Saint-Saëns planar- AKA SMJ-40- time for a project now?

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15259

    #46
    Well, the sensitivity isn't really the same, but there are some advantages- note the Wavecor Ardent, for example! I had a friend message me about this, who knows I'm into speaker stuff, but doesn't know any details, even though he's an engineer (actually my original hiring manager for Siemens Semiconductors, which became Infineon technologies, the company I retired from).


    But anyway, he's seen an article about the Magico M2 (~$56K a pair) and wondered why I didn't just buy a pair of those instead of stuff like my Audio Precision analyzer and other tools and equipment. And posed the question, how could anything an amateur DIY person do compare at all? A reasonable point of view for a layman...

    Occasionally I have paralleled 8 ohm drivers, but I try to be careful about the actual driver impedance, and then there's what's going to happen with the actual crossover in place, which usually makes things worse.

    So, I'm going to attempt to "briefly" (ha ha, when ever I say that, run for the exits) describe the consequences of some design choices and the issues that creates...


    The Wavecor Ardent is the "2nd" generation Ardent design I did; the first one was patterned much more closely after the Avalon Indra, and if you're familiar with it, you'll get the family resemblance. The Wavecor Ardent is kind of like a lovechild of the Avalon Indra and the Avalon Time, but with a stricter upbringing.

    Let's just compare impedance curves for now... they're sort of important, because most amplifiers do have some degree of interaction with the load impedance, unless you've got some brutes like my Halcros or Cambridge Edge W's.


    Avalon Indra Impedance curve (from Stereophile magazine)

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    Magico M2 Impedance curve (from Stereophile magazine)


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    Wavecor Ardent Impedance curve


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    Now, I don't even have to bring up vacuum tube amps, there are any number of medium to low feedback solid stage designs that will have significant "issues" with the upper two plots.

    For the Wavecor Ardent, not only did I use 2 - 4 ohm woofers in series, I also made a number of topology adjustments to the crossover configuration to assure a relatively well controlled curve; as you can see here, the impedance varies between 8 and 5 ohms over the range from 60 Hz to 20 kHz.

    As you can guess, this was not accidental, but I believe it's played into the reason why the Wavecor Ardent became a much more popular design than I expected, considering it's not inconsiderable BOM cost. Many users with all kinds of gear have gotten very pleasing results, but have also noted that the design responds very well to other system upgrades.











    the AudioWorx
    Natalie P
    M8ta
    Modula Neo DCC
    Modula MT XE
    Modula Xtreme
    Isiris
    Wavecor Ardent

    SMJ
    Minerva Monitor
    Calliope
    Ardent D

    In Development...
    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
    Obi-Wan
    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
    Modula PWB
    Calliope CC Supreme
    Natalie P Ultra
    Natalie P Supreme
    Janus BP1 Sub


    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

    Comment


    • JonMarsh
      JonMarsh commented
      Editing a comment
      Just to be mean, I’ll post some SPL measurement comparisons later- gotta get some exercise in now!
  • duvixan
    Member
    • Sep 2012
    • 54

    #47
    But is it harder to achieve such flat impedance with paralled woofers? Or telling of Magico's and Avalon lack of ellegance?
    This is Troels' Disc-4, for example:


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    Comment

    • JonMarsh
      Mad Max Moderator
      • Aug 2000
      • 15259

      #48
      First, consider that most 8 ohm woofers are not 8 ohm woofers... DCR is usually 6 ohms, and sometimes lower. A few are around 8. Why is this critical? Because in the upper bass, say 100Hz to 250Hz, the driver impedance, the motor impedance + DCR, is at a minimum, and that's where with the additional parallel crossover impedance combined results in impedance curves approaching 2 ohms, well under 3 ohms, as you can see from the plots of the Magico M2 and the Avalon Indra.

      Now, a driver like the Accuton AS190-6-251 is actually 10 ohms minimum impedance in the upper bass- this means paralleling them is far less of an issue, and with care, like in the Akira, or the Kurosawa, paralleling 3 is possible.


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      The Accuton AS168 is quite similar-


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      Now, as to the Troels Disc-4 system, note he is combining two different drivers in very different enclosure volumes, and pushing the "upper bass" driver FB up fairly high to around with the small enclosure volume of 16L for the upper woofer, it will be about 72Hz, not dropping back to it's minimum level until about 300Hz, while being around 6.5 ohms (by calculation in Unibox) at 200Hz. This eases things for the parallel impedance, but now the minimum impedance occurs at the port tuning frequency for the low bass woofer, about 27 Hz, where upper woofer has dropped to about 6 ohms. Now, as "8 ohm" woofers go, the DCR of the 26W/8534 is a bit higher than typical, at 6.5 ohms.

      Now, it is a bit curious to me to have an upper woofer in concert with a 10" woofer that is pretty clean to 1kHz, but I suspect the real reason for this configuration is to address the floor bounce variations in room response that occur with just a single woofer.

      This is a high value driver combination for the most part, though $200 for the 10" woofer is pushing it a bit... but the net result Troels agonizes justifiably about is the inherent expense of a three way crossover if quality components are to be used to get good sonics from the drivers. My experience mirrors his, that if you are going to parallel high grade caps with mid grade parts to get a cost compromise solution, you need 25-35% high grade caps.

      the AudioWorx
      Natalie P
      M8ta
      Modula Neo DCC
      Modula MT XE
      Modula Xtreme
      Isiris
      Wavecor Ardent

      SMJ
      Minerva Monitor
      Calliope
      Ardent D

      In Development...
      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
      Obi-Wan
      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
      Modula PWB
      Calliope CC Supreme
      Natalie P Ultra
      Natalie P Supreme
      Janus BP1 Sub


      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

      Comment

      • duvixan
        Member
        • Sep 2012
        • 54

        #49
        it is a bit curious to me to have an upper woofer in concert with a 10" woofer that is pretty clean to 1kHz
        His stated goal was to improve the bass dynamics, transient and "punch", and smoother transition to the midrange
        He introduced it with this project http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ATS-4.htm

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15259

          #50
          And that sounds like compensating for issues that a basically flat 10" woofer has as a single radiating point, (I.E., floor bounce) when any position he chooses for that one woofer is something of a compromise.

          Troels has developed some nice systems, but he uses more "HiFi verbiage" than I am comfortable, describing the subjective result desired, but saying little about why it occurs. It would be illuminating to see measurements of each woofer separately- and talking about transient punch isn't really addressing the physics of the design, IMO. If his initial placement for the 10" woofer results in floor bounce causing comb filter effects in the upper portion of the response, (fairly likely) then adding a second driver placed higher from the floor will have a different floor boundary interaction and may fill in the null area from floor bounce. That's physics.

          In a predecessor project to the Isiris and Ardent, I did exactly that, with a dual SS 10" woofer setup, and discovered things about how the response varied just depending on the height of the driver array off the floor. This was the Modula Xtreme, which has a fairly long topic thread that dates back to early 2010.

          The original cabinet design concept, with a waveguide tweeter and Accuton C173-6-090 midrange, and dual SS 10" woofers:

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          This was measured and developed in a relatively small apartment living room. At time of this pic, I was checking near field response of the upper woofer. These were a special ScanSpeak part with high Qts designed for use in a smallish enclosure using series capacitor tuning element.


