Another statement II build

[audiophil]

Hi All,
I am building statements II tower. I currently have Klipsch (RP 160M) bookshelf and I find it very bright. I went to burning amp event in SFO last Nov and met some nice people and heard some nice amps/speakers and realized what I am missing in mid range. I didn't want to buy another speaker without knowing the freq response curve (with my limited knowledge - that is the best parameter I have). I came across statements II design and read very good reviews on its mid range and I liked the tweeter selection (as a novice - no technical reason on why i liked it) decided to build it (with average wood working exp).
After convincing myself on the cost, ordered the parts and started on wood work (two friends experienced in wood work and speaker building are helping me big time).
I have attached a picture of my living room (screen to ear is 13' , width 14', Height is 8', wooden floor) where the speakers will be used (primarily for music but also HT). I understand placement is very important for statements but I will have to make use of the limited option I have (rental). The new towers will be on the same location where the current klipsch is. The black box on the left (in the pic) is sub (15" VTF-3 Mk5 HP) from HSU (bought it before i entered the DIY world but no regrets, but sure could have saved some money - may sell it later)



I had posted some questions in another thread and was corrected that I should start a new thread. So, I have copy pasted my question and the comments it got here for easier reading for others.

[audiophil]

I had posted some questions in another thread and I was corrected that I should start a new thread. So, I have copy pasted my question and the comments here for easier reading for others. https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...080#post623080

1. I read that the mid range tunnel can be circular (cylinder?) instead of square. I prefer circular as it makes the wood working simpler. I couldn't find 5" tubes and I found 6" concrete form tube. Is it ok to use 6 inch tube and pad the inner wall with ~1inch of foam?
2. Even if i have to use a square, is there any padding needed on the inner wall of the tunnel?
3. I am going to use the port on the rear panel and I read that it can be placed just below the bracing. I have ordered the precision port from meniscus. Should I just place it below the bracing with the flare flush with the back panel?

Replies:
1)needs to be 5" if circular. I recommend going square, as I anecdotally think it provides better cabinet bracing.
2) Yup, 1" open cell foam, bevel the front of the foam (the side closest to the mid) and leave about 2" gap between the inside of the baffle and where the foam starts.
3) This is cosmetic, and up to you - will you peak around the back of yours speakers to admire your handy work? Or will you forget what the back looks like after listening?
----------
Is it possible for Audiophil to use 1/2" CLOSED cell foam to line the 6" tube then line that with the one inch foam?
Just thinking outside the box. Working with what he has on hand.
You could also look for a cardboard mailing tube to reduce the diameter of the concrete form tube.
--------------
Here's the problem with using larger than 5" PVC which isn't commonly available and really expensive when it can be found is, the spacing on the MTM is tight enough and the Fountek NeoCD3.0 requires notches cut into the top of the lower mid enclosure and the bottom of the top mid enclosure. That works fine with the MDF square enclosures and can be easily done with a rasp. I just don't see how that could be accomplished with 6" PVC. 5" should be perfect if it can be found.

[Supernova]

As they say, pictures or it hasn't happened.

Good luck on the build and can't wait to see the progress pictures.

[Renron]

Hi All,
. I currently have Klipsch (RP 160M) bookshelf and I find it very bright.

Your Not alone, I find the Klipsch to be painfully bright. This is exactly how I started in speaker building too. I bought a pair of ~$400 Klipsch mid sized took them home and my ears bled. Being an old termite, I figured I could build better speakers for that price. I was right, and a lot of my family has benefited my my new hobby. ~20+ pair and have lost count. Old guy..............
We Want Pictures!!!
Ron

[audiophil]

Will update on sunday with pics. Wood work is happening in my friends place. Will get the drivers on monday and i am excited.

[audiophil]

Yes Ron, Initially I didn't realize it but after a month or so, i was not able to listen to it for more than 30 mins. Hopefully I will be able to sell it off. This is my first speaker build and after reading so much about statements, I am so eager to listen to them.

