Modula MT-XE - You didn't ask for it... it's coming anyway

[JonMarsh]

Warning about the D2608/9130

It's internal leads are fragile- found that out the "hard way".

Here's what the VC replacement assembly looks like - notice something?



The wire leads to the terminals are rather long and VERY delicate- I just managed to break both wires on two tweeters by soldering to the terminals in a fashion which has never been a problem before with any other tweeter I've used.

Use caution working with these. I'll probably go with push on leads or very light gauge wires. Maybe wrap bus light bus wire on the heavier wire. I think just wiggling the leads too much can break the inner leads. Good thing a replacement VC assembly is only $30.

[JonMarsh]

Well, I think I have the path forward figured out.

Well, I've got some gold plated 0.187" quick connects- they're better for the narrow tab terminals used on tweeters like these- that's what I'm going to try this evening- use some AWG14 bus, wrap around the Kimber wire, then an extension lead with the quick connect on it, plugged to the tweeter. Secured by a cable tie hold down or two, maybe a dab of hot glue on the back of the tweeters. Film by 8 tonight, probably.

I'm jazzed to get these done for a few reasons-

1) I need to deliver them Saturday!!

2) Been making some minor hardware tweaks, really pleased how these are going together

3) Want to hear the latest hardware project on them.


Evil Twin has modified a terran Pioneer DV79AVi disk player, enabling it to output 24bit/176.4 kHz PCM on a custom SPDIF board output when playing SACD disks (high resolution PCM down converted from DSD, using a custom processor with 37 bit math and 48 bit accumulators), with Imperial Sector decryption technology originally developed by the electronics division of Seinar Industries to intercept encrypted rebel communications. This way, it can drive any conventional high performance DAC capable of quad rate inputs ( up to 192 kHz, but in this case, 176.4 kHz at 24 bits) with high quality down sampling and suppression of ultrasonic noise with the digital filter architecture. I believe this will have other applications besides playback, but that remains to be tested and protocols developed.

You wouldn't believe the trouble he had reprogramming an interrogation droid to do fine pitch soldering and point to point wiring...



I've been listening to this unit all weekend through headphones, through my Berkeley Alpha DAC, playing single layer SACD's. You might be surprised how good something even like Kenny Loggins Greatest Hits sounds through that setup. I can't afford the SACD players that have really, really good DACs. Whether this will compare with a dCS system is not something I can say, but it spanks my $3500 Marantz SA-11.

But this has been a big time sink, and it has just finished "phase one".

[Johnloudb]

Now, that's definitely a worthwhile project! Too bad the music industry is so intent in stifling high end audio reproduction. Kudos, Evil Twin for taking up this effort! The Dark Side seems to have some redeeming qualities after all, or is the Dark One turning? What about the dark emperor? Some seem to think he has already turned over a new leaf?

http://www.ptank.com/bucket/catsynth_images/palp.jpg

Disclaimer: That's not my pic ... maybe the work of some rebel scum?

[Mark K]

:W hey now, wait a minute...is that just an oppo 83 in there...

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/transports/high-definition-dvd-players-hd-dvd-blu-ray/lexicon-bd-30-blu-ray-oppo-clone/oppo-inside-lexicon-outside-1

If only Lexicon put their plate on your machine, perhaps it would be worth it...

[JonMarsh]

Well, Mark, in this case all I was really interested in was DSD to LPCM conversion at high bit/sample rate; the Pioneer has the right chip set to lift the DSD out after decryption and pipe it elsewhere. Have some other plans for this, if it works out, besides playback through the Alpha DAC. That's required me to convert my Mac Pro into a bit of a digital audio workstation.

The Cambridge Audio BD-650 also has a ton of Oppo DNA, even the power supply is basically the same though the color of the PCB was changed.

At least Ayre, when they start with a BD83, throw away the power board and audio board. And build a new chassis from scratch.







Charlie's explanation of the DX-5:

To make it an Ayre, we dismantle it completely and recycle everything except the main PCB (with the video decoder, ABT scaler chip, and HDMI transmitter), the transport mechanism, the VFD display, and the remote control handset.

