Modula NeoD CC Planning and Build

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  • jkjkaufm
    Junior Member
    • Aug 2012
    • 8

    Modula NeoD CC Planning and Build

    First let me start by saying that this forum has been a wealth of knowledge, and thank everyone for contributing and helping out. I've been reading and absorbing as much as I can for what seems like ages, and I'm finally ready to jump in and start my project.

    I stumbled across a few of the now discontinued Peerless D26NC55 tweeters, and I've always liked the Modula NeoD CC design so I have decided to go with that. My intent is to build two mains and a center for now, but I purchased enough of tweeters to eventually build two more for surrounds down the road.

    I've always liked the look of curved cabinets and came across an interesting construction method that uses many ribs stacked up to create the enclosure. I've attached a rough model I've started so you can get an idea of what I am referring too.


    Click image for larger version

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    I've managed to keep the baffle the required 9" however because of the nature of this construction technique the opening that the baffle sets into must be wider. I've attached a cross section of the baffle set into the enclosure for reference.

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    My main question is will this additional width adversly affect sound quality?? I know Jon designed the crossover with BSC correction and I'm worried that my overzealous cabinet design may be ruining all the hard work he put into the design in the first place. I am going to have all the ribs CNC cut so I wanted to get a second (or third, or fourth) opinion before I sent out the design for quote.

    Now as I'm sure you guys have noticed by now that there is an extra driver cutout on the baffle. My plan is to use this setup for both music and home theatre/movies and I don't have a sub yet so my thought was to integrate a small sub into each of main towers. Based on the geometry of the front baffle I picked the dayton RSS210HF-4 to use for the sub. The main speaker would be completely seperated from the the sub compartment. I am planning on using the subs ported in ~40 litres tuned to ~25 Hz. As well the Modula's will be built into ~40L also ported as I've read in other build threads that it is a better overall volume for the HiVi woofers.

    Well I think that is it for now, but I'm sure I will have more questions as I move through this project. I appreciate any and all comments on the overall design, I've been reading and planning for a long time now but am by no means an expert and am willign to tweak things to make them better. So far the only thing that is set in stone are the drivers as I have purchased them, but everything else is open .

    Thanks,
    Jeff
    Last edited by theSven; 01 May 2023, 17:41 Monday. Reason: Update image locatio
  • ---k---
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Nov 2005
    • 5202

    #2
    Jon's comments are the only ones who matter. But since you asked for a second or third or forth opinion, I'll give you mine - which should probably be considered the forth opinion.

    Beautiful sketch up.

    I don't think the changes you're showing will be audible enough to worry about. They may be measurable, but.... I do wonder if it would be better though to see if you could get a smoother transition at your corners. Can the CNC people not integrate the front baffle too, so each layer would only be one piece? With a good model, each layer could even have the driver cut outs. Is there a technical reason for the inlaid baffle?

    Also, you don't have any flat area on back. Where are you putting your binding posts (side or bottom) and ports (front)? Does that matter to you?

    It is too bad your proposed design only allows a 8" sub. I like big subs. I'm just have a hard time believing that little 8" would satisfy me if I cranked my Blue Man Group DVD to 11 like my current subs do. It seems like if you're going through all that trouble to build them, it is just as easy to build a 15" versus a 8". I know there are other variables to consider. Maybe an 8" with a PR? The 10" Utlimax + PR that Jon is experimenting with looks appealing. But, anyway, here are some thoughts. Take a hard look at your models. Did you remember to subtrack the port and driver volume so you truly have the space you think you do. Do the subs keep up and have the same SPL capability at 25 hz as the mains at 100 hz or whatever? If you're tuning to 25 hz, do you have a plan to highpass the subs to protect them from the sub 20 hz stuff found in movies ( a lot of plate amps can do this now, and so can the iNuke)? The nice thing about the big ported subs tuned to 14 - 15 hz, is there seems to be a lot more protection against bottoming the driver.

    Finally, here is my big thought of the day. Having packed up and stored all the Khans and my big sub this past weekend, Jon is definitely onto something with his modular concept. Even the my "little" In-Khans were darn heavy to move around. My sub darn near killed my wife while trying to move it up 5 steps. I think Jon might be on the right track with his Modula concept of small monitor on top and bass bin on bottom. You may want to consider two boxes stacked on top of each other, even if they look exactly like your model when done. It will make construction easier and your life moving them around much much easier. And, if you did to boxes, there is no reason the lower box couldn't be slightly bigger and curvier to accommodate a 10" or 12" sub. ... It is, after all, "all about the bass."
    - Ryan

    CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
    CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
    CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

    Comment

    • jkjkaufm
      Junior Member
      • Aug 2012
      • 8

      #3
      Hi Ryan, thanks for the quick response! As I said I appriecate any and all input

      In regards to the baffle construction I should probably include the inspiration for the cabinet construction as well.