[audiophil]

OK, i have uploaded some pics. Sorry for the delay but got busy with work and made some progress last weekend. I had to keep reminding myself to take pics and so they don't follow any sequence. So far, assembled all the wood, front panel is yet to be glued to the box. Made some changes to one of braces (the ones that come behind woofer) to make it more sturdy. Rounded the edges of the braces but anyway they will get a coat of foam. The Mid range tunnel is a single box with spacers in between. Made a mistake of drilling the port at the bottom on one tower and at the top on the other tower. So, had to make a circular piece with MDF and seal the wrong port with plenty of epoxy (it happens). Plan to keep the mid range and tweeter crossovers directly behind the tweeter (not yet checked whether they will go thru the hole but if it goes, that is the plan). Woofer cross over will go on top of bottom brace. Couple of questions.

1. Pknaz already suggested how to use foam in the mid range tunnel. I will follow that and am going to cover all exposed wood inside the box with foam. Is that ok?
2. Painting. What is the easiest and cheapest way to cover this? I am already running out of budget and not looking for very expensive options. Got a suggestion to use lacquer as a filler and then few coats of primer and then spray paint (matte black) with multiple sanding in between. Also checked out laminate (expensive). Anything simple? I am not keen on how it looks. Some thing basic and black (black to avoid reflections from the box as they will be close to screen). I didn't like the texture coating available in parts express.

very eager to listen to them

[audiophil]

Here is the pic of cross overs.

I used hot glue to place them on the MDF given by meniscus. Made sure I melted glue on to the board and after a few seconds pressed the components on the glue. It's holding pretty good. used very little glue on the inductors and they are held by neighboring components as well. All wires coming and leaving will go over a small binding post glued to the board so that wires don't exert any tension on the components. Joints with more than two wires will also get a binding post to secure it to the board and not exert any tension. Only the iron core inductor has plastic wire ties. Will the resistors get hot enough to melt the glue? I didn't want to put plastic wire ties on all of them as i needed flat surface on the back of the board to attach Velcro strips.

[Browncoat]

Wow, you move fast! Nice, clean work here.

Sorry, I can't help with your questions much, but it's hard for me to imagine a black finish that's cheaper (or faster) than rattlecan. I've tried dyeing and staining MDF, and my results weren't good at all. On the other hand, as long as I prep carefully, I can manage a fairly nice looking finish with spray paint.

BTW, I've searched all over for black MDF, and I haven't found anything available to consumers in the US. Apparently, it's a thing in Europe--I think Troels uses it for his projects.

[Steve Manning]

OK, i have uploaded some pics. Sorry for the delay but got busy with work and made some progress last weekend. I had to keep reminding myself to take pics and so they don't follow any sequence. So far, assembled all the wood, front panel is yet to be glued to the box. Made some changes to one of braces (the ones that come behind woofer) to make it more sturdy. Rounded the edges of the braces but anyway they will get a coat of foam. The Mid range tunnel is a single box with spacers in between. Made a mistake of drilling the port at the bottom on one tower and at the top on the other tower. So, had to make a circular piece with MDF and seal the wrong port with plenty of epoxy (it happens). Plan to keep the mid range and tweeter crossovers directly behind the tweeter (not yet checked whether they will go thru the hole but if it goes, that is the plan). Woofer cross over will go on top of bottom brace. Couple of questions.

1. Pknaz already suggested how to use foam in the mid range tunnel. I will follow that and am going to cover all exposed wood inside the box with foam. Is that ok?
2. Painting. What is the easiest and cheapest way to cover this? I am already running out of budget and not looking for very expensive options. Got a suggestion to use lacquer as a filler and then few coats of primer and then spray paint (matte black) with multiple sanding in between. Also checked out laminate (expensive). Anything simple? I am not keen on how it looks. Some thing basic and black (black to avoid reflections from the box as they will be close to screen). I didn't like the texture coating available in parts express.

very eager to listen to them

Looking good so far. With regard to your question about painting, have you done a search on the forum? It has been covered a number of times. Probably should be made into a reference thread so it would be nice and handy for new and old members alike.

