Dayton Ardent PE?

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15261

    Dayton Ardent PE?

    Ok, possibly I should have written this up on April 1, but it's not actually a fools joke, but just some musing between Dharmendi and I this morning...

    He was wondering why we didn't consider the RSS210HF for the Ardent (not available back in 2013), so we proceeded to talk further about a budget/high value Ardent approach using them...

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    (which has been under consideration- Ardent DA with DA25TX and SS 12MU at one point) But you know, we can do "better value" than that... after a fashion


    Dhar proposed the Peerless TG9FD-10-04 for the midrange (never let a little thing like Peerless availability get in your way)...


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    Now, I just happen to have a two way line array project on hold (Saint-Saens LA), but a box of these drivers and it's kissing cousin from Peerless are on hand...

    The factory DS for the TG9FD:


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    The kissing cousin as tested by HiFi Compass...



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    Since the DA25TX00-8 is slowly becoming unobtainium, of course I have to come up within something weirder, with a high sweat equity factor, so why not the GRS PT2522 MOD4 version with GRS faceplate and special top secrete rear subenclosure as I'm building for the SMJ-40/Saint-Saëns with RSS210HF on the low end-


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    Now, one thing these driver ideas don't get around very well, is the cost of the three way crossover properly executed- or the effort and expense to build the cabinets.

    But trust me- this sweat equity approach is a LOT more budget friendly than the other Ardent concept system waiting in the wings-

    The Ardent Supreme


    This would be directly derived from the CC supreme, but with a larger cabinet and probably PR's to extract the most performance from the PuriFi PTT8.0X04.


    But if you're fond of those pricey 8" PuriFi woofers, but would like a simpler cabinet concept to build, then just consider the idea for the SMJ-24, a Saint-Saëns planar knock off with the GRS planar mid and tweeter, but just two PuriFi 8" woofers, also in a dual cabinet concept, and with only a slightly smaller LF cabinet- 95L. Compared with the PTT6.5 PuriFi drivers, the 8's are monkey coffin parts. Not really a budget build, though the GRS parts represent pretty good value.

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    the AudioWorx
    Natalie P
    M8ta
    Modula Neo DCC
    Modula MT XE
    Modula Xtreme
    Isiris
    Wavecor Ardent

    SMJ
    Minerva Monitor
    Calliope
    Ardent D

    In Development...
    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
    Obi-Wan
    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
    Modula PWB
    Calliope CC Supreme
    Natalie P Ultra
    Natalie P Supreme
    Janus BP1 Sub


    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
    Just ask Mr. Ohm....
  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15261

    #2
    It's also occurred to Steve and I that this might make an interesting though not terribly compact center channel at an attractive price point... could even make sense to consider the midranges in an MTM format. Availability of the "midrange" is the key issue, other than the fact that I have a box of them for building a line array that will probably not get built, due to other projects in progress.
    the AudioWorx
    Natalie P
    M8ta
    Modula Neo DCC
    Modula MT XE
    Modula Xtreme
    Isiris
    Wavecor Ardent

    SMJ
    Minerva Monitor
    Calliope
    Ardent D

    In Development...
    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
    Obi-Wan
    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
    Modula PWB
    Calliope CC Supreme
    Natalie P Ultra
    Natalie P Supreme
    Janus BP1 Sub


    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

    Comment

    • theSven
      Master of None
      • Jan 2014
      • 855

      #3
      Originally posted by JonMarsh
      It's also occurred to Steve and I that this might make an interesting though not terribly compact center channel at an attractive price point... could even make sense to consider the midranges in an MTM format. Availability of the "midrange" is the key issue, other than the fact that I have a box of them for building a line array that will probably not get built, due to other projects in progress.
      That's an interesting proposal to use as an MTM... Funny what happens when you stop and reflect for a moment and then the ideas flood in. The fun of DIY and building is that it is endless. I don't think there is ever a floor or ceiling!
      Painter in training

      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 15261

        #4
        Yes, very true, the key challenge being finding time to work on evaluating concepts and prioritizing time and resources for builds!
        the AudioWorx
        Natalie P
        M8ta
        Modula Neo DCC
        Modula MT XE
        Modula Xtreme
        Isiris
        Wavecor Ardent

        SMJ
        Minerva Monitor
        Calliope
        Ardent D

        In Development...
        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
        Obi-Wan
        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
        Modula PWB
        Calliope CC Supreme
        Natalie P Ultra
        Natalie P Supreme
        Janus BP1 Sub


        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

        Comment

        • Wayman
          Member
          • May 2014
          • 89

          #5
          With so much amazing work being done on the Saint-Ssens, I was wondering if conceptual framework could be adapted to this smaller build using the PT-6825-8?

          Cheers, Wayne

          Comment

          • JonMarsh
            Mad Max Moderator
            • Aug 2000
            • 15261

            #6
            Are you thinking about the PT6825 as a relatively low budget midrange, or seeing how well it would run from around 1kHz up to the top end? Granted, that appears to be limited to about 15kHz, but the reality is a lot of folks can't hear even that high....


            This is another case where some experiments would be needed to figure out the optimum rear sub enclosure configuration- judging from the factory curve, it isn't as a dipole or in a large enclosure.

            When you consider the factory response curves, my thought is that the PT6816 might be easier to work with and more amenable to some flexibility of application and sub enclosure size-


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            Just look at the dimensions of the driver- it's like a triple stack of the PT2522... the $64 question is, is it as smooth as the factory data sheet claims? The PT2522c is not. nor is the PT2522.

            ​​​​​​​But, only one way to find out... as is normal, my bank account gets an injection on the first of the month, and I'm in a good mood, so I'm ordering two with front panel plates to find out!



            the AudioWorx
            Natalie P
            M8ta
            Modula Neo DCC
            Modula MT XE
            Modula Xtreme
            Isiris
            Wavecor Ardent

            SMJ
            Minerva Monitor
            Calliope
            Ardent D

            In Development...
            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
            Obi-Wan
            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
            Modula PWB
            Calliope CC Supreme
            Natalie P Ultra
            Natalie P Supreme
            Janus BP1 Sub


            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

            Comment

            • Wayman
              Member
              • May 2014
              • 89

              #7
              I certainly didn't think it thru as clearly as you have. I did think since it's almost 1/3 the cost it might be suitable as a mid for a lower cost build. I also noted that like the PT5010, it has a rising response (if that proves to be real?) and thought with a similar offset it may do well & help shorten development time.

              And yeah it does look like a triple stack! Good point.

              Cheers, Wayne




              Comment

              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15261

                #8
                Oh, I don't really doubt the rising response. Soon I'll know; four on order.

                For reference, here is the PT5010 in a 15L enclosure, this is as close to IB open back as I've measured it.


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                Now, here is the exact same unit, but in 7.5, also with a careful damping configuration:


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                Differences are due solely to the rear enclosure volume and some slight tweaks to the damping setup- basically the same materials, actually! And the this is the same part, measured in two different enclosures that have identical front baffle configurations...

