Wavecor Ardent Journal - the first Builds

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 16053

    #1171
    Originally posted by dar47
    Well I got Stereo, they are fantastic :B

    These Wavecor's are potent, they lay waste too my old RS225 based three ways i last had down stairs. Jon & Ben check out Patrica Barber's " To rich for my blood", great base attach. Still some work to do taming the grill felt and putting the room back together, Jon I'm so happy you went for these. :T:T:T

    Beautiful looking setup, glad to see you up and running! They look fantastic! :T I really like your cherry finish in that room! I'll include this picture, too.

    Which album of hers is that cut on? I have several of her CD's, but none ripped yet- and some of her stuff is on HD Tracks (the easy way these days for me with the music server). Speaking of music servers, the high power 24V linear supply finally arrived from the UK this Monday, so another project for the holidays is getting the second LPFRS running with that linear supply, and setting up the Mutec MC3+ FINALLY, with it's auto sample rate tracking. (DCD-8 must be set manually to the incoming sample rate).
    Last edited by theSven; 01 May 2023, 14:43 Monday. Reason: Update image location
    the AudioWorx
    Natalie P
    M8ta
    Modula Neo DCC
    Modula MT XE
    Modula Xtreme
    Isiris
    Wavecor Ardent

    SMJ
    Minerva Monitor
    Calliope
    Ardent D

    In Development...
    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
    Obi-Wan
    Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
    Modula PWB
    Calliope CC Supreme
    Natalie P Ultra
    Natalie P Supreme
    Janus BP1 Sub


    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

    Comment

    • 5th element
      Supreme Being Moderator
      • Sep 2009
      • 1677

      #1172
      Originally posted by dar47
      Thanks 5th.
      I agree with you, When you add a small sub to the Modula's they are very potent. I was a little worried playing just one Ardent and one Modula, not big base. With 2 a whole new story. Wish more builders could reach for these they are very nice and well worth the effort.
      I really wish I could get to hear them!
      What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
      5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
      Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

      Comment

      • Steve Manning
        Moderator
        • Dec 2006
        • 2121

        #1173
        Beautiful job not only on the speakers but the whole setup. I'm with Jon the cherry is a very nice look, I never really appreciated the natural look of it until I started working with it myself. All three of you have some very nice looking cabinets out of this project. :T
        Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



        WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

        Comment

        • dar47
          Senior Member
          • Nov 2008
          • 876

          #1174
          Which album of hers is that cut on?
          Thanks for the kind words. That must be tough waiting for time to get all your planned gear in the chain, hope it works out. That song was from Original Master Recordings Cafe Blue. Last third of the song drums and symbols are great. Most of my bad recordings that I have played so far, are ruthlessly revealed so much I have to check with a good one just to ease my mind that all is good. haha. I'm not big on sound superlatives but so far I get the "holographic large sound stage thing, best sound in my room and I'm all smiles! I really think the 6640 is a nice step up from the 6600 and well worth it. Wondering how much the the MR's are playing their part. Should be fun tomorrow when Ben gets in and we spark up the IB.:B.

          Comment

          • dar47
            Senior Member
            • Nov 2008
            • 876

            #1175
            Originally posted by Steve Manning
            Beautiful job not only on the speakers but the whole setup. I'm with Jon the cherry is a very nice look, I never really appreciated the natural look of it until I started working with it myself. All three of you have some very nice looking cabinets out of this project. :T
            Thanks Steve, just started working with cherry the last ten year or so and I agree if stay off the stain and use something like the conversion varnish on these with a lot of UV blockers it can really pop the grain and provide interesting warmth to your room. I guess I have settled on the cherry, maple and birch.

            Comment

            • kevinm
              Senior Member
              • Jun 2013
              • 417

              #1176
              Originally posted by dar47
              Thanks, Kevin. Yes 14awg. Learned that from the master doing the Modula MK2 build.
              Perfect. Thanks! And BEAUTIFUL speakers by the way.

              Comment

              • Steve Manning
                Moderator
                • Dec 2006
                • 2121

                #1177
                Originally posted by dar47
                Thanks Steve, just started working with cherry the last ten year or so and I agree if stay off the stain and use something like the conversion varnish on these with a lot of UV blockers it can really pop the grain and provide interesting warmth to your room. I guess I have settled on the cherry, maple and birch.
                I tried a water borne finish for the for the first time on a cherry remote table ...... it does not yellow at all but really pops the grain well (almost three dimensional) and is very easy to work with and clean up.
                Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 16053

                  #1178
                  Originally posted by dar47
                  Thanks for the kind words. That must be tough waiting for time to get all your planned gear in the chain, hope it works out. That song was from Original Master Recordings Cafe Blue. Last third of the song drums and symbols are great. Most of my bad recordings that I have played so far, are ruthlessly revealed so much I have to check with a good one just to ease my mind that all is good. haha. I'm not big on sound superlatives but so far I get the "holographic large sound stage thing, best sound in my room and I'm all smiles! I really think the 6640 is a nice step up from the 6600 and well worth it. Wondering how much the the MR's are playing their part. Should be fun tomorrow when Ben gets in and we spark up the IB.:B.