[Renron]

AudioPhil,
Make sure you can remove your XO boards later from wherever you place them. A component may fail, you may want to upgrade them at at later date. Don't be sorry later.....
Use zip ties to hold down the capacitors, they won't run away so you don't have to deform them strapping them too tight. Snug 'em up tight.
The resistors won't get too hot to melt the glue, no worries there, put a small screw in the mounting holes.
Solder the connections together, you'll learn how to solder and the connections will stay tight.
If your going to paint them, do your homework reading, then read some more, then some more about bondo and what types of materials to use.
Paint wise. Hmm. MDF needs to be LIGHTLY sanded first with 120 - 180 grit. Many coats of primer then sanding, more primer, more sanding then top coat paint. There is NO easy way to finish the cabinets and have them look good. Staining is out of the question.
What experience and tools do you have painting. HVLP, airless, turbine??? Only rattlecan experience? that's OK too.
Just tell us what you want them to look like when finished.
Ron

[audiophil]

i think i will go with shellac to seal the wood and use some spray paint on it. Thanks for the tips on rattlecan. I will check that out.

[audiophil]

Renron & Steve Manning,
i did search online and got some tips from friends. The current plan is to use shellac to seal the wood (making sure edges gets extra coating). Most probably 2 layers with sanding in between. Then will use some spray paint that comes in a can (similar to or rattlecan suggested by Browncoat).

I intend to keep the cross over accessible, but i am worried that I will damage the MDF if I remove the drivers few times. One option is to use epoxy to seal the damaged screw holes and drill again. I was thinking of using screw anchor but that may be a over kill.

Thanks.

[Steve Manning]

Renron & Steve Manning,
i did search online and got some tips from friends. The current plan is to use shellac to seal the wood (making sure edges gets extra coating). Most probably 2 layers with sanding in between. Then will use some spray paint that comes in a can (similar to or rattlecan suggested by Browncoat).

I intend to keep the cross over accessible, but i am worried that I will damage the MDF if I remove the drivers few times. One option is to use epoxy to seal the damaged screw holes and drill again. I was thinking of using screw anchor but that may be a over kill.

Thanks.

Threaded brass inserts are your friend for speaker removal.

[Renron]

I'm going to have to break my usual opinion which normally agrees with Steve Manning here.
I Won't use inserts any more. I've found them too large to fit properly without blowing out the inside of their mounting hole. It always deforms the MDF, Wood or Plywood next to the speaker driver cut out hole. There is not much "meat" left there anyway.
I now use a correct size drill bit and use Allen head bolts straight into the MDF / Ply. Each driver will need a specific size according to size of the mounting hole in the basket of the driver. I've never slipped out of an allen head screw like a phillips. They will screw down plenty tight and repeatedly without damaging the MDF / Plywood. If I am really overly anal or worried about the screws I'll put a drop of superglue or fingernail polish on the threads before driving them home on the final install.

If your going to use shellac, Make sure you buy De waxed shellac like Zinsser SealCoat. If you put it on too thick it WILL crack and craze later. You've been warned.
You can put many thinned coats on, then sand them back (220 grit) however. Please note, this will NOT hide any defects, it only makes a smooth surface for the paint to adhere to.
Do yourself a HUGE favor and test what you want to do on a piece of scrap first. Complete the test ALL the way to the finish coats. Let it sit a week and see if you like it then.
Ron

[Garyf52]

For mounting speakers, I've found that Hurricane Nuts work very well. Parts Express carries them. They don't tear up the baffle, and with a little epoxy they are strong and secure. I usually drill though a small scrap and glue the Hurricane Nut to that. Then glue that assembly to the back of the pre-drilled baffle. Use slow setting epoxy and run your bolts through the speaker installed in position and everything should line up perfectly. A little wax or grease on the bolts will prevent the epoxy from sticking to it.

[Steve Manning]

I'm going to have to break my usual opinion which normally agrees with Steve Manning here.
I Won't use inserts any more. I've found them too large to fit properly without blowing out the inside of their mounting hole. It always deforms the MDF, Wood or Plywood next to the speaker driver cut out hole. There is not much "meat" left there anyway.
I now use a correct size drill bit and use Allen head bolts straight into the MDF / Ply. Each driver will need a specific size according to size of the mounting hole in the basket of the driver. I've never slipped out of an allen head screw like a phillips. They will screw down plenty tight and repeatedly without damaging the MDF / Plywood. If I am really overly anal or worried about the screws I'll put a drop of superglue or fingernail polish on the threads before driving them home on the final install.

