Darth Modula MX Monitor

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  • Evil Twin
    Super Senior Member
    • Nov 2004
    • 1531

    #46
    Originally posted by Scottg
    Multiple listeners (..maybe HT)?
    That is not out of the realm of possibilities, but that is not the primary intent- as the Force has awakened, I find I have little time for the pleasures of movies at home...

    This particular project has in mind two complexity levels, but now ideas for the smaller one have come to dominate. In one discussion, it was even referred to as an "Arvo Pärt Pro".

    However, it is not principally derived from the Arvo Pärt experiments, but draws on the idea of reducing room interaction above the Schroedinger frequency-

    The question has been posed, would it not be interesting to utilize some of the best concepts of the Dutch & Dutch 8C, but resolve some of the performance issues? (upper bass/low midrange distortion) and, perhaps, shall we say, extend the envelope overall?

    And get rid of the dependency on DSP and the problems they are having with software synchronization between two speakers... Then, too, Why, after all, would I want to spend $6K on a pair of loudspeakers for which I cannot use my very carefully selected DACs? Or my very low distortion amplifiers? Ones which they will not be able to match in a multi-way DSP based speaker.

    But the intriguing concept is the blended use of boundary loaded low bass, a cardioid woofer/low midrange setup, and controlled directivity upper midrange/presence and treble.

    This may have true merit, especially for those who cannot setup large listening rooms and use a Cardas style placement strategy. Yes, Steve Manning, I'm talking about you...
    DFAL
    Dark Force Acoustic Labs

    A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

    Comment

    • Evil Twin
      Super Senior Member
      • Nov 2004
      • 1531

      #47
      Originally posted by SoundOfNothing
      ^ good points and thorough explanation. Thanks. I have a pair of woofers with an XBL motor but never got around to testing them (sitting in storage the last 8 years), they were all the rage a few years back.
      Some might say a fad, but there are times a sound technology is developed but lacks the commercial critical mass to exploit it adequately in the market place. And each licensee of the technology may not have equal quality of implementation or commercial development.

      For those interested in the basic details about the tradeoffs between different fundamental loudspeaker driver motor approaches, I recommend "XBL Primer" written by Dan Wiggins and published by Acoustic Development International in 2008. It is easily found online through one of your local primitive search engines...
      DFAL
      Dark Force Acoustic Labs

      A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

      Comment

      • Scottg
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2006
        • 335

        #48
        Originally posted by Evil Twin
        ..draws on the idea of reducing room interaction above the Schroedinger frequency-
        The absolute best way to achieve this is near-field dipole: basically two (L & R) "somewhat taller *side-tables" near your listening chair, perhaps best done with a compressed array and analog-in DSP (miniDSP, though not really for eq. given the way the bass response fill's out near-field, but rather for phase/time integration). You can even improve on traditional stereo bass with rotating the bass null from the dipole to the point where you get some effective head-shading/pressure loss with the far ear (ie. higher spl from the L dipole to the L ear and lower output to the R ear and vice versa).

        Non-linear distortion is often substantially reduced versus any other format (..and much lower excursion).


        *another way to do this is a combined (physically, not electrically), L & R channels just behind the listener (and again raised), in fact it's often more aesthetically pleasing to do it this way because typical tables behind chair's/couches have table heights that are higher than side-tables. (..problematic though if you sit in a recliner).

        Comment

        • Evil Twin
          Super Senior Member
          • Nov 2004
          • 1531

          #49
          It pains me to follow up with a brief announcement that this most promising project has been “put in carbonite” for the near future, and the component materials recently transferred to secure storage in the outer rim.

          It has been postponed, not cancelled, because Steve Manning needs my “motivational” assistance and technical guidance for follow up on a project that most do do not know I was closely involved in. (The first Generation Ardent- the design documents tell the story of who actually did the heavy lifting... )

          In fact, the cargo run to the outer rim completed yesterday included bring back tools and components to assist Mr. Manning in this endeavor- more about this later.

          In the meantime, for those that are curious, here are some clues....


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          Last edited by Evil Twin; 27 October 2019, 10:03 Sunday.
          DFAL
          Dark Force Acoustic Labs

          A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

          Comment

          • Evil Twin
            Super Senior Member
            • Nov 2004
            • 1531

            #50
            For those seeking more information...

            This image recovered from Rebel spies is more revealing than we care for...


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            DFAL
            Dark Force Acoustic Labs

            A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

            Comment

            • Zvu
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2013
              • 434

              #51
              THIS tweeters on THIS waveguide = very good combination. Usually i wouldn't recommend something from buyout but now with 3D printers it doesn't have to be available all the time. We just need one piece to replicate. Here are my measurements on axis and 45 degrees off axis 1m distance.