Next we re-build the main PCB. The big switching power supply only provides 5 VDC, then there are little mini-switching power supplies (called DC-DC converters) on the main PCB that turn the 5 VDC into 1.0 VDC, 1.1 VDC, 1.8 VDC, and 3.3 VDC. All of those are removed. There are also USB power switches that allow hot-plugging of USB devices. These are removed as they have another kind of DC-DC converter called a "charge pump".

All of the supplies are replaced with pure linear supplies with analog regulators. The USB power switches are replaced with devices without the charge pumps. Now we have gotten rid of seven noise sources that create high-frequency square waves with harmonics well out into the MHz region. Getting rid of all of that noise creates a visibly cleaner picture.

Next, we replace the low-quality master video clock with a VCXO. This becomes more important later on, as you will see.

Now we start adding things back in. First is our AyreLink communication system. It allows AyreLink equipped components to act as one big system. For example, turning on the player will turn on all of the downstream components as well as automatically select the correct input on the preamp. We also make an external RS-232 to AyreLink converter box for system controllers like Crestrons. The AyreLink system has opto-isolators between each component to avoid unwanted ground loops, which is why we don't use RS-232 inputs on any of our equipment.

Then we add a custom programmed FPGA on the front panel PCB to do some housekeeping. It intercepts the appropriate commands and translates them to operate the AyreLink system. It disables the internal volume control (which operates in the digital domain and degrades the sound) and instead routes the volume changes to an AyreLink equipped preamp. It also allows us to send custom messages to the front panel VFD display. So when the USB audio input is activated, it will report that on the front panel along with the sample rate of the received signal.

There are a bunch of boards added on the audio side. I say "side" because we literally split the player into two parts. There is a separate power transformer that runs all of the audio circuitry, which is separated from the video side by a bank of opto-isolators. So the audio and video "sides" have separate grounds that are completely galvanically isolated. This is the only way to get the best performance from either your audio system or your video system.

All video displays have switching power supplies that dump noise into your system in the absence of such isolation. There are also ground loops that are inevitably formed as there is no such thing as a balanced video connection. All of those problems go away with our isolation system.

The ten-channel audio board is replaced by a two-channel audio board. Everything on this board is top-quality, with discrete, fully balanced, zero-feedback audio circuitry and discrete, zero-feedback power supply regulators. There are improvements in both the parts quality and circuit design that give it even higher performance than the QB-9 USB DAC that was recently rated "Class A+" in Stereophile's recommended components issue. For two-channel disc playback (CD, SACD, DVD-Audio), the performance exceeds our $6,000 audio-only disc player.

We also add the USB audio input that allows you to connect your personal computer and turn your system into a music server. Your entire digital library (except SACD's, thank you very much Sony -- not!) can be stored on a hard drive and played back with the click of a mouse. So this one component can be the only source component that you need. This input is also connected via a bank of opto-isolators, so there is actually a *third* "side" to the system -- the video, the audio, and the computer. The noise from your computer and its switching power supply will not be connected to either your video or audio systems.

We also add a second audio-only HDMI connector. This is fed by the isolated signals on the audio "side" so that it won't contaminate your surround-sound system if you choose to connect one. It also supports the new "Audio Rate Control" (ARC) feature that is part of the HDMI 1.3a specifcation. This is a breakthrough for the surround-sound enthusiast, as HDMI is normally the worst way in the world to send audio data -- the jitter is even worse than the lowly S/PDIF connection.

But with ARC, the surround-sound processor uses a local crystal oscillator to provide a low-jitter clock to the DAC chips. Then there is a buffer that stores the incoming audio data. When the buffer is too full it sends a signal back upstream to the Blu-Ray player telling it to slow down the disc slightly. When the buffer is too empty, it asks the disc to speed up slightly. Now the audio clock is in charge, the way that it should be. (When the unit is running in two-channel mode, the local low-jitter, fixed-frequency crystal oscillator provides the master audio clock.)

With a modern digital display (plasma, LCD, LCOS, DLP, et cetera) jitter on the video signal does not matter. Since there is no conversion to analog, the digital signal values are simply stored in a frame buffer until needed.

Then the whole thing is put into a custom chassis made entirely from anodized aluminum and stainless steel. We want our products to look just as good 50 years from now as they do today. There are other people making Oppo "clones". One of them only replaces the chassis. Another replaces the power supply also. Nobody is rebuilding the complete player and adding the extra features and advanced technology that Ayre is.