      The idea with the in set front baffle is that it will be easily removable and provide excellent access to all internal components should anything need to be repaired/changed. I considered removing the radius on the front edge and making a smooth transition to the baffle but I am afraid that the MDF wont be able to hold the "knife" edge and that it will chip during construction.

      The binding post/port locations will be on the back of the cabinet. I haven't finished the model yet but I will cut out flat area's so that the full wrap around curve is only at the top and bottom. It will be very similar to the build I am using as inspiration.

      I know what you mean about only being able to fit a 8" sub in the base. I tossed around many ideas, and many driver alternatives to try and fit something larger in. I know it is just personal preference but I really like the look of one continous tower with a bunch of drivers on the front and as a result I am limited to what can fit in a 9" wide baffle. If in the future I find that I just need more output I'm not against adding another standalone sub. Besides I figure if 2 are good 3 must be better

      My reference for the sub design is this thread on the PE forum:

      Want a second or third opinion about your speaker cabinet design or other audio related problem? Post your question or comment on the Technical Discussion Board. Hundreds of technicians, engineers, and hobbyists, nationwide read and discuss electronics related questions each week. We welcome your participation


      I have modeled it with my modified volume and I think it should still work. It looks like it will max out at ~100 dB. I hadn't thought to check what the NeoD will do at 100 Hz yet, I will have to refer back to the intro thread for that (thanks for pointing that out). Once the model is finalized I will get an accurate internal volume and verify that it is still what I think it should be. I do all of my solid modelling in Inventor so it is really easily to figure out final volumes

      In the fall I built a four nice chipamps from a design over at DIYAudio, and I figure those coupled with a miniDSP should be perfect to power the mains. I'm hoping that my reciever should be fine to power the center channel.

      I have thought about the final weight of the mains during the design process, and you're right they are going to be heavy. Each one of those cnc'd ribs is 1" thick MDF and my current sketch has them at 50" tall. I haven't calculated a projected weight yet mostly because I don't want to know the answer I'm still young so I think I should be able to handle them, but we'll see if I regret being so stubborn about the aesthetics later on.

      Thanks,
      Jeff

      Comment

      • kevinm
        Senior Member
        • Jun 2013
        • 417

        #4
        Man, those are beautiful!

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15261

          #5
          The design as drawn should have no problem with the baffle width, the way it's set into the enclosure. Full steam ahead.

          The RS210H is pretty decent, but have you considered rustling up some SW223BD01/2 Wavecor's instead? Give it a thought... the RS will be cheaper, of course. The Wavecor models up very well with a single SS26W PR, but that's too big for your baffle- I'd consider looking at dual 8" PR's though, if you can make the cab a little higher with more LF volume.

          Overall, this looks really sweet! :T

          I have been pondering revisiting the crossover for this one, because I've got the parts to build one for my GF, and I think a bit of Ardent and NatlieP magic might be applicable. What's your build timetable? Can you hold off a while on buying the crossover parts?
          the AudioWorx
          Natalie P
          M8ta
          Modula Neo DCC
          Modula MT XE
          Modula Xtreme
          Isiris
          Wavecor Ardent

          SMJ
          Minerva Monitor
          Calliope
          Ardent D

          In Development...
          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
          Obi-Wan
          Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
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          Natalie P Ultra
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          Janus BP1 Sub


          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

          Comment

          • jkjkaufm
            Junior Member
            • Aug 2012
            • 8

            #6
            Hi Kevin, Thanks! They have been a work in progress for a long time and I'm really pleased with the progress so far.

            Hi Jon, I was really hoping you'd say that. I had managed to convince myself that baffle wouldn't be an issue, but now I can move forward with getting the design quoted

            I had considered the SW223BD01/2 Wavecor's, especially after all the praise from the Wavecor Ardent builds, however I was worried about overall diameter. The spec sheet states the SW223BD01/2 is 223.5mm dia. with the baffle being 228.6mm (9") that only leaves 5.1mm left or less than an 1/8" each side to support the driver. The RSS210 is only 213mm dia. so there is a fair bit more material to play with. Could you (or anyone else with the SW223BD's) have measure the overall frame diameter? If the spec sheet is being conservative then I'd definitely be willing to explore that option more.