              Distortion, even bellow 1000Hz, is ridiculously low. I've opened it the second i received it. It has very nice titanium dome coated with some transparent stuff, with ventilated polyimide surround. Much nicer than the one in B&C DE250-8 i had before.
              Last edited by Zvu; 19 December 2019, 19:46 Thursday.
              Tesla; George Carlin;

              Comment

              • ergo
                Senior Member
                • Mar 2005
                • 675

                #52
                Does look to perform very well indeed. Now we need a volunteer on US side to buy one extra WG and cut it two ways on bandsaw and scan the profiles

                Comment

                • Evil Twin
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Nov 2004
                  • 1531

                  #53
                  Originally posted by Zvu
                  THIS tweeters on THIS waveguide = very good combination. Usually i wouldn't recommend something from buyout but now with 3D printers id doesn't have to be available all the time. We just need one piece to replicate. Here are my measurements on axis and 45 degrees off axis 1m distance.




                  Distortion, even bellow 1000Hz, is ridiculously low. I've opened it the second i received it. It has very nice titanium dome coated with some transparent stuff, with ventilated polyimide surround. Much nicer than the one in B&C DE250-8 i had before.
                  Were I a suspicious Sith Lord, I would suspect you have Rebel spies monitoring my shipments and emails with Steve... That tweeter was purchased earlier this year, but due to a change in Steve’s focus (he can convincingly channel Emperor Palpatine at times) the driver and associated waveguides were placed in carbonate storage in a secret location in the outer rim early last November.

                  This compression driver will receive close evaluations when time is available. When that will be is farther in the future than I prefer...

                  Now, wait a minute.... there is no such thing as a Sith Lord that is not suspicious...

                  I find these events most disturbing...
                  DFAL
                  Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                  A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                  Comment

                  • Zvu
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2013
                    • 434

                    #54
                    Well, you may imagine how great disturbance in the Force was created by you acquiring those particular pieces of technology. There was a sudden shift of energy to the Dark side and only thing i could do is to get into possesion of the same technology to bring some balance to the Force. My Croatian friend was in your part of the Galaxy and asked me what can he do to help the resistance. He knew what i need before i said it - the Force is strong with him. And through the fire of Battle of Yavin and over asteroid fields his ship slided toward me. Lord Vader always had good taste for technology, but these pieces are exceptional.

                    @Ergo: My friend from Croatia bought one piece more just to hack and reverse engineer it. He wants to make it larger and with lipover. I wanted to do just lipover on these. I'll be playing with some paper and measuring gear to see what can be achieved regarding directivity and frequency response. Maybe i can talk him into sending you WG, when he finishes playing with it, if you are interested ?
                    Tesla; George Carlin;

                    Comment

                    • Efalegalo
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2007
                      • 139

                      #55
                      Zvu,

                      I believe I tried this combo before but wasn't about to get the smooth response you posted. I ended up returning the DFM-2535R00-08.

                      Mid you, I the waveguide was not mounted in any baffle - so I'm not sure if that was contributing to it.

                      Check out my post at diyaudio: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...based-2-a.html

                      Comment

                      • Zvu
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2013
                        • 434

                        #56
                        I see.

                        My measurements are also done without baffle, since i'll be using it that way. My best guess is that something could be wrong with your compression drivers or with mounting. Not too much, but some attention is needed when mounting the drivers to the waveguide to align the compression driver opening to waveguide throat.

                        Here's what my buddy measured, same combination of waveguide and compression driver:





                        Tesla; George Carlin;

                        Comment

                        • Scottg
                          Senior Member
                          • Nov 2006
                          • 335

                          #57
                          Originally posted by Zvu
                          ..on THIS waveguide..
                          copy of the QSC PL-000446-GP?

                          Brandon's (augerpro) measurements:

                          Access Google Sites with a personal Google account or Google Workspace account (for business use).

                          Comment

                          • Zvu
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2013
                            • 434

                            #58
                            Yes. Obviously not an exact copy because it measures slightly different, better in my opinion. It could be because of the driver though.
                            Tesla; George Carlin;

                            Comment

                            • ergo
                              Senior Member
                              • Mar 2005
                              • 675

                              #59
                              Originally posted by Zvu
                              @Ergo: My friend from Croatia bought one piece more just to hack and reverse engineer it. He wants to make it larger and with lipover. I wanted to do just lipover on these. I'll be playing with some paper and measuring gear to see what can be achieved regarding directivity and frequency response. Maybe i can talk him into sending you WG, when he finishes playing with it, if you are interested ?
                              I would be interested and willing to pay the price of the unit and shipping of course.

                              Just checked what would be the shipping cost to order direct from PE to Estonia - It's 110USD for shipping ... even only for 2 waveguides. So that is a no go for sure.

