Update to NatalieP?

[Evil Twin]

Surprisingly, several people have contacted me about the possibility of an update to the NatalieP, more than just a tweeter tweak- and the possibility of a more compact shelf friendly version.

Recent driver evaluations have opened the feasibility of discussion and development on this topic, which all things considered, would not require a particularly large effort.

But for it to be worthwhile to spend time on this, there should either be cost/performance improvements or significant performance improvements possible... is that the case?


To create a smaller NatalieP, would mandate a different driver set, in order to fit on reduced front panel space and perform reasonably with reduced enclosure volume- reasonably meaning adequate LF extension and low coloration.

One recent new driver comes to mind that may full fill this, with possibly better suitability to full range than the one chosen for the Nascent. It's also possible that these two configurations should be evaluated carefully and merged onto a common development path.




More recent test evaluations and listening tests in new systems have convinced me that lowering the distortion floor is a key requirement. In searching my test data base, one tweeter possibility stands out with superlative performance at a price well below many of the logical contenders, and with much better HD2 performance than those contenders.

Transducer Labs N26






Anyone who is aware of better performing contenders in these classes, are welcome to bring forward information for consideration- hard data is most appreciated in this case.

[Jonasz]

My sisters family is enjoying their NatP's daily. They still sound fantastic after, what is it, eight years? 8O:B



So, if you have some extra time and a pair of W15 laying around, why not do a version with them also? :B
Just kidding, I'm in need of a really good passive design but I suck at passive crossovers... :cry:

[Evil Twin]

Thank you for the memory jog- I actually DO have a pair of W15 "lying around", and data measured in a small format enclosure (NHT XDS)





In comparison, another contender, the Zaph ZA14



Both are in the -60dB range at the test drive level (2.83 VRMS), and both have some distortion resonance amplification from their metal cones.

Both may do reasonably well with a crossover in the 1500-1800Hz area, with sufficient slopes.

This crossover was created for the XDS components:

[5th element]

ZA14 vs W15. I think I'd most certainly go with the ZA14, much lower price, looks awesome, equal HD to the W15, slightly less midrange flatness but has that pesky resonance a little higher up.

One of the attractions of the original NatP was it's price. If you went Transducer Labs + W15 it'd end up ridiculously expensive. Using a pair of ZAs would really help keep the price down. Then again a pair of Esoterics + TransLab tweeter wouldn't exactly be cheap either.

I almost get the impression that you could replace the NatP with the Nascent and then do a brand new MTM design using the TL + Esoterics. If you went back to the 9130 tweeter in the Nascent, then you'd have a top notch performer at a reasonable cost and then have the Esoterics + TL design for those wanting to spend a little more.

[Evil Twin]

ZA14 vs W15. I think I'd most certainly go with the ZA14, much lower price, looks awesome, equal HD to the W15, slightly less midrange flatness but has that pesky resonance a little higher up.

One of the attractions of the original NatP was it's price. If you went Transducer Labs + W15 it'd end up ridiculously expensive. Using a pair of ZAs would really help keep the price down. Then again a pair of Esoterics + TransLab tweeter wouldn't exactly be cheap either.

I almost get the impression that you could replace the NatP with the Nascent and then do a brand new MTM design using the TL + Esoterics. If you went back to the 9130 tweeter in the Nascent, then you'd have a top notch performer at a reasonable cost and then have the Esoterics + TL design for those wanting to spend a little more.

These are all reasonable suggestions- and with materials on hand, there is not expense other than the investment of time.

[5th element]

Someone needs to put more pressure on those imperial scientists to develop that time dilation device at a quicker pace!

[Jonasz]

ZA14 vs W15. I think I'd most certainly go with the ZA14, much lower price, looks awesome, equal HD to the W15, slightly less midrange flatness but has that pesky resonance a little higher up.

One of the attractions of the original NatP was it's price. If you went Transducer Labs + W15 it'd end up ridiculously expensive. Using a pair of ZAs would really help keep the price down. Then again a pair of Esoterics + TransLab tweeter wouldn't exactly be cheap either.

I almost get the impression that you could replace the NatP with the Nascent and then do a brand new MTM design using the TL + Esoterics. If you went back to the 9130 tweeter in the Nascent, then you'd have a top notch performer at a reasonable cost and then have the Esoterics + TL design for those wanting to spend a little more.

ZA14 is a steal at $39, but not available outside the US(?). Still going to be decent value after import to Europe. The same can't be said about the new Esoterics though, at $120 each they will be more expensive than W15, Satori and about level with the SS15W.

[---k---]

That tweeter looks very nice, but what is up with the square face plate.