As far as the value, it is up to you to determine that. I can't tell you how much an improved picture is worth. I can't tell you how much better sound is worth. I can't tell you how much the features we add are worth. You will have to decide that for yourself.

What I can tell you is that, just like all of our other products, they offer engineering and performance beyond what anyone else is offering, at a fair price that reflects our cost of manufacturing, and that we back up our products with both a strong network of the finest dealers on the planet and an incredible service policy.

Unlike other manufacturers that try to sell you a "new and improved" product every year or two, when we figure out a way to genuinely improve the performance of our existing products, we offer upgrades to current owners at very reasonable prices. Go to the Audio Asylum and check out some comments regarding our recent "MP" upgrades to the C-5xe and CX-7e disc players, for example.

If you want a great Blu-Ray player for an incredible price, buy the Oppo. If you want the best picture and sound quality in the world for your home theater and price is not a concern, check out the Ayre.

Just a weeee bit different!

Lexicon is doing something rather a bit less... I'd call it re-badging, certainly not re-engineering.

[JonMarsh]

Now, that's definitely a worthwhile project! Too bad the music industry is so intent in stifling high end audio reproduction. Kudos, Evil Twin for taking up this effort! The Dark Side seems to have some redeeming qualities after all, or is the Dark One turning? What about the dark emperor? Some seem to think he has already turned over a new leaf?

http://www.ptank.com/bucket/catsynth_images/palp.jpg

Disclaimer: That's not my pic ... maybe the work of some rebel scum?

Well, technically what ET is doing is definitely a dark side effort, as digital out for DSD is not normally supported except in a fully encrypted signal path (like Pioneer Legato Link and Denon iLink. There's pro gear of course with SPDIF 3 and wideband DSD output capability, starting with Korg's and Tascam in the $3-5K range, but that's not what we're talking about. The SCM bit is implemented on the data stream- whether a downstream device pays attention to that is another matter. Some I/O interfaces, like the MAudio Audiophile 24/192 have that implemented in the hardware level drivers. Others don't. :W

[Pablo]

There was another waveguide kit manufacturer in Europe somewhere making bolt-on waveguides. I have not been able to contact them for an order of them and I've since lost the link.

Not sure if this could help:

http://hifitalo.fi/cat/product_details.php?p=999

Some examples, as well as modifications of the Monacor WG-300 to fit other domes:

http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/anukaa/WaveGuides/WaveGuides.html

Pablo.

[JonMarsh]

Another waveguide I've tried to track down without luck is the Jantzen custom part used in their high efficiency two way, machined from solid POM plastic. This was setup to work with a specific Audax tweeter. While there is documentation about the kit on the Jantzen site, I haven't been able to find an online dealer that actually carries it.

[jkrutke]

Another waveguide I've tried to track down without luck is the Jantzen custom part used in their high efficiency two way, machined from solid POM plastic. This was setup to work with a specific Audax tweeter. While there is documentation about the kit on the Jantzen site, I haven't been able to find an online dealer that actually carries it.

I've been looking for a similar offering. There was one I saw one day at a particular European vendor, but I lost the link and can't find it again. The one I saw was not the common Monacor WG-300 which is available worldwide except for North America. The Monacor has a protruding inside lip which really only fits their DT-300 tweeter.

If I recall, I tried to email these folks at one time, hoping that they spoke/read english but didn't get a response. I'll keep looking myself.

[jkrutke]

Not sure if this could help:

http://hifitalo.fi/cat/product_details.php?p=999

Doh! that's the one I was talking about. I couldn't get a response from them to place an overseas order. But it looks like it has potential.

[JonMarsh]

Doh! that's the one I was talking about. I couldn't get a response from them to place an overseas order. But it looks like it has potential.

How's your Finnish, John? My Finnish is pretty rusty... I have a few Swedish friends in Austria (I know, that's weird in an of itself, but it's work related), maybe I can get them to check this out. If they're setup to ship in Europe (highly likely), that's a possibility. Price isn't high, but taxes kill you over there!

[Face]

Jon, if your friends don't pan out, I have someone in Sweden I can get in touch with.