            I'm going to be hopefully starting the cabinets soon, but I haven't bought any of the crossover components yet. If you are planning on working some of your crossover magic then I would definitely be willing to wait and be a guinea pig Besides I've been planning these for almost two years now so I'm game to wait to get the most out of them that I can.

            Now that I have the seal of approval I will finish up the model and post a few new shots of it

            Thanks,
            Jeff

            Comment

            • ---k---
              Ultra Senior Member
              • Nov 2005
              • 5202

              #7
              Originally posted by jkjkaufm
              ) I'm still young so I think I should be able to handle them, but we'll see if I regret being so stubborn about the aesthetics later on.

              Thanks,
              Jeff
              Did he just call me OLD??? 8O I think I'm offended. And, I'm probably only 3/4 Jon's age.
              Please have someone take video of you moving those things around. I look forward to seeing it.

              The other problem beside the weight, and it kind of showed up in the thread you linked to, with curved sides you don't have good hand holds. One of the things I swore previously I would do from now on with subs is to put handles on them! Actually this weekend I swore all future subs would be sonotubes and all speakers would be separate the T&M from the Ws. ...



              No worries. My comments we're more just comments to think about. Your plan sounds solid. You got supreme leader's approval!

              But, I think if you come around and realize that I am right to separate the sub from the main, you could do two boxes exactly like you show. Just put small spikes on the main and set it on top of the lower all lined up pretty so you just have an inch gap between, but otherwise seamless. Hell, you could even skip the spikes and bolt the top and bottom together once they are set in place and then put the baffle on. The only way to tell might be a fine line in the veneer or whatever.
              - Ryan

              CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
              CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
              CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

              Comment

              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15261

                #8
                Originally posted by ---k---
                Did he just call me OLD??? 8O I think I'm offended. And, I'm probably only 3/4 Jon's age.
                Please have someone take video of you moving those things around. I look forward to seeing it.

                The other problem beside the weight, and it kind of showed up in the thread you linked to, with curved sides you don't have good hand holds. One of the things I swore previously I would do from now on with subs is to put handles on them! Actually this weekend I swore all future subs would be sonotubes and all speakers would be separate the T&M from the Ws. ...



                No worries. My comments we're more just comments to think about. Your plan sounds solid. You got supreme leader's approval!

                But, I think if you come around and realize that I am right to separate the sub from the main, you could do two boxes exactly like you show. Just put small spikes on the main and set it on top of the lower all lined up pretty so you just have an inch gap between, but otherwise seamless. Hell, you could even skip the spikes and bolt the top and bottom together once they are set in place and then put the baffle on. The only way to tell might be a fine line in the veneer or whatever.
                Good thinking, Ryan- reminds me of what I'm planning on my next crazy build!

                With regards to the SW223, if you can postpone routing the subwoofer panel until the cabinet is assembled, no worries I think. But actually, If you have a 1" or deeper panel, even routing the full driver rebate, with just 9", shouldn't be a problem IF you're using a stronger material like LBL. Think of how nice your front baffles would look if cut form the 11-3/4" LBL panels from Woodworkers source:


                Click image for larger version

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                Just a suggestion....
                Last edited by theSven; 01 May 2023, 17:42 Monday. Reason: Update image location
                the AudioWorx
                Natalie P
                M8ta
                Modula Neo DCC
                Modula MT XE
                Modula Xtreme
                Isiris
                Wavecor Ardent

                SMJ
                Minerva Monitor
                Calliope
                Ardent D

                In Development...
                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                Obi-Wan
                Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                Modula PWB
                Calliope CC Supreme
                Natalie P Ultra
                Natalie P Supreme
                Janus BP1 Sub


                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                Comment

                • jkjkaufm
                  Junior Member
                  • Aug 2012
                  • 8

                  #9
                  Did he just call me OLD??? I think I'm offended. And, I'm probably only 3/4 Jon's age.
                  Please have someone take video of you moving those things around. I look forward to seeing it.
                  Haha, oh my only 2 posts in and I've already offended someone

                  Good point about the handles, I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps I should try and build some in or maybe just leave threaded holes so they can be attached, this will require some more thought....