                  Intersting... I checked at HD tracks, only a 44.1/16 version is available. I looked into more history regarding the recording, and it was originally recorded on a 32 track Otari, 48kHz/16. There have been analog mix downs created on to tape, which in turn have been A/D (by Doug Sax) at 24/192, and then converted to DSD... you understand, being an engineer, I'm a little skeptical of the merit of a DSD release (Acoustic Sounds) made this way from original 48/16 recording. Oh well.... you know, there's even a "High Resolution" blue ray out of this... I should just go find my CD, or maybe I'll download it from HD Tracks straight to FLAC to save myself the time and trouble! :W
                  the AudioWorx
                  Natalie P
                  M8ta
                  Modula Neo DCC
                  Modula MT XE
                  Modula Xtreme
                  Isiris
                  Wavecor Ardent

                  SMJ
                  Minerva Monitor
                  Calliope
                  Ardent D

                  In Development...
                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                  Obi-Wan
                  Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                  Modula PWB
                  Calliope CC Supreme
                  Natalie P Ultra
                  Natalie P Supreme
                  Janus BP1 Sub


                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment

                  • JonMarsh
                    Mad Max Moderator
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 16053

                    #1179
                    Well, I'm listening to the album now via VOX on my Macbook Pro at the lab in Cupertino. Sounds pretty nice though my B&W P5 headphones; looking forward to loading it into the system over the holidays!
                    the AudioWorx
                    Natalie P
                    M8ta
                    Modula Neo DCC
                    Modula MT XE
                    Modula Xtreme
                    Isiris
                    Wavecor Ardent

                    SMJ
                    Minerva Monitor
                    Calliope
                    Ardent D

                    In Development...
                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                    Obi-Wan
                    Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                    Modula PWB
                    Calliope CC Supreme
                    Natalie P Ultra
                    Natalie P Supreme
                    Janus BP1 Sub


                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 16053

                      #1180
                      In spite of being "just" 44.1/16, there are some very good cuts on this album with high levels of natural detail on the percussion instruments- "Nardis" is the one I just heard that particularly caught my attention. Not a just a bass thing, but overall detail on the drum kit.
                      the AudioWorx
                      Natalie P
                      M8ta
                      Modula Neo DCC
                      Modula MT XE
                      Modula Xtreme
                      Isiris
                      Wavecor Ardent

                      SMJ
                      Minerva Monitor
                      Calliope
                      Ardent D

                      In Development...
                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                      Obi-Wan
                      Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                      Modula PWB
                      Calliope CC Supreme
                      Natalie P Ultra
                      Natalie P Supreme
                      Janus BP1 Sub


                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment

                      • Johnloudb
                        Super Senior Member
                        • May 2007
                        • 1913

                        #1181
                        I heard a Patricia Barber song at Music Lovers, in Berkley CA two years ago. My lady friend at the time, a non audiophile, got all excited about the finger snapping on that cut, heard through the Wilson Audio, Sasha Loudspeaker. It sounded so real, she was there! I can't say if it was 16 or 24 bit though. But I have some CD's that do sound amazing. The amplification was a Charles Hansen circuit as well, but not Arye gear.
                        John unk:

                        "Why can't we all just, get along?" ~ Jack Nicholson (Mars Attacks)

                        My Website (hyperacusis, tinnitus, my story)

                        Comment

                        • wkhanna
                          Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                          • Jan 2006
                          • 5674

                          #1182
                          I don't have the HDtracks version of 'Cafe Blue', but this is my FLAC conversion of my redbook SeeDee I am listing to now:


                          foobar2000 1.1.6 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
                          log date: 2014-12-20 12:56:35

