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  • Eight inch woofer testing, report

    Hello Everyone,

    I am looking to build a speaker with an 8" woofer and a 4" tweeter in 1.5 cubic feet or less. These are the constraints, please don't make suggestions on what to try outside these guidelines.

    Because I do not know which are the best drivers to choose, I am going test the following,

    Woofers,

    - SB Acoustics SB23NRXS45-8
    - Human Speakers PRO 005
    - Ciare HWB200
    - Dayton Audio RS255-8
    - HiVi LK8A
    - Seas U22REX/P-SL
    - SB Acoustics SB23NACS45-8
    - Wavecor SW223BD02
    - Dayton Audio RSS210HF-4

    Passive radiators,

    - Scan Speak 26W/0-00-00
    - Dayton Audio DSA270-PR
    - Dayton Audio RSS265-PR

    Tweeters,

    - SB Acoustics SB26STWGC-4
    - Seas 27TBCD/GBDXT
    - Human Speakers PRO 002 M2
    - SB Acoustics SB29RDAC-C000-4
    - BoZhen CQ66

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    Tests will be carried out on a 1.5 cubic foot poorly braced test box 20"x13.5"x15". The test box has replaceable 10"x10" panels so woofer of different sizes can be swapped in and out, same with 6"x10" panels for tweeters and side panels for passive radiators.

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    Testing equipment will be an Earthworks M23 XLR microphone on a home made height adjustable stand for far field and a Umik-2 for near field. Amplifier is a Neurochrome LM3886 DONE RIGHT built by me, along with a Motu M4 audio interface. Arta will be used for dual channel farfield measurements with loopback. Automated turntable is home made under control of Arta.

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    I strive for as accurate as measurements as possible as well as repeatability. Microphone distance from baffle will be 1m, stand is fixed to turntable with a backstop so test box can be returned to the same position again and again. Baffle has been aligned to center of turntable rotation and mic centred vertically and horizontally. Mic stand allows for one axis of movement, up and down only.

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    First up will be the 8" woofers.

    Thanks for watching.

    David.

  • #2
    I'm sure a lot of folks will be interested to see how this works out and how the parts look- obviously, besides SPL measurements, HD2 and HD3 would be of interest, along with impedance tests free air and in your test enclosure.

    How big is your test room? I would give consideration to pulling the whole setup out from the corner by a couple of meters/and or setting up some acoustic batting to dampen the rear wall reflections somewhat. And heavy batting or even just thick moving blankets folded up on the floor in front of the DUT cabinet at the obvious "reflection point" between the cabinet and microphone could be helpful. But don't let me be a "damper" on your efforts!

    🀣


    As a check on your "in room results", consider some quasi-nearfield checks at say, 1/2 meter, as they will show much less influence from room reflections, and as narrow as your test enclosure is, should still be fairly useful.

    BTW, what is your proposed methodology for testing the PRs?


    ​​​​​​​I think you're going to have fun doing this, (I hope!) and we'll certainly enjoy seeing your results.

    DFAL
    Dark Force Acoustic Labs

    A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

    Comment


    • #3
      I have to admire the laser level! That was a nice touch! Looking forward to see how your measurements come out!
      Painter in training

      Comment


      • #4
        Beautiful turntable! Do you have a build thread for that somewhere?
        - Danny

        Comment


        • #5
          I've seen Dave's post on other websites. I commend him on willingness to perform such time-consuming tests, and then further share results with the DIY community.

          A very big Thanks You, Dave.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Evil Twin View Post
            I'm sure a lot of folks will be interested to see how this works out and how the parts look- obviously, besides SPL measurements, HD2 and HD3 would be of interest, along with impedance tests free air and in your test enclosure.

            How big is your test room? I would give consideration to pulling the whole setup out from the corner by a couple of meters/and or setting up some acoustic batting to dampen the rear wall reflections somewhat. And heavy batting or even just thick moving blankets folded up on the floor in front of the DUT cabinet at the obvious "reflection point" between the cabinet and microphone could be helpful. But don't let me be a "damper" on your efforts!

            🀣


            As a check on your "in room results", consider some quasi-nearfield checks at say, 1/2 meter, as they will show much less influence from room reflections, and as narrow as your test enclosure is, should still be fairly useful.

            BTW, what is your proposed methodology for testing the PRs?


            I think you're going to have fun doing this, (I hope!) and we'll certainly enjoy seeing your results.
            My limiting factor is ceiling height, which is only 2 meters,

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            Which means my gate for windowed measurements will only be ~3.5ms

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            Does this not remove the floor/ceiling/backwall reflections? The floor is the closest thing to the mic/speaker, everything else is >1m away.

            I will be doing distortion tests, free air and in box impedance and others. I will try to make one post about each driver with all the points.

            Not every driver will be tested with a PR, just the ones that look promising. I have had success in merging nearfield PR and nearfield woofer response in REW. Generally the sims show the roll off tails crossing at 20Hz, so that is what I lined up when combining the responses.

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            I have lots to learn, so suggestions and corrections welcome, just be nice when I am wrong please .

            Thank you, David.​​​​

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by technodanvan View Post
              Beautiful turntable! Do you have a build thread for that somewhere?
              I don't know if this link will work for you, but give it a try,



              Thank you, David.

              Comment


              • #8
                Really cool stuff, thanks for the link!
                - Danny

                Comment


                • #9
                  You're really geared up nicely, and it looks like you're already getting some good experience with the tools. Not knowing anything about your acoustics or engineering background, I'm going to give a few hints that may help you out in your situation, and if I'm covering stuff you've already thought about and have plans for, then please accept my apologies. Some of this is going to be a bit of philosophy about purpose behind measurements, and some will be hints and ideas for coping with your circumstances (2 meter ceiling!!) and how to get the most useful driver information under those conditions...