                  As I said I appreciate the input, maybe if I have a spare moment I will try and adjust the model to represent two separate cabinets of equal footprint. The upside to doing it now is that changes to a 3D model are cheap

                  With regards to the SW223, if you can postpone routing the subwoofer panel until the cabinet is assembled, no worries I think. But actually, If you have a 1" or deeper panel, even routing the full driver rebate, with just 9", shouldn't be a problem IF you're using a stronger material like LBL. Think of how nice your front baffles would look if cut form the 11-3/4" LBL panels from Woodworkers source:
                  I'll have to look into sources of LBL locally. With being located in Canada I'm always worried about shipping things crossborder but the added strength would be helpful.

                  It looks like the planning continues haha.

                  Comment

                  • Steve Manning
                    Moderator
                    • Dec 2006
                    • 1879

                    #10
                    Jeff, I built Jon's Modula MTM with a cross section very similar to what you have in mind ......

                    Click image for larger version  Name:	Outlined Frame 1a.jpg Views:	1 Size:	36.9 KB ID:	859516

                    I'm not sure how it compares to Jon's original, but I can say it sounded great when I was done. Here's the link if your interested .......

                    Well I had planned on waiting until I had everything finished before I posted the results, but it seems folks like to tell there stories as they go on this forum, so I figured I‘d do the same. About a year ago, I sent some emails back and forth with Jon Marsh asking him about his Modula MTM design and ended up deciding to build


                    Steve
                    Last edited by theSven; 01 May 2023, 17:43 Monday. Reason: Update htguide url
                    Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                    WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                    Comment

                    • jkjkaufm
                      Junior Member
                      • Aug 2012
                      • 8

                      #11
                      Hi Steve, Those look amazing

                      I can't believe that I hadn't stumbled across your thread while I was researching my build, but I'm glad I've seen it now. It's always reassuring when you're not pioneering a construction technique.

                      Jeff

                      Comment

                      • Steve Manning
                        Moderator
                        • Dec 2006
                        • 1879

                        #12
                        Originally posted by jkjkaufm
                        Hi Steve, Those look amazing

                        I can't believe that I hadn't stumbled across your thread while I was researching my build, but I'm glad I've seen it now. It's always reassuring when you're not pioneering a construction technique.

                        Jeff

                        Thanks Jeff ....... I was pleased with how they turned out, though I was taught a lesson or two along the way and would certainly go at the build a little differently if I did it again. Ryan had some good suggestions about the cnc work that I would consider doing myself.

                        Steve
                        Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                        WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                        Comment

                        • jkjkaufm
                          Junior Member
                          • Aug 2012
                          • 8

                          #13
                          So I've revised the model to reflect some of the suggestions above. Upon further thought I have opted to split the tower into two sections as per Ryan's suggestion. I finally calculated the weight of the cabinet and each tower was going to weigh ~45kg!! and that is not including drivers or crossovers. I think splitting that weight in half will probably be better in the long run . The towers would be separated with spikes (not modeled)

                          Image not available Image not available

                          I also revised the sub cabinet and modeled it with a Wavecor SW223BD and the corresponding Wavecor PR. I've attached an output from Unibox to show the response. I've never really designed around a PR before though, so I would appreciate a double to check to make sure I haven't made any gross mistakes . I haven't settled on switching to the Wavecor's yet as it would mean an additional $500 in components, however I am already so far into this that I'm thinking why go halfway now.

                          Image not available

                          Anyway let me know what you guys think

                          Thanks,
                          Jeff
                          Last edited by theSven; 01 May 2023, 17:48 Monday. Reason: Update image location

                          Comment

                          • BobEllis
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Dec 2005
                            • 1609

                            #14
                            Originally posted by jkjkaufm
                            So...

                            I haven't settled on switching to the Wavecor's yet as it would mean an additional $500 in components, however I am already so far into this that I'm thinking why go halfway now.
                            I know the feeling all to well. It's really tough to stop when you are putting so much effort into the cabinets. Nice looking design, Wavecor or not, I think it will be killer.

                            Comment

                            • ---k---
                              Ultra Senior Member
                              • Nov 2005
                              • 5202

                              #15
                              I like the direction you're taking the models. 45 kg pounds for just the boxes is probably about right. I think my Khans on the scale once were 122 lbs.

                              It's good to see someone using Unibox and making models!