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          In room measured response- to get good LF info, a relatively long window is required, which picks up a lot of wall/boundary reflections. This was measured at 1M, which is not representative of the normal listening distance.


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          In consideration of my X1 SLAM Klone build, I "adjusted" the height of the system using another Dayton cabinet, empty, underneath.


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          Now, with the original stack setup, the measured response started getting pretty weird out at 2m or so in room. But with this setup, the first pass, keeping the original crossover, was fairly interesting at 2m...


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          The crossover was updated, with very satisfactory results sonically and measurement wise.


          ​​​​​​​Now, these days we have tools that support diffraction and boundary effect modeling (VituixCAD) but in 2010, there wasn't anything like that around- just had to do it the hard way- in the real world.


          the AudioWorx
          Natalie P
          M8ta
          Modula Neo DCC
          Modula MT XE
          Modula Xtreme
          Isiris
          Wavecor Ardent

          SMJ
          Minerva Monitor
          Calliope
          Ardent D

          In Development...
          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
          Obi-Wan
          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
          Modula PWB
          Calliope CC Supreme
          Natalie P Ultra
          Natalie P Supreme
          Janus BP1 Sub


          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

          Comment

          • duvixan
            Member
            • Sep 2012
            • 54

            #51
            His reasoning for separating them and using different enclosures "My thinking here is primarily to improve the 100-200 Hz range by a dedicated bass driver in an aperiodic or closed cabinet with a smooth roll-off towards lower frequencies delivering a fast and dry bass and then having the 10C77 dealing with the rough part of pumping low-end bass"

            Presumably, a woofer that's tuned to go as low as possible cannot maintain the speed and transient to reproduce superior midbass, that's why the closed box 8"

            Comment

            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 15259

              #52
              Now, you KNOW I'm going to come back with some comments on that-

              🤣




              "My thinking here is primarily to improve the 100-200 Hz range by a dedicated bass driver in an aperiodic or closed cabinet with a smooth roll-off towards lower frequencies delivering a fast and dry bass and then having the 10C77 dealing with the rough part of pumping low-end bass"

              So, what's implied here is using the sealed box with a small volume to provide a low frequency roll off for the 8" woofer, then match that with a crossover on the 10" woofer to provide a complementary response curve to the upper woofer...


              This is the calculated response profile for the 22W8534 in 16L- this gives the high pass function.

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              Now, looking at the LSPCAD plotted transfer functions, you can see for Net 4 (the 26W/8534G00) that crossover SEEMS to be at around 100Hz, however, note that the upper woofer response calculated from his measured data (not shown) and the network for Net 3 indicates output pretty flat down to. about 60Hz, and this may be partially due to interaction between the L3011 and the Fb impedance peak. Now, I'm curious about the actual tuning of the 26W/8534G00 with it's dual ports, because if you look closely at the calculated LSPCAD response, it seems to be dropping rapidly below 60Hz, and he doesn't show data below 50Hz, which would normally be mini-monitor territory. But I'm pressed for time to get ready for a 650mile drive tomorrow, so I'm not doing any more Unibox analysis today.


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              This isn't surprising given the measured response from the two woofers:

              22W

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              26W

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              Now, for the life of me, I don't see how the 26W is handling the low bass, and the 22W is handling the upper bass, based on these measurements, and the LSPCAD calculation of the total system response from Troels shown above, since their contributions at 50-60Hz are nearly equal, and both drop like a rock below that.


              Now, this statement from Troels I'm in full agreement with:


              What cannot be seen is what kind of bass performance we get in a given room. Bass performance is highly dependent on in-room placement of your speaker and the same speaker can be boomy in one place and lean in another. Actual SPL level at 1 meter distance and 2.8V input is useful for en estimate of system sensitivity and combined with the impedance profile may give an idea of how powerful an amplifier is needed to drive the speaker to adequate levels.
              What measurements do not tell is the very sound of the speaker unless displaying serious linear distortion. The level of transparency, the ability to resolve micro-details, the "speed" of the bass, etc., cannot be derived from these data. Distortion measurements rarely tell much unless seriously bad, and most modern drivers display low distortion within their specified operating range.​

              This is why boundary analysis and setup methods such as the Cardas method, (using mathematical geometry) or the Wilson Audio method (using reciprocal response evaluated by ear or instrumentation) aren't just useful, they are "musts" in my opinion, and when I've persuaded other HTG members to try them out, they wind up in agreement about this.

              This statement below, though, is partially problematic for me, as it implies that it's just not possible to ascertain any of this from measurements...



              Many people put way too much into these graphs and my comments here are only meant as warning against over-interpretation. There are more to good sound than what can be extracted from a few graphs. Every graph needs interpretation in terms of what it means sonically and how it impacts our choice of mating drivers, cabinet and crossover design.
              What measurements certainly do not tell is the sonic signature of the drivers, because cones made from polyprop, alu, Kevlar, paper, glass fiber, carbon fiber, magnesium, ceramics or even diamonds all have their way of colouring the sound.​
              I agree that to ascertain it from HIS measurements may be quite difficult... but there are good reasons why more intensive measurements are quite useful, and quite useful for making evaluations and selection BEFORE you get to the listening stage... one can well characterize the acoustic behavior of those different cone materials, as well as that of different surround and suspension designs.

              Just ask firms like PuriFi and BlieSMa for example. And ask me why I bought an Audio Precision APx555.


              I don't think I've ever seen Troels do a distortion measurement, even just a simple swept sine evaluation, much less a multi-tone, or to examine sine bursts near potentially problematic areas like that edge resonance I suspected for the 26W.

              Of course, now, I realize I don't make part or most of my living doing this like Troels does, and I've only been doing this since the late 70's, so he may have a leg up in experience. And I don't have an engineering degree, my formal education is in psychology. And I have a bad habit of looking closely at details and pointing out stuff others may not have wanted pointed out- a number of PhD's at my former employer have had to put up with that from time to time.

              And I am a moderator, and should be more diplomatic, and also shouldn't allow a thread to go this far off topic.

              ​​​​​​​But it's an interesting discussion, and I find it's rare that a thorough discussion doesn't clarify some things at some point.

              ​​​​​​​One last point- for a reflex system, the Q of the overall alignment has a big impact on the step transient response- Unibox is a good tool for studying that. The cleanest ported reflex or PR step response will be for something more like a QB3 alignment- oddly, I don't see this issue discussed very often. I just had some 1:1 online messaging about this regarding potential subwoofer configurations and what I would recommend to get something close to critically damped response with a long throw driver. It wasn't the sort of alignment you usually see, but then the same lessons apply to speakers in a conventional frequency range.

              Now, last goofy comment, going back to your idea of series 4 ohm drivers, and keeping to the same volume limitation as this Troels design for the LF, using two RSS210HF-4 in series in 65L net sealed will give you an F3 of 39Hz, an Fb of 36Hz, and an F6 of 30Hz- with good room placement, using Cardas technique, they will measure flat at the listening position to 30Hz due to boundary reinforcement. You'll need some more volts, though, but the impedance will be much higher.


              And the LF step response will be quite "awesome", settling in about 12 msec. Keep in mind a step excitation covers a wide frequency range, from essentially sub sonic on up.