[5th element]

ZA14 is a steal at $39, but not available outside the US(?). Still going to be decent value after import to Europe. The same can't be said about the new Esoterics though, at $120 each they will be more expensive than W15, Satori and about level with the SS15W.

Indeed. I'd expect the 5" Satori to be rather nice once they get released. We can already get the 6" version for £120 from Falcon Acoustics. If the 5" version tops in at just below £100 it'll be the no.1 choice in that size imo - unless you want a metal cone. There are already a few distributors for Dayton in the EU, it will be interesting to see how the pricing comes in. Certainly the Esoteric range wont be cheap, but if the performance is there they should be direct rivals for the Esoteric, Revelator and Satori ranges.

[TacoD]

I think the ZA14 is very good for its money but not big of enough step up compared to the RS180. I would vote for something available in EU/ USA, for tweeter I would suggest satori inverted dome if a soft dome is allowed otherwise it will be a though choice (not much affordable hard domes around which sound decent).

[Hdale85]

An mtm with those new Dayton's would sure make a nice floor standing speaker with some bass bins.

IMHO the za14 had been around a while now and used a lot. I like to see new stuff in new designs.

[Hdale85]

Also I think the original NatP's still offer excellent value and performance so personally I see no issues with stepping up the budget a bit on the new design.

[JonMarsh]

Also I think the original NatP's still offer excellent value and performance so personally I see no issues with stepping up the budget a bit on the new design.

It's a testimony to the the Dayton RS drivers that a 9 year old design holds up so well based on the fundamental driver performance. I'd think that any follow on might need to select the drivers rather carefully. I think the idea of smaller version with the ES140ti focused on very low midband and top end distortion is interesting, but I do wonder how the ES180ti driver will stack up against the venerable RS180? Unfortunately, the ES180ti are out of stock, and not expected back in until early December!

I imagine a lot of folks (myself included) are hoping that a the incredibly smooth frequency response of the ES140ti was obtained by using too much smoothing of the measured data. I HAVE seen realistic wideband data that looks this ideal, if you're doing good near field measurements on an IB; of course, anything involving a cabinet and a room and a more normal mic position are going to show a lot of other effects.

IF these drivers pan out, I'd say there's probably still a pretty good value proposition, because the overall performance may easily be in the ScanSpeak range (better considering tweeter HD2), but with a far lower driver cost.

[Evil Twin]

Because of the T/S characteristics of the ES140ti, it presents some unusual opportunities in the right enclosure design- but not necessarily a particularly small one.




On the surface, the moderately high Fs would seem to preclude low frequency extension, and for a sealed enclosure this is the case. However, the overall Qts and mechanical parameters present the opportunity to tune below the driver resonance, using a moderate size enclosure (large, perhaps, for dual 5" drivers, in fact, of about the same size as the original NatalieP), and with a bit of analysis, an eminently usable design in the original enclosure size emerges.



It will be most interesting to determine if the actual construction will realize an Enclosure F3 of 38 Hz as predicted in this model. Unlike the original NatalieP, which benefitted from larger tower constructions in low frequency extension, this appears to be the optimum case for the ES140ti drivers.

[Hdale85]

Yeah I'm interested in the 7" as well but that sucks about the next batch date! I guess they ordered a small batch for the first run due to being unsure if they would sell? Hopefully the next batch is bigger because both of those drivers look incredibly sexy I was thinking about using the 7" with the new scanspeak automotive tweeter in my car possibly.

[JonMarsh]

That tweeter looks very nice, but what is up with the square face plate.

Uh, technically it's rectangular. :W

They do have a special version, that's round, but the rectangular construction is standard. As much as the ginormous double magnet weights, the rectangular may be a good idea.

[Hdale85]

What would you think of the 5.25" MTM like you suggest with an attached bassbin that used side firing Ultimax 8's or 10's? How do you feel about side firing bass bins I guess is the question.... Just thinking of something the same width as the MTM section it would look nice and not be large. If you end up using the Esotaric drivers I'm kind of thinking these may be my next speakers with the side firing bass bin or something if it would work well enough.

[Hdale85]

Too soon Jon? lol

[JonMarsh]

The issue might be selecting the bass drivers you use- the L26RO4Y is about 6" deep, and the UMAX 10" is pretty deep, too- OTOH, PE is now carrying low profile 10" Dayton Audio subwoofers with 10mm Xmax that are only about 4" deep. If you go with an active crossover around 125 or so, it ought to work pretty well.... works for KEF and a lot of other companies pretty nicely!

[Hdale85]

Yeah I guess I didn't think much of the depth. The 10" Ultimax is 5.7" deep, hmmm......