                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          Analyzed: Patricia Barber / CafƩ Blue
                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          DR Peak RMS Duration Track
                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          DR14 -0.78 dB -19.34 dB 5:25 01-What A Shame
                          DR14 -0.04 dB -18.46 dB 6:59 02-Mourning Grace
                          DR13 -3.92 dB -21.66 dB 4:40 03-The Thrill Is Gone
                          DR13 -3.10 dB -23.05 dB 4:28 04-Romanesque
                          DR17 -0.10 dB -20.09 dB 5:08 05-Yellow Car III
                          DR15 -4.11 dB -22.45 dB 0:58 06-Wood is a Pleasant Thing to Think About
                          DR13 -6.97 dB -23.90 dB 5:03 07-Inchworm
                          DR18 -1.36 dB -24.19 dB 5:21 08-Ode To Billy Joe
                          DR12 -0.07 dB -16.43 dB 7:59 09-Too Rich for my Blood
                          DR18 -0.10 dB -22.92 dB 4:29 10-A Taste Of Honey
                          DR15 -0.01 dB -19.87 dB 9:02 11-Nardis
                          DR20 -0.27 dB -23.77 dB 3:23 12-Manha De Carnaval
                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          Number of tracks: 12
                          Official DR value: DR15

                          Samplerate: 44100 Hz
                          Channels: 2
                          Bits per sample: 16
                          Bitrate: 666 kbps
                          Codec: FLAC
                          ================================================== ==============================
                          _


                          Bill

                          Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                          ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                          FinleyAudio

                          Comment

                          • dar47
                            Senior Member
                            • Nov 2008
                            • 876

                            #1183
                            Ya not high res but still sounds great. John that finger snapping on the Ardents sounds great too.:B

                            Had some time to play with the IB. Weird feeling when you go in the back room when playing 80db or more, kind of makes you feel nauseous a little. It goes low and flexes the door between the rooms a lot. I'm going to have to play with some gasket to seal it better but the force canceling arrangement for the manifold works well and my beef up framing seems adequate. I took some left over fiber fill from the Ardent build and stuffed some socks to plug the 2 cable pass through holes and that works great. Going to need some more time to tune for both music and theater but so far I'm liking crossing the Ardents at 40hrz for music. Ben is all smiles paying with the IB.

                            Did some carving of the grill felt. Basically measure quick sweeps at 1 meter with grill off, then grill on no felt and then with grill and felt. Had to open the felt up quite a bit to keep the response close to grill on no felt. The felt smooths between 2k and 10k. Couldn't find any soft wool like Jon has but I'm pretty happy with this result for now.

                            Showing 1/6 smoothing. Better plots later True RTA not the best for plots.

                            Image not available

                            Have to wait a few days now before I can do some more measuring as we here are having an early Christmas dinner so Ben can head back to Cal.
                            Last edited by theSven; 25 June 2023, 19:27 Sunday. Reason: Remove broken image link

                            Comment

                            • JonMarsh
                              Mad Max Moderator
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 16053

                              #1184
                              IS this in an RTA mode or something more like a gated MLS or swept sine measurement? RTA will be influenced much more by room, and won't reflect the true speaker response. Can you run ARTA in demo mode? Or REW?

                              Well, I find myself ill prepared for the Holidays- I know that somewhere at home I've got quite a few holiday CDs, but all that's loaded on the server is "A Charlie Brown Christmas" and Nate King Cole. Sounds pretty good, though, pretty dang good, in fact! :T

                              Hope you and Ben and everyone else has a great Christmas!







                              Update: searched Christmas Genre and found two more, including Al DiMeola's "Winter Nights" - I'd forgotten how nice that one is-
                              Last edited by JonMarsh; 23 December 2014, 23:01 Tuesday.
                              the AudioWorx
                              Natalie P
                              M8ta
                              Modula Neo DCC
                              Modula MT XE
                              Modula Xtreme
                              Isiris
                              Wavecor Ardent

                              SMJ
                              Minerva Monitor
                              Calliope
                              Ardent D

                              In Development...
                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                              Obi-Wan
                              Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                              Modula PWB
                              Calliope CC Supreme
                              Natalie P Ultra
                              Natalie P Supreme
                              Janus BP1 Sub


                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                              Comment

                              • JonMarsh
                                Mad Max Moderator
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 16053

                                #1185
                                Click image for larger version

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                                From the development of the Salk Soundscape, their top of the line model:


                                The midrange was a bit more challenging. We started by purchasing samples of ALL of the finest high-end midrange drivers we could get our hands on. We even had some custom built to see if we could improve upon those that were currently available. We tested them, one by one, for accuracy, power handling, dispersion and a other variables.We narrowed down the possibilities and set out to design cabinets to test the remaining drivers as full-blown prototypes we could A/B against one another. It took an entire year of working with multiple midrange drivers until we settled on an Accuton midrange. In the end, no other driver came close.
                                The one they're using is the C79.
                                Last edited by theSven; 01 May 2023, 14:41 Monday. Reason: Update image location
                                the AudioWorx
                                Natalie P
                                M8ta
                                Modula Neo DCC
                                Modula MT XE
                                Modula Xtreme
                                Isiris
                                Wavecor Ardent

                                SMJ
                                Minerva Monitor
                                Calliope
                                Ardent D

                                In Development...
                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                Obi-Wan
                                Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                Modula PWB
                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                Natalie P Ultra
                                Natalie P Supreme
                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                Comment

                                • wkhanna
                                  Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                  • Jan 2006
                                  • 5674

                                  #1186
                                  We heard some of the Salk offerings at this year's Capital Audiofest.

