrippa]

Jim,
What was the load?

[agrippa]

Also, It is too bad that PE doesn't maintain old posts. Many links in the early part of the discussion to PE board are no longer valid.
Oh well.
By the way. I think my wife will let me put these in the house. She has some requirements that I may post on in the future... apearence stuff. I think she is glad these are small :T . SHE THINKS 5 footers are small now...Yes my victory is nearly complete.
However, the 7 footers I built for the church had to stay in my workshop... needless to say I spent many hours listening to music in the workshop.

[Jim Holtz]

Jim,
What was the load?

Hi Paul,

Here's a link to the impedance chart on Curt's website. They do dip to 4 ohms around 80 Hz. and a 2K but it's well above that at all other frequencies. Any good amp or reciever shouldn't have a problem.

Jim

[agrippa]

Jim,
Thanks. this might be a better link: http://www.geocities.com/cc00541/sta...onsesplots.JPG
Yours link was to some very small pics... But I found it. Great site.

[agrippa]

Concern:
I have heard that ribbons have a problem with metal fatigue. Usually after a year or two. There is a loss of air and openness.
Any thoughts about this.

[Jim Holtz]

Concern:
I have heard that ribbons have a problem with metal fatigue. Usually after a year or two. There is a loss of air and openness.
Any thoughts about this.

Yep, it ain't true. There are lots of opinions concerning ribbons but the bottom line is the sound. You can measure until there's no tomorrow but ultimately, you turn off the measuring equipment and listen. To *MY* ears and many other highly respected designers, ribbons simply sound more like the original source.

I've had my line arrays for 3 years and they've played hundreds of hours of music and Home Theater. They sound as good today as when I first listened to them.

I'm not sure who told you that but I'd like some proof of their assertion.

Jim

[agrippa]

I read it in an article: The article was an interview of Colin Whatmough of Whatmough audio. I think it is a high end company out of Australia. He discusses ribbons and other tweeters at one point.

I don't think he offers up any proof. I figure he is like many other designers... they all have their opinions and prejudices. Example: Some love metal cones and others hate them.

I was just curious about this. Personally I like the sound of ribbons but I haven't had too much experience listening to them.

[Jim Holtz]

I read it in an article: The article was an interview of Colin Whatmough of Whatmough audio. I think it is a high end company out of Australia. He discusses ribbons and other tweeters at one point.

I don't think he offers up any proof. I figure he is like many other designers... they all have their opinions and prejudices. Example: Some love metal cones and others hate them.

I was just curious about this. Personally I like the sound of ribbons but I haven't had too much experience listening to them.

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the source of the info. I hope that I didn't come across too strong but I do have some very firm opinions about ribbons. I love the sound of them.

Just an FYI about the Fountek NeoCD3.0 ribbons we used in the statements designs. They have a more robust ribbon than the other brands which makes them much more durable. They are shipped with out covering and can pretty much be handled just like a dome. If something should happen to the ribbon, Madisound can replace the ribbon element and make them as new.

The ribbons I have in my line arrays are of the larger less robust variety of ribbon element but there hasn't been any difference or fall off in their high frequency response to the best of my knowledge. If there have been any changes, they're inaudible. also, Madisound can replace the ribbons in them too.

I don't have any qualms about ribbon durability what so ever. Common sense prevails and you'll have no problems.

HTH

Jim

[Dennis H]

Yeah, I don't think metal fatigue is a valid issue with the ribbons. With their corrugated design, there's no tension to speak of on the ribbon and the movements are tiny. They can be damaged by zapping them with LF or by blowing hard on them (the pure aluminum ones anyway) but that's a matter of straightening out the corrugations and making them sag in the gap and nothing to do with metal fatigue.

[agrippa]

Jim,
You didn't sound too strong. Thanks for the additional information. I am trying to decide my next project and all the info I can get is good. I just finished a project last night and I am looking for my next challenge.
Also, thanks Dennis...

[Coconutout]

guys i have a serious problem with my speakers. i dont think its the statements and i really hope its not but you never know.. the thing is, whenever i would have the volume down to the lowest possible, i would only hear the music from the right speaker. so i thought it was the preamp, changed it to a brand new rotel that i got and am trying to sell back, and with the rotel's lowest volume, the music is still only on the right side. so i changed the amp to a rotel (package deal that i got with the preamp) and its still on the right side, i also got a new dac so i changed that out and its still on the right side. so i started switching out the interconnects. and guess what- if i swap left and the right from the preamp, so does the sound. but this happens to both preamps, both dacs, and swapping the speaker cable left and right still moves the sound. so what is going on? this is very baffling. and when the music is at a listening level, i can tell the imaging is being affected by the volume difference.