                  πŸ”Š Speaker Measurement "Philosophy"

                  I look at speaker measurement as two similar and related tasks, but different techniques to produce optimized results for the needs at hand...
                  • Driver characterization, to understand its performance capabilities and quirks in a setting similar to what is used for loudspeaker data sheets. This includes collecting...
                    • ​​​​​​​​​​​​​​SPL amplitude response with little or no impact from baffle step, and managing measurement technique and windowing technique to get the data needed with minimal impact from the measurement environment. A flat near IB is preferred to eliminate diffraction issues in SPL response.
                    • ​​​​​​​Driver impedance, which gives hints for issues with driver performance (including resonances) and crossover challenges
                    • Polar behavior, to estimate or calculate a specific forward power response for a specific angle or for total output power response
                    • ​​​​​​​Distortion- which adds an extra degree of difficulty, because if you want to measure HD3, you need to have a system that is good to go for 3x the highest frequency of serious interest. That means targeting high sample rates and using wide band measuring devices.
                  • Application measurement- for a specific design concept in a specific cabinet with specific radiation goals.
                    • ​​​​​​​Using a cabinet or test baffle that matches the application requirement or initial plan for physical construction
                    • ​​​​​​​Measurements may be focused more on the SPL characteristics for the intended frequency range- but polar characterization is needed, if only to verify that some range (like up to 45 degrees off axis) is consistent and can be assumed equivalent to a specific axis angle measurement
                    • It may be desired that the measurement environment is adjusted to replicate the anticipated playback environment, as regards boundaries and locations, and their impact on both LF behavior and overall behavior, as well as cabinet diffraction behavior at different angles.



                  β€‹β€‹β€‹β€‹β€‹β€‹β€‹βœ… Hints for extracting useful measurements


                  Optimizing the measurement bandwidth and effective "signal to noise" ratio are key goals often at odds with each other.

                  You mention using a gating window of 3.5msec due to first order boundary reflections, but that window duration for getting a correlated impulse response from a sine chirp will have very limited low frequency data, and it really only suitable for tweeter evaluations, and even then, lacking LF data for full characterization tweeters I often use.

                  The necessary goal for in room measurements is literally to optimized the "signal to noise" ratio of the impulse response data. That means, quite basically, reducing the level of reflected wavefronts versus primary measurement wavefronts. This can be done both by physical means and by choice of measurement windows for the correlated impulse response.

                  I'm going to talk about measurement windowing first, as I use it in one of my two main tools, Fuzzmeausre. The other measurement tool I use is Pocket CLIO- it is very useful in some regards, but also has significant limitations. Fuzzmeasure does many kinds of acoustical measurements, one happening to be a mode suitable for loudspeaker characterization.

                  Note, these hints and methods are what I'd call my GTD techniques- "Getting Things Done"- you may like or reject any as you're so inclined, but they work for me within the context of my overall design conceptual process. I'm going to use a single tweeter measurement as an example, taken from the Isiris update project, all the following screens are just one measurement capture, but showing how differently things work out and look for creating a measurement that I'll export FRD files from, and further process in VituixCAD (scaling and minimum phase conversion, sometimes additional smoothing). This is mounted on the cabinet tested in my living room. Ceiling is around 12 ft. Cabinet is moved out further into the room for tests.

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                  Note: because any single measurement in Fuzzmeasure can be used for a variety of analysis types, including distortion, the way I setup things is to optimize the dynamic range and signal to noise ratio for the DAC processor in the Motu or whatever outboard processor I use (used to be TC Konnekt). So, I don't worry about displaying in a calibrated level, because that is easy to check once to validate factory specs, and then to scale to for FRD files used for crossover design. Instead, I'm working with a dB scale referred to 0dBFS and below, and normally setup for the max signal level to be around -10dBFS in order to optimize both distortion and dynamic range. Note, I also use a digital storage scope to monitor actually speaker driver levels at all time, using a sweep speed that allows me to capture the whole sweep; I have a small Teledyne scope on my Pocket CLIO cart, and a Siglent scope on the Fuzzmeaure cart. On the Fuzzmeaure cart, a Schitt Freya+ is used as the preamp (in SS gain mode, not passive) and a Behringer A500 power amp, chosen for it's low noise and low distortion at low to moderate power levels.


                  In keeping with TLR, I'm showing first the measurement processing result used to create FRD export, which includes SPL and the windowed impulse response, and also the distortion plots for HD2 and HD3 for that measurement exported to a separate graphic file. I prefer distortion plotted in dB, as percentage, like Accuton uses, compresses and obscures information in the bottom end of the scale.



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                  Sampling rate is 88.2 kH, bit depth is 24bits, and the measurement mic for the Fuzzmeasure cart is currently an Earthworks M30; I have two ACCO Pacific microphones misplaced somewhere in one of my two local storage units; haven't had time to ransack them. Would have bought another one, but they seem to be out of business. They have an online quote form which they did not respond to, and the online ordering which used to be there is no longer on the site. Emails were not responded to.

                  ​​​​​​​Note, the default impulse correlation length is 200msec, which can be then edited with window modifications.


                  Fuzzmeasure is more flexible than CLIO as regards windowing configuration, having rectangular, Hanning, Half Hanning, Hamming, Half Hamming, Bingham, and Half Bingham, and the ability to graphically edit the window and see the results with a pop up window.