              For the Saint-Saëns system design with PR's, the PR's are down in output by over 20dB when you get to 50Hz, the actual woofer level is down only 2dB at 40Hz. System Fb is 23 Hz and F3 is 26Hz. So the response basically goes an octave lower than the 8" + 10" design.

              And that brings us back to our design concept, with 4 of the RSS210HF, because the extra two drivers increases apparent sensitivity by 3dB for the impedance and another 3dB for the additional acoustic radiators. Puts in in reasonably competitive turf.

              Now, I've gotta finish packing AND go through a sprinkler controller manual and trouble shoot some stuff!


              the AudioWorx
              Natalie P
              M8ta
              Modula Neo DCC
              Modula MT XE
              Modula Xtreme
              Isiris
              Wavecor Ardent

              SMJ
              Minerva Monitor
              Calliope
              Ardent D

              In Development...
              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
              Obi-Wan
              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
              Modula PWB
              Calliope CC Supreme
              Natalie P Ultra
              Natalie P Supreme
              Janus BP1 Sub


              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

              Comment

              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15259

                #53
                Originally posted by duvixan
                Presumably, a woofer that's tuned to go as low as possible cannot maintain the speed and transient to reproduce superior midbass, that's why the closed box 8"
                To paraphrase the old saying, "follow the physics".

                The basic "speed" of step response is a function of the extension of the frequency response. But, considering the crossover points for the woofers, to achieve clean response on the upper end simply means ones needs to be able to hit the target response of the filter function that sums to the correct system response. Let's keep in mind that woofers are bandpass elements- and the "filter" alignments of the highpass (low frequency roll off in the mind of a speaker builder) have a lot of impact on energy storage and settling time compared with the upper range response, though as we've seen with so called Subwoofer drivers, they often have specific frequency response and distortion issues.

                Both driver measurements by Troels are showing a dip in the response at 300Hz, which could be a function of the enclosure baffle shape and the effective baffle step behavior. Based on manufacturer data, it's not intrinsic to either driver.



                22W/8534G00

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                26W/8534G00


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                Both have "speed" or upper transient response well in excess of requirements for their intended frequency range, and a review of the specifications shows the motors are essentially identical as regards T/S parameters, which are the building blocks for the low frequency high pass element of the band pass response. The 10" driver has an aluminum cone with higher SD and MMs, but the BL force factor has been tuned so that the effective Wes and Qts and Xmax are nearly identical.

                The closed box factory recommendation for the 22W is 48L, giving an F3 of 52Hz. I don't get that using the DS parameters; in 48L, I'm seeing an Fb of 49Hz, but an F3 of 61Hz, because it's a bit over damped- it's not a B2 alignment, with a Qtc of 0.707, but a with a Q of 0.581. For a Butterworth 2 alignment, with a Qtc of 0.707, it's looking more like 24L. For a true critically damped alignment, a Qtc of 0.5, it requires about 95 dB, which also is a monkey coffin! Note, with either one, the settling time to a few percent is about 12ms.

                The closed box factory recommendation for the 26W is 82L, giving an F3 of 39Hz.

                The factory recommendation for vented for the 22W is 99L, with an Fb of 30Hz. This actually gives a response peak at about 36Hz, and a very sharp cut off, with a 0.36 dB dip in the range 50-70Hz. The F3 is 27 Hz. The settling time to a few percent is about 45-50msec, compared with 12ms sealed. This is a function of the corner Q with this driver's T/S parameters, the size of the enclosure, and the tuning.

                Alternatively, a vented alignment I would suggest, with an enclosure volume 60L, and an Fb of 30Hz still, an F3 of 34 Hz is obtained with no peaking or local minima in the response. The driver still maintains loading from the vent down to 30Hz, but the output level down low is reduced, relatively wise considering the Xmax. Note, curiously, this is the size of the enclosure volume used by Troels for the 26W.



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                ​​​​​​​The vented box recommendation for the 26W is 173L, giving an F3 of 22Hz. Now, that's what I call a monkey coffin, no, actually a gorilla coffin! And it will have a very sharp corner and high Q and more ringing in the LF step response. Not recommended.


                ​​​​​​​When I get back from travel I'll model the 26W, or I leave that as a homework assignment for anyone interested!









                Last edited by theSven; 19 May 2023, 10:36 Friday. Reason: Update text size to be consistent for those with less than good eyes :-)
                the AudioWorx
                Natalie P
                M8ta
                Modula Neo DCC
                Modula MT XE
                Modula Xtreme
                Isiris
                Wavecor Ardent

                SMJ
                Minerva Monitor
                Calliope
                Ardent D

                In Development...
                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                Obi-Wan
                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                Modula PWB
                Calliope CC Supreme
                Natalie P Ultra
                Natalie P Supreme
                Janus BP1 Sub


                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                Comment

                • duvixan
                  Member
                  • Sep 2012
                  • 54

                  #54
                  Boy, I managed to derail the thread a bit with that Disc-4 remark. I apologize.
                  Should've mentioned the Illuminator-7751 as a better example, with 2x18WU in parallel

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                  Comment

                  • JonMarsh
                    Mad Max Moderator
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 15259

                    #55
                    One other thing I notice is the overall voicing of the design-a considerable down tilt.


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                    Between 60-70 Hz and 15kHz there is an overall down tilt in the modeled system response of about 5 dB. Much of this occurs between 60Hz and 1kHz. The midrange driver measured on axis appears to have a baffle diffraction issue around 1100 Hz or so, with a dip in the curve of about 2.5 dB.

                    An interesting thing is that the crossover function on the 26W driver is a bit like a bass boost function, not exactly like a 0.5 driver function, because it's tuned lower. The mid is rolling off between 700Hz and about 250Hz as a function of baffle step mainly... the high pass filter doesn't seem to much kick in until below 250Hz, and all three drivers seem to be contributing to output 150 Hz area- there isn't enough from the 26W. It would be fun to model this in VituixCAD if one knew the values, but you can only find out by buying the kit.






                    the AudioWorx
                    Natalie P
                    M8ta
                    Modula Neo DCC
                    Modula MT XE
                    Modula Xtreme
                    Isiris
                    Wavecor Ardent

                    SMJ
                    Minerva Monitor
                    Calliope
                    Ardent D

                    In Development...
                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                    Obi-Wan
                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                    Modula PWB
                    Calliope CC Supreme
                    Natalie P Ultra
                    Natalie P Supreme
                    Janus BP1 Sub


                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15259

                      #56
                      Originally posted by duvixan
                      Boy, I managed to derail the thread a bit with that Disc-4 remark. I apologize.
                      Should've mentioned the Illuminator-7751 as a better example, with 2x18WU in parallel

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                      Or Seas CNO-4, with 2xW18
                      Good examples, hitting 3 ohms in the upper bass area- I'm presuming these are all in parallel, right?