[ahaik]

guys i have a serious problem with my speakers. i dont think its the statements and i really hope its not but you never know.. the thing is, whenever i would have the volume down to the lowest possible, i would only hear the music from the right speaker. so i thought it was the preamp, changed it to a brand new rotel that i got and am trying to sell back, and with the rotel's lowest volume, the music is still only on the right side. so i changed the amp to a rotel (package deal that i got with the preamp) and its still on the right side, i also got a new dac so i changed that out and its still on the right side. so i started switching out the interconnects. and guess what- if i swap left and the right from the preamp, so does the sound. but this happens to both preamps, both dacs, and swapping the speaker cable left and right still moves the sound. so what is going on? this is very baffling. and when the music is at a listening level, i can tell the imaging is being affected by the volume difference.

Try swapping the left and right speaker cables (at the speaker end), if you still get music only from the right speaker there is a problem with the left.
If it switches to the left then the problem is before the speakers.
HTH,
Asi.

[Coconutout]

the left speaker is not mute. just much quieter than the right one to make it so that the imaging is all messed up. i tried everything. all new equipments, swapping out all the cables and the sound is always louder at right- (unless i swap the left from right on any components that come after the dac) with the dac outputs it doesnt matter, but when i swap the interconnects on preamp out, the volume difference changes also. same thing when i swap the input part on the amp. same thing when i swap the cables from the amp. i havent swapped out the cables on the speaker end since i would have to lift up all my rugs to get at them. but i would think its the same thing as swapping them out from the speaker out on the amp (which i have done) and the result would be the same i assume. this is driving me nuts. i cannot isolate the problem. what is going on?!!!!!

[impala454]

is the amped un-intentionally running in bridged mode or something?

[Jim Holtz]

Coconutout,

Asi is correct. Swap speaker cables. If the muted sound switches speakers, it's in the electronics not the speakers. If you don't want to tear up your carpeting, go to one of the home stores and buy some cheap speaker cable for testing purposes. Then you'll know for sure where it's coming from.

Jim

[ahaik]

Coconutout,
It sounds to me that the problem is the DAC or the cables between the DAC and Pre-Amp, did you try new cables ?
Try to connect a DVD (or CD) player instead of the DAC and new RCA cables.

Asi.

[Dennis H]

Edited: Tell us a little more about the cable swapping you did between the DAC and preamp. You said it made no difference if you swapped the DAC end. Did you also try swapping the preamp end of those cables? If one of the DAC-preamp cables was bad, swapping the DAC end wouldn't shift the sound but swapping the preamp end would shift the sound.

[agrippa]

Box sizes and cosmetics

I am planning on building 2-3 sets of mains. One for me, one for a friend, and perhaps one for my dad. So I need to make sure this is right. Maybe this is the design I will go with... I am leaning this way. It is funny that cosmetics is the biggest issue. Normally it is not a problem.
I am convinced these sound great. Everyone I meet at the Iowa event in 2006 says they sound great so that is Great. Hey, can I say great some more.
I love the set up, time and effort of the Curt and Jim and others, the box design, and the choice of parts...
HOWEVER:
I have a few road blocks.
1: Center channel speaker space at my house is an area that is 9.5 inches tall. This is a FIRM number and I can not change it. 9.5"!!! So, I have have to redesign/modify the box. Even so, I am not confident that i can get those drivers to fit. The Tweeter on top of the mid leaves almost no room to spare.
2: The mains: Size is great (ha). The wife approves as she is glad they are not 7' tall. But, she likes slim and deeper boxes. So, can I change the box dimensions with little affect(slimmer but deeper)? I am most concerned with the Mids. I tend to like the slimmer look also.
3: My friend, a rock musician, likes a more traditional mtmww look. I fear that this change could put the mids and tweeter a bit too high or leave a weird blank space about the top mid. But, people like what they like.

Well now all I need is the money. I would most likely start with the Center channel if I can get it to fit.

[Jim Holtz]

I am planning on building 2-3 sets of mains. One for me, one for a friend, and perhaps one for my dad. So I need to make sure this is right. Maybe this is the design I will go with... I am leaning this way. It is funny that cosmetics is the biggest issue. Normally it is not a problem.
I am convinced these sound great. Everyone I meet at the Iowa event in 2006 says they sound great so that is Great. Hey, can I say great some more.
I love the set up, time and effort of the Curt and Jim and others, the box design, and the choice of parts...
HOWEVER:
I have a few road blocks.
1: Center channel speaker space at my house is an area that is 9.5 inches tall. This is a FIRM number and I can not change it. 9.5"!!! So, I have have to redesign/modify the box. Even so, I am not confident that i can get those drivers to fit. The Tweeter on top of the mid leaves almost no room to spare.
2: The mains: Size is great (ha). The wife approves as she is glad they are not 7' tall. But, she likes slim and deeper boxes. So, can I change the box dimensions with little affect(slimmer but deeper)? I am most concerned with the Mids. I tend to like the slimmer look also.
3: My friend, a rock musician, likes a more traditional mtmww look. I fear that this change could put the mids and tweeter a bit too high or leave a weird blank space about the top mid. But, people like what they like.

