Wavecor Ardent Journal - the first Builds

[JonMarsh]

Well I got Stereo, they are fantastic :B

These Wavecor's are potent, they lay waste too my old RS225 based three ways i last had down stairs. Jon & Ben check out Patrica Barber's " To rich for my blood", great base attach. Still some work to do taming the grill felt and putting the room back together, Jon I'm so happy you went for these. :T:T:T

Beautiful looking setup, glad to see you up and running! They look fantastic! :T I really like your cherry finish in that room! I'll include this picture, too.

Which album of hers is that cut on? I have several of her CD's, but none ripped yet- and some of her stuff is on HD Tracks (the easy way these days for me with the music server). Speaking of music servers, the high power 24V linear supply finally arrived from the UK this Monday, so another project for the holidays is getting the second LPFRS running with that linear supply, and setting up the Mutec MC3+ FINALLY, with it's auto sample rate tracking. (DCD-8 must be set manually to the incoming sample rate).

[5th element]

Thanks 5th.
I agree with you, When you add a small sub to the Modula's they are very potent. I was a little worried playing just one Ardent and one Modula, not big base. With 2 a whole new story. Wish more builders could reach for these they are very nice and well worth the effort.

I really wish I could get to hear them!

[Steve Manning]

Beautiful job not only on the speakers but the whole setup. I'm with Jon the cherry is a very nice look, I never really appreciated the natural look of it until I started working with it myself. All three of you have some very nice looking cabinets out of this project. :T

[dar47]

Which album of hers is that cut on?

Thanks for the kind words. That must be tough waiting for time to get all your planned gear in the chain, hope it works out. That song was from Original Master Recordings Cafe Blue. Last third of the song drums and symbols are great. Most of my bad recordings that I have played so far, are ruthlessly revealed so much I have to check with a good one just to ease my mind that all is good. haha. I'm not big on sound superlatives but so far I get the "holographic large sound stage thing, best sound in my room and I'm all smiles! I really think the 6640 is a nice step up from the 6600 and well worth it. Wondering how much the the MR's are playing their part. Should be fun tomorrow when Ben gets in and we spark up the IB.:B.

[dar47]

Beautiful job not only on the speakers but the whole setup. I'm with Jon the cherry is a very nice look, I never really appreciated the natural look of it until I started working with it myself. All three of you have some very nice looking cabinets out of this project. :T

Thanks Steve, just started working with cherry the last ten year or so and I agree if stay off the stain and use something like the conversion varnish on these with a lot of UV blockers it can really pop the grain and provide interesting warmth to your room. I guess I have settled on the cherry, maple and birch.

[kevinm]

Thanks, Kevin. Yes 14awg. Learned that from the master doing the Modula MK2 build.

Perfect. Thanks! And BEAUTIFUL speakers by the way.

[Steve Manning]

Thanks Steve, just started working with cherry the last ten year or so and I agree if stay off the stain and use something like the conversion varnish on these with a lot of UV blockers it can really pop the grain and provide interesting warmth to your room. I guess I have settled on the cherry, maple and birch.

I tried a water borne finish for the for the first time on a cherry remote table ...... it does not yellow at all but really pops the grain well (almost three dimensional) and is very easy to work with and clean up.

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for the kind words. That must be tough waiting for time to get all your planned gear in the chain, hope it works out. That song was from Original Master Recordings Cafe Blue. Last third of the song drums and symbols are great. Most of my bad recordings that I have played so far, are ruthlessly revealed so much I have to check with a good one just to ease my mind that all is good. haha. I'm not big on sound superlatives but so far I get the "holographic large sound stage thing, best sound in my room and I'm all smiles! I really think the 6640 is a nice step up from the 6600 and well worth it. Wondering how much the the MR's are playing their part. Should be fun tomorrow when Ben gets in and we spark up the IB.:B.

Intersting... I checked at HD tracks, only a 44.1/16 version is available. I looked into more history regarding the recording, and it was originally recorded on a 32 track Otari, 48kHz/16. There have been analog mix downs created on to tape, which in turn have been A/D (by Doug Sax) at 24/192, and then converted to DSD... you understand, being an engineer, I'm a little skeptical of the merit of a DSD release (Acoustic Sounds) made this way from original 48/16 recording. Oh well.... you know, there's even a "High Resolution" blue ray out of this... I should just go find my CD, or maybe I'll download it from HD Tracks straight to FLAC to save myself the time and trouble! :W

[JonMarsh]

Well, I'm listening to the album now via VOX on my Macbook Pro at the lab in Cupertino. Sounds pretty nice though my B&W P5 headphones; looking forward to loading it into the system over the holidays!