                                  Review from Scot (aka the Part Time Audiophile)

                                  I will add my personal impressions simply by stating that proper implementation is vital regardless of the components.
                                  Their under- $3k offerings had the most value, according to this old curmudgeon's ears.
                                  _


                                  Bill

                                  Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                  ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                  FinleyAudio

                                  Comment

                                  • Wayman
                                    Member
                                    • May 2014
                                    • 89

                                    #1187
                                    That's quite a compliment on the C79. I'm losing the argument with myself over using cheaper x-over parts. Hard to justify when the such care was taken to get the most out of these drivers.

                                    Cheers, Wayne

                                    Comment

                                    • dar47
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Nov 2008
                                      • 876

                                      #1188
                                      Hope all had a great Christmas and will have a great new year. A little sad to start for me as I just put my daughter on a plane to NY to start her new job. Jon thats a funny comment on Charlie Brown's Christmas, we play that every year at dinner. I'm working on getting some gated measurements for you to check.ops: Ya I think the C90 is great. :T Wayne you can always just spend on the tweet and upgrade the mid later, I'm happy I scraped pennies for the full meal deal!
                                      Had a rough time with getting a working new tv though, sourced a Sam 75" 7150 at Black Friday prices and it came with a horrible back lit pic even with a calibration. I sent it back and that's the last SAM I buy cause my old one 800 series crapped just after warranty, had to change all the caps in the power supply after it wouldn't start (they put 10v caps in the 12v power supply). Then dead pic line started on one side. I was to nervous so traded for a Can 70" Sony 840B, same the US 850B, the contrast isn't as good as the SAM but the color and black levels are great and this one came perfect. Not much to do on a Sony they come pretty close right out of the box. I was relieved as a lot of net reports said the first 2014 batch of 850B came with banding issues but I guess Sony figured it out. Lots of EQing to do still but having fun.

                                      Image not available

                                      Carpet back in place and for movies they sound great tucked close. I added some gliders on the base so a little push out and they are ready for music.

                                      Click image for larger version  Name:	jan001.webp Views:	13 Size:	60.5 KB ID:	934589

                                      So this is my happy feet pic. :B

                                      Click image for larger version  Name:	jan003.webp Views:	13 Size:	35.6 KB ID:	934590
                                      Last edited by theSven; 25 June 2023, 19:39 Sunday. Reason: Remove broken image link

                                      Comment

                                      • JonMarsh
                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                        • Aug 2000
                                        • 16053

                                        #1189
                                        Man, that new Soundscape 8 with the OEM RAAL tweeter and the C79 mid sure looks like the dual 8's are Wavecor woofers!

                                        I'll link pictures from my Mac tomorrow- on the iPad that's tricky to do.


                                        Click image for larger version

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                                        Last edited by theSven; 01 May 2023, 14:37 Monday. Reason: Update image location
                                        the AudioWorx
                                        Natalie P
                                        M8ta
                                        Modula Neo DCC
                                        Modula MT XE
                                        Modula Xtreme
                                        Isiris
                                        Wavecor Ardent

                                        SMJ
                                        Minerva Monitor
                                        Calliope
                                        Ardent D

                                        In Development...
                                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                        Obi-Wan
                                        Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                        Modula PWB
                                        Calliope CC Supreme
                                        Natalie P Ultra
                                        Natalie P Supreme
                                        Janus BP1 Sub


                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                        Comment

                                        • 5th element
                                          Supreme Being Moderator
                                          • Sep 2009
                                          • 1677

                                          #1190
                                          Yeah Jon I saw that and thought that Salk obviously got the idea from this thread. Wouldn't be the first time and certainly wouldn't be a bad idea either.
                                          What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
                                          5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
                                          Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

                                          Comment

                                          • TEK
                                            Super Senior Member
                                            • Oct 2002
                                            • 1670

                                            #1191
                                            If you designed a center channel like the one shown on the pictures, and ensured that:
                                            - the width of the tweeter section is the same as on the floor standing
                                            - the volume available for all the drivers are the same as on the floor standing
                                            Would it then be possible (give a good result) if you were to follow this design and use the same drivers and crossover as for the floor standing?
                                            Click image for larger version

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                                            -TEK


                                            Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                                            Comment

                                            • Steve Manning
                                              Moderator
                                              • Dec 2006
                                              • 2121

                                              #1192
                                              Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                              Man, that new Soundscape 8 with the OEM RAAL tweeter and the C79 mid sure looks like the dual 8's are Wavecor woofers!