[Dennis H]

Google translate works pretty well with the Scandinavian languages, at least well enough to make an email understandable.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fhifitalo.fi%2Fcat%2Fproduct_details.php%3Fp%3D999&sl=fi&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

Edit: well except it translated Audioparts Finland OY into Audio Parts Australia Pty Ltd (shrug).

[Mark K]

Well, Mark, in this case all I was really interested in was DSD to LPCM conversion at high bit/sample rate; the Pioneer has the right chip set to lift the DSD out after decryption and pipe it elsewhere. Have some other plans for this, if it works out, besides playback through the Alpha DAC. That's required me to convert my Mac Pro into a bit of a digital audio workstation.

The Cambridge Audio BD-650 also has a ton of Oppo DNA, even the power supply is basically the same though the color of the PCB was changed.

At least Ayre, when they start with a BD83, throw away the power board and audio board. And build a new chassis from scratch.







Charlie's explanation of the DX-5:

Just a weeee bit different!

Lexicon is doing something rather a bit less... I'd call it re-badging, certainly not re-engineering.

Hey,
I'm all for improving on a design-which is exactly what the Ayre sounds like. And I don't have a problem with companies at least offering something in exchange for the price. I might not pay for upgraded caps, etc, but it is reasonable to pay for this.

Lexicon is doing something different unfortunately. They are using there name and a nice faceplate/exterior, only, to sell an otherwise indistinguishable product. This seems disingenous at best.
What, their engineers couldn't upgrade the caps, tweak the ps a little? Really, this is audiophile plagarism, isn't it? And the company involved is a respectable one. Not like some of the folks banned from this forum...

I was just pointing out the irony-someone would look at the pedestrian looks of your hot rod pioneer, not realizing what was under the hood, and be "blown away when the veil was lifted" with the lexicon.

"The picture was so realistic that even my wife, who is not a videophile, in fact, wasn't even in the room...well, she could tell the difference right away..." :lol:

anyway, sorry for the OT rant.

let us know how this setup sounds, since you're probably going to be up into the wee hours finishing it for tomorrow...er, this saturday...

[JonMarsh]

Was up in the wee hours relatively (considering I normally get up at 3:30 to 4 AM for work) working on the cherry cabinet set of Modula MT's, which really are doing nicely- the whole midrange through top end presentation is just seamless, listening to a few different things like Sting "Fields of Gold" album, Tom Petty "Into the Great Wide Open", they just really nail voices in a nice way, would make a great behind perforated screen center channel- or even under a flat panel.

I appreciate the comment about Lexicon versus the hot rod pioneer- Lexicon unfortunately has a long history of that kind of thing- as long as the business model works, but apparently you don't even get the SE version of the Oppo when you get the Lexicon badge? Of course, what the Oppo was really designed for is as an HDMI source. I could use one with my CRT only because I have a couple of nice little boxes that technically are not quite legal, as they have full HDCP support for HDMI input and decode to RGBHV to drive a CRT front projector on the output (yeah, I'm pretty old school in my main system, though have a Panasonic flat panel in the bedroom).

So, there will be a "battle of the titans" to prove this out, though you can hardly call it a fair fight, as I'm running the Pioneer into my Berkeley DAC.





That puts the Marantz SA-11 at a substantial disadvantage, if the down conversion is working correctly, IMO, as I've yet to find an SACD player under $10K that can match the Berkeley on CD, for example. The fundamental "DAC quality", whatever the reasons- I/V conversion, digital filters, output stage, etc, just doesn't seem to be in that league. Certainly SACD sounds better than CD on those players, but with a DAC that allows well mastered CDs to rival my SACD player, I'm hoping for good things, no, great things with 24/176 LPCM playback.

The "test" of tests will be the James Taylor Hourglass SACD on the Modula MT MkII; that's one of the cuts I demo'd in 2005; the mastering on the SACD is far better than the available CD version, which sounds like it was made from a 2nd or 3rd generation tape- no resolution in comparison in the midrange (choral voices on "Gaia". That will be another good test of the Pioneer, too! So far, I'm very pleased with how the Pioneer is working out- the goal is to be able to capture the music on my DAW from SPDIF and use with the music server; then, even the clock stability of the custom module becomes a non-issue as it is the playback system and Antelope DA reclocker that will dominate.

[5th element]

How's your Finnish, John? My Finnish is pretty rusty... I have a few Swedish friends

Funny you should mention this, I was talking to my Swedish mate about Finnish a couple of days ago.