                              I started the post below before I remembered that these were intended to be subwoofers for music and HT, not just 2-channel audio. The boxes are so pretty I forgot. You don't get that pretty of boxes from the HT guys. That sort of changes my thoughts. Boom is fun for movies.

                              I know why Jon is in love with the Wavecore these days, but I think if you're spending that type of money the order of priority should be: tweeter, midrange, and woofer, and lastly subwoofer. You're upside down. Just my opinion. It will be interesting to see how his Utilimax testing goes. I'm interested in seeing the distortion for it. It would be great if we could see it versus an RS driver at high levels (hint hint). We often don't get discussion of distortion with subwoofers.


                              ---


                              With room boundary loading, I think you're going to get some boom. Here is a post Jon did about boundary loading:

                              DIY (Do it yourself): Cabinetry, speakers, subwoofers, crossovers, measurements. Jon and Thomas have probably designed and built as many speakers as any non-professionals. Who are we kidding? They are pros, they just don't do it for a living. This has got to be one of the most advanced places on the net to talk speaker building, period.



                              I thought they were using the Wavecore sealed in the Ardent Wavecore Ed. and part of the reason was because it did so well in a small sealed box.

                              So in terms of laminating different materials I came up with this: (filedata/fetch?id=933726&d=1682894249) Blue is hardboard, green is bamboo, red is birch, and MDF color is 3/4" MDF, pink is 1/2". Some of the 3/4" MDF can be swapped with birch I guess. Any thoughts? Let me know If I should start a new


                              Originally posted by JonMarsh
                              Some modeling verification in Unibox:

                              Base model and response; single unit parameters verified from input data:

                              Click image for larger version  Name:	SW223BD01-Unibox_Single_zps114fc024.png Views:	3 Size:	258.8 KB ID:	933734

                              This is the Unibox predicted anechoic response (no boundaries) for dual drivers in 40L, fully stuffed, with 100W input, for one cabinet. With boundary effects this will be lifted 6 dB typical below 40 Hz.


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                              Just seeing if using the supplied vendor parameters results in a model that agrees for all the red items in Unibox is a pretty good sanity check on the vendor supplied T/S info; you might be surprised how often that doesn't work out...

                              Last, the calculated step response, which sure looks nice compared with ported alignments...

                              Click image for larger version  Name:	SW223BD01StepResponse_zpsaeab669b.png Views:	4 Size:	63.0 KB ID:	933736


                              Jon has a post I've seen him post several times that shows his preferred approach to ported box models. I can't finding it right now. You can see some of it in the NatP model:





                              I'm sure Jon will chime in here eventually.
                              Last edited by theSven; 01 May 2023, 17:47 Monday. Reason: Update htguide url
                              - Ryan

                              CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                              CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                              CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                              Comment

                              • ---k---
                                Ultra Senior Member
                                • Nov 2005
                                • 5202

                                #16
                                Oh and one more thing about the laminated construction. I've never done it, but I can imagine lining all the layers up just right would be a pain. I think I read somewhere once that a guy had alignment holes drilled at each corner in each layer that an alignment rod could be pounded down through. With CNC, alignment holes should be easy. Of course, the diameter tolerances have to be pretty tight or you're no better off. I don't think this is a completed thought. Something to ponder. Maybe Steve's thread or someone else has solved the problem.
                                - Ryan

                                CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                Comment

                                • Steve Manning
                                  Moderator
                                  • Dec 2006
                                  • 1879

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by ---k---
                                  Oh and one more thing about the laminated construction. I've never done it, but I can imagine lining all the layers up just right would be a pain. I think I read somewhere once that a guy had alignment holes drilled at each corner in each layer that an alignment rod could be pounded down through. With CNC, alignment holes should be easy. Of course, the diameter tolerances have to be pretty tight or you're no better off. I don't think this is a completed thought. Something to ponder. Maybe Steve's thread or someone else has solved the problem.

                                  Your right Ryan, alignment is a pain and I did use four alignment/clamping rods during stack up and there was plenty of sanding to do when everything was glued up. I did not use CNC, all of my layers were cut by hand using a templete ..... GO CNC, TRUST ME ....... but me being rather OCD, things still lined up very well. It just doesn't take much a misalignment between layers for the eye and fingers to notice.