                                              I'll link pictures from my Mac tomorrow- on the iPad that's tricky to do.


                                              Click image for larger version  Name:	ct6a7917_zps7c2c4f15.jpg Views:	0 Size:	377.8 KB ID:	934588
                                              Jon .... do you have any experience with the 10" Wavecor woofers. I was curious how much additional low end you would get out of a pair of those compared to the 8's?
                                              Last edited by theSven; 01 May 2023, 14:37 Monday. Reason: Update image location
                                              Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                              WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                              Comment

                                              • JonMarsh
                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                • Aug 2000
                                                • 16053

                                                #1193
                                                The 10" is an interesting looking critter, but I have no direct experience. The suspension looks like it's designed for a larger Xmax than the VC specs and air gap height would support. It's NOT a balanced drive model like the 8", but it uses an interesting undercut pole design with dual stabilizing rings that looks like it would work pretty well. Qt is in the right ballpark for a good sealed design. Inductance rise suggests it shouldn't be run up too high in frequency; I wouldn't cross it over as high as I do the SWBD223. Oddly, the data sheet doesn't provide measured response, though the impedance curve suggests a 2 kHz break up mode.

                                                I probably ought to model this one up, and with the PR, too, just for fun. But I don't know that I'll be shelling out for them. It's so close to the price of the big Seas, I'd be surprised if it matched the brute force capability of that driver. I'm looking at the SW223BD02 in PR alignment mostly because it models like it could give a very extended, fairly flat low end in a smallish module, with an unmodified SS PR.
                                                the AudioWorx
                                                Natalie P
                                                M8ta
                                                Modula Neo DCC
                                                Modula MT XE
                                                Modula Xtreme
                                                Isiris
                                                Wavecor Ardent

                                                SMJ
                                                Minerva Monitor
                                                Calliope
                                                Ardent D

                                                In Development...
                                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                Obi-Wan
                                                Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                Modula PWB
                                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                                Natalie P Ultra
                                                Natalie P Supreme
                                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                Comment

                                                • Steve Manning
                                                  Moderator
                                                  • Dec 2006
                                                  • 2121

                                                  #1194
                                                  Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                  I probably ought to model this one up, and with the PR, too, just for fun. But I don't know that I'll be shelling out for them. It's so close to the price of the big Seas, I'd be surprised if it matched the brute force capability of that driver. I'm looking at the SW223BD02 in PR alignment mostly because it models like it could give a very extended, fairly flat low end in a smallish module, with an unmodified SS PR.
                                                  Looking at the PR I did like the fact that it came with a hand full of additional weights to adjust the mass, I had not seen that on too many others, at least not specified.
                                                  Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                                  WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Steve Manning
                                                    Moderator
                                                    • Dec 2006
                                                    • 2121

                                                    #1195
                                                    Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                    The 10" is an interesting looking critter, but I have no direct experience. The suspension looks like it's designed for a larger Xmax than the VC specs and air gap height would support. It's NOT a balanced drive model like the 8", but it uses an interesting undercut pole design with dual stabilizing rings that looks like it would work pretty well. Qt is in the right ballpark for a good sealed design. Inductance rise suggests it shouldn't be run up too high in frequency; I wouldn't cross it over as high as I do the SWBD223. Oddly, the data sheet doesn't provide measured response, though the impedance curve suggests a 2 kHz break up mode.
                                                    It would be interesting to see a pair of these with the mid and tweeter from your latest creation in a a design something like the Magico S5 or even the mid and tweeter from my 1071's.
                                                    Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                                    WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                                    Comment

                                                    • kvardas
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Dec 2005
                                                      • 125

                                                      #1196
                                                      Hi, would the Scanspeak 7140 tweeter work with this design? If so, would it take much crossover mod?

                                                      Thanks

                                                      Krwis

                                                      Comment

                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                        • 16053

                                                        #1197
                                                        Originally posted by kvardas
                                                        Hi, would the Scanspeak 7140 tweeter work with this design? If so, would it take much crossover mod?