To my surprise he said that Finnish has very little in common with Swedish. Unlike Danish with which Swedish and it have common roots.

He said that Finnish shares roots with Hungarian, a language he can speak a little of as he grew up in Hungary or rather what was Romania and moved to Sweden when he was young.

[Jonasz]

Yep, we swedes don't understand a word of finnish, but swedish, danish, norwegian and icelandic are basically the same language or at least very closely related. I can go to Copenhagen or Oslo and make myself understood in swedish and vice versa. Iceland would be more of a challenge I think... :B

[ergo]

I'm Estonian and Estonian language is close to Finnish, whereas neither is similar to Swedish, Russian, Latvian etc that are the other surrounding countries.

Anyhow - I have the HiFiTalo waveguides and have tried those with Seas 27TBFC (which they are designed for), T29CF001 and Vifa XT25. All in all the shape of the throat seems not as optimal as with modified MCM for example. The on axis and 5deg off axis curves tend to have quite strong irregularities around 5..12kHz which I could not get rid of. Moving more into off axis it gets smoother. Still in end I would guess it is not worth to hunt them down as based on measurements the MCM solutions looks better behaved.

(I do have two of these WG-s unused and two attached to XT25 tweeters (with which they are most smooth on axis also) - so could consider selling these if anyone feels compelled to try them out. Better yet - I would be very willing to trade pair of these for MCM ones as latter are difficult for me to order to Estonia.)

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for the comments and feedback- it may be that we're in a better situation that we realize with the MCM parts.

PM me if you want to get some MCM's- I imagine the shipping and customs are the biggest problems... been getting some stuff lately from the Czech republic.

[JonMarsh]

Well, spinning a variety of disks is interesting- midrange balance and transparency is working out fine, in my home office nook way off to the side, the midrange balance and general timber sound a lot like the NeoD CC, which is a good thing... but the kicker is that they sound as if you're within 30 degrees of front and center of the NeoD's, but I'm more than 60 degrees off to the side. The amount of stuff above 12 kHz while at 45 degrees is significantly different than with the D26NC55. These would be really fun with a small sub, or in the TMM version- they're pretty nice right now, maybe just a little lighter below 60 Hz than I'd prefer, but for a condo, that's not a bad thing. That D2608/9130 is very nice setup this way.

This has got me jazzed to test the C25N-6-13 on the waveguide with the C173N-T6-90 for the Modula Xtreme- I have a test front panel routed for the 0.5 cu ft enclosure and ready to go. IF I can get a similar seamless midrange performance, I think we might have an interesting head unit to mate up with a pair of SS W26 on each side! (it does say Xtreme, after all...)

[JonMarsh]

Yep, we swedes don't understand a word of finnish, but swedish, danish, norwegian and icelandic are basically the same language or at least very closely related. I can go to Copenhagen or Oslo and make myself understood in swedish and vice versa. Iceland would be more of a challenge I think... :B

Hey- what the heck- give it a try, Jonas!!

[Jonasz]

Maybe one day I will!

[JonMarsh]

First deliverable pair finished; should have documentation done in a week or so- will be busy this weekend with other things.



They're chunky little monkey's for the size; there's clearly some "stuff" inside!

They are a bit polite on the bottom end; a good vocal, jazz, and chamber music speaker, though Bruce Hornsby sounds pretty good, too, as well as Sting!

Listening to Level 42 "World Machine" at unreasonable volumes (they seem to sound better the louder you play them- up to a point, of course- but the midrange detail retrieval is great on this album). Very clean- they sound like the distortion curve. In case anyone isn't clear about this, I REALLY like the D2608/9130, and the Accuton C13N will have to work real well to displace it in the Modula Xtreme project.

Now, the problem is, do I do the TMM version of the Modula MT MkII next, or the Modula Xtreme? Decisions, decisions! :lol:

Now I just have to talk the new owner into letting me borrow them back on April 24 for the Northern CA DIY!

[---k---]

So how are the Ardents and Nascent coming?

[JonMarsh]

Hey Ryan, that's off topic for this thread!