                      Those Illumintors are nice drivers, I've experimented with them, I think I have a pair of the 18WU/8747 aluminum version somewhere in storage, but the price does tend to scare folks off. And the paper one has a wicked high breakup mode, plus an edge resonance issue at about 1100 Hz. The Aluminum version has an even screwier top end, but it doesn't seem to have the edge resonance of the paper version. I was really interested in these because it's an exceptional underhung design and the motor should be very linear even with a fair amount of excursion, though the surround seems a bit narrow for 9 mm Xmax. That will impact Cms linearity with travel- that was one of the drawbacks of the Anarchy long throw mid woofers.

                      the AudioWorx
                      Natalie P
                      M8ta
                      Modula Neo DCC
                      Modula MT XE
                      Modula Xtreme
                      Isiris
                      Wavecor Ardent

                      SMJ
                      Minerva Monitor
                      Calliope
                      Ardent D

                      In Development...
                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                      Obi-Wan
                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                      Modula PWB
                      Calliope CC Supreme
                      Natalie P Ultra
                      Natalie P Supreme
                      Janus BP1 Sub


                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment

                      • duvixan
                        Member
                        • Sep 2012
                        • 54

                        #57
                        but the price does tend to scare folks off
                        Yes, 2x18WU/8741T00 in parallel (~700euro/side) for <400hz range seems rather opulent for most, especially with so many excellent and cheaper 8" woofers available

                        Comment

                        • duvixan
                          Member
                          • Sep 2012
                          • 54

                          #58
                          But as a side note, Troels stood firm by his 8"+10" approach, and used it a few times in subsequent designs:

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                          And even 10"+12", with same principle:

                          Click image for larger version

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                          http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ATS4-HE.htm


                          Click image for larger version

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                          Though he lately came out with very different designs and constant claims the latest being the best yet... so no one knows what he really thinks...
                          I shall stop derailing now.
                          Last edited by theSven; 19 May 2023, 10:45 Friday. Reason: Added images of these speakers in the event they are retired and the links break

                          Comment

                          • JonMarsh
                            Mad Max Moderator
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 15259

                            #59
                            Though he lately came out with very different designs and constant claims the latest being the best yet... so no one knows what he really thinks...
                            I shall stop derailing now.​
                            Hey, I did my part to contribute to derailing!

                            Last comment is that I think the 8 + 10 idea could work, but could be better implemented with different drivers and changes to the design.

                            ​​​​​​​
                            the AudioWorx
                            Natalie P
                            M8ta
                            Modula Neo DCC
                            Modula MT XE
                            Modula Xtreme
                            Isiris
                            Wavecor Ardent

                            SMJ
                            Minerva Monitor
                            Calliope
                            Ardent D

                            In Development...
                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                            Obi-Wan
                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                            Modula PWB
                            Calliope CC Supreme
                            Natalie P Ultra
                            Natalie P Supreme
                            Janus BP1 Sub


                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                            Comment

                            • JonMarsh
                              Mad Max Moderator
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 15259

                              #60
                              Slow work takes time....

                              OK, this is going to be the boring period of this topic, waiting for me to get things done...

                              I've made an in-feed table, I'd call it a real Frankenstein monster, but it's not nearly that scary...


                              Think combining a sit-stand desk for small computers...

                              Click image for larger version

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                              With a SawStop ST36 extension table top....



                              Click image for larger version

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                              The rib design on the underside of the extension table top is a perfect layout for gluing to the computer table... put the two together with some marine epoxy, and Voila!


                              Click image for larger version

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                              It has a substantial range of height adjustment...



                              Click image for larger version

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                              And has no trouble supporting reasonable weight, like this Optima car battery for my FJ Cruiser.




                              Click image for larger version

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                              Of course, the proof is in the pudding, so I did a test feed ripping 4 maple panels yesterday with my SawStop, and they all came out dead nuts on the very skinny lines on my metal rule for 8.5"- I doubt they're off by even 1/64"


                              Click image for larger version

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                              After doing a full cutting plan this morning, two more 563D panels were ordered today from Piano Showcase.


                              I'd say something cute like, "Progress is our most important product", but Steve is not AT ALL happy with GE these days, so they are on our official "banned from the ranch" list.













                              Attached Files
                              the AudioWorx
                              Natalie P
                              M8ta
                              Modula Neo DCC
                              Modula MT XE
                              Modula Xtreme
                              Isiris
                              Wavecor Ardent

                              SMJ
                              Minerva Monitor
                              Calliope
                              Ardent D

                              In Development...
                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                              Obi-Wan
                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                              Modula PWB
                              Calliope CC Supreme
                              Natalie P Ultra
                              Natalie P Supreme
                              Janus BP1 Sub


                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                              Comment


                              • theSven
                                theSven commented
                                Editing a comment
                                Dare I ask what happened with GE?

                              • JonMarsh
                                JonMarsh commented
                                Editing a comment
                                Steve's warranty support on his 1 year old GE refrigerator has been just plain awful...

                              • theSven
                                theSven commented
                                Editing a comment
                                I had that same issue with Samsung for a microwave... Not near as bad as a refrigerator though. I hope the situation improves @SteveManning.
                            • JonMarsh
                              Mad Max Moderator
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 15259

                              #61
                              I get private messages now and then about precision and setup in wood cutting- basically, acknowledging that they know CNC is the way to go if possible, but so few folks can access. So, the question is, how close can one get, say, just a wires and sparks guy like me? And of course, this is quite relevant to this project, as the materials I've chosen to work with are quite expensive and the last thing you want is yield loss... so the choice of measurement and marking setup, as well as execution with specific tools is fairly important... for ripping, crosscutting, and other operations.

                              So, the question boils down to, how close?

                              This close... target is 24".

                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Crosscut precision.jpg
Views:	678
Size:	779.5 KB
ID:	937532
                              the AudioWorx
                              Natalie P
                              M8ta
                              Modula Neo DCC
                              Modula MT XE
                              Modula Xtreme
                              Isiris
                              Wavecor Ardent

                              SMJ
                              Minerva Monitor
                              Calliope
                              Ardent D

                              In Development...
                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                              Obi-Wan
                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                              Modula PWB
                              Calliope CC Supreme
                              Natalie P Ultra
                              Natalie P Supreme
                              Janus BP1 Sub


                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                              Comment

                              • technodanvan
                                Senior Member
                                • Nov 2009
                                • 998

                                #62
                                I'm sure that most know by now, but if you are interested in this project now may be a good time to purchase the subs, mids, and tweeters (if you're using the GRS model) from Parts Express - 12% off through Memorial Day with code MEMDAY2023.

                                I bit the bullet - Full PE version of the SMJ-40 will be here in a week, as well as a few extra parts for the new NatP. I really hope I do something with the 20 10" Dayton PRs and 14 8" subs I have now...my wife probably hopes I do too.