                This is what one is up against to optimize the PT5010, and to a similar extent the 2522, and why I've tested 4 different configurations for each before saying, "Ok, I think this is about as good as we'll be able to do."

                For example, here is 3.5 L, again, with an identical front baffle configuration:


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                the AudioWorx
                Natalie P
                M8ta
                Modula Neo DCC
                Modula MT XE
                Modula Xtreme
                Isiris
                Wavecor Ardent

                SMJ
                Minerva Monitor
                Calliope
                Ardent D

                In Development...
                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                Obi-Wan
                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                Modula PWB
                Calliope CC Supreme
                Natalie P Ultra
                Natalie P Supreme
                Janus BP1 Sub


                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                Comment


                • JonMarsh
                  JonMarsh commented
                  Editing a comment
                  If the 6816 looks anything like the data sheet, it will be easy to tweak to relatively flat, once the right sub enclosure volume/configuration is dialed in. Will be larger than the 2522, because of the possibility to say, work down to 800Hz. I'm favoring seeing how the idea of a two way would work, with two of the RSS210HF, two RSS265 PR, and one or two 6816 as a line array mid-tweeter- would keep the cost down a lot for the crossover. Trick would be getting the balance right at a nominal listening distance, certainly more than one meter, probably 2-3 meter. Then the general in room balance should be OK. (line arrays fall off slower with distance than point sources) So, imagine the tweeter height optimized to cover the 30-50" area.
              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15261

                #9
                And to give you an idea of where things can go with that 7.5L version, here's the POC bandpass crossover measured today, polars from 0 degrees to 50 degrees off axis.


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                This is nailing my target and hopes; no more tweaks until everything is put together in the full top module build, not just an MDF test enclosure. Nominal crossover frequencies are 450Hz and 2400Hz.


                On axis with distortion plot:


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                the AudioWorx
                Natalie P
                M8ta
                Modula Neo DCC
                Modula MT XE
                Modula Xtreme
                Isiris
                Wavecor Ardent

                SMJ
                Minerva Monitor
                Calliope
                Ardent D

                In Development...
                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                Obi-Wan
                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                Modula PWB
                Calliope CC Supreme
                Natalie P Ultra
                Natalie P Supreme
                Janus BP1 Sub


                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 15261

                  #10
                  Now, just to take the "thought experiment" with the PT6816 a bit further, I loaded up the provided FRD and ZMA data, ugly as it is, to see what might be done with a "brute force massage" in the crossover without going too crazy....

                  The selected target transfer function is an 800Hz LR3 high pass, an Eazy Peazy cross point for the RSS210HF if you wanted to configure a two way. In fact, the ideal would probably be a 2.5 way, so you only have the upper driver to consider with that high a crossover, as regards CTC distance.


                  This is working just with the factory supplied FRD curves- here's a plot of the driver response as measured by the factory, plotted out to 40kHz, but graphed just to 100Hz on the bottom end.


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                  My experience with this family of drivers shows the similarity of behavior to similar parts like the big Magneplaner drivers; in that, the low frequency diaphragm resonance will produce a Qts related bump in the output level- for the Magnepans/Magneplanars, this is how they get their LF dipole EQ to produce something reasonably flat in room. This bump is generally followed by a dip in the response, then a climb up to a higher level until the upper frequency limit from mass is uncounted. My experience is that you get the best results pushing that resonant frequency up just enough to fill the dip somewhat, and adjusting that and the damping to get the smoothest response through the desired passband.

                  Just compare the published data for the PT2522 and the PT2522c with the rear cup and you have a clear, if not optimum, example of this.

                  Those with sharp eyes will note that the response plot from the FRD file is NOT as flat as the published SPL sample, for example, compare the rise between 2kHz and 5kHz for the two.


                  So, mainly as an experiment and intellectual exercise of sorts, I put together a crossover to see what could be made of this "as is". In practice, I would/will spend a fair amount of time on sub enclosure experiments, though given my experience with the PT2522, I think a variation on my MOD3 enclosure may work best. Time will tell. The parts on order should get here Thursday, but very early Friday I'm leaving on a storage run to CA, so these will have to wait until some time after I get back.

                  Here's the result..


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                  And the result with off axis data 0-15-30-45 deg:


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                  This is a brute force approach, and not what I'd recommend, but it gives an idea of what is possible. The right way is to address as much as possible with the acoustic loading of the driver first, IMO.


                  Note, there is no actual data above 20kHz in the FRD files provided by PE for this part; it's just a straight line extrapolation based on the recent real data.





                  the AudioWorx
                  Natalie P
                  M8ta
                  Modula Neo DCC
                  Modula MT XE
                  Modula Xtreme
                  Isiris
                  Wavecor Ardent

                  SMJ
                  Minerva Monitor
                  Calliope
                  Ardent D

                  In Development...
                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                  Obi-Wan
                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                  Modula PWB
                  Calliope CC Supreme
                  Natalie P Ultra
                  Natalie P Supreme
                  Janus BP1 Sub


                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment

                  • JonMarsh
                    Mad Max Moderator
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 15261

                    #11
                    For further explanation and illustration, I'm going to plot the FRD files that are provided for the PT2522 (dipole version) and my own "MOD3" of that, which is closer to the optimization that might be needed for the PT6816.


                    First, the factory 0 Deg SPL file directly plotted in VituixCAD, then the polar 0-15-30-45 plot.

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                    Now, data recorded for the MOD3 update for PT2522, both on axis with distortion, and 0-40 deg polar in 10 degree increments, not the 15 degree used for the PE supplied data:


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                    Note, this is REAL data above 20kHz, not a nonsensical extrapolation. You can see how the Fs has been pushed up, and there is less dip in the center.


                    Now, this is MOD4, note, still only 1/24th octave smoothing (I.E., minimal):




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                    As you can see, this is quite a long ways from the base FRD performance in full dipole mode. I show these examples to highlight the challenge of working successfully with these parts, and the necessity for acoustic solutions for acoustic problems. The MOD4 is targeted for operation with a crossover frequency of 2.2 to 2.4 kHz.






                    the AudioWorx
                    Natalie P
                    M8ta
                    Modula Neo DCC
                    Modula MT XE
                    Modula Xtreme
                    Isiris
                    Wavecor Ardent

                    SMJ
                    Minerva Monitor
                    Calliope
                    Ardent D

                    In Development...
                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                    Obi-Wan
                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                    Modula PWB
                    Calliope CC Supreme
                    Natalie P Ultra
                    Natalie P Supreme
                    Janus BP1 Sub


                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                    Comment


                    • JonMarsh
                      JonMarsh commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Note, all of my measurements above are only 1/24th octave smoothing, which is to say, minimal.
                  • JonMarsh
                    Mad Max Moderator
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 15261

                    #12
                    The PT6816's arrived yesterday, I'd post pictures but server issues are preventing me from transferring pics from my phone to the computer.

                    An interesting thing is that the stamped panels look "crisper" and cleaner, as if from different tooling design than the 2522's I have.