                              Comment

                              • Zvu
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2013
                                • 434

                                #60
                                I'll check with him and get back to you.
                                Tesla; George Carlin;

                                Comment

                                • Zvu
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Oct 2013
                                  • 434

                                  #61
                                  I've played a bit with DFM2535/B52-WG and JBL 2202H. Sim for 2.5m listening distance. Slight loss of directivity is noticeable at low part of the tweeter response - a product of waveguide i guess since it is not visible in Vance Dickason's measurements. Not too shabby for an hour of play time with just on axis and 40 deg off axis responses. These really must be measured as Kimmo suggests in VituixCad manual to be able to avoid power response dip at 1600Hz. Everything beyond that is a guesstimation.




                                  Measured mounted in a 100cm x 55cm cabinet with JBL 2241H bass mounted bellow (biamped and active crossover for bass).
                                  Tesla; George Carlin;

                                  Comment

                                  • Evil Twin
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Nov 2004
                                    • 1531

                                    #62
                                    Now the outer rim workshop is in the process of being setup, and as I unpack component resources packed away so long ago I am again evaluating both what directions to pursue are desirable, and in some cases, just what are possible, given the flux in supply chain behavior over the last two years.

                                    The very promising and highly reviewed (on AudioXpress) DE990TN driver is apparently no longer available. This part struck a very desirable balance of performance versus cost.

                                    Of course, as we are often wont to say, "there is another...."

                                    It merely requires a higher level of financial commitment, but the rewards seem potentially quite clear...










                                    For any who, like myself, have measured impedance curves of compression drivers and developed compensating zobel networks, you understand how remarkable the factory published impedance curve is, if real. That, of course, remains to be seen.

                                    While the DE900 + ME90 configuration proved intriguing for a lower cost solution with a solidly designed constant directivity horn, this continuation of the effort will focus on the Eighteen Sound components, including the XT1464 (on hand), the XT20186 (on hand), the NSD1095 (on hand) and the NSD1480 (status uncertain pending inventory review). Given earlier positive results with the WO24, 4 of the 4 ohm versions are in transit from a European vendor- a follow up order for the 8 ohm version may be launched in June.

                                    Extensive modeling has been conducted with a number of passive radiator configurations and enclosure volumes (40L & 55L)-

                                    One of my favorites is this one-

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                                    Of course, while the 8 ohm version would lend itself to an MTM construction, it is most questionable whether droid coffins are desirable or tolerated in these challenging times.


                                    After conducting a new review of some options with horns and waveguides, I still find myself drawn to the parameters of the Eighteen Sound parts-

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                                    My intuition is that the very consistent beam width and directivity with regards to frequency over a wide range will be a most agreeable characteristic...

                                    This is a quality I find sadly lacking in most competing products, even ones that superficially appear similar, such as the Faital LTH142.


                                    For the XT1086, one possibility I envision is pairing it with the SB MWP19, who's general performance has been verified in the Calliope design. Perhaps an MTM should even be considered... but along those lines, the PTT65X08NAA08 should merit serious consideration also.

                                    Unfortunately, the droid maintaining my inventory records was "rendered inoperable" in a minor incident during the relocation process, so completing an accurate inventory will be necessary in the near future before commencing research operations with the materials retrieved from storage...
                                    DFAL
                                    Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                    A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                    Comment

                                    • technodanvan
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Nov 2009
                                      • 998

                                      #63
                                      I think we need a master thread showing all of the various projects being worked on by the Dark Lord, Jon, and any other persona I have forgotten about. Could be kept updated with status and links to relevant threads.

                                      I can do this if you like Jon, though I’m quite certain you already have this done on your end in some fashion.

                                      The curve that Satori makes is quite appealing.
                                      - Danny

                                      Comment

                                      • Steve Manning
                                        Moderator
                                        • Dec 2006
                                        • 1879

                                        #64
                                        Originally posted by technodanvan
                                        I think we need a master thread showing all of the various projects being worked on by the Dark Lord, Jon, and any other persona I have forgotten about. Could be kept updated with status and links to relevant threads.

                                        I can do this if you like Jon, though I’m quite certain you already have this done on your end in some fashion.

                                        The curve that Satori makes is quite appealing.
                                        Careful Danny, you have no idea the magnitude of that project list. 8O
                                        Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                        WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                        Comment

                                        • Evil Twin
                                          Super Senior Member
                                          • Nov 2004
                                          • 1531

                                          #65
                                          This is an unusual situation in that the logistical upheaval due to relocation efforts have required that projects initiated in the 2019 time frame to "attack" different application approaches have been put on hold as they were packed up and sent to storage in the outer rim.