                                That reminds me JonMarsh , do you still have Unibox models for the SMJ-40 using the Dayton RSS265-PR? I'm pretty sure you had modeled it before settling on the Seas. Mostly curious how much of a volume change is necessary, if at all. I can run it myself if you don't have that anymore.
                                - Danny

                                Comment


                                • JonMarsh
                                  JonMarsh commented
                                  Editing a comment
                                  Welcome to the RSS210HF-4 club! You're nipping at my heels for the number of RSS210HF-4 on hand- I "only" have 8 RSS265PR's on hand, but I have 8 of the Seas SL26R XM003, also.
                              • JonMarsh
                                Mad Max Moderator
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 15259

                                #63
                                I never toss any info on a project in progress- will get that to you later today when I have access to my Mac Studio
                                the AudioWorx
                                Natalie P
                                M8ta
                                Modula Neo DCC
                                Modula MT XE
                                Modula Xtreme
                                Isiris
                                Wavecor Ardent

                                SMJ
                                Minerva Monitor
                                Calliope
                                Ardent D

                                In Development...
                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                Obi-Wan
                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                Modula PWB
                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                Natalie P Ultra
                                Natalie P Supreme
                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                Comment

                                • JonMarsh
                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 15259

                                  #64
                                  But, with the right weights, they’re essentially interchangeable
                                  the AudioWorx
                                  Natalie P
                                  M8ta
                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                  Modula MT XE
                                  Modula Xtreme
                                  Isiris
                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                  SMJ
                                  Minerva Monitor
                                  Calliope
                                  Ardent D

                                  In Development...
                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                  Obi-Wan
                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                  Modula PWB
                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                  Comment

                                  • JonMarsh
                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 15259

                                    #65
                                    Keep in mind the net LF enclosure target volume is 110L. The weight target for either PR is 350g; this requires adding one 75 gram disk to the SL26R XM003, or two 75 gram disks on the RSS265PR (it comes with 5 disks, so you actually have to remove 3 before using the PR).

                                    Though the PR parameters are not identical, they're not very far off, and this is a comparison of the Unibox calculated response for 2.83VRMS with either PR in 110L. Note, this is the new version of the SL26R, the XM003 suffix.


                                    RSS265PR


                                    Click image for larger version

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                                    SL26R XM003


                                    Click image for larger version

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                                    If you would PM me your email address, I can send both Unibox files.


                                    The SL26R has a longer linear throw and theoretically a more linear Cms. It's also shiny, and cost more, but I got a pretty good deal with the wholesale account I have with a European distributor, buying 8 at once.

                                    the AudioWorx
                                    Natalie P
                                    M8ta
                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                    Modula MT XE
                                    Modula Xtreme
                                    Isiris
                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                    SMJ
                                    Minerva Monitor
                                    Calliope
                                    Ardent D

                                    In Development...
                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                    Obi-Wan
                                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                    Modula PWB
                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                    Comment

                                    • theSven
                                      Master of None
                                      • Jan 2014
                                      • 855

                                      #66
                                      Originally posted by technodanvan
                                      I'm sure that most know by now, but if you are interested in this project now may be a good time to purchase the subs, mids, and tweeters (if you're using the GRS model) from Parts Express - 12% off through Memorial Day with code MEMDAY2023.

                                      I bit the bullet - Full PE version of the SMJ-40 will be here in a week, as well as a few extra parts for the new NatP. I really hope I do something with the 20 10" Dayton PRs and 14 8" subs I have now...my wife probably hopes I do too.

                                      That reminds me JonMarsh , do you still have Unibox models for the SMJ-40 using the Dayton RSS265-PR? I'm pretty sure you had modeled it before settling on the Seas. Mostly curious how much of a volume change is necessary, if at all. I can run it myself if you don't have that anymore.
                                      Thanks for saving me some money this weekend Danny! I made the plunge... I will have Steve Manning put me in the queue to cut the cabinets at a later date. At least I could save a little now though 🤔. I left a comment on the parts on why I ordered too.

                                      Click image for larger version

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                                      Painter in training

                                      Comment

                                      • technodanvan
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Nov 2009
                                        • 998

                                        #67
                                        Nice! I might have Steve Manning make me the baffles for mine...haven't decided yet what materials I'll use though. Was kind of thinking about keeping this as low cost as possible, so MDF all around except maybe Baltic Birch baffles. Might wrap in 1/4 hardboard again though...we'll see. You must be going for the higher end version with the other tweeter. Great idea on the messages, I did not think of that! Wonder if I can go back in to complete that...

                                        Do you know where you'll use these? I don't really see them replacing your mains in your theater. I only ask because I have absolutely no idea what I'll do with mine, at least while I'm in this house!

                                        JonMarsh, you have an email good sir!
                                        - Danny

                                        Comment


                                        • JonMarsh
                                          JonMarsh commented
                                          Editing a comment
                                          Email received and initial response in preparation.
                                      • theSven
                                        Master of None
                                        • Jan 2014
                                        • 855

                                        #68
                                        Originally posted by technodanvan
                                        Nice! I might have Steve Manning make me the baffles for mine...haven't decided yet what materials I'll use though. Was kind of thinking about keeping this as low cost as possible, so MDF all around except maybe Baltic Birch baffles. Might wrap in 1/4 hardboard again though...we'll see. You must be going for the higher end version with the other tweeter. Great idea on the messages, I did not think of that! Wonder if I can go back in to complete that...

                                        Do you know where you'll use these? I don't really see them replacing your mains in your theater. I only ask because I have absolutely no idea what I'll do with mine, at least while I'm in this house!
                                        I may end up putting them in the theater. Plan B is to put them upstairs where the Calliope were migrated too. Then I would take the Calliope up to my parents house that way when I'm up there visiting I have something fantastic to listen to. My parents are still using some Kenwood loud speakers from the 1970's. Plan C would move the Ardent D's upstairs and use the SMJ-40's in the theater as I can now do 2.0 or 5.1 for movies, Calliope to my parents house. It requires manually moving the XLR from the Emotiva to the DAC, but small change to enjoy a rich 2.0 listening experience now.

                                        My reason for wanting to build the SMJ-40 was after listening to Efalegalo Isiris build and loving how they sound I want something with even more low end the Ardent D's. The low end was MOST impressive on the Isiris and if you ever get a chance to hear them you must do that. What also really blew me away was how similar the voicing is between the Isiris and Ardent D. I found that pretty impressive.

                                        Painter in training

                                        Comment

                                        • JonMarsh
                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                          • Aug 2000
                                          • 15259

                                          #69
                                          Work is progressing reasonably well, interleaved with other design tasks, landscaping work, general maintenance, communication, etc!

                                          The the basic fabrication for the 1/4" maple overlays for the MF-HF module 19" front panels have been fabricated from the narrower panels available from the usual sources... these are 24" long, before cross cutting.

                                          Click image for larger version

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                                          Supplies of Birdseye maple veneer from the original Wavecor Ardent project were brought over from CA last weekend, and now I've been flattening and drying veneer section to use for the front panel of the MF-HF module...


                                          Here is the flattening/drying stack setup:


                                          Click image for larger version

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                                          Ripped panels for the MF-HF panel are used for straightening weights.


                                          Here, just before setting up the 3rd drying pass (not using newsprint, but Scott "rag" paper towels from a box). Parchment paper is used to isolate each veneer and paper stack.


                                          Click image for larger version

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                                          the AudioWorx
                                          Natalie P
                                          M8ta
                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                          Modula MT XE
                                          Modula Xtreme
                                          Isiris
                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                          SMJ
                                          Minerva Monitor
                                          Calliope
                                          Ardent D

                                          In Development...
                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                          Obi-Wan
                                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                          Modula PWB
                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                          Comment

                                          • JonMarsh
                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 15259

                                            #70
                                            Secret glue up process.