                    It will be interesting to see how they measure- I'm getting the impression that however the FRD files are created for PE for some of these drivers, the measurement setup isn't very good- results are rather "dirty" (as in acoustic reflections) compared with my own test setup.

                    ​​​​​​​Now, an interesting question- should this move forward, especially if it does as a two way, is it really an Ardent, or another Natalie P variant? If done in a two type configuration with PR's, then it definitely would move into the "love child" category between the two...
                    the AudioWorx
                    Natalie P
                    M8ta
                    Modula Neo DCC
                    Modula MT XE
                    Modula Xtreme
                    Isiris
                    Wavecor Ardent

                    SMJ
                    Minerva Monitor
                    Calliope
                    Ardent D

                    In Development...
                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                    Obi-Wan
                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                    Modula PWB
                    Calliope CC Supreme
                    Natalie P Ultra
                    Natalie P Supreme
                    Janus BP1 Sub


                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                    Comment

                    • Evil Twin
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Nov 2004
                      • 1531

                      #13
                      Once again I am detecting a serious disturbance in the Force, and the likelihood of Rebel spies plying their craft...

                      Though deliberate misdirection has been used in this topic post as to the true goals and intent, nonetheless it seems that key aspects of the development direction behind the minor revelations in this topic have been discerned by a well known commercial firm...

                      In this case, I am referring to the "early" oblique disclosure of the "FR10" loudspeaker system from PS Audio...


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                      There can be little doubt that the intended upper range driver complement is based on the well known PT2522 for HF, and a derivative or exact usage of the PT6816, revealed and discussed very briefly earlier in this topic...



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                      It is also most curious that the passive radiators mounted on the enclosure rear would "appear" to fit the form factor of the SB15SFCR which were sourced at our facility many months ago for the development of this more diminutive member of the planar driver family....


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                      Though there is another dual woofer system in development consideration, that uses the PuriFi PTT8.0X04 woofers and the high end complement of planar midrange and AMT tweeter.

                      This system was defined as a more "budget" oriented solution, hence the reference to "Dayton Ardent", as the woofers will be a Dayton model, selected for synergistic performance at a very manageable BOM, and like the classic Ardent configurations, wired in series.

                      It might seem that this is merely a "curious coincidence", but in my long experience in the Imperial sector, I have learned, sometimes in painful ways, that there is no such thing as a "coincidence"....

                      At this point, there is no reason to withhold this level of information regarding the project which has been code named "Scarlatti", after the well known Italian family of composers and the singer Rosa Scarlatti.

                      ​​​​​​​Of course, in fairness, Giorgio Scarlatti, the Italian Formula One driver should not be overlooked, either.









                      ​​​​​​​
                      DFAL
                      Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                      A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                      Comment

                      • Evil Twin
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Nov 2004
                        • 1531

                        #14
                        Of course, now that PS Audio has "revealed their hand" with the FR10, there is no drawback to to revealing the current state of development here, as it would soon be reported in any case by the Rebel spies among us.

                        It should be noted that while a higher sensitivity design with the SB15SFCR-00 passive radiator was considered and evaluated internally, it's performance characteristics versus enclosure size were believe to be left wanting... certainly not suited to the SMJ family. This decision was based on linearity characteristics with excursion of both the main driver and the passive radiator candidate.

                        Instead, it is believed a more satisfactory solution will be arrived at by using the LF drivers from the SMJ-40 concept, but just 2 of them, and using the recently introduced and acquired RSS210PR passive radiator, a component of fairly sophisticated design characteristics and far greater linear excursion capability:
                        • SMS™ (Sandwich Mass System) permits greater linearity by minimizing angular torque
                        • Durable yet compliant suspension provides substantial linear travel and mechanical stability - 20mm
                        • Rigid cast aluminum frame with thick black anodized aluminum cone
                        • Cosmetically identical to the popular Reference Series subwoofer lines and RSS210HF-4 used as the primary woofer

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                        These will be mounted on the rear enclosure wall, and due to T/S characteristics, only one PR per woofer is required to achieve a satisfactory response characteristic in a total of 60L for two woofers and two passive radiators. With boundary lift, extended performance to the low 20's can be realized.

                        Click image for larger version

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                        DFAL
                        Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                        A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                        Comment

                        • Evil Twin
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Nov 2004
                          • 1531

                          #15
                          Note, this plot below is for 2 drivers and 2 PR's in a 60L enclosure; the above plot is a POC evaluation for just one driver and PR.

                          Click image for larger version

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                          This plot is for probing the upper boundary of SPL capability... at about 75% of woofer Xmax.


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                          DFAL
                          Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                          A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                          Comment

                          • Evil Twin
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Nov 2004
                            • 1531

                            #16
                            Now, for a "worst case" study for the PT6816, assuming that a custom sub enclosure and damping configuration cannot improve on the factory dipole configuration (a most unlikely case, based on experimentation to date), this is an example of a bandpass configuration from 600Hz to 2500Hz using my preferred LR3 configuration.




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                            while I would not term this first design pass "optimum", it clearly hints at the potential to be realized from this driver in a more optimized enclosure configuration.
                            DFAL
                            Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                            A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                            Comment


                            • Evil Twin
                              Evil Twin commented
                              Editing a comment
                              It must also be said that the sonics for local testing of free pair parameters in a slow sine chirp were most promising as regards the potential audio quality.
                          • JonMarsh
                            Mad Max Moderator
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 15261

                            #17
                            Well, ET seems to have the midrange design well in hand, and the Chancellor has agreed to his participation in that area, but for now we are investigating more wallet friendly low frequency solutions. It is quite conceivable that there could be a Scarlatti, and a Scarlatti Supreme, the latter using the RSS210HF-4 woofers.

                            But, for now, there is an interesting new value option for the low frequencies that will be investigated, the Dayton SIG180-4. Two of these would be wired in series, in "traditional" Ardent style, for an "easy" LF load.

                            The SIG180-4 appears to be very easy to work with, and is reputed to have careful Kippel optimization and edge termination, and uses a concave one piece aluminum cone of careful design.


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                            T/S parameters are reasonable for a variety of enclosure alignments.

                            My current "favorite" is with two RSS210PR without added weights, with a slow roll off extending the low end to near 30Hz, and working best in a Cardas style layout with boundary distances chosen for LF lift below 60 Hz.


                            Click image for larger version

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                            With 3 PRs in the same size enclosure, a flatter response but with higher cutoff is possible:


                            Click image for larger version

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                            ​​​​​​​With this alignment, a power of 20W per woofer (40W at 8 ohms) will results in an SPL of 106 dB per cabinet, at just below the 82% BL force Xmax rating.
                            the AudioWorx
                            Natalie P
                            M8ta
                            Modula Neo DCC
                            Modula MT XE
                            Modula Xtreme
                            Isiris
                            Wavecor Ardent

                            SMJ
                            Minerva Monitor
                            Calliope
                            Ardent D

                            In Development...
                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                            Obi-Wan
                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                            Modula PWB
                            Calliope CC Supreme
                            Natalie P Ultra
                            Natalie P Supreme
                            Janus BP1 Sub


                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                            Comment

                            • augerpro
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Aug 2006
                              • 1866

                              #18
                              Can't wait to see 3rd-party measurements of the Signature series. What they've done with the breakup in the 5" and 6" is amazing.
                              ~Brandon 8O
                              Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                              Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                              DriverVault
                              Soma Sonus

                              Comment

                              • JonMarsh
                                Mad Max Moderator
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 15261

                                #19
                                Yeah, me too. But in my case, I'm waiting for 1st party measurements!