                                                        Thanks

                                                        Krwis
                                                        Sure, it has the capability to work, but due to it's rather non-flat intrinsic response it would require a different HF crossover. Much more work than getting a 6600 or 9900 to work.
                                                        the AudioWorx
                                                        Natalie P
                                                        M8ta
                                                        Modula Neo DCC
                                                        Modula MT XE
                                                        Modula Xtreme
                                                        Isiris
                                                        Wavecor Ardent

                                                        SMJ
                                                        Minerva Monitor
                                                        Calliope
                                                        Ardent D

                                                        In Development...
                                                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                        Obi-Wan
                                                        Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                        Modula PWB
                                                        Calliope CC Supreme
                                                        Natalie P Ultra
                                                        Natalie P Supreme
                                                        Janus BP1 Sub


                                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                        Comment

                                                        • kvardas
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Dec 2005
                                                          • 125

                                                          #1198
                                                          Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                          Sure, it has the capability to work, but due to it's rather non-flat intrinsic response it would require a different HF crossover. Much more work than getting a 6600 or 9900 to work.
                                                          Thank Jon for the reply. Someone on eBay I selling a pair so that I thought I would ask. I am going to pass on them and get a pair of the 6400.

                                                          Best regards

                                                          Kris

                                                          Comment

                                                          • TEK
                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                            • Oct 2002
                                                            • 1670

                                                            #1199
                                                            Originally posted by TEK
                                                            If you designed a center channel like the one shown on the pictures, and ensured that:
                                                            - the width of the tweeter section is the same as on the floor standing
                                                            - the volume available for all the drivers are the same as on the floor standing
                                                            Would it then be possible (give a good result) if you were to follow this design and use the same drivers and crossover as for the floor standing?
                                                            [ATTACH=CONFIG]23763[/ATTACH]
                                                            You know I can handle to be told that this is a shitty idea as well?
                                                            Just tought that if you kept the baffel layout for tweeter and mid, as well as the internal layout, you might get a center edition with the same sound character and still reuse all the crossover work from the mains...
                                                            Of course the drawing is just a sketch to share the idea - not an actual design.
                                                            -TEK


                                                            Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                                                            Comment

                                                            • BobEllis
                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                              • Dec 2005
                                                              • 1609

                                                              #1200
                                                              I thought someone would have chimed in on that sooner, TEK. My gut tells me that the plane of the woofers is too close to the tweeter/mid face for the facets to really have good effects. Looks cool, though. I think you would be just as well off angling the baffle back the same as the mains and adjusting the crossover from there. Tweeter response would be closer to IB response and baffle step would be different. I'm toying around with a center that is a small mid-tweeter box faceted like the mains sitting on a faceted box laying sideways with at least one woofer or maybe a single woofer stubby version. I have the luxury of a wall mounted TV and equipment rack off to the side.

                                                              Comment

                                                              • dar47
                                                                Senior Member
                                                                • Nov 2008
                                                                • 876

                                                                #1201
                                                                I'm not sure anyone would need 2-8 3/4" sub woofers in a center channel. If it's a large room and you want a lot a dynamics (gun fire) then maybe 4-7" drivers. My old center had 2 RS225's and it was still crossed at 60hrz. My new one with the 2-7" Wavecors doesn't seam to give anything up on dynamics.

                                                                Comment

                                                                • benthe8track
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Feb 2008
                                                                  • 371

                                                                  #1202
                                                                  Originally posted by TEK
                                                                  You know I can handle to be told that this is a shitty idea as well?
                                                                  Just tought that if you kept the baffel layout for tweeter and mid, as well as the internal layout, you might get a center edition with the same sound character and still reuse all the crossover work from the mains...
                                                                  Of course the drawing is just a sketch to share the idea - not an actual design.
                                                                  It's not shitty. I started sketching up something similar but based on this guy on it's side using the same drivers in Dar47s centre.

                                                                  Click image for larger version

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                                                                  This is probably a 2-3 years away for me unless a certain energy commodity rebounds unexpectedly soon.
                                                                  Last edited by theSven; 01 May 2023, 14:36 Monday. Reason: Update image location

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • TEK
                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                    • Oct 2002
                                                                    • 1670

                                                                    #1203
                                                                    I'm thinking that I have no knowledge about building crossovers, so if I was able to use the same crossover as for the mains, that would be very nice.
                                                                    When it comes to the "need" for 2-8 3/4" sub woofers in a center channel, that's more about economy.
                                                                    Pro (if possible to use same crossover):
                                                                    - same drivers as mains, so you are sure you get the same sound signature
                                                                    - easy to buy the crossover parts at the same time as for the mains
                                                                    - easy to build the crossover the same time as for the mains
                                                                    - should give extremely good center channel sound...