                                            Click image for larger version  Name:	Secrit glue up process.jpg Views:	0 Size:	626.4 KB ID:	938498



                                            You probably don't want to do these things they way I am- remember, I am no woodworker. I get things done, but I don't worry about cost or effort involved.


                                            Click image for larger version  Name:	Building Skills 1st time.jpg Views:	0 Size:	48.9 KB ID:	938499

                                            the AudioWorx
                                            Natalie P
                                            M8ta
                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                            Modula MT XE
                                            Modula Xtreme
                                            Isiris
                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                            SMJ
                                            Minerva Monitor
                                            Calliope
                                            Ardent D

                                            In Development...
                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                            Obi-Wan
                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                            Modula PWB
                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                            Comment

                                            • JonMarsh
                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 15259

                                              #71
                                              The edge glued maple board front overlay panels for the woofer cabinet have been unclamped and sanded, and as ET would say, "Everything is proceeding according to plan...."


                                              Click image for larger version

Name:	LF Cabinet front overlay.jpg
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                                              the AudioWorx
                                              Natalie P
                                              M8ta
                                              Modula Neo DCC
                                              Modula MT XE
                                              Modula Xtreme
                                              Isiris
                                              Wavecor Ardent

                                              SMJ
                                              Minerva Monitor
                                              Calliope
                                              Ardent D

                                              In Development...
                                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                              Obi-Wan
                                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                              Modula PWB
                                              Calliope CC Supreme
                                              Natalie P Ultra
                                              Natalie P Supreme
                                              Janus BP1 Sub


                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                              Comment

                                              • JonMarsh
                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                • Aug 2000
                                                • 15259

                                                #72
                                                Well, the fun never ends here, and neither does the work to be done!

                                                I am making progress with my possibly questionable decision to veneer the 1/4" maple overlay panels, to get a consistent appearance and avoid cosmetic issues from some variations in these panels. Geez, the things I'll do for a good photo for the finished project!

                                                Today's morning dalliance was prepping the veneer pieces, mixing up the West System epoxy I like to use for veneering (a bad habit I picked up doing the Wavecor Ardents and haven't been able to kick since- in fact, this last trip I brought back mixing cups from the original batch I bought FOR the Wavecor Ardents!).


                                                Nothing at all complicated here, especially if you're familiar with setting up the West 105 resin and 205 hardener combo in their metal cans and supplied pump dispenser- it's easy enough for even me to use without issues!


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                                                I'm a little OCD about the veneer prep, even once it's dried- a trick that I've found works well is to use the nice easy release blue masking tape initially on the backside, to pull things together. with your fingers and apply the masking tape BEFORE using the veneer tape on the front side.

                                                Looks sorta like this:


                                                Click image for larger version

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                                                Flip it over...


                                                Click image for larger version

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                                                Then you're ready to apply the veneer tape- when the cross pieces dry, they shrink, and that also helps pull things together at the seam.


                                                Click image for larger version

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                                                Now, this is the point where having multiple irons in the fire can help- the underside support piece (bamboo here) is one of the cut sides for the Natalie P Ultra. Just the right size for supporting the work piece.

                                                For assembly, I put down a piece of parchment paper, then the piece being veneered, and apply the epoxy to that with a flat spreader. A little goes a long way- about one squirt on the dispenser pumps for the 105 resin and 205 hardener.

                                                Then, AFTER removing the masking tape from the back side of the veneer "assembly", position the veneer, then another piece of parchment paper, then another 1" bamboo side as the primary clamping plate.


                                                Then additional cut pieces of the 1-1/4" maple ply for this project for the upper modules are stacked up to get clamping weight...


                                                Click image for larger version

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                                                Both front panel overlay pieces are now veneered and clamped.
                                                ​​​​​​​​

                                                Of course, I'm using my favorite SawStop job site saw as the work table. Nice and flat.


                                                Is that cheating?

                                                I have an old saying to cover these situations, one that a Danish guy at work and I used a lot...

                                                "If you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough!"



                                                🤣






                                                the AudioWorx
                                                Natalie P
                                                M8ta
                                                Modula Neo DCC
                                                Modula MT XE
                                                Modula Xtreme
                                                Isiris
                                                Wavecor Ardent

                                                SMJ
                                                Minerva Monitor
                                                Calliope
                                                Ardent D

                                                In Development...
                                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                Obi-Wan
                                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                Modula PWB
                                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                                Natalie P Ultra
                                                Natalie P Supreme
                                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                Comment

                                                • theSven
                                                  Master of None
                                                  • Jan 2014
                                                  • 855

                                                  #73
                                                  Once the veneer is completed, I may take all these posts and create an article on htguide for this. Great knowledge to share on this!
                                                  Painter in training

                                                  Comment

                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                    • 15259

                                                    #74
                                                    Continuing part prep for the MF-HF "module"


                                                    More watching the sausage get ground...

                                                    BTW, reminder, regarding these front panel "overlay" panels, and the purpose:
                                                    • They serve two main purposes- taking care of the rebate cut out for the TPL075 tweeter
                                                    • Providing the additional front panel depth needed based on the updated crossover design and change in optimum Z-Axis offset of midrange to tweeter
                                                    • These are raw panels ~24" long, whereas the finished length of the MF-HF front panels is 19". There are reasons for this, including managing when and how the panels are trimmed to final length and at what stage of assembly. (AudioWorx manufacturing secretes, not to be confused with SMJ Audio manufacturing secrets, which are based on very different technology! No CNC at AudioWorx or DFAL!
                                                    • Initial stages of work and dimensions are dictated by the raw material dimensions to a degree- such as the 5" panel width of the maple boards, or the 5.5-6" width of solid veneer patterns.

                                                    Here are the two overlay panels after unclamping from veneering:

                                                    Click image for larger version  Name:	1_24%22 Panel before side trim.jpg Views:	0 Size:	2.99 MB ID:	938911



                                                    The veneer overlaps the edges, and has to be trimmed- on thin stock like this, I find the most straight forward way is a cutting knife with a fresh blade, and using the main stock as the edge guide:


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                                                    Here you can see the first panel trimmed, looking at it flipped back over from the veneer side. I used a piece of masonite packed with some of my veneer stock as a protection element for the base of the cutting stack.


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                                                    The next step is the basic/rough sanding of the veneer to remove the veneer tape and any leaked glue, if present. For this occasion, it seemed worthwhile to breakout the Festool orbital sander that I bought years ago at a special introductory discount and haven't yet used, saving it for a special project.

                                                    If this isn't special, I don't know what is...


                                                    Click image for larger version

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                                                    Once both panels are sanded, the next step will be routing the TPL075 rebate using a template and template follower in my Bosch plunge router (nope, no CNC here!)




                                                    Click image for larger version

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                                                    the AudioWorx
                                                    Natalie P
                                                    M8ta
                                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                                    Modula MT XE
                                                    Modula Xtreme
                                                    Isiris
                                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                                    SMJ
                                                    Minerva Monitor
                                                    Calliope
                                                    Ardent D

                                                    In Development...
                                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                    Obi-Wan
                                                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                    Modula PWB
                                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                    Comment

                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                      • 15259

                                                      #75
                                                      I'm in a very "experimental" stage of fabrication effort, and whether it will work or not in an open question. So I'm probably going to go dark on this for a while until I see if I come out the end of it with something that worked, or if I have to hit the reset button and try again. So far, the plan is working...