                                Ordered 4 today.

                                Haver a couple of possible projects in mind.
                                the AudioWorx
                                Natalie P
                                M8ta
                                Modula Neo DCC
                                Modula MT XE
                                Modula Xtreme
                                Isiris
                                Wavecor Ardent

                                SMJ
                                Minerva Monitor
                                Calliope
                                Ardent D

                                In Development...
                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                Obi-Wan
                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                Modula PWB
                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                Natalie P Ultra
                                Natalie P Supreme
                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                Comment

                                • JonMarsh
                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 15261

                                  #20
                                  Just returned from my transport trip, a lot of boxes waiting for me, which is nice! A lot of items on the agenda this week, but not so much that I couldn't take a peek at the SIG180-4 and do a quick impedance and open air parameter check... and a couple of pictures, too, the ones on PE's website are not very clear...

                                  Click image for larger version  Name:	SIG180 Side Bottom.jpg Views:	0 Size:	658.4 KB ID:	938615
                                  Nice frame design, looks like good flow through on the back side, and a wider mounting flange than typical for a 180mm driver.


                                  Click image for larger version  Name:	SIG180-4 Top.jpg Views:	0 Size:	705.4 KB ID:	938616


                                  Looks like a pretty careful junction design of the surround to the cone... my only "quibble" is that it's not very wide, and I'm curious to see what 3rd party Kippel measurements reveal about Cms linearity. Of course, the Xmax is just 5mm, not a deep bass driver.


                                  Along the same lines as pictures, the SIG180-4 mech drawing:



                                  Click image for larger version

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                                  Now, something that was "interesting" about the Mech drawing PDF, is that it was actually the mechanical drawings for a number of drivers... including two larger ones, a 225mm (8") and a 270mm (10")

                                  Click image for larger version  Name:	SIG225 Mech.png Views:	0 Size:	582.0 KB ID:	938619



                                  Click image for larger version  Name:	SIG270 Mech.png Views:	0 Size:	562.4 KB ID:	938620


                                  So, I suppose the appropriate advice would be to "stay tuned".



                                  The factory DATS curve seems to be for a well broken in driver, or perhaps, a "golden sample"


                                  Click image for larger version  Name:	SIG180-4 DATS Factory.png Views:	0 Size:	463.1 KB ID:	938621

                                  Note Fs is 40Hz.


                                  This is what I measured on one of my samples, fresh out of the box this morning. Note, Fs is 50Hz.

                                  I should put this part on a function generator for a while and see how it looks after a day or two...



                                  Click image for larger version  Name:	SIG180-4 DATS.png Views:	0 Size:	389.1 KB ID:	938622

                                  There are some curious differences worth remarking on, I think...
                                  • Factory Fs of 40Hz, measured of 50Hz; this is a bit more percentage wise than one normally sees for the difference between a new driver and one "broken in" with some usage.
                                  • Qes factory measured (remember, using the same DATS test system as I do!) of 0.4285, versus 0.47 for my own- implies a possible difference in motor BL, note Re are close to identical
                                  • Factory L(e) measured at 1kHz at 0.4833mH is higher than my measurement at 10kHz, of 0.3615mH, and that is rather odd- it goes up with frequency, not down.
                                  • Factory Qms (mechanical Q) of 5.738 versus my measurement of 10.57- this is a LARGE difference, and hard to account for. The difference in Fs may be a factor, but this implies a significant difference in the ratio of cone mass versus compliance. Curious. Dayton doesn't include the Rms resistive loss in specs, so this may be where the difference lies.
                                  • For the factory specs of Qms, Wes, and Vas, the Qts should come in around 0.38, not 0.43 or 0.47. I plan to generate a Unibox Model based on these updates to the driver, out of curiosity.

                                  My temporary conclusion is that using factory data for enclosure design may not be as reliable as I would hope/expect.

                                  Like the old saying, goes, "In God we trust, all others we verify".


                                  I have a test cabinet assembled, just need to route a mounting hole and connector. Expect another report back in a few days.

                                  BTW, the DATS sweep tone was both loud and smooth sounding. THAT was a good start...

                                  Frankly, I'm almost thinking this would be a could candidate for a new Wilson Audio clone of some sort... for the midrange... and...

                                  Guess who brought back from climate controlled storage a pair of vintage NIB Focal TC120DX2?


                                  Click image for larger version  Name:	NIB TC120TDX2.jpg Views:	0 Size:	832.5 KB ID:	938623


                                  It's going to be interesting measuring these with modern gear... but that will have to be later... much later, after current projects are completed!














                                  Last edited by theSven; 15 July 2023, 13:54 Saturday. Reason: Update image location
                                  the AudioWorx
                                  Natalie P
                                  M8ta
                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                  Modula MT XE
                                  Modula Xtreme
                                  Isiris
                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                  SMJ
                                  Minerva Monitor
                                  Calliope
                                  Ardent D

                                  In Development...
                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                  Obi-Wan
                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                  Modula PWB
                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                  Comment


                                  • JonMarsh
                                    JonMarsh commented
                                    Editing a comment
                                    using my own measured parameters, the Unibox behavior changes significantly, a good PR design is 30L for two drivers wired in series, with 4 RSS210PR with minimum MMS, of 185 g. Produces an F3 of 43Hz with an Fb of 37Hz, with a quadi-Bessel LF roll off (low Q).
                                • Evil Twin
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Nov 2004
                                  • 1531

                                  #21
                                  Some of this discussion and driver proposals are vaguely interesting, but I find that they far short of the true substance and impact of the Ardent series.

                                  It is especially worthwhile, as Steve Manning completes the construction of what may be the last Wavecor Ardent build, to consider it's heritage and legacy, and while consideration of cost structures should be a factor, a more important one is driving performance with out compromise in comparison to it's progenitor.

                                  For this reason I have initiated a design study and comprehensive modeling effort for a "Dayton Ardent" which I believe better adheres to it's origins, while delivering exemplary performance based on contemporary expectations... this is NOT to be confused with the potential Ardent Supreme project, which goes in another direction completely as regards component and build costs.
                                  • WOOFERS: Dayton RSS210HF-4, due to its excellent cone design, good suspension without Cms compromises, and reasonable motor linearity and distortion- plus a favorable cost structure. Two drivers to cover 25Hz to 450Hz in a PR configuration; or 30Hz to 450Hz sealed as a "traditional" Ardent configuration
                                  • MIDRANGE: GRS PT5010, 450Hz to 2400Hz, very good linearity in this bandwidth with the right rear sub-enclsoure, good polar behavior, and a very reasonable cost structure compared with the Accuton predecessor.
                                  • TWEETER: Beyma TPL75, due to its resonance free performance, low distortion, and SPL capability and form factor.