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...4-ohm--295-251 These are the ones you're talking about I'm sure. I wonder how they'd perform as a mid-bass in a 3 way tower design. I know they aren't terribly efficient but running them active with their own amp would likely take care of that.

The Peerless XLS 10" is also just under 5", think that would leave enough behind the driver?

[JonMarsh]

That sounds like it would be in the ball park, with the XLS 10. But I like the T/S parameters of the LS10-44 for a sealed woofer with an alignment like 0.6 or so- could work pretty well. SB acoustics also has the SB Acoustics SW26DAC76-4 10" Subwoofer which looks promising on paper- the 4 ohm version has T/S parameters good for a sealed system or PR, wire two in series, or use one by itself; the 8 ohm version looks better for ported. I just have no idea how good the motor is in those, may not be up to the same standards as the balanced drive Wavecor, hard to know without shelling out some significant bucks. Cone break up is at 1500 Hz, and they mention a shorting ring for reduced distortion. It would cost a small fortune to test every promising driver out there, though, wouldn't it? :W

[Hdale85]

Yeah, TB isn't exactly well known for having terribly accurate T/S parameters posted either lol.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, TB isn't exactly well known for having terribly accurate T/S parameters posted either lol.

...and that's the diplomatic way of putting it... plus the Kippel analysis of their 8" woofer was rather disappointing.

[wowo101]

A complete Klippel test of the SB Acoustics SW26DAC76 can be found here. Bottom line: "This (…) is not what you'd want to see from a $380 driver. Symmetry on all curves lies 4-6mm out."

[JonMarsh]

A complete Klippel test of the SB Acoustics SW26DAC76 can be found here. Bottom line: "This (…) is not what you'd want to see from a $380 driver. Symmetry on all curves lies 4-6mm out."

Unfortunately, baed on the Kippel analysis of the 8" SB acoustics driver I bought earlier this year, that is pretty much what I might expect. Actually, I'd expect that even if a $80 is all that good, they'd get their act together for a $380 one. Sorry to see this isn't the case....

[JonMarsh]

Upon detailed review of the link you provided, I'd have to say, diplomatically, that's wretched. Like a number of other drivers I've seen tested over the last few years, the available Cms linearity is totally inadequate for the claimed Xmas. Worse yet, as you point out, the offsets are monstrous- a combined total failure of design and manufacturing, I suppose...

[wowo101]

One possible explanation that came up in the Techtalk thread was that "its suspension [might be] tailor made for horizontal mounting" – although SB's website doesn't claim any special purpose for the driver.

[5th element]

I wonder whether or not the offset has anything to do with the unusual low mounting depth of the driver. There must be more constraints than just the motor issues to get to grips with. Still I don't know.

The other SB8" actually measured pretty darned good wrt distortion and certainly nothing to sniff at considering the price.

http://www.audiogurman.com/3.htm#sb23nacs45-8

[Hdale85]

What price point are you trying to hit with the tweeter for these? Seems like 300 bucks each is a bit high lol. Not crazy I guess but quite a bit higher than the rest of the components we've been talking about. The N26 price isn't bad, although the square faceplate is kind of a pain.

[5th element]

Personally I'd seriously consider the DXT from SEAS, it too has low 2nd harmonic, especially when compared to the newer scan-speak stuff, has the ability to cross over really low, which would help with the MTM integration and has some degree of pattern control. (It's not ridiculously expensive either!).

[BobEllis]

The N26 are not as tough as the large radius on Focal's tweeters. The radius is 6.3 mm so a rectangular template and a 1/2" pattern bit will work, but won't allow much clearance for finish.

[Hdale85]

Yea that is true, I guess with a pattern bit it wouldn't be that hard to cut out.

[JonMarsh]

The earlier version of the NatalieP used one of the best under $100 tweeters. It's ranking hasn't really changed much, in the intervening years- you could go with the soft version if you want, I suppose.

The N26CX-T version from TL is just under $100 each at Meniscus Audio. The aluminum former version is $137.

Matt's suggestion for the DXT is pretty reasonable, but I have this predilection to avoid tweeters with high Q resonances just above the audio band- for me, that rules out the DXT. But I can certainly see how others may want to give it a whirl. I'd rather see that break up in the 30 kHz or above neighborhood- or not at all.



The comments on the Audioexcite page seem pretty evenhanded and detailed.

http://www.audioexcite.com/?page_id=2242

The N26 is pretty reasonable at it's price point....



In the end, sometimes choices like this are based on subjective impressions, and our emotional choices about where we want to expend effort. While this system will be built to a much lower price point than something like the Wavecor Ardent, I think it ought to have as much clarity and neutrality as possible at moderate listening levels.

