Warren and Kevin's Statement Build Thread

[Hollingshead]

Hello All,

Longtime lurker who talked so much about the Statements and how much I wanted to hear them that my friend Warren finally decided to work with me and we'd build two pair. Both first time speaker builders, but Warren is experienced in other DIY projects and has a very well-equipped shop, so we're cautiously optimistic.

So far we've cut the MDF (Wow what a mess!), but we're stymied on the small baffle holes. Warren's router does a great job with holes over 4", but has no way to cut circles smaller. And the Jasper jigs don't fit the Triton routers. Warren has several ideas for work arounds, but they're still to be tested. Any suggestions appreciated.

I'm going to try and assemble the crossovers this week. If I make three separate boards, am I correct that I can wire them in series with the wire from the source going first to one board, than to the next and then to third? Also, if we go with the 2" foam that Jim recommends to line the woofer parts of the box, how much will we need? I'd like to order it with the 1" for the mid tunnels, but I can't guess how much I'll need.

I'm sure we'll have more questions, but we'll try to make good use of the search function first. I can't thank the folks on this board enough for your expertise and your open-hearted help for any and all who ask. It's very impressive. And, most of all, I have to thank Jim, Curt and Wayne for their excellent design and patient assistance.

I can't wait to get them finished to hear what all the fuss is about.

We'll post pictures as soon as it starts to look like more than a pile of MDF.

Best,
Kevin

[evilskillit]

Ideas for cutting circles? Get a knife and start whittling?

You could re-drill the jasper jig to fit on that router. Borrow a router from somebody that does fit the jasper jig. Put the router in a router table, drive a nail into the router table to use as a pivot and spin the board around? A bit crazy bit it does work.

Other than that I got nothin. Good luck.

[numberoneoppa]

Heya Kevin, welcome to HTGuide. I really don't think I could offer any better advice than evilskillet has already given. Good luck and have fun!

[---k---]

Crossovers are wired in parallel. Run three pairs of wire from the binding post to each crossover board.

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Kevin.

Welcome to the HT Guide!

Let me see if I can give you a few ideas.

So far we've cut the MDF (Wow what a mess!), but we're stymied on the small baffle holes. Warren's router does a great job with holes over 4", but has no way to cut circles smaller. And the Jasper jigs don't fit the Triton routers. Warren has several ideas for work arounds, but they're still to be tested. Any suggestions appreciated.

If the work around isn't successful, I'd suggest you consider renting or borrowing a router that will work with the Jasper Jig. Another option is to get a cabinet maker in your area to cut the holes for you.

I'm going to try and assemble the crossovers this week. If I make three separate boards, am I correct that I can wire them in series with the wire from the source going first to one board, than to the next and then to third? Also, if we go with the 2" foam that Jim recommends to line the woofer parts of the box, how much will we need? I'd like to order it with the 1" for the mid tunnels, but I can't guess how much I'll need.

Nope, you can not wire them in series. You can wire them in parallel with each section of the crossover positive leads and negative leads joined together with the other positive and negative leads at the binding posts.

EDIT: Ryan beat me to it!

I believe Foam by Mail sells 12 square feet quantities which should be plenty for four Statements. If you run short, pick up some 2" unbacked fiberglass at Home Depot and finish it off. This is not a critical item as long as you have covered everywhere you can see when looking through the woofer cutouts in the front baffle. Do hold back from the inside of the front baffle on the sides, top & bottom about 1 1/2" with the foam so you aren't crowding the RS225's.

Good luck with your build! We're looking forward to seeing pictures as you progress.

Jim

[rmht]

Why not a hole saw with a good drill. Buy a multi-use auger, get the size you need and cut a precise hole if you take your time. MDF stinks when burnt.

[Hollingshead]

Thanks for the help, guys.

Re-reading my question about the crossovers, I realized that I asked it idiotically. I didn't actually mean to use the output of one board as the input of the next. I was hoping to wire from the input of one board to the input of the second and then to the input of the third. Which may still be a bad idea, but not as zany as my question implied. What I'm struggling with is how to connect three 12 gauge leads to the little tab on the binding post. Whether I solder or use a crimp on connector, it's still a lot of wire.