                  Here's what you'd be looking at with default settings (rectangular windowing) and a nice big room with few early reflections:



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                  Something to note here, as a hint- looking at the impulse response, you can see that the early ones are at a much higher level than what comes later. This is just partly due to the square law effect, where if you double the distance to a source, the intensity drops by 6dB. This can be used to advantage to work against early reflections at times, by reducing the primary distance to the DUT. So, for example, if you move the microphone to 1/2 meter, the direct sound goes up by 6 dB, but the reflections remain pretty constant. My own rule of thumb for quasi near field measurements varies depending on what you want to know- if you need to keep baffle step in mind, I suggest not going close than 2X the baffle width. If you're just interested more in characterizing the driver, then you might choose to measure at a distance equivalent to 2x the radiating width of the driver- for an 8" woofer, that is about 6", so you could approach 12" and have fairly representative data, with a better ratio of direct to reflected sound data.


                  OK, this is just a tweeter we're measuring here, so I think I'd be comfortable looking more at a 6ms window gate duration.


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                  Well, that looks better, but it still doesn't exactly ring my chimes, to use a music metaphor...

                  Why are all those other window functions in this tool? Some can be pretty helpful, depending on the the type of acoustic measurements you're doing. I prefer the Half Hamming window, with the origin set just before the start of the impulse response...



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                  This provides a shaped gain function relative to time, literally a Half Hamming window, and the components later in time are reduced in level but not eliminated.


                  ​​​​​​​What happens if we take the window duration down to 3msec? This can be useful to do as a sanity check, sometimes even with a Bingham or Rectangular function. Then you know you're just getting the direct sound.


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                  But we can readily see that we're losing so much lower frequency data that I don't really have much confidence below 2kHz. And that won't do for developing a good data plot for crossover phase below the nominal crossover point.

                  ​​​​​​​These measurements were done at 1 meter, on axis, and if I thought my data from the 6msec window with Half-Hamming gate wasn't clean enough, then I'd go back and move to a 1/2 meter DUT to mic distance and try again. Remember, the data above the baffle step point can be used for level calibration in post processing.


                  Last point, in tight quarters with a low ceiling, do everything you can to keep things clean acoustically. I mentioned moving blankets on the floor previously because I've got so many of them, having had to move once a year since 2020. A more permanent solution I could recommend would be using ATS Denim insulation sheets to make some basic acoustic baffles, one for the floor in front of your DUT, and one for the ceiling. The Denim material works quite well, even for lining the interior of speaker cabinets, and it's probably a lot less problematic from an air borne contamination view point than the more common acoustic insulation materials like fiberglass and rock wool.

                  Hope these hints help, of course, others should chime in with their experiences and tips.

                  the AudioWorx
                  Natalie P
                  M8ta
                  Modula Neo DCC
                  Modula MT XE
                  Modula Xtreme
                  Isiris
                  Wavecor Ardent

                  SMJ
                  Minerva Monitor
                  Calliope
                  Ardent D

                  In Development...
                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                  Obi-Wan
                  Saint-SaΓ«ns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                  Modula PWB
                  Calliope CC Supreme
                  Natalie P Ultra
                  Natalie P Supreme
                  Janus BP1 Sub


                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Rectangular windows, data no good below 2kHz, what is going on here?

                    Originally posted by JonMarsh View Post
                    But we can readily see that we're losing so much lower frequency data that I don't really have much confidence below 2kHz. And that won't do for developing a good data plot for crossover phase below the nominal crossover point.
                    I mean no disrespect but I strongly disagree with this statement. Window length determines the frequency resolution of the measurement, window type affects how the dots are connected between each measurement sample. kimmosto has shown that for minimal overshoot/undershoot of low resolution data, the best options are either Cosine window or Tukey 0.75. I'm not sure why anyone would purposefully use a rectangular window for a speaker measurement, as it provides maximum error in the low resolution portion of the data, but I'm sure there's a use case for it somewhere, IMO this isn't it.

                    For comparison, I traced your measurement data above and overlaid it in everyone's favourite software. Here you can see very good agreement in your own measurements down to 250Hz, only difference is that one includes a bunch of room interaction from the long windowing.

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                    ​​​​​​​If you really wanted to make an argument on phase data for crossover development, you should have shown the measured phase for comparison. Of course, it's easily done with our own measured data. Simply load into VituixCAD IR tool and compare with reflection free window, vs long window that includes the room. Below the Green lines show correct windowing at 4.2ms length, and default setting of Tukey 0.5. You can see very good agreement of measured phase down to 200Hz, apart from all the junk added by the room reflections.
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                    Going the other direction, decreasing the window down to 3ms, phase is still exactly the same as what we get at 4.2ms window, and I would say not much data is lost for evaluation of this tweeter. Problems only start to rear their heads at 2.5ms where the low resolution start to affect the response slope in the 500Hz range. With tweeters in mind, if 3ms is all you can muster, you can get by just fine for crossover development with that measurement data.
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                    As far as using damping material to increase effective window length, I think this may be a problematic solution. Considering the goal in Dave's case would be to extend the low end frequency resolution for better merging of nearfield and far field measurements, the main problem with damping material is that it's effectiveness is frequency dependent. It will damp high frequency energy well, but not so much the low frequency energy that we're most interested in. It effectively puts a low pass filter on the reflection, making it harder to discern visually on the impulse response, however the extended window may still be contaminated at low frequencies.