[JonMarsh]

In spite of being "just" 44.1/16, there are some very good cuts on this album with high levels of natural detail on the percussion instruments- "Nardis" is the one I just heard that particularly caught my attention. Not a just a bass thing, but overall detail on the drum kit.

[Johnloudb]

I heard a Patricia Barber song at Music Lovers, in Berkley CA two years ago. My lady friend at the time, a non audiophile, got all excited about the finger snapping on that cut, heard through the Wilson Audio, Sasha Loudspeaker. It sounded so real, she was there! I can't say if it was 16 or 24 bit though. But I have some CD's that do sound amazing. The amplification was a Charles Hansen circuit as well, but not Arye gear.

[wkhanna]

I don't have the HDtracks version of 'Cafe Blue', but this is my FLAC conversion of my redbook SeeDee I am listing to now:


foobar2000 1.1.6 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2014-12-20 12:56:35

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Patricia Barber / Café Blue
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR14 -0.78 dB -19.34 dB 5:25 01-What A Shame
DR14 -0.04 dB -18.46 dB 6:59 02-Mourning Grace
DR13 -3.92 dB -21.66 dB 4:40 03-The Thrill Is Gone
DR13 -3.10 dB -23.05 dB 4:28 04-Romanesque
DR17 -0.10 dB -20.09 dB 5:08 05-Yellow Car III
DR15 -4.11 dB -22.45 dB 0:58 06-Wood is a Pleasant Thing to Think About
DR13 -6.97 dB -23.90 dB 5:03 07-Inchworm
DR18 -1.36 dB -24.19 dB 5:21 08-Ode To Billy Joe
DR12 -0.07 dB -16.43 dB 7:59 09-Too Rich for my Blood
DR18 -0.10 dB -22.92 dB 4:29 10-A Taste Of Honey
DR15 -0.01 dB -19.87 dB 9:02 11-Nardis
DR20 -0.27 dB -23.77 dB 3:23 12-Manha De Carnaval
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 12
Official DR value: DR15

Samplerate: 44100 Hz
Channels: 2
Bits per sample: 16
Bitrate: 666 kbps
Codec: FLAC
================================================== ==============================

[dar47]

Ya not high res but still sounds great. John that finger snapping on the Ardents sounds great too.:B

Had some time to play with the IB. Weird feeling when you go in the back room when playing 80db or more, kind of makes you feel nauseous a little. It goes low and flexes the door between the rooms a lot. I'm going to have to play with some gasket to seal it better but the force canceling arrangement for the manifold works well and my beef up framing seems adequate. I took some left over fiber fill from the Ardent build and stuffed some socks to plug the 2 cable pass through holes and that works great. Going to need some more time to tune for both music and theater but so far I'm liking crossing the Ardents at 40hrz for music. Ben is all smiles paying with the IB.

Did some carving of the grill felt. Basically measure quick sweeps at 1 meter with grill off, then grill on no felt and then with grill and felt. Had to open the felt up quite a bit to keep the response close to grill on no felt. The felt smooths between 2k and 10k. Couldn't find any soft wool like Jon has but I'm pretty happy with this result for now.

Showing 1/6 smoothing. Better plots later True RTA not the best for plots.

Image not available

Have to wait a few days now before I can do some more measuring as we here are having an early Christmas dinner so Ben can head back to Cal.

[JonMarsh]

IS this in an RTA mode or something more like a gated MLS or swept sine measurement? RTA will be influenced much more by room, and won't reflect the true speaker response. Can you run ARTA in demo mode? Or REW?

Well, I find myself ill prepared for the Holidays- I know that somewhere at home I've got quite a few holiday CDs, but all that's loaded on the server is "A Charlie Brown Christmas" and Nate King Cole. Sounds pretty good, though, pretty dang good, in fact! :T

Hope you and Ben and everyone else has a great Christmas!







Update: searched Christmas Genre and found two more, including Al DiMeola's "Winter Nights" - I'd forgotten how nice that one is-

[JonMarsh]

From the development of the Salk Soundscape, their top of the line model:

The midrange was a bit more challenging. We started by purchasing samples of ALL of the finest high-end midrange drivers we could get our hands on. We even had some custom built to see if we could improve upon those that were currently available. We tested them, one by one, for accuracy, power handling, dispersion and a other variables.We narrowed down the possibilities and set out to design cabinets to test the remaining drivers as full-blown prototypes we could A/B against one another. It took an entire year of working with multiple midrange drivers until we settled on an Accuton midrange. In the end, no other driver came close.