                                  Steve
                                  Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                  WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                  Comment

                                  • JonMarsh
                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 15261

                                    #18
                                    The fastest easiest setup for the SW223BD01/2 is with the SS26w PR in 30 liters, just with the stock weight:


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                                    But for what you're doing, this is an alignment I'd suggest- for the 223BD01 PR; you need to add weight, 50g over the stock unloaded configuration. Optimum volume about 25-25L net, subtracting for drivers, including PR.


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                                    This is better damped at the cutoff, (better step response) and with reasonable placement and small LF boundary lift, should be subjectively flat to almost 20 Hz. And it's almost half the size... 30L versus 50L. Just consider it. In 60L you could put two SW223BD02 and two PR's. that would rock....
                                    Last edited by theSven; 01 May 2023, 17:47 Monday. Reason: Update image location
                                    the AudioWorx
                                    Natalie P
                                    M8ta
                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                    Modula MT XE
                                    Modula Xtreme
                                    Isiris
                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                    SMJ
                                    Minerva Monitor
                                    Calliope
                                    Ardent D

                                    In Development...
                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                    Obi-Wan
                                    Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                    Modula PWB
                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                    Comment

                                    • jkjkaufm
                                      Junior Member
                                      • Aug 2012
                                      • 8

                                      #19
                                      I know the feeling all to well. It's really tough to stop when you are putting so much effort into the cabinets. Nice looking design, Wavecor or not, I think it will be killer.
                                      Thanks Bob, I've been following your build as well It looks like it is going to be an interesting one

                                      It's good to see someone using Unibox and making models!

                                      I started the post below before I remembered that these were intended to be subwoofers for music and HT, not just 2-channel audio. The boxes are so pretty I forgot. You don't get that pretty of boxes from the HT guys. That sort of changes my thoughts. Boom is fun for movies.

                                      I know why Jon is in love with the Wavecore these days, but I think if you're spending that type of money the order of priority should be: tweeter, midrange, and woofer, and lastly subwoofer.
                                      Thanks Ryan, I think it is kinda in my nature. At my day job I'm an engineer and I can't just build something because someone else has done it that way. I like to have verified the model/design and at least tried to understand the underlying concepts to make sure I agree with everything. As a result though the planning stage of any of my projects take alot longer than I anticipate

                                      I also agree with the money output and driver priorities. I've been wrestling with the choice for sub driver from the beginning, I thought I had finalized everything (considering I bought the RSS210) but it seems like there are always new choices to evaluate. Fortunately the sub cabinent is designed in such a way it is super easy to change the front baffle and by extension the driver used.

                                      In between house shopping this weekend I came across the Dayton 8" PR. I think I am going to try and model it with the RSS210 that I already have and see what sort of results I can achieve.

                                      Thanks for the linked posts, once I have a chance to read through them I think they will add alot of insight into how to design around a vented/PR enclosure.

                                      Your right Ryan, alignment is a pain and I did use four alignment/clamping rods during stack up and there was plenty of sanding to do when everything was glued up. I did not use CNC, all of my layers were cut by hand using a templete ..... GO CNC, TRUST ME ....... but me being rather OCD, things still lined up very well. It just doesn't take much a misalignment between layers for the eye and fingers to notice.
                                      Hi Steve, I hear you and don't worry I wasn't considering anything other than CNC I already have reached out to some local shops to see what prices are like.

                                      This is better damped at the cutoff, (better step response) and with reasonable placement and small LF boundary lift, should be subjectively flat to almost 20 Hz. And it's almost half the size... 30L versus 50L. Just consider it. In 60L you could put two SW223BD02 and two PR's. that would rock....
                                      Hi John, thanks for the quick design verification and the insight into your process. As I mentioned I think I am going to play around with the RSS210HF and a PR and see what I can come up with. I'll probably check it with both the Wavecor PR and the much more wallet friendly Dayton version. Have you ever had any experience with this part? I've tried looking up the spec sheet but it definitely doesn't provide as much info as the Wavecor.

                                      The volume of the sub cabinet is kinda dictated by the ideal height of the upper cabinet. I can definitely add a baffle to reduce volume but I have the full 50L to play with so I figured I'd start there.

                                      I'm sure two SW223BD02's would be amazing, but if I was going that route I think I would just go all out and build the Wavecor Ardents. In fact I am considering that in the future. I'm currently in the process of buying a new house as well and if space/GF allows I may build a music only system later. Of course that is dependent on how expensive a house my GF decides on haha

                                      Comment

                                      • JonMarsh
                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                        • Aug 2000
                                        • 15261

                                        #20
                                        I'll check out the 8" Dayton PR and 210 combination. I've been planning to analyze that driver and the RS265 for possible application to the line array or bass modules, it's on the list, but I haven't gotten there yet.