                    For evaluation of this, I would recommend first to gather a good reflection free measurement of the speaker in a large open space, use a friends house with a bigger space or go out in the driveway and annoy the neighbors for a few minutes, but you need a baseline of the good expected response to evaluate the effectiveness of the damping material to absorb reflections in the frequency range you're interested in. high absorption in 200-300Hz range could be a challenge though, even anechoec chambers have low frequency limitations.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Tukey 0.50 is still initial window function in Convert IR to FR. It is a bit more accurate at high mid...low treble than Tukey 0.75, and it's available in other FFT tools such as ARTA and REW. Steeper windows are okay for tweeters which do not produce LF content -> significant IR data ends before window function ends. In addition, applicable range of the driver is above possible errors due to steep-ending window functions. This story changes with LF radiators producing LF data and wish/requirement to reach as low frequency as possible with as short window as possible and as accurate as possible. Window functions landing smoothly to zero seem to be better options. Overall response is more accurate because window function does not generate extra content to FRD by ending rapidly where IR level can be still far from zero. Narrow band deviations are clearly smoothed, but that is not so bad as wrong overall level which can lead to incorrect balance when merging NF to FF. Unfortunately this equation has quite many variables in a small measurement space, and with different radiator types so result is case dependent. "Best for everything" does not exists.

                      One of my test materials was not minimum phase. Some IR content was too early giving a bit optimistic results with shallow functions such as Hanning and Tukey 0.75. Measuring complete speaker with steep IIR XO having some excess group delay has same kind of consequences​. Some LF data could drop out of time window. For example "bad old" Genelec 8260 having massive excess GD at LF due to steep IIR XO, time window of 10 ms is barely adequate for capturing frequency response right below lower XO frequency. Steeper windows may look tempting, but the result is probably still wrong because window ends sharply in the middle of woofer's effective data.
                      VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Let’s not let perfection be the enemy of good.

                        Look forward to your results.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Results of window function test with minimum phase IR
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                          Last edited by kimmosto; 15 January 2023, 05:51 Sunday.
                          VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            If that is your intended baffle shape, I would recommend a tweeter that can cross very low (1k), but still have good dispersion >10k. The SB Acoustics SB26ADC-C000-4 comes to mind. Directivity matching a 8>1 on a flat baffle like that will be difficult, if that is a criteria for you.
                            cheers,

                            AJ
                            Manufacturer

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              First Driver Report, SB Acoustics SB20PFCR30-8, approximately $54.00 USD each,

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                              ​
                              Last edited by DaveFred; 28 January 2023, 17:46 Saturday.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                First Driver Report, SB Acoustics SB20PFCR30-8,


                                Free Air impedance,

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                                In Box inpedance,

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                                Distortion 2.83 volts, 315mm,

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                                Raw response 2.83v, 1m,


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                                Normalized,

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                                Quick and dirty 1800 Hz LR4 on the woofer, something realistic to go with my tweeter requirement.

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                                This is obviously the first one of these I have posted, how does the presented data look (not the driver, the usefulness of the data)?

                                I have data for a number of drivers, just want to get opinions on how this first one is posted before I go on with the rest.

                                Thank you,

                                David.

                                Please note, I know this data is all specific to my 1.5 cubit foot sealed box that is 20" high x 13.5" wide and has 1.5" radius side edges.
                                Last edited by DaveFred; 28 January 2023, 15:00 Saturday.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Superb work, Dave! Any chance "Normalized" polars can be included?

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Efalegalo View Post
                                    Superb work, Dave! Any chance "Normalized" polars can be included?
                                    Take a look again at the "raw response", I have added a normalized version right after. Is that what you were suggesting?

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by DaveFred View Post

                                      Take a look again at the "raw response", I have added a normalized version right after. Is that what you were suggesting?
                                      Yes - weird - the image was not loading previously and so I missed it. Yes, this is exactly what I was requesting. Thank you.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Ciare HWB200-4, approximately $145.00 USD each,

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                                        • #21
                                          Free Air impedance,

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                                          In Box inpedance,

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                                          Distortion 2.83 volts, 315mm,

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                                          Raw response 2.83v, 1m,

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                                          Normalized,

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ID:	928253

                                          Quick and dirty 1800 Hz LR4 on the woofer, something realistic to go with my tweeter requirement.

                                          Click image for larger version  Name:	Ciare HWB2000-4 VituixCAD Directivity (hor) xo.png Views:	5 Size:	6.5 KB ID:	928212

                                          Click image for larger version  Name:	Ciare HWB2000-4 VituixCAD Directivity (hor) LR$ 1800hz target.png Views:	4 Size:	53.5 KB ID:	928213

                                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Ciare HWB2000-4 VituixCAD Directivity (hor) LR4 1800hz result.png
Views:	220
Size:	169.4 KB
ID:	928252
                                          Last edited by DaveFred; 29 January 2023, 17:56 Sunday.

                                          Comment


                                          • #22
                                            Dayton RS225-8, approximately $90.00 USD each,

                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	Dayton RS225-8 factory data sheet.jpg
Views:	209
Size:	381.0 KB
ID:	928224
                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	Dayton RS225-8 back.jpg
Views:	211
Size:	313.5 KB
ID:	928225

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Name:	Dayton RS225-8 side.jpg
Views:	207
Size:	145.6 KB
ID:	928222

                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	Dayton RS225-8 top.jpg
Views:	208
Size:	226.6 KB
ID:	928223

                                            Comment


                                            • #23
                                              Free Air impedance,

                                              Click image for larger version  Name:	Dayton RS225-8 imp free air.jpg Views:	0 Size:	257.5 KB ID:	928240

                                              In Box impedance,

                                              Click image for larger version  Name:	Dayton RS225-8 imp in box.jpg Views:	0 Size:	246.1 KB ID:	928241

                                              Distortion 2.83 volts, 315mm,

                                              Click image for larger version  Name:	Dayton RS225-8 dist spl.jpg Views:	0 Size:	425.3 KB ID:	928239

                                              Click image for larger version  Name:	Dayton RS225-8 dist pct.jpg Views:	0 Size:	284.3 KB ID:	928237

                                              Raw response 2.83v, 1m,

                                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Dayton RS225-8 VituixCAD Directivity (hor).png
Views:	274
Size:	231.0 KB
ID:	928257

                                              Normalized,

                                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Dayton RS225-8 VituixCAD Directivity (hor) norm.png
Views:	282
Size:	190.1 KB
ID:	928258

                                              Quick and dirty 1800 Hz LR4 on the woofer, something realistic to go with my tweeter requirement.