The one they're using is the C79.

[wkhanna]

We heard some of the Salk offerings at this year's Capital Audiofest.

Review from Scot (aka the Part Time Audiophile)

I will add my personal impressions simply by stating that proper implementation is vital regardless of the components.
Their under- $3k offerings had the most value, according to this old curmudgeon's ears.

[Wayman]

That's quite a compliment on the C79. I'm losing the argument with myself over using cheaper x-over parts. Hard to justify when the such care was taken to get the most out of these drivers.

Cheers, Wayne

[dar47]

Hope all had a great Christmas and will have a great new year. A little sad to start for me as I just put my daughter on a plane to NY to start her new job. Jon thats a funny comment on Charlie Brown's Christmas, we play that every year at dinner. I'm working on getting some gated measurements for you to check.ops: Ya I think the C90 is great. :T Wayne you can always just spend on the tweet and upgrade the mid later, I'm happy I scraped pennies for the full meal deal!
Had a rough time with getting a working new tv though, sourced a Sam 75" 7150 at Black Friday prices and it came with a horrible back lit pic even with a calibration. I sent it back and that's the last SAM I buy cause my old one 800 series crapped just after warranty, had to change all the caps in the power supply after it wouldn't start (they put 10v caps in the 12v power supply). Then dead pic line started on one side. I was to nervous so traded for a Can 70" Sony 840B, same the US 850B, the contrast isn't as good as the SAM but the color and black levels are great and this one came perfect. Not much to do on a Sony they come pretty close right out of the box. I was relieved as a lot of net reports said the first 2014 batch of 850B came with banding issues but I guess Sony figured it out. Lots of EQing to do still but having fun.

Image not available

Carpet back in place and for movies they sound great tucked close. I added some gliders on the base so a little push out and they are ready for music.



So this is my happy feet pic. :B

[JonMarsh]

Man, that new Soundscape 8 with the OEM RAAL tweeter and the C79 mid sure looks like the dual 8's are Wavecor woofers!

I'll link pictures from my Mac tomorrow- on the iPad that's tricky to do.

[5th element]

Yeah Jon I saw that and thought that Salk obviously got the idea from this thread. Wouldn't be the first time and certainly wouldn't be a bad idea either.

[TEK]

If you designed a center channel like the one shown on the pictures, and ensured that:
- the width of the tweeter section is the same as on the floor standing
- the volume available for all the drivers are the same as on the floor standing
Would it then be possible (give a good result) if you were to follow this design and use the same drivers and crossover as for the floor standing?

[Steve Manning]

Man, that new Soundscape 8 with the OEM RAAL tweeter and the C79 mid sure looks like the dual 8's are Wavecor woofers!

I'll link pictures from my Mac tomorrow- on the iPad that's tricky to do.

Jon .... do you have any experience with the 10" Wavecor woofers. I was curious how much additional low end you would get out of a pair of those compared to the 8's?

[JonMarsh]

The 10" is an interesting looking critter, but I have no direct experience. The suspension looks like it's designed for a larger Xmax than the VC specs and air gap height would support. It's NOT a balanced drive model like the 8", but it uses an interesting undercut pole design with dual stabilizing rings that looks like it would work pretty well. Qt is in the right ballpark for a good sealed design. Inductance rise suggests it shouldn't be run up too high in frequency; I wouldn't cross it over as high as I do the SWBD223. Oddly, the data sheet doesn't provide measured response, though the impedance curve suggests a 2 kHz break up mode.

I probably ought to model this one up, and with the PR, too, just for fun. But I don't know that I'll be shelling out for them. It's so close to the price of the big Seas, I'd be surprised if it matched the brute force capability of that driver. I'm looking at the SW223BD02 in PR alignment mostly because it models like it could give a very extended, fairly flat low end in a smallish module, with an unmodified SS PR.

[Steve Manning]

I probably ought to model this one up, and with the PR, too, just for fun. But I don't know that I'll be shelling out for them. It's so close to the price of the big Seas, I'd be surprised if it matched the brute force capability of that driver. I'm looking at the SW223BD02 in PR alignment mostly because it models like it could give a very extended, fairly flat low end in a smallish module, with an unmodified SS PR.

Looking at the PR I did like the fact that it came with a hand full of additional weights to adjust the mass, I had not seen that on too many others, at least not specified.