                                                                    Cons:
                                                                    - might cost more then if you use smaller drivers
                                                                    - might not give the wanted result due to different baffel layout
                                                                    - might need a higher quality amp than with smaller drivers
                                                                    - harder do build (than for example Dar47'ens)
                                                                    - smaller drivers would probably allow for a smaller form factor (if that is an issue - I do not think it will be for my part)
                                                                    - a center channel is likely to be closer to the back wall than the mains, and should maybe bee considered in the crossover design - witch it will not be with this solution

                                                                    This might be another solution, but I think it would be hard to get the same volume as for the mains with a solution like this, so it might require smaller drivers. And therefore a new crossover...
                                                                    Click image for larger version

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                                                                    Or this
                                                                    Click image for larger version

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                                                                    But I think that the basic question is: Is it possible/realistic to design a (laying) center channel that can reuse the drivers and crossover of the mains and give a good result - or would you in any case have to have a different crossover for the center?
                                                                    -TEK


                                                                    Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                                      • 16053

                                                                      #1204
                                                                      IF the mid is crossover high enough that the BSC region is avoided (not quite the case here, but close), it can be done. This would probably work OK, given the crossover points of the cabinet- but the only way to know for sure is to measure. Worst case you might get away fine with just reducing the value of one or more of the series caps.

                                                                      If you have measurement capability and can generate FRD files in the cabinet you build, I can verify the crossover .
                                                                      the AudioWorx
                                                                      Natalie P
                                                                      M8ta
                                                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                                                      Modula MT XE
                                                                      Modula Xtreme
                                                                      Isiris
                                                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                                                      SMJ
                                                                      Minerva Monitor
                                                                      Calliope
                                                                      Ardent D

                                                                      In Development...
                                                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                      Obi-Wan
                                                                      Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                      Modula PWB
                                                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • ergo
                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                        • Mar 2005
                                                                        • 698

                                                                        #1205
                                                                        Hi Jon,

                                                                        How is the progress going with the build instructions for the "Ardent MkII, Wavecor edition"? I know you'r busy at job + there have been many other interesting side tracks in last weeks....
                                                                        This design really appeals to me and I do plan to build a pair during this calendar year (after a build of sauna and the listening/studio room is done).

                                                                        **
                                                                        If the instructions take time then it would be great to make the list of components available. The Wavecor SW223BD01 seems harder to source in EU than the Wavecor SW223BD02 for example. Latter seems to be close though.
                                                                        Due to overall expense and sourcing challenge it'll take at least few months to gather the parts I'm sure. (If anyone knows a good source for LBL panels in EU, especially Scandinavia let me know)

                                                                        Thank you and the 'rest of the team' for making this nice design available.

                                                                        Ergo

                                                                        PS. This is the room these speakers would live in... I'm in progress of figuring out the acoustic solutions and also trying to get the axis right and apply some ceiling absorption for the first reflection spots.

                                                                        Click image for larger version

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                                                                        Last edited by theSven; 01 May 2023, 15:36 Monday. Reason: Update image location

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                                          • 16053

                                                                          #1206
                                                                          Well, the big PDF is underway but it will be a big project, too! Competing for time is setting up a new home office at GF's, and a small lab, too, for after this special customer project is finished (scheduled now for Jan 15).

                                                                          The SW223BD02 is fine, and is apparently the version moving forward, as it has some further tweaks to the suspension.

                                                                          With the room setup you're showing, you're going probably be listening in quasi-near field. Usually for a long rectangular room if the situation permits I'd recommend setting up along the length of the room, using the Cardas room setup guide as a starting point, and fine tuning as desired. Another concept that helps with room positioning is a reciprocity test- put one speaker in your planned listening position, then listen or measure at a variety of proposed speaker positions, picking the one with the smoothest response.
                                                                          the AudioWorx
                                                                          Natalie P
                                                                          M8ta
                                                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                                                          Modula MT XE
                                                                          Modula Xtreme
                                                                          Isiris
                                                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                                                          SMJ
                                                                          Minerva Monitor
                                                                          Calliope
                                                                          Ardent D

                                                                          In Development...
                                                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                          Obi-Wan
                                                                          Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                          Modula PWB
                                                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • TEK
                                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                                            • Oct 2002
                                                                            • 1670

                                                                            #1207
                                                                            Is it possible to release the "part list part of the big pdf"?
                                                                            I know there were some parts list earlier in this thread, but not sure if they were the final version. I do also think that getting the parts will take some time.
                                                                            -TEK


                                                                            Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • JonMarsh
                                                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                                              • 16053

                                                                              #1208
                                                                              I was actually planning to first do a "build thread" update which has the facts, ma'am, just the facts- final schematic, two alternative BOM's (DAR47 and JMH version, though if we have a print of Ben's, no reason not to include that) and links for cabinet part PDF's and overview drawings (which still need to be created from the CAD model files).