                                              ​
                                              Click image for larger version  Name:	Dayton RS225-8 VituixCAD Directivity (hor) xo.png Views:	0 Size:	10.0 KB ID:	928242

                                              Click image for larger version  Name:	Dayton RS225-8 VituixCAD Directivity (hor) target.png Views:	0 Size:	48.2 KB ID:	928238

                                              Click image for larger version

Name:	VituixCAD Directivity (hor) result.png
Views:	285
Size:	130.4 KB
ID:	928256

                                              Comment


                                              • #24
                                                You are making steady progress. My comment at this point is that the impedance curves of these drivers tend to be good predictors of inductivity related modulation. If HD climbs between 100Hz and 1kHz, this is a classic symptom of this issue. The new Dayton Epique E180HE-44 have the same issue.
                                                DFAL
                                                Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                Comment


                                                • #25
                                                  Dayton Audio RSS210HF-4, approximately $140.00 USD each,

                                                  Click image for larger version

Name:	Dayton RSS210HF-4 factory data sheet.jpg
Views:	214
Size:	351.8 KB
ID:	928264

                                                  Click image for larger version

Name:	Dayton RSS210HF-4 back.jpg
Views:	208
Size:	316.0 KB
ID:	928265

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Name:	Dayton RSS210HF-4 side.jpg
Views:	209
Size:	205.4 KB
ID:	928262

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Name:	Dayton RSS210HF-4 top.jpg
Views:	212
Size:	248.4 KB
ID:	928263


                                                  Comment


                                                  • #26
                                                    Free Air impedance,

                                                    Click image for larger version  Name:	Dayton RSS210HF-4 imp free air.jpg Views:	0 Size:	259.2 KB ID:	928272

                                                    In Box impedance,

                                                    Click image for larger version  Name:	Dayton RSS210HF-4 imp in box.jpg Views:	0 Size:	249.4 KB ID:	928270

                                                    Distortion 2.83 volts, 315mm,

                                                    Click image for larger version  Name:	Dayton RSS210HF-4 dist spl.jpg Views:	0 Size:	420.9 KB ID:	928271

                                                    Click image for larger version  Name:	Dayton RSS210HF-4 dist pct.jpg Views:	0 Size:	277.4 KB ID:	928267

                                                    Raw response 2.83v, 1m,

                                                    Click image for larger version  Name:	RSS210HF-4 VituixCAD Directivity (hor).png Views:	0 Size:	221.6 KB ID:	928275

                                                    Normalized,

                                                    Click image for larger version  Name:	RSS210HF-4 VituixCAD Directivity (hor) norm.png Views:	0 Size:	185.5 KB ID:	928273

                                                    Quick and dirty 1800 Hz LR4 on the woofer, something realistic to go with my tweeter requirement.


                                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	RSS210HF-4 VituixCAD Directivity (hor) xo.png
Views:	276
Size:	8.5 KB
ID:	928276

                                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	RSS210HF-4 VituixCAD Directivity (hor) curve.png
Views:	280
Size:	46.7 KB
ID:	928277

                                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	VituixCAD Directivity (hor) result.png
Views:	276
Size:	114.1 KB
ID:	928278



                                                    ​

                                                    Comment


                                                    • #27
                                                      Eton 8-412/C8/32 HEX Symphony II, approximately $200.00 USD each,

                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Eton 8-412C832HEX factory data sheet.jpg
Views:	194
Size:	324.0 KB
ID:	928282

                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Eton 8-412C832HEX back.jpg
Views:	191
Size:	262.9 KB
ID:	928281

                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Eton 8-412C832HEX side.jpg
Views:	192
Size:	185.8 KB
ID:	928280

                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Eton 8-412C832HEX top.jpg
Views:	193
Size:	377.4 KB
ID:	928283

                                                      Comment


                                                      • #28
                                                        Free Air impedance,

                                                        Click image for larger version

Name:	Eton 8-412C832HEX imp free air.jpg
Views:	235
Size:	263.2 KB
ID:	928292

                                                        In Box impedance,

                                                        Click image for larger version

Name:	Eton 8-412C832HEX imp in box.jpg
Views:	232
Size:	261.7 KB
ID:	928293

                                                        Distortion 2.83 volts, 315mm,

                                                        Click image for larger version

Name:	Eton 8-412C832HEX dist spl.jpg
Views:	240
Size:	419.9 KB
ID:	928289

                                                        Click image for larger version

Name:	Eton 8-412C832HEX dist pct.jpg
Views:	237
Size:	277.2 KB
ID:	928287

                                                        Raw response 2.83v, 1m,

                                                        Click image for larger version

Name:	Eton 8-412C832 HEX  var2 Directivity (hor) raw.png
Views:	228
Size:	203.6 KB
ID:	928291

                                                        Normalized,

                                                        Click image for larger version

Name:	Eton 8-412C832 HEX  var2 Directivity (hor) norm.png
Views:	230
Size:	189.6 KB
ID:	928288

                                                        Quick and dirty 1800 Hz LR4 on the woofer, something realistic to go with my tweeter requirement.