[Steve Manning]

The 10" is an interesting looking critter, but I have no direct experience. The suspension looks like it's designed for a larger Xmax than the VC specs and air gap height would support. It's NOT a balanced drive model like the 8", but it uses an interesting undercut pole design with dual stabilizing rings that looks like it would work pretty well. Qt is in the right ballpark for a good sealed design. Inductance rise suggests it shouldn't be run up too high in frequency; I wouldn't cross it over as high as I do the SWBD223. Oddly, the data sheet doesn't provide measured response, though the impedance curve suggests a 2 kHz break up mode.

It would be interesting to see a pair of these with the mid and tweeter from your latest creation in a a design something like the Magico S5 or even the mid and tweeter from my 1071's.

[kvardas]

Hi, would the Scanspeak 7140 tweeter work with this design? If so, would it take much crossover mod?

Thanks

Krwis

[JonMarsh]

Hi, would the Scanspeak 7140 tweeter work with this design? If so, would it take much crossover mod?

Thanks

Krwis

Sure, it has the capability to work, but due to it's rather non-flat intrinsic response it would require a different HF crossover. Much more work than getting a 6600 or 9900 to work.

[kvardas]

Sure, it has the capability to work, but due to it's rather non-flat intrinsic response it would require a different HF crossover. Much more work than getting a 6600 or 9900 to work.

Thank Jon for the reply. Someone on eBay I selling a pair so that I thought I would ask. I am going to pass on them and get a pair of the 6400.

Best regards

Kris

[TEK]

If you designed a center channel like the one shown on the pictures, and ensured that:
- the width of the tweeter section is the same as on the floor standing
- the volume available for all the drivers are the same as on the floor standing
Would it then be possible (give a good result) if you were to follow this design and use the same drivers and crossover as for the floor standing?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]23763[/ATTACH]

You know I can handle to be told that this is a shitty idea as well?
Just tought that if you kept the baffel layout for tweeter and mid, as well as the internal layout, you might get a center edition with the same sound character and still reuse all the crossover work from the mains...
Of course the drawing is just a sketch to share the idea - not an actual design.

[BobEllis]

I thought someone would have chimed in on that sooner, TEK. My gut tells me that the plane of the woofers is too close to the tweeter/mid face for the facets to really have good effects. Looks cool, though. I think you would be just as well off angling the baffle back the same as the mains and adjusting the crossover from there. Tweeter response would be closer to IB response and baffle step would be different. I'm toying around with a center that is a small mid-tweeter box faceted like the mains sitting on a faceted box laying sideways with at least one woofer or maybe a single woofer stubby version. I have the luxury of a wall mounted TV and equipment rack off to the side.

[dar47]

I'm not sure anyone would need 2-8 3/4" sub woofers in a center channel. If it's a large room and you want a lot a dynamics (gun fire) then maybe 4-7" drivers. My old center had 2 RS225's and it was still crossed at 60hrz. My new one with the 2-7" Wavecors doesn't seam to give anything up on dynamics.

[benthe8track]

You know I can handle to be told that this is a shitty idea as well?
Just tought that if you kept the baffel layout for tweeter and mid, as well as the internal layout, you might get a center edition with the same sound character and still reuse all the crossover work from the mains...
Of course the drawing is just a sketch to share the idea - not an actual design.

It's not shitty. I started sketching up something similar but based on this guy on it's side using the same drivers in Dar47s centre.



This is probably a 2-3 years away for me unless a certain energy commodity rebounds unexpectedly soon.

[TEK]

I'm thinking that I have no knowledge about building crossovers, so if I was able to use the same crossover as for the mains, that would be very nice.
When it comes to the "need" for 2-8 3/4" sub woofers in a center channel, that's more about economy.
Pro (if possible to use same crossover):
- same drivers as mains, so you are sure you get the same sound signature
- easy to buy the crossover parts at the same time as for the mains
- easy to build the crossover the same time as for the mains
- should give extremely good center channel sound...

Cons:
- might cost more then if you use smaller drivers
- might not give the wanted result due to different baffel layout
- might need a higher quality amp than with smaller drivers
- harder do build (than for example Dar47'ens)
- smaller drivers would probably allow for a smaller form factor (if that is an issue - I do not think it will be for my part)
- a center channel is likely to be closer to the back wall than the mains, and should maybe bee considered in the crossover design - witch it will not be with this solution

This might be another solution, but I think it would be hard to get the same volume as for the mains with a solution like this, so it might require smaller drivers. And therefore a new crossover...

Or this


But I think that the basic question is: Is it possible/realistic to design a (laying) center channel that can reuse the drivers and crossover of the mains and give a good result - or would you in any case have to have a different crossover for the center?