                                  Yes, this could be viewed as an effort to determine how much of the SMJ-40/Saint-Saëns Planar experience can be delivered in a single cabinet format of traditional cabinet architecture at a relatively affordable price, compared to the SMJ Ardent Supreme concept or SMJ-24, which are about double the enclosure volume and triple the driver pricing for a similar low frequency format.

                                  A basic VituixCAD design synthesis based on existing driver measurements and crossover designs is under way.
                                  DFAL
                                  Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                  A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                  Comment

                                  • Evil Twin
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Nov 2004
                                    • 1531

                                    #22
                                    Let us examine some options for the overall low frequency configuration with the RSS210HF4...


                                    While comparing and optimizing sealed, vented, and passive radiator with individual options for net LF enclosure volume might be an interesting endeavor, in keeping with the concept of managing costs and time I will only examine basically one net volume configuration for each of these options... 50L. This is slightly larger than for the Wavecor Ardent, but it reflects the differences in T/S parameters.



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                                    If using a ported configuration, in consideration of the required port dimensions and resulting "issues" (length as a function of port diameter and that dictated by keeping port velocity in bounds) as well as port resonance, I would use a plane loaded port as done in the SMJ Calliope.





















                                    DFAL
                                    Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                    A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                    Comment

                                    • duvixan
                                      Member
                                      • Sep 2012
                                      • 54

                                      #23
                                      This might be a bit early to ask, but is a smaller design à la​ FR10 being seriously considered?

                                      Comment

                                      • Evil Twin
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • Nov 2004
                                        • 1531

                                        #24
                                        This is a question with no simple answer as yet...
                                        • It is additionally complicated by our experience measuring the GRS PT series of drivers and comparing to the data sheets, which at times seem to be taken from "golden samples", not general production. Refer to comparisons between the data sheet for the PT2522c and actual measurements of that tweeter. It is possible to flatten this out with additional filtering, but then the savings from the price of the tweeter are expended in the crossover, without realizing all of the benefits of a component such as the TPL75.
                                        • The SPL response of the planars is also complicated by the rear loading; excepting the PT2522c with it's shallow cup, all drivers are measured in dipole mode, and the interaction between LF diaphragm resonance and response above that is marked- flattest response is generally obtained with a custom enclosure optimizing the actual Fb of the driver system for the purpose of obtaining the flattest and smoothest response between Fb and the rise at the top with narrowing dispersion. The DS SPL given for the PT2522c does not match my actual measurements on many samples or the HiFi News measurement up top of the FR30.
                                        • The FR10 appears to use drivers of the same general structure as the PT6825 (midrange) and the PT2522 (treble), along with two 6.5" paper cone woofers from Peerless. Oval passive radiators are used on the enclosure rear wall, similar in configuration and size to an SB Acoustics model.
                                        • The choice of locating two woofers with relatively high crossover points (due to the limitations of the midrange driver, more about this) so far from the midrange and so close to the floor is an "interesting" decision, not meant in a necessarily positive connotation, based on many past experiments. This is somewhat similar to the layout proposed by that North American designer formerly with AR, Roy Allison, but poses radiation issues that advise a crossover frequency no higher than about 350Hz, which does not seem suited to the available midrange driver.

                                        Some specific data items...


                                        Configuration of PS Audio FR10:

                                        Click image for larger version  Name:	FR10 at PS Audio.png Views:	0 Size:	1.63 MB ID:	946959



                                        Data sheet SPL response of PT6825 Midrange-Tweeter planar:

                                        Click image for larger version  Name:	PT6825 SPL.png Views:	0 Size:	157.6 KB ID:	946958


                                        The smoothest, most extended relatively flat response optimization of PT2522 with customized (4th generation) rear enclosure with denim damping, and distortion plot:


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                                        Click image for larger version  Name:	PT2522 403 1-Disto.png Views:	0 Size:	243.6 KB ID:	946961


                                        Now, considering the PT6816, and using the factory data, optimistic that it may be, this clearly mandates a higher crossover frequency than 350Hz or thereabouts.



                                        Click image for larger version  Name:	fetch?id=937500&d=1685052334.png Views:	0 Size:	77.2 KB ID:	946966





                                        The measured response of 5010 in "4th generation" midrange enclosure; current Saint-Saëns build is what I call a 5th generation design.


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                                        PT 5010 Measured response 0 - 50 degrees in 4th generation sub enclosure with current crossover design:


                                        Click image for larger version  Name:	PT5010-X Polar 0-50 Deg.png Views:	0 Size:	249.4 KB ID:	946963


                                        PT5010 Distortion with crossover in 4th generation sub enclosure design:


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                                        Most satisfactory...


                                        And a very "crude" POC test measurement with a stacked enclosure and test fixture aligned by hand for the calculated Z-axis offset, of the PT5010 plus TPL75:


                                        Click image for larger version  Name:	PT5010+TPL75 1.0 offset FWD Disto.png Views:	0 Size:	182.9 KB ID:	946965
                                        Adjustments to this design will not be considered until measurements are conducted in a built top module cabinet, an event which is fast approaching. But this result is also quite encouraging for the final result. Some would be very satisfied at this point alone...



                                        Examining the PT6825 and PT2522, it is fairly evident that this level of performance probably cannot be realized with those drivers, regardless of crossover effort.


                                        Now, this leaves some speculation with regards to the LF configuration and reasoning or concepts that might influence the design choices...
                                        • The four driver woofer array of the FR30 and the Saint-Saëns has some benefits that generally accrue only to line arrays
                                        • In this case, a key benefit is an actual 6dB increase in both power sensitivity and output capability. Dropping back to two drivers has significant drawbacks.
                                        • Should the focus on a smaller system be full range extended response, or sensitivity and SPL capability in a more limited bandwidth? Let us consider an approach for the latter...
                                        • Returning the Dayton SIG810-4 to consideration, 4 of this woofer would increase the acoustic output capability down to 40Hz by 6 dB, and raise the net sensitivity by a similar amount, also alleviating the loss from baffle step compensation. This configuration would also make possible a higher crossover frequency, possibly one that works with the lower cost PT6816 at 600-700 Hz. However, it's not likely that this driver would match the distortion performance of the PT5010.
                                        • In more absolute terms, a system configuration like this would work well initially for many kinds of music, and work most effectively in a planned subwoofer system with high pass on the "mains".
                                        • Last, any time one is considering the construction of a three way system, the crossover cost overhead is a major cost factor, sometimes dwarfing the driver component cost.
                                        • At its retail pricing the PT5010 is quite high value compared with the drivers used in the Wavecor Ardent and many other "conventional" systems. It covers an area of response critical to music and the human ear... and the adapted response is straightforward to work with.
                                        • Development time and effort is another factor... much effort has been invested in optimizing results with the PT5010. An alternative PT2522 custom construction is also accomplished, exhibiting no worse "issues" than the HiFi News measured results for the FR30.
                                        • Given all these considerations
                                          • For a "Dayton Ardent", the 2x RSS210HF-4 + PT5010 and TPL75 will be preferred.
                                          • For a "junior" Saint-Saëns, perhaps designated the "Scarlatti, a 4x line array of the SIG180-4, the PT5010, and tweeter of choice could be considered.