                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_7885 SS.jpg
Views:	518
Size:	895.5 KB
ID:	939679

                                                      the AudioWorx
                                                      Natalie P
                                                      M8ta
                                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                                      Modula MT XE
                                                      Modula Xtreme
                                                      Isiris
                                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                                      SMJ
                                                      Minerva Monitor
                                                      Calliope
                                                      Ardent D

                                                      In Development...
                                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                      Obi-Wan
                                                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                      Modula PWB
                                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                      Comment

                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                        • 15259

                                                        #76
                                                        Now, this next picture is just a "proof of ongoing work", AKA, WIP. No details, no comments, just showing that stuff is actually happening...

                                                        Click image for larger version

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                                                        Of course, slow work takes time.


                                                        Click image for larger version

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ID:	939788




                                                        the AudioWorx
                                                        Natalie P
                                                        M8ta
                                                        Modula Neo DCC
                                                        Modula MT XE
                                                        Modula Xtreme
                                                        Isiris
                                                        Wavecor Ardent

                                                        SMJ
                                                        Minerva Monitor
                                                        Calliope
                                                        Ardent D

                                                        In Development...
                                                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                        Obi-Wan
                                                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                        Modula PWB
                                                        Calliope CC Supreme
                                                        Natalie P Ultra
                                                        Natalie P Supreme
                                                        Janus BP1 Sub


                                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                        Comment

                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                          • 15259

                                                          #77
                                                          and it continues....

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                                                          the AudioWorx
                                                          Natalie P
                                                          M8ta
                                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                                          Modula MT XE
                                                          Modula Xtreme
                                                          Isiris
                                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                                          SMJ
                                                          Minerva Monitor
                                                          Calliope
                                                          Ardent D

                                                          In Development...
                                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                          Obi-Wan
                                                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                          Modula PWB
                                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                          Comment

                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 15259

                                                            #78
                                                            Step by step... inch by inch... slowly I build...


                                                            Click image for larger version

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                                                            Some days the closest I can come to innovation is using some of the cut cabinet parts as tooling for assembling other parts...






                                                            the AudioWorx
                                                            Natalie P
                                                            M8ta
                                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                                            Modula MT XE
                                                            Modula Xtreme
                                                            Isiris
                                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                                            SMJ
                                                            Minerva Monitor
                                                            Calliope
                                                            Ardent D

                                                            In Development...
                                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                            Obi-Wan
                                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                            Modula PWB
                                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                            Comment

                                                            • JonMarsh
                                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                              • 15259

                                                              #79
                                                              And the LF module 2nd outer front was laminated up this morning.

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                                                              Lately (the last 2-3 years) it seems like I've been migrating to more and more Bosch tools- in this project, I'm using two Bosch routers with the plunge base, (you can buy them with both fixed and plunge, or just one of the two - I converted my fixed base Bosch to dual mode recently), and they work quite well for this project for a couple of reasons.


                                                              One, Bosch offers an adapter that allows fitting template followers, and offers a selection of those in a kit, plus some individually, at different popular cutting diameter sizes.


                                                              Here, I have one router setup with the template adapter for doing 1/2" up cut work with a solid carbide router with a 1-1/2" cutting length. Here it is retracted...

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                                                              And here extended.


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                                                              I use these with my homemade templates constructed from phenolic tooling sheet.


                                                              The main task I worked on today besides shopping and lawn care was starting the cuts for the through holes on the inner front panels...


                                                              Here, a key useful feature of the Bosch router is the stepped plunge height fixture, with small steps between adjacent settings. This is key for working with a hardwood like the maple ply these panels are being fabricated from, as it's necessary to take small depth of cut on multiple passes.


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                                                              Frankly, routing through materials like this maple ply probably takes at least 4x longer than common construction materials like cabinet grade MDF.


                                                              Here, I've got the starting point for two holes finished...

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                                                              And one more...


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                                                              Slow work takes time...



                                                              the AudioWorx
                                                              Natalie P
                                                              M8ta
                                                              Modula Neo DCC
                                                              Modula MT XE
                                                              Modula Xtreme
                                                              Isiris
                                                              Wavecor Ardent

                                                              SMJ
                                                              Minerva Monitor
                                                              Calliope
                                                              Ardent D

                                                              In Development...
                                                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                              Obi-Wan
                                                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                              Modula PWB
                                                              Calliope CC Supreme
                                                              Natalie P Ultra
                                                              Natalie P Supreme
                                                              Janus BP1 Sub


                                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                              Comment

                                                              • technodanvan
                                                                Senior Member
                                                                • Nov 2009
                                                                • 998

                                                                #80
                                                                Why use a 1/2" bit Jon? Are these cuts just for the countersink?
                                                                - Danny

                                                                Comment

                                                                • JonMarsh
                                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                                  • 15259

                                                                  #81
                                                                  The 1/2" solid carbide bits are for template cutting, cutting out the pattern for the front panel of the midrange-treble pattern, using a 3/8" thick phenolic template which I made (actually, there are two, one for the TPL075 cut out on the 1/4" panel before it's bonded to the main front panel, and then one for the primary rear cutouts for the tweeter and midrange section. These need to be deep, and will be followed up with a long 1/2" follower bit with the template on the other side of the panel, to get to the final dimension.
                                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                                  Natalie P
                                                                  M8ta
                                                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                                                  Modula MT XE
                                                                  Modula Xtreme
                                                                  Isiris
                                                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                                                  SMJ
                                                                  Minerva Monitor
                                                                  Calliope
                                                                  Ardent D

                                                                  In Development...
                                                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                  Obi-Wan
                                                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                  Modula PWB
                                                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                                    • 15259

                                                                    #82
                                                                    Slow work takes time, but get's done carefully- after two hours of cutting I can still touch the 3/4" router bit used for these initial slots- it's pretty warm, but nothing close to it's temperature limits. And every step on the router depth guide was used. Working with maple is quite different from Baltic Ply or cabinet grade MDF.

                                                                    These are the inner front panels...

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ID:	940269

                                                                    Next will be through cuts and clean up with a flush trim bit, then the backside bevels.


                                                                    Slow work takes time...


                                                                    the AudioWorx
                                                                    Natalie P
                                                                    M8ta
                                                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                                                    Modula MT XE
                                                                    Modula Xtreme
                                                                    Isiris
                                                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                                                    SMJ
                                                                    Minerva Monitor
                                                                    Calliope
                                                                    Ardent D

                                                                    In Development...
                                                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                    Obi-Wan
                                                                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                    Modula PWB
                                                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                                      • 15259

                                                                      #83
                                                                      Some detail development on bracing and internal design construction.