If your going to use shellac, Make sure you buy De waxed shellac like Zinsser SealCoat. If you put it on too thick it WILL crack and craze later. You've been warned.
You can put many thinned coats on, then sand them back (220 grit) however. Please note, this will NOT hide any defects, it only makes a smooth surface for the paint to adhere to.
Do yourself a HUGE favor and test what you want to do on a piece of scrap first. Complete the test ALL the way to the finish coats. Let it sit a week and see if you like it then.
Ron

What size inserts have you been using Ron?

[Jim Holtz]

FWIW, I used inserts once. I forget the name but they were similar to Hurricane nuts. I had one come loose when trying to remove a driver and I never did get it out. That was a center channel design from about 15 years ago. I soon figured out that I've never had a problem with deep thread #8 screws available from PE and similar ones at the local home store. If I do, I'll put a little glue on a tooth pick, insert it into the the bad hole and the problem is solved. It bites like new again.

My $0.02 worth....

Jim

[Steve Manning]

These are what I use for securing drivers. https://www.mcmaster.com/#90016a009/=16yvvkx. I do add some CA glue in the hole to lock things in place. Now, it does take a little practice to get these things to go in straight and since they are made of brass, a heavy hand is not a good thing, you will cross thread, bind what ever. Going larger than an 8-32 you will end up with issues like Ron described in mdf for drivers. So far I've found Baltic birch takes these inserts very well.

[audiophil]

If I do, I'll put a little glue on a tooth pick, insert it into the the bad hole and the problem is solved. It bites like new again.

Jim

Though i was inclined to use a insert, most of the feedback that I got is similar to what Jim had mentioned. The screw has 3/4 inch + most of the 1/4 inch front baffle. Even if the hole in MDF loses grip, I will try to fill it with Epoxy and pre drill a hole for the screw.

[audiophil]

If your going to use shellac, Make sure you buy De waxed shellac like Zinsser SealCoat. If you put it on too thick it WILL crack and craze later. You've been warned.
You can put many thinned coats on, then sand them back (220 grit) however. Please note, this will NOT hide any defects, it only makes a smooth surface for the paint to adhere to.
Do yourself a HUGE favor and test what you want to do on a piece of scrap first. Complete the test ALL the way to the finish coats. Let it sit a week and see if you like it then.
Ron

Thank you for the tips Ron. I am ok for the defects to be seen. Also, i will be using black spray paint and it might hide some defects - though, i am not bothered if defects are seen. Unfortunately I couldn't find Zinsser SealCoat in local store (homedepot or lowes). I will try to find it in other stores.

[Renron]

Audiophil, you might consider a "textured" finish on your speakers. Primer first then lightly sand then base coat (Black?) then textured coat. Test on scrap. Test on scrap.
I'm shocked that H.D. doesn't have any SealCoat on the shelf. Don't forget the de-natured Alcohol to thin the shellac. I buy it on a regular basis from our local H.D. link;

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Zinsser-1-qt-SealCoat-Wood-Sealer-824H/202070456

Steve, I used those (in your link) in the base of my Ardents. They had to be epoxied in. I remember the Jig you built to install them, a nice piece of work. As always.
But, I have had fantastic luck without them for many years now. Simply use the correct size bit and predrill . I've mentioned previously that I use a Vix-bit also called a hinge bit. Allen threads 6x32, 8x24, 10x24 . Most of the time I use 8x24 x 1.5".
Ron

[wkhanna]

i remember of some builds, mostly subs, iirc, that used truck bed-liner type finish.

[---k---]

Holy crap those are some big caps!

I mostly use plywood, but some MDF. Old woodworkers trick I've used for stripped holes in wood. Take a couple of wood match sticks. Lather them up with wood glue and stick in the old hole. Let dry a little. Put a little wood glue on a screw and drive it into the hole. Let dry. Then you can remove it and reuse the hole.

If using inserts, I've glued a scrap piece of plywood on the back of the MDF and attached the insert into the plywood rather than the MDF. and then usually apply some epoxy for added measure.

In experimentation, I found Minwax Wood Hardener to be very effective sealing and hardening MDF. Iirc, I got about 1/8" penetration into the wood.

[Steve Manning]

Holy crap those are some big caps!