Well now all I need is the money. I would most likely start with the Center channel if I can get it to fit.

Hi Paul,

I'll run through you questions and see if I can answer them.

1. There's no way that the center can be reduced 2" in height. The mid and the ribbon measure close to that without considering the 5"x5" tunnel behind the mid. It would require a tweeter like Jed used in his line up series. Jed's Line Up center design would be a possibility, however you'd loose the open back on the mid and have different woofers.

2. Yes, you can change the main cabinet width a "little" without too much impact. When I say a little, I'm talking a 1/2", perhaps 1" max. The depth isn't nearly as critical as width to the crossover.

3. The MTMWW format would not only change the look, it'd require a crossover redesign. That has been addressed before. If he's really adamant about it, the RS 3-ways you heard at the 2006 Iowa DIY event might be a better option. Regardless, the ribbon or tweeter should be at seated ear height for best sound.

Sorry, I've not had many answers you wanted to hear but the design works really, really well as is. Minor changes can be absorbed but the issues you've raised are major rather than minor ones.

Jim

[agrippa]

O.K.
1. This is the problem... I will have to think on this.
2. Sounds good
3. No big deal.

I will get back to you on this later
Thanks

[Jim Holtz]

Hi everyone,

There is now a link to Curt's website for a CAD drawing of the sealed Statements cabinets on the 1st post, courtesy of Drew and Brian Walter. Drew took Brian's Autocad drawing and modified it for the sealed cabinet. It is complete with cut list.

Happy building!

Jim

[zjason]

Hi Jim, or others that have built the sealed statements.

Question - what did you use to stuff / line the cabinet for sealed version?


Thanks!

[Jim Holtz]

My friend Chris (CBS) used 2" wedge foam from Foam by Mail and lined the RS225 chambers same as I did with my ported version. 1" foam is still preferred in the mid tunnels.

I like foam because of it's usability. However, fiberglass offers better absorption rates. Hold back from the front baffle a couple inches or so regardless of what material you use.

Jim

[zjason]

Thanks Jim!

I found the 2" wedge foam available in Canada (ebay - foambymail_ca) at a very reasonable price.

I think this will make a neater installation than the fiberglass.

I am slowly making progress on the cabinet construction right now, I have the center channel almost dry assembled and all the pieces cut for the mains. I will post a few progress pictures when there is more to see than some boards and holes.

Attached is the look I hope to achieve. I used birch plywood and will stain a red mahogany color and the same black MDF sides.

[coyotetu]

Curious, would the Statements/Mini's/center be partial to a certain amplifier topology, class A/B, class H, or otherwise?

[Jim Holtz]

Curious, would the Statements/Mini's/center be partial to a certain amplifier topology, class A/B, class H, or otherwise?

Any quality amp will drive them fine. Class A is the cream of the crop but oh so expensive. I like class A/B amps personally. There are other topologies available that I'm sure would work fine but I don't have any experience with them so I won't comment. I would suggest 100 watts minimum for best performance, however. More is better. :T

HTH

Jim

[coyotetu]

Ah, hadn't heard of Class A, I suppose they're just that expensive (I've only looked at the middle range). Considering the Emotiva XPA2 & XPA5, I was previously considering an MPS-2, but this seems to be a better value. As long as the Statements didn't have some preference for Class H, I'll be getting the Class A/B combo.

[Jim Holtz]

Ah, hadn't heard of Class A, I suppose they're just that expensive (I've only looked at the middle range). Considering the Emotiva XPA2 & XPA5, I was previously considering an MPS-2, but this seems to be a better value. As long as the Statements didn't have some preference for Class H, I'll be getting the Class A/B combo.

I power mine with an Emotiva LPA-1 and it handles them effortlessly. However, I'm lusting for a XPA-5. :B

BTW, Class A starts at something over $4,000 AFAIK. BIG money...

Jim

[CupCak3]

I am also drooling over the XPA-5 but when working out the economics of buying an MMC-1/XPA-5 now and then getting an upgraded set later it did not make sense when I just got an Onkyo 805 shipped to my door for $575 (especially considering no one knows how good the LMC-2 will really be)

Once some reviews come out and the demand has settled, I'm sure they'll run some package deals and I'll jump on a set. (if the reviews are good enough to warrant an upgrade )