                                                        Click image for larger version

Name:	Eton 8-412C832 HEX  var2 Directivity (hor) xo.png
Views:	236
Size:	9.1 KB
ID:	928285

                                                        Click image for larger version

Name:	Eton 8-412C832 HEX  var2 Directivity (hor) xo ideal slope.png
Views:	231
Size:	53.0 KB
ID:	928286

                                                        Click image for larger version

Name:	Eton 8-412C832 HEX  var2 Directivity (hor) xo act slope.png
Views:	231
Size:	144.7 KB
ID:	928290 ​
                                                        Attached Files

                                                        Comment


                                                        • #29
                                                          HiVi LK8A, approximately $130.00 each,

                                                          Click image for larger version

Name:	HIVI LK8A data sheet.jpg
Views:	165
Size:	264.0 KB
ID:	928297

                                                          Click image for larger version

Name:	HIVI LK8A bottom.jpg
Views:	166
Size:	516.2 KB
ID:	928300

                                                          Click image for larger version

Name:	HIVI LK8A side.jpg
Views:	168
Size:	172.2 KB
ID:	928298

                                                          Click image for larger version

Name:	HIVI LK8A top.jpg
Views:	169
Size:	359.4 KB
ID:	928299



                                                          Comment


                                                          • #30
                                                            Free Air impedance,

                                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	HIVI LK8A imp free air.jpg
Views:	198
Size:	262.9 KB
ID:	928304

                                                            In Box impedance,

                                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	HIVI LK8A imp in box.jpg
Views:	201
Size:	254.2 KB
ID:	928302

                                                            Distortion 2.83 volts, 315mm,

                                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	HIVI LK8A dist spl.jpg
Views:	199
Size:	418.4 KB
ID:	928305

                                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	HIVI LK8A dist pct.jpg
Views:	202
Size:	273.3 KB
ID:	928303

                                                            Raw response 2.83v, 1m,

                                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	HiVi LK8A VituixCAD Directivity (hor) raw.png
Views:	198
Size:	194.6 KB
ID:	928310

                                                            Normalized,

                                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	HiVi LK8A VituixCAD Directivity (hor) norm.png
Views:	205
Size:	213.2 KB
ID:	928308

                                                            Quick and dirty 1800 Hz LR4 on the woofer, something realistic to go with my tweeter requirement.​

                                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	HiVi LK8A VituixCAD Directivity (hor) xo.png
Views:	198
Size:	8.4 KB
ID:	928307

                                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	HiVi LK8A VituixCAD Directivity (hor) wanted slope xo.png
Views:	198
Size:	51.5 KB
ID:	928309

                                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	HiVi LK8A VituixCAD Directivity (hor) act slope.png
Views:	203
Size:	139.1 KB
ID:	928311
                                                            Attached Files

                                                            Comment


                                                            • #31
                                                              Human Pro 005 woofer, approximately $83.00 each,

                                                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Human Pro 005 woofer specs.jpg
Views:	195
Size:	113.1 KB
ID:	928320

                                                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Human Pro 005 woofer bottom.jpg
Views:	183
Size:	451.9 KB
ID:	928323

                                                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Human Pro 005 woofer side.jpg
Views:	182
Size:	164.0 KB
ID:	928321

                                                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Human Pro 005 woofer top.jpg
Views:	184
Size:	330.5 KB
ID:	928322

                                                              Comment


                                                              • #32
                                                                Free Air impedance,

                                                                Click image for larger version

Name:	Human Pro 005 woofer imp free air.jpg
Views:	192
Size:	261.4 KB
ID:	928325

                                                                In Box impedance,

                                                                Click image for larger version

Name:	Human Pro 005 woofer imp in box.jpg
Views:	197
Size:	253.1 KB
ID:	928327

                                                                Distortion 2.83 volts, 315mm,

                                                                Click image for larger version

Name:	Human Pro 005 woofer dist spl.jpg
Views:	190
Size:	417.2 KB
ID:	928329

                                                                Click image for larger version

Name:	Human Pro 005 woofer dist pct.jpg
Views:	194
Size:	268.0 KB
ID:	928326

                                                                Raw response 2.83v, 1m,

                                                                Click image for larger version

Name:	VituixCAD Directivity (hor) no xo.png
Views:	193
Size:	163.2 KB
ID:	928328

                                                                Normalized,

                                                                Click image for larger version

Name:	VituixCAD Directivity (hor) norm.png
Views:	190
Size:	194.3 KB
ID:	928330

                                                                Quick and dirty 1800 Hz LR4 on the woofer, something realistic to go with my tweeter requirement.

                                                                No XO and results to post with this sample.

                                                                This woofer was meant to run as is with the Human Pro 002 tweeter.
                                                                ​

                                                                Comment


                                                                • #33
                                                                  SB Acoustics SB23NRSX45-8, approximately $110.00 each,

                                                                  Click image for larger version

Name:	SB23NRXS45-8 factory data sheet.jpg
Views:	200
Size:	343.6 KB
ID:	928339

                                                                  Click image for larger version

Name:	SB23NRXS45-8 bottom.jpg
Views:	198
Size:	389.0 KB
ID:	928340

                                                                  Click image for larger version

Name:	SB23NRXS45-8 side.jpg
Views:	198
Size:	140.3 KB
ID:	928338

                                                                  Click image for larger version

Name:	SB23NRXS45-8 top.jpg
Views:	199
Size:	297.4 KB
ID:	928341

                                                                  Comment


                                                                  • #34
                                                                    Free Air impedance,

                                                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	SB23NRXS45-8 imp free air.jpg
Views:	251
Size:	265.8 KB
ID:	928344