                                          Now, these project materials are being unpacked and the original design studies reviewed, and evaluated in the light of current day expectations as well as having additional experiences to draw upon. The origins lie in the quest for improvements and greater capabilities in a number of areas:
                                          • further reduced distortion in the critical upper passband, and a desire to explore the possibility of achieving high levels of performance for a single upper range driver and waveguide/horn combination in the approximate range of 1 to 1.5kHz and up. Kimmo used to have a variety of his projects posted on a separate section of his site, and a couple of data items were "intriguing"- I captured this data, but Kimmo has long since deleted it from his site. In particular, the basic response measurements of the NSD1095 driver on the XT1086 wave-guide were interesting... most interesting!
                                          • Investigating better functional control of dispersion in order to improve the ratio of direct to reflected sound in average untreated environments
                                          • Investigating the possibility of professional drivers which might be suited to cardioid woofer configuration, also to alter the direct to reflected sound room interaction
                                          • while seeking a base system design with a balance of LF extension and sensitivity that has more focus on sensitivity, and satisfying with electronics of more "nominal" power level
                                          • Revisiting a low frequency "subwoofer" concept I experimented with 35-45 years ago, which to describe simply, uses intelligent tuning of bandpass enclosure design and selected professional grade woofers to achieve a smooth, well controlled response- and this using bandpass technology which is very popular with car audio in the lat 25 years to create compact high power bass boom boxes, but employing far different design assumptions and implementation.




                                          This thread was originally posted to highlight a couple of these directions of inquiry I was engaged in three years ago...

                                          After all, others might see similar value, and proceed and share information on their own. Regrettably, that has not come to pass...
                                          • The two items introduced in this thread was the search for a 1.4" throat driver and waveguide/horn combination yielding the desired characteristics, preferably at an affordable price...
                                          • The search for a suitable 15" professional woofer, possibly a 12" version also, for development of a bandpass woofer similar to those built in the 70's and early 80's, and developing a design implementation that achieves the end targets.
                                          • An alternative LF approach for operation just in the room pressure zone for a multi-way system, using woofers with an enhanced linear motor design, such as the CSS SDX10.



                                          the full list of "Design Studies" under this effort:
                                          • An in-house waveguide developed with Steve manning, that could be constructed using CNC, for the RS28a, to explore the outer limits of it's performance capabilities and offer a relatively low cost wide band upper range solution
                                          • A detailed follow on investigation of the combination of NSD0195 driver and XT1086 constant directivity waveguide from Eighteen Sound, with detailed characterization of it's actual capabilities and realizing a system design with a mating woofer(s), possibly parts like the MW19P series from SB Acoustics. The Calliope design highlighted it's capabilities in a more conventional approach. This would include a search and testing of alternative compression drivers that might deliver similar performance at a lower cost.
                                          • A detailed follow on investigation of the combination of NSD1480 driver and XT1464 constant directivity waveguide from Eighteen Sound, with detailed characterization of it's actual capabilities and realizing a system design with a mating woofer(s), possibly parts like the WO24P series from SB Acoustics. This part was selected based on published information, and initial measurements did not disappoint, as the 9.5" driver has an unusual combination of characteristics, including a very low inductance motor design.
                                          • Cardioid woofer development, considering the creation of a larger system incorporating some of the key principles of the Dutch & Dutch 8C, without the handicaps of an artificially small enclosure size and heavy internal DSP processing and integrated DAC's and amplifiers- several 10" and 12" professional drivers under consideration.
                                          • Compact bandpass woofer sytem, considering both the 15BG100, 15NW100, and the 15SW100 drivers. This is mentioned in passing early in this thread; what hasn't been discussed is the results of the first test enclosure, slightly undersized, which nonetheless produced encouraging results and validated the VituixCAD design synthesis presented in the thread. A key parameter for this approach is an appallingly low Qts, and for that reason the 15BG100 was a primary focus of evaluation.


                                          Though the discontinuation of the RS28a has seemingly precluded following up on that promising concept, given that we have a small stock of NOS RS28a in boxes, we might pursue this as a limited production item- perhaps, as the "Darth Modula VT", for vintage tweeter. Mated with two of the MW19P-8, this might be quite interesting... even more so mated with two of the 8 ohm aluminum Purify drivers...
                                          DFAL
                                          Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                          A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                          Comment

                                          • Scareurpasenger
                                            Member
                                            • Jan 2017
                                            • 66

                                            #66
                                            Originally posted by Evil Twin
                                            Though the discontinuation of the RS28a has seemingly precluded following up on that promising concept, given that we have a small stock of NOS RS28a in boxes, we might pursue this as a limited production item- perhaps, as the "Darth Modula VT", for vintage tweeter. Mated with two of the MW19P-8, this might be quite interesting... even more so mated with two of the 8 ohm aluminum Purify drivers...
                                            Sounds like it was a good plan to purchase a few of these just in case I will be watching.