                                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Brace Detail 6-21.png
Views:	388
Size:	1.43 MB
ID:	941198



                                                                      the AudioWorx
                                                                      Natalie P
                                                                      M8ta
                                                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                                                      Modula MT XE
                                                                      Modula Xtreme
                                                                      Isiris
                                                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                                                      SMJ
                                                                      Minerva Monitor
                                                                      Calliope
                                                                      Ardent D

                                                                      In Development...
                                                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                      Obi-Wan
                                                                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                      Modula PWB
                                                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • technodanvan
                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                        • Nov 2009
                                                                        • 998

                                                                        #84
                                                                        Question: I believe in the past you have expressed concern about cabinet resonances. Since this is a fairly tall bass cabinet (40 inches, was it? I don't recall if that figure was internal or external) that would be somewhere around 330-340Hz. I see you have one brace extending the full depth of the cabinet, but with holes in it. Is this superior to using a solid brace instead, effectively creating two smaller cabinets with a resonance closer to the 700Hz range? Or is 300+Hz far enough above the working frequency of the bass cabinets it's not a concern?

                                                                        Just trying to plan for my own project, which would be notably taller than this with a resonance of around 200Hz if I don't split the cabinet into sub compartments.
                                                                        - Danny

                                                                        Comment


                                                                        • theSven
                                                                          theSven commented
                                                                          Editing a comment
                                                                          A most interesting question indeed!
                                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                                        • 15259

                                                                        #85
                                                                        I've been debating that issue with myself- I literally plan to clamp it up as you see above, except the right side panel not glued, nor the center baffle, with drivers loaded and check the impedance curve.

                                                                        The other thing is that I can put an aperiodic damping baffle across the top of the center brace (good ole Denim insulation) and this would likely kill any vertical column resonance, being in what would be a high velocity low pressure area. The entire LF module will be lined in that material anyway.

                                                                        I don't really expect it to occur in this design, though- the aspect ratio of width to height would encourage it, but the front to back aspect ratio is much more "normal", being about 2:1.

                                                                        The diagnostic aid is that the RSS210HF's have such a clean impedance curve, anything unusual that shows up is due to effects like standing wave resonance.

                                                                        Note- the FR30's are open top to bottom in a large area.
                                                                        the AudioWorx
                                                                        Natalie P
                                                                        M8ta
                                                                        Modula Neo DCC
                                                                        Modula MT XE
                                                                        Modula Xtreme
                                                                        Isiris
                                                                        Wavecor Ardent

                                                                        SMJ
                                                                        Minerva Monitor
                                                                        Calliope
                                                                        Ardent D

                                                                        In Development...
                                                                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                        Obi-Wan
                                                                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                        Modula PWB
                                                                        Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                        Natalie P Ultra
                                                                        Natalie P Supreme
                                                                        Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                                          • 15259

                                                                          #86
                                                                          As is the ongoing case, slow work takes time. Just ask Steve!



                                                                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Inner LF Front Panel.jpg
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Size:	724.2 KB
ID:	941203
                                                                          the AudioWorx
                                                                          Natalie P
                                                                          M8ta
                                                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                                                          Modula MT XE
                                                                          Modula Xtreme
                                                                          Isiris
                                                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                                                          SMJ
                                                                          Minerva Monitor
                                                                          Calliope
                                                                          Ardent D

                                                                          In Development...
                                                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                          Obi-Wan
                                                                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                          Modula PWB
                                                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                                            • 15259

                                                                            #87
                                                                            Work has started on the outer front panels for the LF modules...


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                                                                            Slow work takes time...

                                                                            BTW, the Bosch RA1617EVS has sort of become the "official" project router, as there are now three on hand setup individually for specific kinds of tasks...
                                                                            the AudioWorx
                                                                            Natalie P
                                                                            M8ta
                                                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                                                            Modula MT XE
                                                                            Modula Xtreme
                                                                            Isiris
                                                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                                                            SMJ
                                                                            Minerva Monitor
                                                                            Calliope
                                                                            Ardent D

                                                                            In Development...
                                                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                            Obi-Wan
                                                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                            Modula PWB
                                                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • technodanvan
                                                                              Senior Member
                                                                              • Nov 2009
                                                                              • 998

                                                                              #88
                                                                              You know, I keep thinking that I should purchase additional plunge bases for some of my routers. That way I can leave the various Jasper jigs on them and not need to worry about re-centering them every time.
                                                                              - Danny

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • JonMarsh
                                                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                                • 15259

                                                                                #89
                                                                                You might find that strategy very helpful.

                                                                                In my own case, for my three Bosch RA1617EVS routers, I got two with plunge bases and one with fixed base (less expensive).
                                                                                • Plunge base # 1 used with Bosch template accessory, mainly for 1/4" and 1/2" solid carbide bits, used with jigs for MF-HF module front panel work, rear connector work and rear tweeter panel cutout, and inner brace work
                                                                                • Plunge base # 2 used with Jasper Jig for circle cuts for through holes and rebates
                                                                                • Fixed base used with either solid carbide flush trim bits, or with mortising bits for rebate for rear connector panels.
                                                                                I have an old Ryobi router which is setup to handle the monster deep cut 45 degree bevel bits, and a I have a few Bosch Colt and one DeWalt 1/4" shank routers for other detail work, such as small round overs.

                                                                                My favorite DeWalt DW614 router for Jasper jig doesn't cut it on this project due to the depth of holes required, and the very nice dust collector gets in the way of vertical bit travel. It's fine for driver rebates, though.

                                                                                And while on the subject of routers and dust collection, I should mention the DeWalt DXV10S that I use, purchased from Costco years ago... the standard hose connector fits perfectly to the exhaust port on my SawStop saw and my Bosch GCM12SD 12" sliding miter saw. And the hose is long and flexible and easy to use in hand held mode with routers or plugged in with an adapter.

                                                                                Click image for larger version

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                                                                                the AudioWorx
                                                                                Natalie P
                                                                                M8ta
                                                                                Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                Modula MT XE
                                                                                Modula Xtreme
                                                                                Isiris
                                                                                Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                SMJ
                                                                                Minerva Monitor
                                                                                Calliope
                                                                                Ardent D

                                                                                In Development...
                                                                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                Obi-Wan
                                                                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                Modula PWB
                                                                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • JonMarsh
                                                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                                                  • 15259

                                                                                  #90
                                                                                  Step by step, inch by inch, slowly I route....

                                                                                  Through cuts prepared, now the rebates for woofer mounting are "in progress"- adjustments planned.



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                                                                                  WIP.


                                                                                  I don't think I can emphasize enough how much the Bosch plunge router makes this easier to do with precision, as it's straight forward to setup the height "calibration" and take out precise steps of depth.

                                                                                  ​​​​​​​There will probably be a slight adjustment still to the rebate depth.

                                                                                  Two thumbs up to Bosch. So far on this project, I'm using half inch and quarter inch shank routers, the Bosch sliding dual bevel miter saw, and a Bosch saber saw... I swear it's not because I worked for a German company for 35 years, but maybe some of the habits and preferences rubbed off. I do not represent myself as a skilled wood worker, I just make up stuff as I go. But this gear makes it easier to do.

                                                                                  And yes, the rebate centers won't be cut out until the round overs and other details are finalized- makes for a more stable working situation.


                                                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                                                  Natalie P
                                                                                  M8ta
                                                                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                  Modula MT XE
                                                                                  Modula Xtreme
                                                                                  Isiris
                                                                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                  SMJ
                                                                                  Minerva Monitor
                                                                                  Calliope
                                                                                  Ardent D

                                                                                  In Development...
                                                                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                  Obi-Wan
                                                                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                  Modula PWB
                                                                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                  Comment

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