                                                                    In Box impedance,

                                                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	SB23NRXS45-8 imp in box.jpg
Views:	254
Size:	258.8 KB
ID:	928346

                                                                    Distortion 2.83 volts, 315mm,

                                                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	SB23NRXS45-8 dist spl.jpg
Views:	250
Size:	419.8 KB
ID:	928347

                                                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	SB23NRXS45-8 dist pct.jpg
Views:	267
Size:	278.7 KB
ID:	928343

                                                                    Raw response 2.83v, 1m,

                                                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	SB23NRXS48-8 VituixCAD Directivity (hor) raw.png
Views:	252
Size:	229.6 KB
ID:	928351

                                                                    Normalized,

                                                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	SB23NRXS48-8 VituixCAD Directivity (hor) raw norm.png
Views:	248
Size:	200.0 KB
ID:	928349

                                                                    Quick and dirty 1800 Hz LR4 on the woofer, something realistic to go with my tweeter requirement.

                                                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	SB23NRXS48-8 VituixCAD Directivity (hor) xo.png
Views:	257
Size:	7.5 KB
ID:	928348

                                                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	SB23NRXS48-8 VituixCAD Directivity (hor) slope.png
Views:	255
Size:	52.1 KB
ID:	928350

                                                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	SB23NRXS48-8 VituixCAD Directivity (hor) actual.png
Views:	257
Size:	153.9 KB
ID:	928345 ​

                                                                    Comment


                                                                    • #35
                                                                      Seas U22REX-P-SL, approximately $165.00 USD each,

                                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Seas U22REX-P-SL factory data sheet.jpg
Views:	192
Size:	490.0 KB
ID:	928357

                                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Seas U22REX-P-SL back.jpg
Views:	193
Size:	403.4 KB
ID:	928356

                                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Seas U22REX-P-SL side.jpg
Views:	195
Size:	156.2 KB
ID:	928355

                                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Seas U22REX-P-SL top.jpg
Views:	191
Size:	477.9 KB
ID:	928358

                                                                      Comment


                                                                      • #36
                                                                        That RS225 really is a champion woofer from 40hz to 250Hz.... with the right crossover a good midwoofer up to past 1KHz too...

                                                                        Comment


                                                                        • #37
                                                                          Free Air impedance,

                                                                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Seas U22REX-P-SL imp free air.jpg
Views:	212
Size:	256.2 KB
ID:	928362

                                                                          In Box impedance,

                                                                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Seas U22REX-P-SL imp in box.jpg
Views:	206
Size:	250.2 KB
ID:	928364

                                                                          Distortion 2.83 volts, 315mm,

                                                                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Seas U22REX-P-SL dist spl.jpg
Views:	212
Size:	415.4 KB
ID:	928363

                                                                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Seas U22REX-P-SL dist pct.jpg
Views:	216
Size:	271.7 KB
ID:	928361

                                                                          Raw response 2.83v, 1m,

                                                                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Seas U22REX-P-SL VituixCAD Directivity (hor) raw.png
Views:	206
Size:	216.1 KB
ID:	928369

                                                                          Normalized,

                                                                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Seas U22REX-P-SL VituixCAD Directivity (hor) norm.png
Views:	211
Size:	174.3 KB
ID:	928367

                                                                          Quick and dirty 1800 Hz LR4 on the woofer, something realistic to go with my tweeter requirement.

                                                                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Seas U22REX-P-SL VituixCAD Directivity (hor) xo.png
Views:	212
Size:	7.6 KB
ID:	928366

                                                                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Seas U22REX-P-SL VituixCAD Directivity (hor) slope.png
Views:	210
Size:	50.2 KB
ID:	928368

                                                                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Seas U22REX-P-SL VituixCAD Directivity (hor) actual.png
Views:	213
Size:	146.6 KB
ID:	928365 ​

                                                                          Comment


                                                                          • #38
                                                                            Wavecor SW223BD02, approximately $300.00 each,

                                                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	Wavecor SW223BD02 factory data sheet.jpg
Views:	191
Size:	442.5 KB
ID:	928373

                                                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	Wavecor SW223BD02 bottom.jpg
Views:	190
Size:	488.1 KB
ID:	928374

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Name:	Wavecor SW223BD02 side.jpg
Views:	191
Size:	160.5 KB
ID:	928371

                                                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	Wavecor SW223BD02 top.jpg
Views:	192
Size:	261.1 KB
ID:	928372

                                                                            Comment


                                                                            • #39
                                                                              Free Air impedance,

                                                                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Wavecor SW223BD02 imp free air.jpg
Views:	233
Size:	260.3 KB
ID:	928376

                                                                              In Box impedance,

                                                                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Wavecor SW223BD02 imp in box.jpg
Views:	230
Size:	261.9 KB
ID:	928378

                                                                              Distortion 2.83 volts, 315mm,

                                                                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Wavecor SW223BD02 dist spl.jpg
Views:	227
Size:	417.8 KB
ID:	928379

                                                                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Wavecor SW223BD02 dist pct.jpg
Views:	233
Size:	275.9 KB
ID:	928377

                                                                              Raw response 2.83v, 1m,

                                                                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Wavecor SW223DB02 Directivity (hor) raw.png
Views:	235
Size:	161.5 KB
ID:	928384

                                                                              Normalized,

                                                                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Wavecor SW223DB02 Directivity (hor) norm.png
Views:	230
Size:	187.4 KB
ID:	928382

                                                                              Quick and dirty 1800 Hz LR4 on the woofer, something realistic to go with my tweeter requirement.