                                            Comment

                                            • technodanvan
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Nov 2009
                                              • 998

                                              #67
                                              Originally posted by Steve Manning
                                              Careful Danny, you have no idea the magnitude of that project list. 8O
                                              I know! Which is kinda why I want to do it. :evil:
                                              - Danny

                                              Comment

                                              • Evil Twin
                                                Super Senior Member
                                                • Nov 2004
                                                • 1531

                                                #68
                                                Perhaps as regards other projects, I should mention that the Kurosawa Dai Katanna will be brought out of storage soon, and assembly and final test measurements undertaken, and assembly of purchased parts for crossovers begun.

                                                This might have escaped notice by some...







                                                AS190 test cabinet measurements, NO crossover- yes, baffle step is basically build in to the transfer function.





                                                Modeled low frequency transfer function for one LF group- consisting of AS190 and 2x PR223BD02, all in separate chambers from the others.




                                                Developmental crossover concept, Duelund transfer function, with early test data; subject to additional review after capturing data measured in the built cabinets instead of test enclosures.

















                                                Note the carefully photoshopped room reflections apparent in the front panel of the cabinet- the finish process was redone three times before results were satisfactory. But this improved my skills in photoshop considerably, considering I normally never use it.





                                                One forum member commented that I seem to be engaged in a significant number of projects, as if I was an engineering director again... this may seem so, but then I have my droids, and my personal working team of me, myself, and I which I can count on for "motivated" effort!
                                                DFAL
                                                Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                Comment

                                                • rick844
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Jun 2019
                                                  • 232

                                                  #69
                                                  Those enclosures look fantastic. Top notch. Very well done.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • technodanvan
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Nov 2009
                                                    • 998

                                                    #70
                                                    Originally posted by Evil Twin
                                                    I think I will be taking some final design notes from this enclosure. It was already in the works, but you reminded me a bit earlier than anticipated. All black and edgy, sounds like a match made in Sith heaven.
                                                    - Danny

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Evil Twin
                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                      • Nov 2004
                                                      • 1531

                                                      #71
                                                      Originally posted by rick844
                                                      Those enclosures look fantastic. Top notch. Very well done.
                                                      They were a lengthy labor of love or lust... contracted from maple ply piano sounding board. Very stiff and inert material.
                                                      DFAL
                                                      Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                      A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                      Comment

                                                      • rick844
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Jun 2019
                                                        • 232

                                                        #72
                                                        I look forward to seeing the final product.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • vineethkumar01
                                                          Junior Member
                                                          • Aug 2020
                                                          • 11

                                                          #73
                                                          I personally am really excited about this project.. Eagerly looking forward to more developments
                                                          I don't have much experience building speakers but I had recently built a mock up/prototype using 1inch thick XPS foam for a 50ish liter box for the Satori WO24P-8 drivers and used an SB audience Rosso 65 CDN-T 1.4inch compression driver on a Faital pro LTH 142 horn.
                                                          Here are some pics of the prototype, the horizontal polar responses of the Satori, the CD on horn, and the DSP crossover I did quickly and heard
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                                                          Even with this level of immature crososver design I did, it sounded very nice to my ears..
                                                          Looking forward to learn more from this project.

                                                          Thanks
                                                          Vineeth

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Evil Twin
                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                            • Nov 2004
                                                            • 1531

                                                            #74
                                                            As you might guess, my first suggestion to you would be to swap the LTH142 (which I have tested- see above) for an Eighteen Sound XT1464.

                                                            These are available at LousdpeakersPlus for about $85 plus shipping.

                                                            Compare your directivity maps with their specification, which is born out in other 3rd party measurements.


                                                            DFAL
                                                            Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                            A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                            Comment

                                                            • vineethkumar01
                                                              Junior Member
                                                              • Aug 2020
                                                              • 11

                                                              #75
                                                              Thank you.
                                                              I just experimented with this faital of the horn since it was readily available and XT1464 was not available with any dealers in my country.
                                                              I will try and get the 18 sound ones later.
                                                              Will eagerly follow this project to study how the concept develops.

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Evil Twin
                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                • Nov 2004
                                                                • 1531

                                                                #76
                                                                I am looking forward to further development on this project also- it is a linchpin for some more advanced concepts to be explored.

                                                                A new batch of WO24P-4 have just arrived from my Estonian vendor...


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                                                                DFAL
                                                                Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                                Comment

                                                                • JonMarsh
                                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                                  • 15261

                                                                  #77
                                                                  For those on a budget, I just noticed at PE that the Peerless DFM-2544R00-08 is "sort of" available, but on backorder- expected back in stock in late June.