Jim- glad to hear one set of 12" squares should do it. That's pretty reasonable. I'll order the foam today.

For the hole cutting- several good ideas. I'll let you know which one we use.

Thanks again,
Kevin

[DeathMonk]

It's the same idea... wiring all the leads to the binding posts or at the xovers "INs" is the same thing.

[BeerParty]

I'm going to try and assemble the crossovers this week. If I make three separate boards, am I correct that I can wire them in series with the wire from the source going first to one board, than to the next and then to third?

Is there a specific reason for three boards? When I made mine, I found that I only needed two boards and could still fit them through the driver hole:

[Hollingshead]

Hi Chris,

No good reason to make three boards except that I'm nervous and it makes the component placement easier, or so it seemed. But attaching two leads to that little tab seems a lot easier than three. Did you solder your lead to the binding post or use a connector?

Best,
Kevin

[john trials]

I can name that tune in one note...

Actually, I made my Statement xover on one board, which fit very nicely through the woofer hole, and mounted on the inside of the baffle beneath the woofer hole, where there is no fiberglass/foam anyway.

Less boards=less interconnects=less chance of connector failure. I've been in manufacturing for years. The less connections, the better.

You should have titled this thread "Kevin and Warren's Excellent Adventure"...that's cool that you're building them together. A great project. You'll be happy with the results (of the speakers, and the size of your arms from lifting these things around!).

[BeerParty]

Hi Chris,

No good reason to make three boards except that I'm nervous and it makes the component placement easier, or so it seemed. But attaching two leads to that little tab seems a lot easier than three. Did you solder your lead to the binding post or use a connector?

Best,
Kevin

I soldered my wires on the plate, but just used the connector on the crossover boards in case I have to remove them. If you are going with three boards just make sure you can mount them in the area behind the Dayton RS180s. If you review my build thread you'll see that there isn't a lot of space back there after you put in the brace and the foam. I even had to change the brace from horizontal to vertical so I could put my boards on the sides of the cabinet.

I also used a large recessed speaker terminal plate, like this one, which had a long leads on the back for soldering the wires.

[EDIT]Hmm, I could have sworn that you were building the Monitors. Ignore the space warning, the full sized Statements have plenty of room behind the RS180s.[/EDIT]

[johngalt47]

I used the Router Buddy jig

The Router Buddy jig will allow you to make little circles.

[heapatrouble]

Ideas for cutting circles? Get a knife and start whittling?

You could re-drill the jasper jig to fit on that router. Borrow a router from somebody that does fit the jasper jig. Put the router in a router table, drive a nail into the router table to use as a pivot and spin the board around? A bit crazy bit it does work.

Other than that I got nothin. Good luck.

If you aren't sure you want to spend the money on a really solid plunge router, Harbor Freight sells two very reasonable priced ones. The one that's $10 more also accomodateds half-inch bits and is well worth the upgrade, I think. Additionally, they are compatible with the jasper jig (at least the ones that I have).

[Hollingshead]

More good ideas.

I like the idea of two (or even one) crossover board and I'll try to find a reasonably sized layout that respects the proper inductor spacing and orientation.

For the circles, we found a letter on Amazon from a user complaining about it being hard to mount the Jasper Jig to his Triton router, but he did manage to do it. So we feel pretty sure that we can too. We'll try it this weekend.

I'm attracted to the cool looking insulated binding posts from Parts Express that need a plate to install. Are they OK? Are there negatives to making the hole for the plate?

Thanks,
Kevin

[Hollingshead]

Hello Again,

Sorry for the long delay, but we have made some progress. As you can see from the pictures, we have one working speaker, though we haven't attached the baffle yet. Sounds very good, though I know it will sound better.

Some of the problems we encountered:

I don't know why I didn't figure out that a 3" port wouldn't fit in a 3" hole, but I didn't. So we had to enlarge the already drilled hole, which was tricky to do precisely. Also, getting the port flare to fit in the base so it could be screwed to the underside of the top of the base was very tricky. In fact we couldn't get it all the way down and settled for sliding in some shims and screwing through them to the base.