                                                                              Tell you what, I'll start up that thread no later than this weekend, and reserve the necessary page sections for each topic.
                                                                              the AudioWorx
                                                                              Natalie P
                                                                              M8ta
                                                                              Modula Neo DCC
                                                                              Modula MT XE
                                                                              Modula Xtreme
                                                                              Isiris
                                                                              Wavecor Ardent

                                                                              SMJ
                                                                              Minerva Monitor
                                                                              Calliope
                                                                              Ardent D

                                                                              In Development...
                                                                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                              Obi-Wan
                                                                              Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                              Modula PWB
                                                                              Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                              Natalie P Ultra
                                                                              Natalie P Supreme
                                                                              Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • viki_v2
                                                                                Member
                                                                                • Jun 2012
                                                                                • 54

                                                                                #1209
                                                                                Nice Speakers. Any chance these could be vented or Tl.

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • JonMarsh
                                                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                                                  • 16053

                                                                                  #1210
                                                                                  Vented or TL alignments have considerable hangover in the transient step response. The Wavecor woofers were selected for the ability to have a low extended response in the same size enclosure as the first Ardent design, which was ported, using 7" drivers. The Wavecor woofers are capable of much more LF output due to the different in driver diameter (8-3/4" versus 6-1/2" or 7" (Seas ER18RNX or SS illuminator 7") and longer Xmax. You could put a port on these, but I've never looked at the box analysis to see what tuning might be practical and what it would take to get a fairly flat output curve. I do know that the Wavecor woofer will work well with a PR but to optimize that tuning requires 40-50 L for each driver and PR, as opposed to 40L for the two SW223BD01 sealed.

                                                                                  Bottom line, you'd need to about double the LF enclosure volume to get something worth while out of going ported. Not surprising, just Hoffman's iron law again...
                                                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                                                  Natalie P
                                                                                  M8ta
                                                                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                  Modula MT XE
                                                                                  Modula Xtreme
                                                                                  Isiris
                                                                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                  SMJ
                                                                                  Minerva Monitor
                                                                                  Calliope
                                                                                  Ardent D

                                                                                  In Development...
                                                                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                  Obi-Wan
                                                                                  Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                  Modula PWB
                                                                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • TEK
                                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                                    • Oct 2002
                                                                                    • 1670

                                                                                    #1211
                                                                                    I was actually planning to first do a "build thread" update which has the facts, ma'am, just the facts- final schematic, two alternative BOM's (DAR47 and JMH version, though if we have a print of Ben's, no reason not to include that) and links for cabinet part PDF's and overview drawings (which still need to be created from the CAD model files).

                                                                                    Tell you what, I'll start up that thread no later than this weekend, and reserve the necessary page sections for each topic.
                                                                                    Sounds great Jon
                                                                                    -TEK


                                                                                    Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • viki_v2
                                                                                      Member
                                                                                      • Jun 2012
                                                                                      • 54

                                                                                      #1212
                                                                                      It will be nice having Write up of speakers.

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • benthe8track
                                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                                        • Feb 2008
                                                                                        • 371

                                                                                        #1213
                                                                                        Getting a lot of requests for the models. This was posted a few pages back but here it is again. The non-SolidWorks are in the Other Formats folder.

                                                                                        Can we get a list of the free software that worked from those who opened them?

                                                                                        Last edited by benthe8track; 10 January 2015, 10:49 Saturday.

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • dar47
                                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                                          • Nov 2008
                                                                                          • 876

                                                                                          #1214
                                                                                          Seems to be a need for dimensioned drawings with some construction notes, so I'll try and get that done this week. Not sure if Jon has the time to create all this. Here is my final xover that I built. Probably the most expensive but I sure like it. I had to substitute 1 resister in the tweeter section because my choice was out of stock but this was my intent.

                                                                                          Click image for larger version

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                                                                                          Attached Files
                                                                                          Last edited by theSven; 01 May 2023, 14:36 Monday. Reason: Update image location

                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                          • wkhanna
                                                                                            Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                                                            • Jan 2006
                                                                                            • 5674

                                                                                            #1215
                                                                                            As one who lives & dies by the Excel spreadsheet every workday, my complements & thanks for sharing your efforts! :T
                                                                                            _


                                                                                            Bill

                                                                                            Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                                                            ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                                                            FinleyAudio

                                                                                            Comment

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