                                        I've been extremely pleased with the distortion and sonics of the SW223 in the Wavecor Ardent, which is why that has received my attention first. But I will be doing a "paper" examination and comparison, and we'll see how that models. Unfortunately, there can be a lot of variation in the completeness of specification for PR, to allow accurate modeling- the Wavecor and Scanspeak parts are well specified. I'll see how things look on the Dayton- without complete specs, it's really hit or miss what you wind up with. IF Dayton has one specific setup recommended and modeled or measured with known characteristics, then of course that can be used, but without good part data, it would be hard to further optimize for a different set of trade-offs.
                                        the AudioWorx
                                        Natalie P
                                        M8ta
                                        Modula Neo DCC
                                        Modula MT XE
                                        Modula Xtreme
                                        Isiris
                                        Wavecor Ardent

                                        SMJ
                                        Minerva Monitor
                                        Calliope
                                        Ardent D

                                        In Development...
                                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                        Obi-Wan
                                        Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                        Modula PWB
                                        Calliope CC Supreme
                                        Natalie P Ultra
                                        Natalie P Supreme
                                        Janus BP1 Sub


                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                        Comment

                                        • JonMarsh
                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                          • Aug 2000
                                          • 15261

                                          #21
                                          I just took a look at the Dayton version, the SD-215-PR, and I have to say it's specs are somewhat incomplete to do easy modeling in Unibox. The Seas I'm working with is better in that respect, though not better in terms of Xmax. Of more concern is the 9mm Xmax, which is not what I would call a subwoofer class PR. It doesn't seem to be specifically made to work with the HS210. I will go ahead and attempt to model it, but let's keep expectations reasonable... Dayton doesn't seem to have a real focus on PR's.


                                          I'd say that combining the HS210 with the Wavecor PR might be a better development path, performance wise. I'll take a look at it...
                                          the AudioWorx
                                          Natalie P
                                          M8ta
                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                          Modula MT XE
                                          Modula Xtreme
                                          Isiris
                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                          SMJ
                                          Minerva Monitor
                                          Calliope
                                          Ardent D

                                          In Development...
                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                          Obi-Wan
                                          Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                          Modula PWB
                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                          Comment

                                          • ---k---
                                            Ultra Senior Member
                                            • Nov 2005
                                            • 5202

                                            #22
                                            This would be so much easier if you would just make the base a hair wider so it could fit a 10" Utilmax in. :P
                                            - Ryan

                                            CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                            CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                            CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                            Comment

                                            • JonMarsh
                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 15261

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by ---k---
                                              This would be so much easier if you would just make the base a hair wider so it could fit a 10" Utilmax in. :P
                                              Or 10" SS PR's... or RS265 subwoofer-
                                              the AudioWorx
                                              Natalie P
                                              M8ta
                                              Modula Neo DCC
                                              Modula MT XE
                                              Modula Xtreme
                                              Isiris
                                              Wavecor Ardent

                                              SMJ
                                              Minerva Monitor
                                              Calliope
                                              Ardent D

                                              In Development...
                                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                              Obi-Wan
                                              Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                              Modula PWB
                                              Calliope CC Supreme
                                              Natalie P Ultra
                                              Natalie P Supreme
                                              Janus BP1 Sub


                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                              Comment

                                              • Steve Manning
                                                Moderator
                                                • Dec 2006
                                                • 1879

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                Or 10" SS PR's... or RS265 subwoofer-
                                                Sounds like you like the SS PR With what little of learned so far, it looked pretty nice when I ran some graphs on a couple of Peerles drivers as well.
                                                Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                                WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                                Comment

                                                • JonMarsh
                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                  • 15261

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Steve Manning
                                                  Sounds like you like the SS PR With what little of learned so far, it looked pretty nice when I ran some graphs on a couple of Peerles drivers as well.
                                                  It is in the sweet spot, parameter wise. Someone either knew what they were doing, or we just think alike in terms of application preferences! :T
                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                  Natalie P
                                                  M8ta
                                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                                  Modula MT XE
                                                  Modula Xtreme
                                                  Isiris
                                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                                  SMJ
                                                  Minerva Monitor
                                                  Calliope
                                                  Ardent D