I mostly use plywood, but some MDF. Old woodworkers trick I've used for stripped holes in wood. Take a couple of wood match sticks. Lather them up with wood glue and stick in the old hole. Let dry a little. Put a little wood glue on a screw and drive it into the hole. Let dry. Then you can remove it and reuse the hole.

If using inserts, I've glued a scrap piece of plywood on the back of the MDF and attached the insert into the plywood rather than the MDF. and then usually apply some epoxy for added measure.

In experimentation, I found Minwax Wood Hardener to be very effective sealing and hardening MDF. Iirc, I got about 1/8" penetration into the wood.

With the thought of using wood hardener ..... you can always tap some threads directly in the wood and chase it up with some hardener down in the treads. You might need to re-tap the threads when it's all dry, but it ought to give some longevity to the threads.

[audiophil]

Audiophil, you might consider a "textured" finish on your speakers. Primer first then lightly sand then base coat (Black?) then textured coat. Test on scrap. Test on scrap.
I'm shocked that H.D. doesn't have any SealCoat on the shelf. Don't forget the de-natured Alcohol to thin the shellac. I buy it on a regular basis from our local H.D.

Ron,
yes HD and other big box stores didn't have it on stock to pick it up. Shipping was the only option. However, i managed to pick the last gallon of it from another store, including mineral spirits and denatured alcohol. Picked rustoleum chalkboard flat black ( http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Oleu...3830/100117456 ) paint. Will try it on scrap wood to see how it goes.

[audiophil]

Audiophil, you might consider a "textured" finish on your speakers.
Ron

I saw speakers with textured finish and i didn't really like it (i felt, it looked more of commercial outdoor speakers than in home one) - just my subjective taste and opinion. Thank you suggesting that though.

[Renron]

I was referring to the spray can "Granite" look / texture, not the bedliner thick semi soft texture / look. I should have been more specific. That Chalk texture is known to show finger prints and wipe spots when dry. YMMV. Yes, please test it and show us the results.
If you bought a gallon of Seal Coat, which BTW is a lifetime supply, buy 3 empty quart cans and fill them up. Seal Coat has a shelf life of about 6 - 12 months once opened. I'm cheap errr Frugal and I use old glass jars cleaned. Pickle relish jars are perfect.
K,
Excellent idea with the wood hardener, I've used super glue / (clear) nail polish with the same effect.
Ron

[Browncoat]

I don't know if it works with the SealCoat containers, but I know some people crush Waterlox containers just enough to remove the air space.

[Renron]

Best idea I've heard is to put large glass marbles in the can to fill the dead air space. They're reusable too!

[audiophil]

I was referring to the spray can "Granite" look / texture, not the bed-liner thick semi soft texture / look. I should have been more specific. That Chalk texture is known to show finger prints and wipe spots when dry. YMMV. Yes, please test it and show us the results.
If you bought a gallon of Seal Coat, which BTW is a lifetime supply, buy 3 empty quart cans and fill them up. Seal Coat has a shelf life of about 6 - 12 months once opened. I'm cheap errr Frugal and I use old glass jars cleaned. Pickle relish jars are perfect.
Ron

Ron,
I did look at the granite look one but decided to go with chalk board. I have attached a pic of that pain on scrap wood. As you said, it does show spots and it's black is not as deep as I expected but I think I will just go ahead with that.
Regarding seal coat, i too thought one gallon is too much when i found it so watery(thin). But I have used more than half of a gallon already. I applied a thin (very thin - just enough to cover the wood) layer, sanded with ~300 grit paper and added another such thin coat. The edges absorbed them a lot and had to touch the edges many times.

Thanks.

[audiophil]

Best idea I've heard is to put large glass marbles in the can to fill the dead air space. They're reusable too!

I have some open cell foam and egg crate wedge foam that was shipped by Meniscus along with the kit. That won't be sufficient to fill all the exposed wood. I am planning to use some fiber glass roll (covered with cheese cloth or stockings).

[audiophil]

Filled the inside with some foam and most spaces with the fiberglass. It was a 3" pad and had to make it thinner to fit near the drivers. Is this sufficient or more filling is required? Yet to glue the front panel and paint the box.

Thanks.