Also, for some reason, the tweeter wouldn't fit in between the mid-tunnels and finding a way to cut away a little of the tunnel material to get it to fit was difficult.

We had hoped to just use screws to attach the drivers, but a screw into MDF seems to be a one shot opportunity, and we have already had some reason to want to remove them. So it looks like we'll go back and use one of the t-nut or hurricane or barbed or whatever. I know I saw a thread about them a few weeks back, so I'll read that before we decide which way to go.

Finally, for finishing, my wife was very supportive about bringing these big guys into our library (which sounds a lot fancier than it is- a 28' x 24' x 8' cinderblock room on a concrete slab. But it is lined with filled bookshelves around the entire perimeter, so sound is pretty good.) until she saw the picture of the one nearly finished one and it sank in just how big. So she wants them as unobtrusive as possible, so I think we'll cover them in black matte laminate, which will pretty much match the A/V stack they'll be beside. I mention this because the roundover on the front baffle will make the front non-laminatable, or so it seems. So, I need to be sure- the roundover is for audible purposes, not just appearance, right?

Sorry if this is too long. I've got another question, but I'll put it in a new post in case it shouldn't even be in this thread.

Thanks again for all the suggestions. We did borrow a router that would take the jig, and I did get the xovers down to two boards.

Best,
Kevin

[Hollingshead]

How big a problem are 4Ohm speakers for a receiver?

I plan to use a fairly new Yamaha RX-V3900 to drive the Statements, and it is OK with 4Ohms on the mains, but the rest are supposed to be 6 Ohms or more; which makes me concerned about the center.

These are only likely to get very loud when playing music, which will only use the mains, but TV/movies will certainly work the center. If I pay attention to heat and clipping issues, would there be a problem with a 4 Ohm center? In other words, is Yamaha just erring on the side of caution, or is there a real issue with a 4 Ohm load where a receiver doesn't expect one? (Yes, there is likely an Emotiva in my future, but not my immediate future.)

Thanks,
Kevin

[---k---]

In other words, is Yamaha just erring on the side of caution, or is there a real issue with a 4 Ohm load where a receiver doesn't expect one?
Thanks,
Kevin

Probably, but hard to say. Lots of people have luck running 4 ohm speakers with regular receivers.

Looking at the impedance graph, it doesn't look that bad. It's not dipping down to below 3 ohm like certain other speakers around here do.

http://www.speakerdesignworks.com/StatementCenterChannelResponsePlots.JPG

You'll probably be fine. I guess you'll find out....

[numberoneoppa]

Speakers are looking good!

About the Receiver, I would be very careful pairing a large 4Ohm center up with an amp rated at 6Ohms. Yamaha isn't erring on the side of caution. If anything, they're stretching the truth a bit. I could be wrong, but I would definitely expedite the buy for the new Amp. =)

[Jim Holtz]

So she wants them as unobtrusive as possible, so I think we'll cover them in black matte laminate, which will pretty much match the A/V stack they'll be beside. I mention this because the roundover on the front baffle will make the front non-laminatable, or so it seems. So, I need to be sure- the roundover is for audible purposes, not just appearance, right?

Best,
Kevin

Hi Kevin,

Yes, the roundover helps smooth the frequency response. You can use a 45 degrees bevel on the sides rather than a round over and get just about the same effect. That would allow you to use the laminate and paint the baffle. Worst case if that doesn't work is to do square corners. Round or bevel is better but square will work as a last resort.

Jim

[john trials]

Nice shop! I wish I had that much room (and nice equipment).

I've found that using screws into MDF for retaining the drivers is fine. Make sure you use the correct size pilot hole for the screw you've chosen. The threads seem weak in the bare MDF, but once the MDF is sealed, the threads get strengthened. I've sealed my speakers with Seal Coat, and 50:50 wood glue:water. I prefer the glue/water mixture. It doesn't smell as bad as Seal Coat, cleans up easier, and is probably a better substrate when veneering (if using the iron/glue method).