                                                  In Development...
                                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                  Obi-Wan
                                                  Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                  Modula PWB
                                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Steve Manning
                                                    Moderator
                                                    • Dec 2006
                                                    • 1879

                                                    #26
                                                    Jon I noticed there were several versions of the RSS265, did you have a specific one in mind?
                                                    Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                                    WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                                    Comment

                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                      • 15261

                                                      #27
                                                      Well, the HO likely has the T/S parameters most suitable, but I'm going to model and compare them all.
                                                      the AudioWorx
                                                      Natalie P
                                                      M8ta
                                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                                      Modula MT XE
                                                      Modula Xtreme
                                                      Isiris
                                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                                      SMJ
                                                      Minerva Monitor
                                                      Calliope
                                                      Ardent D

                                                      In Development...
                                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                      Obi-Wan
                                                      Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                      Modula PWB
                                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                      Comment

                                                      • jkjkaufm
                                                        Junior Member
                                                        • Aug 2012
                                                        • 8

                                                        #28
                                                        I just took a look at the Dayton version, the SD-215-PR, and I have to say it's specs are somewhat incomplete to do easy modeling in Unibox. The Seas I'm working with is better in that respect, though not better in terms of Xmax. Of more concern is the 9mm Xmax, which is not what I would call a subwoofer class PR. It doesn't seem to be specifically made to work with the HS210. I will go ahead and attempt to model it, but let's keep expectations reasonable... Dayton doesn't seem to have a real focus on PR's.


                                                        I'd say that combining the HS210 with the Wavecor PR might be a better development path, performance wise. I'll take a look at it...
                                                        Hi John, you confirmed what I was already thinking. It looked like there was not enough info to fully model that PR and in the end I think this is a case of you get what you pay for. I'm hoping to have a chance this evening to model the RSS210 with the Wavecor PR. It will be interesting to see how mine compares against yours, hopefully I can get similar answer

                                                        I may be open to considering a bigger driver as well. I just got my quotes back for the CNC work on the cabinets and I'm looking at ~$1000CAD for cutting and materials. I kinda feared that it might be that expensive but needless to say it is going to slow down development a bit. As a result I want to make sure that I get this right the first time so I don't feel the need to change things as soon as they are finished

                                                        I'm going to build a new model of the sub cabinet with a baffle width suitable for a UM10 or RSS265 and see how it looks aesthetically speaking. A nice side effect is that I will have an accurate volume of the new cabinets to feed back into Unibox. While I am going through the excerise of looking at new/bigger subs are there any others in a similar price/value range that you guys would suggest??

                                                        Thanks,
                                                        Jeff

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Steve Manning
                                                          Moderator
                                                          • Dec 2006
                                                          • 1879

                                                          #29
                                                          Hey Jeff ...... something to keep in the back of your mind with your build and that's how you attach your baffle. I recommend that it float with respect to the cabinet rather than hard bonding to the main cabinet. The reason why ............ http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-...-array-12.html. Jon referenced this build in hid IDS-25 Clone thread. I had the same thing happen to me on my tanslam build, though not as bad and the reason being, the layers were constrained and not allowed to move. This guy did it with his bolts, mine by pegging and gluing the baffle and back in place. Figured I'd pass the hard won lesson along.

                                                          Steve
                                                          Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                                          WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                                          Comment

                                                          • knowledgebass
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • May 2013
                                                            • 159

                                                            #30
                                                            I think another contributing factor in that failure is he seems to have his finish applied to the outside but not the inside. Even on my 9" wide Ansonica baffles, the baffle moved as much as 4mm (~1/4") before I had my box assembled (~3 months), enough that I had to redo my woofer routing and redrill the driver holes. If I were to do it again I would have slathered that sucker in shellac at each step. When I assembled the box I sealed the exposed plys on the inside (I used the glue I was using which was a urea formeldahyde wood glue - comes as a powder, hard as plastic and water resistant when cured) and my finish schedule on the outside. I used no rods dowels. For sure the rods would have been a contributing factor as he states they may have prevented some locations along the height from moving at all, but sealing both sides of the lamination would reduce the total delta movement of the laminations in the first place IME. I don't think you can ever prevent the wood from moving completely, but if you can slow down the humidity transfer to and from the wood with a seal/finish, then you can reduce the total movement. Translaminated plywood appears to behave a lot like solid wood so as Steve suggested, a floating baffle would be a good idea.

                                                            I bookmarked that build so I can go back and read it, looks well done!

                                                            Comment

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