[Jim Holtz]

The RS225's should have a lined cavity behind them with the lining back from the inside of the inner front baffle a couple inches so the drivers can breath. The lining is there to kill sound wave reflections that would bounce into the back of the driver cone.

HTH

Jim

[Renron]

Thanks Jim

[Jim Holtz]

My pleasure gentlemen. I do what I can.

Jim

[audiophil]

The RS225's should have a lined cavity behind them with the lining back from the inside of the inner front baffle a couple inches so the drivers can breath. The lining is there to kill sound wave reflections that would bounce into the back of the driver cone.

HTH

Jim

Sorry for the delay in response Jim. Work took all my time away.
Yes, i am using open cell foam to line tunnels. I am tapering the foam at the end near (with 2 inches gap) the drivers.

Thanks.

[audiophil]

Thanks Ron

[audiophil]

Finally got some time to continue work on it. Decided not to paint it now (the color from shellac looks nice) and assembled the drivers and cross overs. Used the boards given by Meniscus and placed them inside the box below the bottom woofer using velcro. Made sure the wires don't stress the solder joints. Powered it on and made sure all drivers work but didn't get much time to listen to them. Will update today evening with more details.

[Jim Holtz]

Finally got some time to continue work on it. Decided not to paint it now (the color from shellac looks nice) and assembled the drivers and cross overs. Used the boards given by Meniscus and placed them inside the box below the bottom woofer using velcro. Made sure the wires don't stress the solder joints. Powered it on and made sure all drivers work but didn't get much time to listen to them. Will update today evening with more details.

Let them break in for about 20 hours before you do any serious listening.

Enjoy!

Jim

[audiophil]

Got it Jim. While I am at work, someone is playing various genres on them . Will do some listening tonight and very eager. With whatever little listening that I did, the clarity is amazing.

[audiophil]

I am thoroughly enjoying the speakers and finally could spend some decent hours with them. This is my listening experience (mixed with feedback from friends, some of them are speaker builders and rest are novice in speaker terminology). I don't have any reservation on genre and it ranges from indian classical to progressive rock including heavy metal and sometimes it's asian/spanish/random country instrumental. Also, the klipsch bookshelf speakers were the "costliest" speakers I have listened to at $500/pair.

The best placement for these towers I could get was in a corner (with a 30 deg toe in towards the listening position) with a wall on one side and projector screen blocking any reflected waves.

The most impressive part every one was so thrilled about was clarity. It's really really wonderful. Every note is crystal clear. Especially indian carnatic vocals and instrumentals in progressive. The voice sounds so natural. It's incredible.
For me, i had to first unlearn the horn tweeter. My brain consistently kept thinking why it's so natural, i had the pleasure of re-loving all the songs that i loved while listening on horn
The base is perfect, tight and just how much it has to be. May be I overfilled with the damping material but the base is very precise. The best part is that the sub merges with the woofer very well. There are no gaps. It was a pleasant surprise. May be i am not extracting the best from these towers due to placement.
One thing to note is that poor quality music sounds bad (well, that should be expected). The horn tweeters highlight certain frequencies and cover up the poor quality (and of course modify the intended music). I have to invest to buying good quality music.
Thanks to Jim and Curt for keeping this design in public domain and for the forum members to keep it alive.

[Jim Holtz]

Excellent! Thank you for the feedback. :T

Enjoy the music!

Jim

[Renron]

Audiophil,
"May be i am not extracting the best from these towers due to placement.
One thing to note is that poor quality music sounds bad (well, that should be expected). The horn tweeters highlight certain frequencies and cover up the poor quality (and of course modify the intended music). I have to invest to buying good quality music.".

Thrilled you enjoy YOUR speakers so much. They will get even better (the bass) with more hours on them. In the future, Pull some stuffing out and see if you like them better.
Yes, pull them out from the corners as far as you can, you will hear the sound stage depth increase. You'll know it when you hear it.
You will become spoiled with the clarity of your speakers, next time you listen to Klipsh at Best Buy you'll hear things differently.
Just like a computer program ; crap in crap out. The biggest gain in music quality I've had from my speakers is a new DAC with good quality recordings.
Now that your hooked on high quality sound, Welcome to the club!
Ron