Now, about those Esoteric ES140ti's..... really need to see some measurements!

[cjd]

FWIW, I think the ES180ti may struggle as much as the RS180 when it comes to midrange duty. I don't know how final the version I heard was, and it was in a noisy room, but... The ES140ti was, I think, nominally better, making it a bit easier to work with. Nice sound, but it didn't jump out at me.

The cheap SB 6" made an impression - very nice sound - as did the BG Neo10...

I suspect both Esoteric (particularly the 7) will work superbly in 3-ways. The tweeter was tough to judge, but seems quite nice. It's just unclear just how well they hold up to their price point. It sounds like the 7" will be nigh impossible to damage...

I'm always a little disappointed when the TL tweeters are discussed. Their website no longer makes me feel very unwelcome, but the memory remains and it's tough to get past. The CF domes sure are pretty though

[5th element]

My problem with the TL stuff is that they are very expensive this side of the pond. We're talking 150 Euros, which puts them at around $190 each. Whereas the DXT costs only 50 Euros.

As the Esoterics aren't going to be cheap in the EU either, this would make the NatP revision extremely expensive. I'm not outright knocking that, but if the idea of the design is to make something semi-affordable, (ie not RS cheap, but not scanspeak expensive), then it would actually miss that mark for European customers. I don't know how many people actually build your designs Jon, you'd probably have a better idea of that, and if 90% of the builders are in the US then you could just ignore this, but if there's a decent spread around the EU it might be worth considering.

I was rather excited when I first saw the TL products with their very attractive prices, but I became most disheartened when I saw what they cost in the EU.

[Hdale85]

Chris did you test them your self? Or hear them elsewhere?

Matt, I think majority of people here are definitely US based and Jon's stuff does get built a lot. It really does suck how much more expensive things can be over there though granted most of that are taxes over there I believe? There's probably 100+ NatP's out there though.....at least I wouldn't be surprised by that number at all.

[cjd]

I heard them at the Iowa event this past weekend. No impressions are really from listening critically, and I'm not sure the 7"+tweet was even more than a prototype. I'd really like to try them out.

C

[Hdale85]

Yea they look incredible, maybe the designer doesn't work the same sort of magic Jon does with crossovers? Lol

[Evil Twin]

As a budget design, and hopefully high value, the existing NatalieP is not to be superseded. However, numerous inputs have requested an upgrade to the design with something approaching first tier components, at least in performance, and that is the target in this case.

For the Europeans, I will also be looking at the 6600 and 71000 Scanspeaks, in what might be described as "contrast and compare". How they will perform compared to the TL tweeters should be most interesting to observe... there may be surprises, but then again, there may not be.

I also am considering the possibility that some of the directions I have investigated for the Nascent will influence this design- in particularly both a B3 and modified LR3 alignment (as used in the original NatalieP) will be built and investigated. The phase quadrature of a B3 MTM alignment produces a taller vertical dispersion window in the crossover region- but requires more bandwidth of the drivers. Which will measure and sound better? That remains to be seen. Note also that the B3 alignment can be implemented more cleanly while providing some driver offset compensation, as the Nascent design does, while the modified LR3 was specifically developed for flat baffle mounting and takes advantage of and requires the time delay on the mid woofer.

Interesting questions to resolve. And this will proceed with the ES140ti, as we specifically wish to evaluate the midrange characteristics of this impressive driver.

[Jonasz]

Jon, JeffB has measured the SS9900 and says it is the best dome he's ever measured and also overall the best sounding one. It also has a (shallow) wg and IMHO looks badass so maybe you want to take a look at it too?

[JonMarsh]

Interesting - the faceplate resembles the 9130, but it is an older Revelatory design? On paper it doesn't look as smooth as the 71000, but with Jeff's recommendation that bears investigating.

[JonMarsh]

I found some of Jeff's measured data. This looks quite good as a start- would need to do an axis family of curves and my own distortion checks.



The scale is a bit compressed compared with what I'm used to plotting, though, rather small spaces for 5 dB differences.

I also found out that Solen sells the TL Be dome tweeters, now, too. Not cheap, $300 each, not a casual investigation. That means they'd be really pricey in Europe- kind of like what SS Be tweeter are here! It does bear investigating, when my discretionary budget allows! Maybe next month... might give me an excuse to setup and play with REW a bit more, see what it can do, too.

But considering the costs, maybe a comparo between the 9900 and the 71000 would be more appropriate and interesting... for now.

[Hdale85]

A Be dome tweeter for only $300?

[Face]

A Be dome tweeter for only $300?

Doesn't sound right to me either.

[Hdale85]

If it's true I vote for that lol!