                                                                  Peerless by Tymphany DFM-2544R00-08 1" Compression DFM Driver 8 OhmThe Peerless DFM-2544R00-08 1" exit compression driver with 1-3/4" diaphragm is for use in high fidelity professional sound reinforcement systems. Peerless designed the magnet system for high sensitivity while keeping the weight and cost to a minimum. The 3-slot phasing plug and aluminum voice coil give improved HF response with minimal compression. The titanium diaphragm is coated with a light, thin layer of unique damping material that results in a smoother sound, especially when driven hard. All of the materials resist environmental factor of heat, vibration and aging ensuring many years of stable performance.Specifications: • Power handling: 60 watts RMS/120 watts program (with recommended 1,500 Hz, 12 dB/octave crossover) • Fs: 784 • VCdia: 1.75" • Throat diameter: 1" • Impedance: 8 ohms • Frequency response: 1,500-20,000 Hz • SPL: 105.34 dB 2.83V/1m • Dimensions: Overall diameter: 4.5", Depth: 2.375".



                                                                  There's no arguing that it may be a true value leader, and I think ET ought to get a pair of them on backorder, just in case.

                                                                  Test results can be seen here:

                                                                  In this Test Bench, Vance Dickason examines the Peerless by Tymphany DFM-2544R00-08 compression driver, which is part of the brand’s new three model compression driver series. The compression driver features a 1” throat exit diameter, but with a 1.75” titanium diaphragm and the same type of polyimide surround. The DFM-2544R00-08 is driven by a 44.4 mm diameter voice coil wound with aluminum wire on a TIL film non-conducting former. This article was originally published in Voice Coil, March 2018.



                                                                  As tested by Audio Express/VoiceCoil, it looks like this, using a B&C ME20, which is not the optimal performance choice, IMO, but is inexpensive:




                                                                  It should be interesting to see how it pairs with the ME90 or with the Eighteen Sound constant directivity horn. The response to 30 degrees with that horn is fairly good, but measuring beyond the directivity rating of a horn is kind of pointless.
                                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                                  Natalie P
                                                                  M8ta
                                                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                                                  Modula MT XE
                                                                  Modula Xtreme
                                                                  Isiris
                                                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                                                  SMJ
                                                                  Minerva Monitor
                                                                  Calliope
                                                                  Ardent D

                                                                  In Development...
                                                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                  Obi-Wan
                                                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                  Modula PWB
                                                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Scottg
                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                    • Nov 2006
                                                                    • 335

                                                                    #78
                                                                    They seem to have discontinued the more linear (and less expensive) DFM-2535R00-08. :cry:

                                                                    Note: a rather excellent horn was used for the Audio Express test of that driver, and it is NOT what was reported in that driver/horn's test report.

                                                                    This Test Bench examines the first compression driver in the company’s new three model line from Peerless by Tymphany, the DFM-2535R00-08.



                                                                    This is the actual horn (and a bit of a bargain for its bandwidth vs. size w/ reasonably good *off-axis performance):

                                                                    Eminence SST1 is a 90°x 40° 1" constant directivity horn with smooth high-frequency reproduction from 1.0kHz. Constructed of durable ABS plastic, The SST1 works well for small to medium-sized speaker cabinets Specifications SPECIFICATIONS Type Constant Directivity Throat Size 1", 25.4mm Attachment Method Bolt-on Disper




                                                                    I believe I'd mentioned awhile ago on another forum/thread that the more expensive DFM-2544R00-08 (despite being less linear) should have greater clarity than the DFM-2535R00-08 because of the much lower mass of the diaphragm/surround (especially given it's larger surface area), so if you can deal with the linearity issues (both freq. response and Impedance) then you could well have a better subjective result assuming those linearity corrections don't interfere with the driver's clarity.


                                                                    *note: it's not an attempt at a constant directivity design (like the QSC PL-000446-GP and clones of it), but it's also not far off of that while having better lower freq. extension (..which is extremely important with most design integration).
                                                                    Last edited by Scottg; 22 April 2022, 13:10 Friday.

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • Zvu
                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                      • Oct 2013
                                                                      • 434

                                                                      #79
                                                                      I'll be free to post some of my findings regarding Peerless and freestanding ST260 waveguide. Copy/paste from other forum:

                                                                      This evening my friend and i measured Peerless DFM2535R00-08 on Mabat's ST260 waveguide.

                                                                      Measurements are done from 1m distance with calibrated Behringer ECM8000, Steinberg UR12 and gate frequency of 4.4ms so enough to capture trends of this waveguide. What is shown here are measurements 0-90 degrees with ≈7.5 deg increments in between. Since i did not calibrate REW and my mic for loudness, SPL levels shown aren't representative of actual SPL level. Off axis measurements 60 degrees and up are smoothed 1/48 to avoid "hair" at higher frequencies.

                                                                      0-90 degrees



                                                                      0-45 degress



                                                                      45-90 degrees



                                                                      75dB vs 85dB loudness



                                                                      measurement on axis (red) and averaged 0-90 degrees (purple)



                                                                      printed waveguide





                                                                      I must say that i've never seen better and more extended frequency response from a smaller waveguide (26 centimeters in diameter, 8.5 centimeters deep) and a cheaper compression driver.