                                                                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Wavecor SW223DB02 Directivity (hor) xo.png
Views:	234
Size:	8.9 KB
ID:	928381

                                                                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Wavecor SW223DB02 Directivity (hor) slope.png
Views:	231
Size:	47.4 KB
ID:	928383

                                                                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Wavecor SW223DB02 Directivity (hor) actual.png
Views:	233
Size:	130.8 KB
ID:	928380
                                                                              ​

                                                                              Comment


                                                                              • #40
                                                                                Originally posted by tktran View Post
                                                                                That RS225 really is a champion woofer from 40hz to 250Hz.... with the right crossover a good midwoofer up to past 1KHz too...
                                                                                But do note how the RSS210HF is an even better choice, with regards to the distortion floor and overall smooth extension. And with its 9mm Xmax, I would designate it as a long throw mid woofer, not a subwoofer, though it's low frequency extension with the right design moves it into that realm also. It straddles those categories very impressively... and at not unreasonable cost.


                                                                                Click image for larger version  Name:	fetch?id=928271&d=1675032701.jpg Views:	0 Size:	420.7 KB ID:	928408




                                                                                Time spent examining the woofer impedance curves before testing can greatly winnow the "playing field", as it might be called...

                                                                                On the application side, a series resonant network to address the primary breakup mode at 4500Hz will be desirable, along with a parallel shunt network before hand to address the 7 kHz area, if class leading performance is desired.
                                                                                DFAL
                                                                                Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                                A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                • #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by Evil Twin View Post
                                                                                  But do note how the RSS210HF is an even better choice, with regards to the distortion floor and overall smooth extension.
                                                                                  RSS210 is going to need a good 3dB higher output to really make apples to apples distortion comparison for a given SPL. Perhaps test at 4-5V instead of 2.83V would make sense for these low sensitivity subwoofers being considered.

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                  • #42
                                                                                    Monacor SPH-200KE woofer, approximately $140.00,

                                                                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	SPH-200KE data sheet 1.jpg
Views:	127
Size:	114.3 KB
ID:	928523

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Name:	SPH-200KE data sheet 2.jpg
Views:	131
Size:	108.5 KB
ID:	928524

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Name:	SPH-200KE back.jpg
Views:	130
Size:	311.3 KB
ID:	928527

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Name:	SPH-200KE side.jpg
Views:	133
Size:	199.8 KB
ID:	928525

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Name:	SPH-200KE top.jpg
Views:	130
Size:	307.3 KB
ID:	928526



                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                    • #43
                                                                                      Free Air impedance,

                                                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	SPH-200KE imp free air.jpg
Views:	152
Size:	260.7 KB
ID:	928530

                                                                                      In Box impedance,

                                                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	SPH-200KE imp in box.jpg
Views:	153
Size:	250.2 KB
ID:	928529

                                                                                      Distortion 2.83 volts, 315mm,

                                                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	SPH-200KE dist spl.jpg
Views:	150
Size:	434.3 KB
ID:	928535

                                                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	SPH-200KE dist pct.jpg
Views:	150
Size:	289.7 KB
ID:	928532


                                                                                      Raw response 2.83v, 1m,

                                                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	VituixCAD Directivity (hor) raw.png
Views:	152
Size:	219.9 KB
ID:	928537

                                                                                      Normalized,

                                                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	VituixCAD Directivity (hor) norm.png
Views:	151
Size:	197.0 KB
ID:	928533

                                                                                      Quick and dirty 1800 Hz LR4 on the woofer, something realistic to go with my tweeter requirement.

                                                                                      ​
                                                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	VituixCAD Directivity (hor) xo.png
Views:	151
Size:	7.8 KB
ID:	928534

                                                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	VituixCAD Directivity (hor) target slope.png
Views:	149
Size:	51.4 KB
ID:	928536

                                                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	VituixCAD Directivity (hor) actual slope.png
Views:	149
Size:	137.0 KB
ID:	928531

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                      • #44
                                                                                        Peerless HDS-P830869, approximately $65.00 each,

                                                                                        Click image for larger version

Name:	HDS-830869 data sheet.jpg
Views:	130
Size:	299.8 KB
ID:	928541

                                                                                        Click image for larger version

Name:	HDS-830869 back.jpg
Views:	129
Size:	354.7 KB
ID:	928540

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Name:	HDS-830869 side.jpg
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ID:	928539

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ID:	928542



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                                                                                        • #45
                                                                                          Free Air impedance,

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Name:	HDS-830869 imp free air.jpg
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ID:	928545

                                                                                          In Box impedance,

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Name:	HDS-830869 imp in box.jpg
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ID:	928544

                                                                                          Distortion 2.83 volts, 315mm,

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Name:	HDS-830869 dist spl.jpg
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ID:	928548

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Name:	HDS-830869 dist pct.jpg
Views:	157
Size:	274.6 KB
ID:	928552


                                                                                          Raw response 2.83v, 1m,

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Name:	VituixCAD Directivity (hor) raw.png
Views:	149
Size:	200.6 KB
ID:	928546

                                                                                          Normalized,

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Name:	VituixCAD Directivity (hor) raw normalized.png
Views:	150
Size:	185.2 KB
ID:	928547

                                                                                          Quick and dirty 1800 Hz LR4 on the woofer, something realistic to go with my tweeter requirement.

                                                                                          ​
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Name:	VituixCAD Directivity (hor) xo.png
Views:	154
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ID:	928549

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Name:	VituixCAD Directivity (hor) slope.png
Views:	150
Size:	49.4 KB
ID:	928551

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Name:	VituixCAD Directivity (hor) slope actual.png
Views:	151
Size:	153.1 KB
ID:	928550

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