The whole pile of parts that constitutes the Ardents is in the secondary bedroom, ready to be brought out, Be tweeters installed, and crossover level tweaking and what not under way. It's on the "submitted" list for the Northern CA DIY, so the plan is to do a quick test for the Modula Xtreme head unit to see if that concept is worth pursuing, then order remaining materials and get back to the Ardents while I'm waiting for that other stuff to come in.

So, they will get the most immediate attention. IF the measurements pan out for the midrange head unit, then I think that will be next. I've got most of the parts lying around to do a TMM, so it's really just a matter of spare time- but as we know, that's hardly trivial!

[evilskillit]

Considering how high the cost of the Ardents, Modula Xtreme and Full Nascent will be the Modula Mk2 TMM will probably be the next cheapest project, therefor the most viable for the most people. As I'm working on the original Waveguide TMM it'll also make me the most jealous so that would be my vote. But then again, I've got a friend who is in the market for the best of the best, so I'm sure he would vote for whatever is the most expensive

[JonMarsh]

Well, the Modula Xtreme is sort of replacing the concept of building an Isis Klone; after all the work the Ardents took, and given that I'll have no where near that much spare time this year, coming up with something that used off the shelf cabinets with modifications as much as possible seemed much easier. I can have those prototyped pretty quickly if things turn out OK with the head unit measurements- all the drivers are on hand, as well as the enclosure bits for building the first one.

I've got most of the parts for the TMM's, too, and given how well I like the way these TM's, it's really just a question of finding the time. But with the Ardent's so close, they'll get the big push next, probably starting next weekend.

Given how similar the technologies are, you should really like your TMM's when you get them done. A lot of value relative to the cost. These MT's don't sound like two ways at all- the off axis behavior is very good in ranges where two ways often are week- around 1500-2200 and above 10 kHz.

[evilskillit]

Yeah, I'm just a sucker for new versions. John is an incredible designer and even 5 years later I'm sure the Waveguide TMM is going to be an excellent speaker, which is why I chose to build it. Its just that yours is sort of the new version. I just have to keep razzing you for coming along and providing probably the only thing that could have changed my mind. FWIW given my limited budget I'm pretty better off with John's design since all your drivers are a bit more expensive and you'll probably throw more crossover parts at it. At least the difference is something I can take to the bank

[JonMarsh]

I can certainly understand that.

Funny thing is, listening to these for not that long, as low distortion as both drivers are, and how well they blend, I have to say that if I had the dream to launch a speaker company (which I don't! Incredible amount of work and risk!) these would be the kind of speaker I'd want as a product- very high value in terms of bang for the buck, and something that just sucks me into listening them- integration is such that things two ways often don't do so well, like female voice, slide acoustic guitar, some parts of the piano register, are just really fine- considering the principles and similar crossover concept, I expect you'll get something pretty similar with John's design. BTW, are you doing the perfectionist version of the crossover? I would recommend that...

Let's see, just finished Allison Krause and "Forget about it" album, spinning some Jonatha Brooke from her album as 1/2 of the duo Story, "Grace in Gravity". Gotta take a copy of this up to Sacramento tomorrow, as good as this sounds- (female voice, acoustic guitar, standup bass).

[evilskillit]

Just got back upstairs from making more birch plywood dust on my WG TMMs. Yeah I'm making the perfectionist crossover. I figured it would be worth it to go straight to that, the cost isn't that much higher and it'll save me labor and nagging doubt in the long run, which is worth a lot.

I'm going to try to take them to Iowa DIY this year, assuming there aren't so many new designs that nobody wants to hear an old one. Now somebody needs to hurry up and build a pair of your Modulas and bring them so I can see and hear em

[Mark K]

First deliverable pair finished; should have documentation done in a week or so- will be busy this weekend with other things.



They're chunky little monkey's for the size; there's clearly some "stuff" inside!

They are a bit polite on the bottom end; a good vocal, jazz, and chamber music speaker, though Bruce Hornsby sounds pretty good, too, as well as Sting!

Listening to Level 42 "World Machine" at unreasonable volumes (they seem to sound better the louder you play them- up to a point, of course- but the midrange detail retrieval is great on this album). Very clean- they sound like the distortion curve. In case anyone isn't clear about this, I REALLY like the D2608/9130, and the Accuton C13N will have to work real well to displace it in the Modula Xtreme project.