                                        HiFi News FR30:


                                        Click image for larger version  Name:	FR30 SPL HiFi News.png Views:	0 Size:	444.0 KB ID:	946967




                                        DFAL
                                        Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                        A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                        Comment


                                        • JonMarsh
                                          JonMarsh commented
                                          Editing a comment
                                          To clarify a point or two: If one leaves out the notch filters in the PT2522 crossover, then the cost is lowered significantly but peaks in the upper range like the HiFi News measurements will be evident. For old guys, that may not be any problem, for example, considering the Golden Ear award at Absolute Sound for the FR30. Its pluses are more evident than the short comings. But the low price of the tweeter and reduced cost of the crossover may be an acceptable trade-off to many.
                                      • duvixan
                                        Member
                                        • Sep 2012
                                        • 54

                                        #25
                                        Thank you!
                                        It seems then that trickle down efforts are not quite justified or worth it in the case of PT6825+PT2522

                                        There is a familiar looking alternative (with a corresponding wg) on a european site that may warrant further investigation...
                                        Neo magnets and Kapton diaphragm Extremely smooth response, extended HF up to 40kHz Superior sonic transparency and resolution Extremely wide and even horizontal dispersion Reliable design for long term operation Environmental protection

                                        https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/waveguide-for-radian-lt2.html​

                                        Comment

                                        • Evil Twin
                                          Super Senior Member
                                          • Nov 2004
                                          • 1531

                                          #26
                                          I gave Radian products a preliminary investigation last year, but did not find a compelling value proposition. Others may not agree, and should investigate for themselves. But I will recount highlights of their technical materials and claims, and my perceptions and judgments regarding the provided data, including pricing. As well, I will attach some data sheets for more detailed examination...


                                          It appears that TLPH has a very early version of the LT2 planar tweeter and preliminary documentation. The heritage of this product line can be clearly traced back to B&G, possibly a technology licensing agreement.

                                          Imagine a taller 2522 with two more horizontal rows of radiating area- this constitutes the basic concept of the LT2, at least in it's early form.


                                          Click image for larger version

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                                          In this iteration it uses a rear cup somewhat deeper than the PT2522c.


                                          Click image for larger version

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                                          Though it is offered without or with a waveguide, most of the published response plots are only with a waveguide, such as in the Preliminary data sheet.


                                          Click image for larger version

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                                          However, this part seems to have been redesigned after TLHP got samples, as different data is on the Radian web site last year.


                                          Click image for larger version

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                                          The packaging is certainly "cleaner". However, the published data for horizontal response is not satisfactory.... and not an improvement.

                                          And this is with the waveguide.


                                          Click image for larger version

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                                          The original data sheet:


                                          LT2-5 Preliminary.pdf



                                          And for reference the revised version:

                                          RADIAN_LT2_WEB_SINGLE_PAGES.pdf










                                          DFAL
                                          Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                          A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                          Comment

                                          • Evil Twin
                                            Super Senior Member
                                            • Nov 2004
                                            • 1531

                                            #27
                                            Now, a brief overview of the 10" midrange driver, similar to the PT5010, though twice the price.

                                            Click image for larger version

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                                            Some "descriptive verbiage" from the data sheet- note the claimed "effective frequency range" in line 6.


                                            Click image for larger version

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                                            Consider that claim in light of the horizontal directivity response tested in an IEC infinite baffle equivalent:


                                            Click image for larger version

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                                            One does not need to be a Sith Lord or Jedi master to sense a disturbance in the force with these claims...


                                            For reference and more data, the LM10 data sheet.




                                            LM10n-datasheet-v2.pdf



                                            DFAL
                                            Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                            A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                            Comment

                                            • JonMarsh
                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 15261

                                              #28
                                              I'm going to also throw in a couple of observations/comments that I think are relevant design considerations...


                                              First, about the useful operating range versus claims or measured performance.

                                              As a general rule, I figure that the lowest nominal system frequency I'll use a midrange or tweeter driver is an octave ABOVE the actual corner roll off frequency. This gives some range to implement the crossover and attenuate the level to the driver BEFORE it starts "losing it" and giving up the ghost.


                                              So, let's look at one of the nicer looking factory curves for the LT2...


                                              Click image for larger version

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                                              Now, what I'm seeing here is a corner frequency of 2500Hz, so I would say, go no lower than 4-5kHz for the crossover frequency. That's assuming an LR3 or higher order.


                                              Now, here is the MOD4 version of the PT2522...

                                              Click image for larger version

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                                              Let's call the "natural rolloff" in this configuration 1250 Hz; the planned usage was a crossover frequency of 2400-2500 Hz.

                                              With the "fancy-schmancy" crossover filter with series notch elements, it will look like this:


                                              Click image for larger version

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                                              Note that the effective crossover slope is steepened below 1250Hz due to the driver roll off, but does not impact the system response at that point, being nearly -20 dB already.



                                              Item #2, the curious impedance data provided by Radian for the LM10.

                                              Click image for larger version

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                                              Now, this plot ALMOST leads me to make an ET like comment, such as, "This potentially appears to be a relatively inept job of pasting the impedance curves of three samples of this part together in one graph".

                                              Either that, or the measurement gear has some kind of issue. Those steps in the impedance transfer function at 100Hz, 1kHz, and 10kHz do not look like a native driver response.


                                              For comparison, here is the raw driver impedance curve measured for the PT5010 which was used in testing MOD1 through MOD4 rear enclosure concepts:


                                              Click image for larger version

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                                              Impedance curves can be very diagnostic of driver resonances, both subtle and substantial. The primary Fs resonance is "substantial", here at about 180Hz in dipole mode, and fairly high Q for this kind of driver with a low mass diaphragm. The additional bumps likely indicate low level resonances; mainly at about 575 Hz and up at 7500Hz.


                                              Interestingly, the sub enclosure mods producing the smoothest, flattest frequency response in the target operating region (500Hz to 2500Hz) result in a plateau like impedance shelf, between 250Hz and 750Hz.


                                              Click image for larger version

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                                              I do not have a good explanation for why it works this way, but work it does seem to do... perhaps it's just something as simple as the overlap of low midrange resonances achieved by changing the effective total compliance via the air mass load.