                                                                      Later on my friend and i measured st260 and Peerless, this time with 13ms gate mounted on top of a cabinet to see if it influences frequency response in any meaningful way. Mic height is the same as waveguide center, right at 3 meters from the floor.




                                                                      This is a passive crossover sim on axis with FaitalPRO 12pr320-8 and DFM2535 in ST260. Red response represents raw tweeter with 13ms gate time.




                                                                      Printing a waveguide costed about 50 euros and was done with 0.2mm nozzle and 20% infill by a small local company. Files for printing can be obtained on the link bellow.



                                                                      As for compression driver, its discontinuation is probably cancelled since it can again be found on their website without being labelled -discontinued-.



                                                                      Something similar happened to TC9FD18-08 a while ago - it was almost discontinued. So, fingers crossed
                                                                      Last edited by Zvu; 22 April 2022, 15:48 Friday.
                                                                      Tesla; George Carlin;

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                                        • 15261

                                                                        #80
                                                                        Yeah, the DFM2535 is not showing up at PE at all. I have a pair on hand purchased from them. Cross fingers that it finds it's way back into the supply chain!

                                                                        Thanks for sharing all the info and measurements- I'm sure many will find it interesting and instructive!
                                                                        the AudioWorx
                                                                        Natalie P
                                                                        M8ta
                                                                        Modula Neo DCC
                                                                        Modula MT XE
                                                                        Modula Xtreme
                                                                        Isiris
                                                                        Wavecor Ardent

                                                                        SMJ
                                                                        Minerva Monitor
                                                                        Calliope
                                                                        Ardent D

                                                                        In Development...
                                                                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                        Obi-Wan
                                                                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                        Modula PWB
                                                                        Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                        Natalie P Ultra
                                                                        Natalie P Supreme
                                                                        Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Zvu
                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                          • Oct 2013
                                                                          • 434

                                                                          #81
                                                                          Highlight for me is Marcel Batik's waveguide designed with his freeware ATH4.


                                                                          Acoustic Horn Design – The Easy Way (Ath tool) This is an associated thread for a waveguide generator called Ath (Advanced Transition Horn), version 4. Ath is a piece of software for designing waveguides and horns. At the same time it makes it possible to easily simulate their acoustic...


                                                                          You can design a waveguide as you see fit. Custom dispersion, custom cutoff, axisymmetric or with different H+V dispersions.

                                                                          Marcel (aka Mabat) designed ST260 waveguide and with such a small waveguide you easily get controlled and constant directivity down to waveguide cavity resonance at 850Hz. I was in awe when i measured it.

                                                                          Download a file, print it anywhere in the world, attach a 40 euro compression driver and you get level of performance i measured. About the driver, a guy from Bavaria contacted Tymphany and, surprisingly, got an answer. There is some chain of supply problem and until it is sorted out, it will be unavailable.
                                                                          Tesla; George Carlin;

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • Scottg
                                                                            Senior Member
                                                                            • Nov 2006
                                                                            • 335

                                                                            #82
                                                                            Side Note:

                                                                            -ever noticed how the *"waist-banding" (non-uniform pressure loss off-axis typically 1-3 kHz) seems absent with larger round-overs for the waveguide/horn's exit?


                                                                            *as seen in the Audio Express web page I linked to.

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • Zvu
                                                                              Senior Member
                                                                              • Oct 2013
                                                                              • 434

                                                                              #83
                                                                              Roundover such as this also widens the dispersion over 10kHz, as Patrick from DIYaudio forum measured. Larger or smaller roundover than 180 degrees becomes detrimental for some reason. What also surprised me is that, no matter how large roundovers are on the cabinet edges and how smooth the transition from waveguide to the cabinet is (think GedLee Summa), freestanding waveguide with this type of roundover simply measure better.
                                                                              Tesla; George Carlin;

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • tktran
                                                                                Senior Member
                                                                                • Jan 2005
                                                                                • 658

                                                                                #84
                                                                                Hello Mali,

                                                                                I'm out of date with pro drivers; anything special about the Faital pro or the 12pr320-8?

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • Zvu
                                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                                  • Oct 2013
                                                                                  • 434

                                                                                  #85
                                                                                  Hi Thanh

                                                                                  FaitalPro 12pr320-8 is special for me for its balance. Put it in 90-100 liter cabinet tuned to 39Hz it'll get down to high thirties and it can be used as a woofer in a three way or a midwoofer in a two way (as i intend to try it), or put it in a compression chamber of 30 liters for Qtc=0.707 and use it as a large format midrange with 18" woofer bellow it. It's nice to know you have options and i love versatility.