[JonMarsh]

IF the mid is crossover high enough that the BSC region is avoided (not quite the case here, but close), it can be done. This would probably work OK, given the crossover points of the cabinet- but the only way to know for sure is to measure. Worst case you might get away fine with just reducing the value of one or more of the series caps.

If you have measurement capability and can generate FRD files in the cabinet you build, I can verify the crossover .

[ergo]

Hi Jon,

How is the progress going with the build instructions for the "Ardent MkII, Wavecor edition"? I know you'r busy at job + there have been many other interesting side tracks in last weeks....
This design really appeals to me and I do plan to build a pair during this calendar year (after a build of sauna and the listening/studio room is done).

**
If the instructions take time then it would be great to make the list of components available. The Wavecor SW223BD01 seems harder to source in EU than the Wavecor SW223BD02 for example. Latter seems to be close though.
Due to overall expense and sourcing challenge it'll take at least few months to gather the parts I'm sure. (If anyone knows a good source for LBL panels in EU, especially Scandinavia let me know)

Thank you and the 'rest of the team' for making this nice design available.

Ergo

PS. This is the room these speakers would live in... I'm in progress of figuring out the acoustic solutions and also trying to get the axis right and apply some ceiling absorption for the first reflection spots.

[JonMarsh]

Well, the big PDF is underway but it will be a big project, too! Competing for time is setting up a new home office at GF's, and a small lab, too, for after this special customer project is finished (scheduled now for Jan 15).

The SW223BD02 is fine, and is apparently the version moving forward, as it has some further tweaks to the suspension.

With the room setup you're showing, you're going probably be listening in quasi-near field. Usually for a long rectangular room if the situation permits I'd recommend setting up along the length of the room, using the Cardas room setup guide as a starting point, and fine tuning as desired. Another concept that helps with room positioning is a reciprocity test- put one speaker in your planned listening position, then listen or measure at a variety of proposed speaker positions, picking the one with the smoothest response.

[TEK]

Is it possible to release the "part list part of the big pdf"?
I know there were some parts list earlier in this thread, but not sure if they were the final version. I do also think that getting the parts will take some time.

[JonMarsh]

I was actually planning to first do a "build thread" update which has the facts, ma'am, just the facts- final schematic, two alternative BOM's (DAR47 and JMH version, though if we have a print of Ben's, no reason not to include that) and links for cabinet part PDF's and overview drawings (which still need to be created from the CAD model files).

Tell you what, I'll start up that thread no later than this weekend, and reserve the necessary page sections for each topic.

[viki_v2]

Nice Speakers. Any chance these could be vented or Tl.

[JonMarsh]

Vented or TL alignments have considerable hangover in the transient step response. The Wavecor woofers were selected for the ability to have a low extended response in the same size enclosure as the first Ardent design, which was ported, using 7" drivers. The Wavecor woofers are capable of much more LF output due to the different in driver diameter (8-3/4" versus 6-1/2" or 7" (Seas ER18RNX or SS illuminator 7") and longer Xmax. You could put a port on these, but I've never looked at the box analysis to see what tuning might be practical and what it would take to get a fairly flat output curve. I do know that the Wavecor woofer will work well with a PR but to optimize that tuning requires 40-50 L for each driver and PR, as opposed to 40L for the two SW223BD01 sealed.

Bottom line, you'd need to about double the LF enclosure volume to get something worth while out of going ported. Not surprising, just Hoffman's iron law again...

[TEK]

I was actually planning to first do a "build thread" update which has the facts, ma'am, just the facts- final schematic, two alternative BOM's (DAR47 and JMH version, though if we have a print of Ben's, no reason not to include that) and links for cabinet part PDF's and overview drawings (which still need to be created from the CAD model files).

Tell you what, I'll start up that thread no later than this weekend, and reserve the necessary page sections for each topic.

Sounds great Jon

[viki_v2]

It will be nice having Write up of speakers.

[benthe8track]

Getting a lot of requests for the models. This was posted a few pages back but here it is again. The non-SolidWorks are in the Other Formats folder.

Can we get a list of the free software that worked from those who opened them?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7pv3rdchbz0tp0k/AAAfkazNxSDsWCIGWNVK8jDOa?dl=0

[dar47]

Seems to be a need for dimensioned drawings with some construction notes, so I'll try and get that done this week. Not sure if Jon has the time to create all this. Here is my final xover that I built. Probably the most expensive but I sure like it. I had to substitute 1 resister in the tweeter section because my choice was out of stock but this was my intent.

[wkhanna]

As one who lives & dies by the Excel spreadsheet every workday, my complements & thanks for sharing your efforts! :T