                                              the AudioWorx
                                              Natalie P
                                              M8ta
                                              Modula Neo DCC
                                              Modula MT XE
                                              Modula Xtreme
                                              Isiris
                                              Wavecor Ardent

                                              SMJ
                                              Minerva Monitor
                                              Calliope
                                              Ardent D

                                              In Development...
                                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                              Obi-Wan
                                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                              Modula PWB
                                              Calliope CC Supreme
                                              Natalie P Ultra
                                              Natalie P Supreme
                                              Janus BP1 Sub


                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                              Comment

                                              • JonMarsh
                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                • Aug 2000
                                                • 15261

                                                #29
                                                SSASSEN has brought to my attention what may be a running design/manufacturing change in the Dayton SIG180-4.

                                                Coming from 35 years in a very strictly controlled design and manufacturing environment, and given the times I've been "burned" in the past by loudspeaker driver manufacturers, I have to avoid "over reacting"- these changes may reflect actual improvement in the driver performance or manufacturability.

                                                Without qualitative measurements to compare, it's hard to know....


                                                Two pics to compare:


                                                "My" SIG180-4:

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                                                The "new" SIG8180-4:


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                                                Now, the very inappropriate and politically incorrect thing to note, would be that the newer one looks like a Chinese knock-off of the original- not featuring the same seamless cone center, and with a more conventional flat surround to cone termination.

                                                But both are made in China.

                                                Note, the online documentation has not changed.



                                                Click image for larger version

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                                                This is clearly a significant change to the cone and surround design, dropping "features" from the original version. Possibly those features were found to be problematic, or possibly they were found to be difficult to implement consistently in production. Hard to know with out more information.


                                                I have 4 of the "original" and have been considering designing and building an LF test cabinet with 4 in series parallel with PR's of some time, probably RSS210PR, as a POC for the "Scarlatti" concept. The 4x configuration has advantages over a double driver configuration as described previously.




                                                Uh, stay tuned?



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                                                Comment

                                                • ssassen
                                                  Junior Member
                                                  • Aug 2023
                                                  • 2

                                                  #30
                                                  Adding to Jon's comment, I have four (4) of these, bought from a official local Dayton distributor (I'm in the Netherlands), so I'm not questioning whether these are genuine Dayton parts, as the only thing that differs is the cone and the surround. I agree with Jon that this could perhaps be a (recent) design change, perhaps to improve consistency of the specifications? Or to tighten up on manufacturing tolerances?

                                                  Comment

                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                    • 15261

                                                    #31
                                                    Hopefully we can get some answers to those questions- Steve and I should be able to figure out who to contact.

                                                    Meanwhile, I got in gear this morning on a number of topics BUT I also setup and did a quick QNF measurement of one of the samples I have, and results were somewhat as I expected, based on construction. I'll explain as I go along.


                                                    Let's look at a combined SPL and HD2 + HD3 plot.


                                                    Click image for larger version

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                                                    Before I dig in to any comments, let me post the cross section illustration again...


                                                    Click image for larger version

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                                                    Why did I do that? Well, it's because I think this driver has been "optimized" in a specific way, probably due to a request from someone in marketing, but in some regards it doesn't make as much sense as I'd hoped for.


                                                    I do believe that they made some effort to optimize the BL linearity and symmetry, even though the Xmax is not very high at 5 mm. Note that HD2 and HD3 are quite similar in the area from 60Hz to 150Hz. I suspect that the "full aluminum sleeve" in the inner magnetic circuit has some function in that regard. It may even linearize the impedance curve up top.

                                                    BUT!

                                                    There is no copper in the gap, based on this cutaway diagram. And while a fair amount of effort seems to have gone into reducing the Q of an upper end breakup mode to a small amplitude peak, about what you usually see in paper cone drivers like the EighteenSound 6ND40 or the PuriFi PTT6.5X04-NFA, there appears to be a good bit of inductivity modulation in the gap, and this shows up in the rising HD3 following the general HF output trend above 1kHz. So, while HD3 is around -55 dB at 150H down to 60Hz, it steadily climbs above 200Hz to -45 dB at 800Hz. The Epique E180HE-44 rises to about -35 dB 500Hz, and has a 10 dB higher baseline level in the mid bass (about -45 dB, instead of -55 dB). But the Epique does have about double the Xmax, so for bass heads, it's probably your part...



                                                    Now, this isn't a terrible level, but this sort of characteristic (like the Epique E810HE) hints at higher IM distortion in the midrange also.

                                                    What does a more ideal solution for the midrange look like?


                                                    How about this....

                                                    Click image for larger version

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                                                    Gosh darn, but I'm cheating here, this is a PuriFi aluminum cone driver! Not fair!!


                                                    Let's go look at one of those cheaper woofers made in Taiwan for Dayton... say, how about the RSS210HF-4? It's a "traditional" subwoofer so we wouldn't expect that great a midrange performance, right?


                                                    Click image for larger version

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                                                    Uh..(cough)... hmmm.


                                                    ​​​​​​​This is a subwoofer? SPL and distortion measure more like a high performance midrange driver... 2nd order steadily declining from -50 dB @ 100Hz, to -70 dB at 1kHz; HD3 is pretty much flat at at -60 from 100 Hz to 1200 Hz, then the expected resonance amplification above 1200Hz from the breakup mode at... 4.7 kHz? For a hard cone woofer?


                                                    Hmm, triple shorting ring motor... both the SIG180-4 and the RSS210HF-4 are 4 ohm drivers, but look at the impedance curves- at 2 kHz and 8 kHz; the RSS210HF is 25% lower at 2kHz and over 50% lower at 8 kHz. I've always found it a good idea to look at what the Z's look like at 3x or so the maximum frequency I plan to use a driver. It's diagnostic.

                                                    ​​​​​​​I would have to do some diagnostic checks for IM to see if I could use the SIG180-4 below 400Hz in a Scarlatti concept.

                                                    But let's put this in perspective- it's a dollars and cents, or a Euro's and pennies sort of issue- an easy to work with driver for a very small sum, relatively speaking. Do I wish they'd spent a bit more? And charged me more? Yes. It's also from a different vendor than the RS or RSS products, probably with a different design philosophy and approach to their own local market.

                                                    So, I may have to keep looking for my ideal bang for the buck or Euro 6.5" woofer- do a thorough review of what's out there as well as what I've used in the past.

                                                    Meanwhile, we can share data and see how what seems to be the revised version works relative to the ones I have.









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                                                    Comment

                                                    • duvixan
                                                      Member
                                                      • Sep 2012
                                                      • 54

                                                      #32
                                                      So, I may have to keep looking for my ideal bang for the buck or Euro 6.5" woofer
                                                      Doesn't the good ole SB17NBAC qualify?

                                                      Comment

                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                        • 15261

                                                        #33
                                                        And let's not forget the SB17CAC35-4, my favorite in the SB17 family! (I have 4 on hand...)

                                                        Two considerations make them a less than ideal choice- price, and the net volume required for a target cut off F3 around 38-40Hz for 4 drivers in a reflex alignment (in the neighborhood of 80-90 L). Not quite monkey coffin drivers, but closing in on it.