                                                                                  Low Le, low Mms, decent Xmax and cone behaviour without extreme breakup gives me the impression of a very good and balanced engineering. https://audioxpress.com/news/faitalp...ght-sound-2017

                                                                                  FaitalPro also introduced the new 10PR320 and 12PR320 woofers, representing an evolution of existing 10” and 12” PR300 models, now using a totally different basket and based on a more flexible magnetic circuit. Designed for low and medium-low frequencies in two-way speakers, targeting especially the MI market (electric bass, jazz guitar, but not only) and general pro audio applications.
                                                                                  According to Flavio Naggi FaitalPro Pro Audio Division Manager,the new woofers “are ideal where 10” and 12" woofers are needed to extend the low frequency response beyond the standard products available to date. The type of sound produced can be defined as "nice & clean”.”

                                                                                  Both models provide a 65mm, 2.5” coil with good power handling, rated for real 300 W and 600 W maximum power (AES). The true novelty for both is the engine, with the neodymium magnet attached to the outside of the basket. Obviously, the electroacoustic parameters change and the 10PR320 demonstrates a lower QTS, a slightly higher Fs and a slightly more “nervous and responsive” character, compared to 12PR320, which provides more "balanced" results, relatively quiet, but still sufficiently "assertive".

                                                                                  Both employ waterproofed cellulose pulp and mixed fiber cone with cone surround in waterproof treated fiber with a three-wave profile in order to obtain the desired tone and maximize the movable element excursion. Both woofers show very high sound pressure levels and great resistance to power.
                                                                                  I mean, finding 12" midwoofers that can extend bellow 40Hz, have lowish Mms and still remain clean up to at least 2kHz is hard. I regret not buying 4 of them since there is 16 ohm version and make some MTM with BMS 4590, JTR Noesis 212 inspired. Year and a half ago i payed mine 100€/piece at TLHP but they now cost 230€/piece, which is too much money for my pay check. Eminence Deltalite II 2512 comes close to 12PR320 but needs larger cabinet, has lower Xmax and dip before breakup at 2kHz is just a wiggle on their DS but it was over 5dB deep when i measured it.

                                                                                  P.S. Mali is not my name It is part of my mail adress Mali Budha which means Little Buddha in Serbo-Croatian - inspired by namesake movie from 1993. Not particularly good movie per se but it brings back some childhood memories and emotions. My actual name is Mladen which translates similar to Young in Anglic
                                                                                  Last edited by Zvu; 23 April 2022, 07:57 Saturday.
                                                                                  Tesla; George Carlin;

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • Evil Twin
                                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                                    • Nov 2004
                                                                                    • 1531

                                                                                    #86
                                                                                    This part is usually available through Faital dealers; Parts Express is showing backorders until the end of May.

                                                                                    This component is intriguing for the reasons you mention, but I also see possible applications in a cardioid mid woofer configuration.
                                                                                    DFAL
                                                                                    Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                                    A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • Zvu
                                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                                      • Oct 2013
                                                                                      • 434

                                                                                      #87
                                                                                      Something like Dutch&Dutch 8C on steroids ?

                                                                                      I think it can be done with freestanding waveguide. That would enable physical acoustic centers alignment and easier implementation of the intended crossover slopes. There is another waveguide available for download - ATH CE360. 36cm in diameter and 9,4cm deep. It controlls directivity even lower than ST260 i've made. This one was measured and made by my friend.

                                                                                      Simulation for CE360 waveguide



                                                                                      Measurements 0-90 of DEF2535R00-08 in CE360



                                                                                      Making and measuring of the waveguide
                                                                                      Last edited by Zvu; 23 April 2022, 13:53 Saturday.
                                                                                      Tesla; George Carlin;

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • Evil Twin
                                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                                        • Nov 2004
                                                                                        • 1531

                                                                                        #88
                                                                                        Originally posted by Zvu
                                                                                        Something like Dutch&Dutch 8C on steroids ?

                                                                                        I think it can be done with freestanding waveguide. That would enable physical acoustic centers alignment and easier implementation of the intended crossover slopes. There is another waveguide available for download - ATH CE360. 36cm in diameter and 9,4cm deep. It controlls directivity even lower than ST260 i've made. This one was measured and made by my friend.

                                                                                        Simulation for CE360 waveguide



                                                                                        Measurements 0-90 of DEF2535R00-08 in CE360



                                                                                        Making and measuring of the waveguide

                                                                                        Yes, very much like the Dutch & Dutch 8C on steroids, and without the DSP and wireless data connection. I have been researching and setting aside components for this concept for several years... I also have in mind a relatively high order asymmetric crossover which is capable of minimum phase behavior with no phase rotation and with fully aligned step response. There are many parameters to consider... like my favorite "LR3" crossover, it requires a specific time offset of the drivers.
                                                                                        DFAL
                                                                                        Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                                        A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

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