Now, the problem is, do I do the TMM version of the Modula MT MkII next, or the Modula Xtreme? Decisions, decisions! :lol:

Now I just have to talk the new owner into letting me borrow them back on April 24 for the Northern CA DIY!

boy, doesn't that looks similar. Except the oversized waveguide...which looks really, really big!!

I think this will sound very similar. The integration is very, very good. I thought mine were modest in the bass department, but most folks at the diy didn't think it was a problem. They do need to be cranked a little, I mean, for a two way. Looking forward to your write up and hearing them at the upcoming diy!

[Bear]

First deliverable pair finished; should have documentation done in a week or so- will be busy this weekend with other things.

Congratulations, Jon! I'm sure that you're glad to have that off your plate.

[HYPERTUNE]

Well, there must really be something special with these waveguide assisted 2 ways.

4 highly respected diy designers (probably more no doubt) seem to rate their WG designs as amongst their favourites. All are reasonably priced too.

I'm sure it will come in time, but I'd be very interested to hear a comparison between a TMM version of the markII's and the ardents.

So, my vote goes with Modula MkII TMM as the next project. (in conjunction with completion of the ardents of course) 8)

If a D2608 version of the ardents eventuates, (has been mentioned from memory?) it might be a nice upgrade (?) path to go to from a pair of MKII TMM's.

[JonMarsh]

Well, there must really be something special with these waveguide assisted 2 ways.

4 highly respected diy designers (probably more no doubt) seem to rate their WG designs as amongst their favourites. All are reasonably priced too.

I'm sure it will come in time, but I'd be very interested to hear a comparison between a TMM version of the markII's and the ardents.

So, my vote goes with Modula MkII TMM as the next project. (in conjunction with completion of the ardents of course) 8)

If a D2608 version of the ardents eventuates, (has been mentioned from memory?) it might be a nice upgrade (?) path to go to from a pair of MKII TMM's.

A lot of your thoughts and musings parallel my own- I believe right now that the TMM version of this project would be, performance wise, a "poor man's Ardents" in many respects, and in fact comparing those two is on my mind- which is why I'm glad I have the enclosures and crossover parts and drivers to build the TMM's already on hand! I don't think there's any automatic slam dunk for the Ardents-

What I can say, and what listeners noted in Denver last October, was that the Ardents had a remarkably articulate and powerful bottom end, and I don't think having two of the TMM configuration woofers in parallel is going to do the same thing- so there's clearly some cabinet configuration stuff going on. I'd expect the Ardents to have a bit more ease at high playback levels with a separate driver covering the 300Hz to 3 kHz area from the bass. But these sound very integrated and and at ease playing pretty loud with some variety of pop/rock and folk rock- like Sting, Level 42, Jonatha Brooke/Story and definitely had a very good presentation in some critical areas. Sooo, that will be an interesting comparison.

And for testing a budget Ardent, I'm also going to look at the new SS Discovery midrange cone units, 8 ohm and four ohm (I have the 4 ohm on hand), as well as testing the D2608/9130. For me, this is a conflicted situation, as I'm really leaning towards putting the crossovers in the box on this set, but keeping them outside would allow me to swap out drivers.

And just to make things really weird, I've pondered doing a straight side wall Ardent at the top with a waveguide tweeter crossed over to the midrange. Ugly without a grille cloth, I think, but if the Modula Xtreme works out that way, I'd try it for simpler construction version with high performance.

Many ideas, not enough time. Almost makes me wish I was ten years older and retired so I had lots of time to spend on this!

[JonMarsh]

boy, doesn't that looks similar. Except the oversized waveguide...which looks really, really big!!

I think this will sound very similar. The integration is very, very good. I thought mine were modest in the bass department, but most folks at the diy didn't think it was a problem. They do need to be cranked a little, I mean, for a two way. Looking forward to your write up and hearing them at the upcoming diy!

What's that old song, Mark, twin sons of different mothers? Fraternal twins, anyway. My first ones were going to be Maple, but Cheryl decided she wanted cherry.