                                                        But, yeah, these are great parts. But they don't make sense on a price/performance comparison to the RSS2110HF-4, especially not at the commercial price.

                                                        The main reason for looking at a smaller 6-6.5" driver is reducing the cabinet size and cost and the driver BOM for this target configuration. May not be possible, but I probably will model and build up a 4x SIG180 cabinet to test. Still working on the PR choice.
                                                        Last edited by JonMarsh; 08 August 2023, 17:14 Tuesday.
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                                                        Comment

                                                        • ssassen
                                                          Junior Member
                                                          • Aug 2023
                                                          • 2

                                                          #34
                                                          Interesting, as is the discussion I'm having with my supplier. Take note this is a B2B order, and up to this point they refuse to acknowledge de driver looks different than advertised, despite the pictures on the Dayton website clearly not matching my drivers, i.e. they do not have a smooth concave cone.

                                                          Comment

                                                          • technodanvan
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • Nov 2009
                                                            • 998

                                                            #35
                                                            This is kind of crazy considering how much hype the SIG series has received - and the full lineup hasn't even been revealed yet! I can't believe they would change the cone on purpose, that's a huge selling point for many potential buyers, including myself. I imagine OEMs would be furious if they ordered a bunch of the SIG series only to see they don't feature a clean cone any longer.
                                                            - Danny

                                                            Comment

                                                            • JonMarsh
                                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                              • 15261

                                                              #36
                                                              Originally posted by ssassen
                                                              Interesting, as is the discussion I'm having with my supplier. Take note this is a B2B order, and up to this point they refuse to acknowledge de driver looks different than advertised, despite the pictures on the Dayton website clearly not matching my drivers, i.e. they do not have a smooth concave cone.
                                                              Show them the pictures of mine, as well as the full size feature drawing- attaching that again here. The native resolution is 3300 x 2200. VERY clear image.


                                                              Click image for larger version

Name:	SIG180-4_build_callouts.png
Views:	399
Size:	1.22 MB
ID:	947229
                                                              the AudioWorx
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                                                              Comment

                                                              • JonMarsh
                                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                • 15261

                                                                #37
                                                                Originally posted by technodanvan
                                                                This is kind of crazy considering how much hype the SIG series has received - and the full lineup hasn't even been revealed yet! I can't believe they would change the cone on purpose, that's a huge selling point for many potential buyers, including myself. I imagine OEMs would be furious if they ordered a bunch of the SIG series only to see they don't feature a clean cone any longer.
                                                                Well, that and the change in the edge design and the surround termination! I mean, you can see what mine look like! The pictures online are a bit murky, due to lighting values, but no question for this:


                                                                Click image for larger version

Name:	SIG180-4 8-8.jpg
Views:	406
Size:	366.5 KB
ID:	947231
                                                                the AudioWorx
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                                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                Comment

                                                                • JonMarsh
                                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                                  • 15261

                                                                  #38
                                                                  Like I said, SSASSEN's picture looks like a Chinese knockoff, not a Chinese original!

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                                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                                    • 15261

                                                                    #39
                                                                    Oh, and I do have a new PR design, that seems pretty satisfactory - ironically, it works best with a fair amount of resistance in series with the woofers, so high DCR inductors would be OK and of course money saving.
                                                                    the AudioWorx
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                                                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                                      • 15261

                                                                      #40
                                                                      One more thought or possible issue to mention..,


                                                                      One of the things I have been involved in is qualification programs internally and customer qualification programs- of course, the focus is on reliability, which means preservation of operating characteristics and performance after exposure to time based stress conditions, such as high temperature operation, voltage cycling, etc; many of these tests are 1000 hour tests.

                                                                      I would hazard a "guess" or "speculation" that something has been discovered either internally or with a key customer unveiling a reliability issue or performance issue with relatively short time usage in the original design and materials. Or there was a sub vendor problem.

                                                                      For example, perhaps there was an assembly issue with the voice coil to cone joint in the original design, and this necessitated a different process and different sub vendor cone part, and that part is not compatible with the indexed cone to surround junction, hence having to revert to a conventional surround. Or there could have also been an issue with that indexed cone to surround fabrication, and the only quick way to fix it was with a different cone part and a conventional surround.

                                                                      I'm going to try contacting someone at PE this morning...

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                                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                                        • 15261

                                                                        #41
                                                                        Detailed inquiry posted to PE this morning
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                                                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                                          • 15261

                                                                          #42
                                                                          I have an initial response back from PE on this; they were not aware of any running changes, and are contacting both "Sound Imports" and Dayton to find out what's going on.
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                                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • Bear
                                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                                            • Dec 2008
                                                                            • 1038

                                                                            #43
                                                                            Looks like another great project, and a worthy evolution of the Ardent series
                                                                            Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • JonMarsh
                                                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                                              • 15261

                                                                              #44
                                                                              Well, Bear, you've been on HT Guide long enough to know how sometimes ideas have to wend and wind though a complicated development path!

                                                                              Re the SIG180's, I still haven't gotten a "resolution" update from Dayton, just an acknowledgment that there seems to be something funny going on.

                                                                              The "Chancellor" assigned me as the key "minion" for ET's center channel project, and that project fits into the category of the old Chinese curse, "May you live in interesting times", due to physical issues in the targeted listening/viewing room, and now pursuing two new iterations of that design after a lot of physical simulations of the setup required.

                                                                              BUT, ET's bit of Kii nostalgia did uncover a potentially very useful and very reasonably priced FSL-0512R01-08 Peerless midrange driver for which the French distributor TLHP has a fair amount of stock, and this part would receive first consideration for a Dayton Ardent now...

                                                                              This is the quasi near field response, correlates well with IEC test baffle at one meter in a very clean acoustical environment, only 1/24th octave smoothing, and it's not hard to see why Kii chose this driver:


                                                                              Click image for larger version

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                                                                              And, yeah, it's curious how low the HD2 is, but that should translate typically into low IMD numbers overall, but haven't gotten around to setting up the APx and testing for that yet.

                                                                              But now, the Chancellor has recommended I "assist" ET with his Kii Tribute project, sans all the expensive and fancy power electronics and DSP, so that's also turning into a bit of a time sink, though it certainly looks promising on paper based on driver measurements in house...

                                                                              Click image for larger version

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                                                                              In fact, today I'm tasked with finishing the layout and building the POC crossover (parts just came in) for the H1499 DXT driver.


                                                                              It wouldn't be at all hard to imagine this transferring to a Dayton Ardent, and note, this IS a Duelund style crossover- but the shallow design of the SBS-160 woofers makes that feasible, probably will have to go with an LR3 approach for the Ardent implementation.


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                                                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • Bear
                                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                                • Dec 2008
                                                                                • 1038

                                                                                #45
                                                                                Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                                                Well, Bear, you've been on HT Guide long enough to know how sometimes ideas have to wend and wind though a complicated development path!
                                                                                I'm definitely not buying drivers yet... 😉 Heck, I'm sitting on too many in inventory now as it is! 😂😂
                                                                                Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

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