I expect either of these would be a very strong contender for best in budget class for any of the more conventional DIY meets. These are competitive with many good three ways as far as how the power response works and the clarity and integration for fundamentals of voice all the way up to 15 kHz off axis (speaking at least for what I've seen measured on yours, and measured and heard on mine) . Stand up bass and vocals on Jonatha Brooke/Story "Grace in Gravity" are just VERY nicely handled, very good presentation and integration; slide guitar on Allison Krause or Rory Block ditto- that's something hard to get right except on top of the line headphones. I don't think it hurts that the way the crossover worked out, there's just two parts in the direct series path, a resistor and a cap (I cheated; Clarity ESA).

The TMM and most likely the Modula Xtreme will follow in these footsteps. It will be interesting to see what subjective differences there are between the DXT tweeter (did you do DLR mods?) and the waveguide+SS.

[---k---]

It is just a shame that there aren't any ready-made waveguides for standard tweeters.

[Face]

It is just a shame that there aren't any ready-made waveguides for standard tweeters.

Calling Zaph Audio, calling Zaph Audio.

[evilskillit]

Yeah, having an easy way to interface a tweeter with a WG would be nice. For some reason I'm really not a big fan of just using a piece of lumber to "strap" it to the wg from the back of the baffle. Homebrew made a really great little harness where the tweeter is actually attached to the WG so it can be removed from the baffle all as one assembly.

As seen here.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30373

However that is still a bit cumbersome. I was kind of wondering if I just filled the back of the waveguide with fiberglass resin or something if I could just put screws through the back of the tweeter face plate and into that stuff if it would hold it. Between the cost of the waveguides, the other materials and my time tho I don't think I can afford to experiment with different options, I'll have to try a known formula. But it would be interesting for someone to try something different, like my "fill the back of the WG with something and screw into it" and see how that works.

[jkrutke]

Calling Zaph Audio, calling Zaph Audio.

It's probably not a surprise that I've looked into it, however I've come to the conclusion that it's not financially feasible to bring one to market. With injection molding I'd have to sell 2000 of them to recover the initial tooling cost. (not happening) Costs are too high per unit for individual machined. Without some massive economies of scale, forget it. So, keep hacking up your MCM waveguides. (which I think are made by Pyle)

Let me ask you guys this: how much would you be willing to pay for a machined aluminum waveguide of a profile and size similar to the MCM? Assume it would come ready to use, pre-tapped for bolting the tweeters to the back with no modifications required.

[Face]

$50-75.

[Dennis H]

Seems to me it wouldn't be that hard to mount a piece of wood on the back of a waveguide so you could screw the driver to it from the back. You'd have to keep the tweeter's faceplate though. Done right, it would also ease cutting the throat off to the right length with only hand tools. Taking this pic of the Dayton 12" as an example:

• Figure out what you want the finished length to be and make a mark.
• Cut it off with a hacksaw, leaving it a bit long.
• Make a plywood or MDF mounting plate with a big hole in the middle so it will slip on from the back. If necessary, chamfer the hole so it will slip on far enough.
• Glue the plate on with epoxy so the backside is even with your mark.
• Use a coarse sanding block to flush the plastic with the wood.
• Screw the driver on from the back.

[evilskillit]

Now is that each or per pair? That seems pretty reasonable but $100-$150 per pair of speakers for waveguides could be pretty cost prohibitive for poor guys like me. Granted I had to buy 4 MCM guides in order to make sure I ended up with 2 that I could use (I biffed two) thats still less than $60 for the pair after you figure shipping.

$50-75.

[cjd]

If you go aluminum, you might be able to do spun aluminum for a (relatively speaking) reasonable cost - will be thinner gauge, but you can easily epoxy wood ribs, add damping, and end up with something easy to mount (and it could be done by the end-user, not the manufacturer). Also, the thinner gauge might make it easier to meet up RIGHT at the inner faceplate edge on various tweeters...

C

[Deward Hastings]

If one can settle for round there are a lot of people set up to turn wooden bowls who could just as easily turn waveguides . . . all they'd need is a pattern to work to.

[spadez]

JonMarsh - a TMM would be awesome, its just what I've been looking for! I found Mark K website with his TM's, which look fantastic, but I was trying to find a TMM version. If you ever make them and release the plans I would love to build a pair.

If you did build this, would it help fix the lower end, as I saw you posted that the lower end was a bit "light" on this version?

Also, how would the impedance be affected by making it a TMM? Currently my 607 Onkyo amp will struggle if things are more in the 4Ohm realm than the 6-8 Ohm range

Edit: My first post!