Get some of the 50:50 glue:water mixture into the threaded screw holes, and they will be plenty tough enough. You can always try it in a scrap piece of MDF, if you are in doubt. Drill the proper diameter pilot hole for the screw, then drive the screw in. Remove the screw, and seal the MDF (at least 2 coats). Don't worry if the hole is totally filled with the fluid. It soaks in, and doesn't build up much at all. The threads will be very tough.

Maybe a note should be added to the Statement build thread regarding the tweeter cut-outs in the tunnels (if it isn't already mentioned in that long thread...I cannot remember if it's mentioned). I looked at many build threads before building mine, so I knew to cut about 1/4" from the tunnels (where the tweeter would intersect) prior to assembly. If you look at the original Statement plans, and do some math with the Fountek mechanical drawing, you'll find that there isn't enough room for the tweeter...but you've found that out anyway!

[Hollingshead]

Josh- thanks for the kind words. If the Yamaha can hold up for a few months, it should be OK. Fortunately, high volume listening will almost always be music, which will only be two channel.

John- It is a great space and Warren built it (two stories!). We're both new to speaker building, but Warren has built amost everything else. Also John, my wife has expressed some concern about the naked drivers and so I'm thinking about grillesfor the front (easily removable, of course). I'd love to study yours, but I can't get any of your pictures to load. Actually, I'd love to see all your pictures, but they won't load for me. Is there a trick I don't know? I've greatly enjoyed reading your thread, but pictures would help.

I think we've found the laminate- Wilsonarts 1595-60. Wife approved. Warren's traveling in Asia until next weekend, but we're hoping to get the first set finished soon after he's back.

Best,
Kevin

[john trials]

I'd love to study yours, but I can't get any of your pictures to load. Actually, I'd love to see all your pictures, but they won't load for me. Is there a trick I don't know? I've greatly enjoyed reading your thread, but pictures would help.

Kevin, sorry about the pictures in my build thread. There is nothing wrong on your end. The website where I uploaded my photos was hacked just before Xmas last year. The site was down for about 5 weeks. When they restored it, they lost everything from 2009, so all of the links to my photos are useless. I've been too lazy to upload my photos somewhere else and then set up new links. Now that the weather here is in the 70s, I spend much less time on the computer. I figured with all of the other Statement builds, that mine wouldn't be missed.

If you want specific photos, let me know. I would be happy to help you.

For the hidden grill mounts, I mounted the Parts Express magnets (they sell them in an 8-pack) into both the speaker enclosure and the grill. Keeping track of the polarity is very important. Also, keep the magnets as close to the surface as possible. They will have more attraction to each other if they are closer to each other. I used 4 magnets per grill. They've been holding on fine, but if I could do it again, I'd add more magnets. I'd hate to have the grills slide off and shear the surrounds.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=479250&postcount=82

I've been leaving my grills off, unless people are coming over to the house. My cherry veneer is darkening with the sunlight hitting it, and it was remaining lighter colored where the grills were blocking the sun. My family knows enough to keep their hands off the drivers, but guests don't seem to understand. I don't think most people have ever seen what's behind the grills of a speaker, so when they do, they want to poke at them, for some strange reason.

[Hollingshead]

John- sorry about the website troubles. But thanks for redirecting me to your post. Even though I had read it before, it hadn't sunk in.

For some reason, I conceived of these as frames with cloth stretched like a canvas and nothing in the middle. But now I see you not only get a less intimidating presence by covering the drivers, you're protecting them as well. But I can see that would have more effect on the sound. Interesting. I'll have to think about that.

And I'm impressed that 4 pairs of magnets would be enough to hold a 1/2" slab of MDF. They must be pretty good magnets.

If you could post or PM me a pic or two of the grilles, I would appreciate it.

Thanks for your advice,
Kevin

[john trials]

The magnets are strong. It's amazing, when you consider how small they are. When I hold the grill up to the speakers, it's hard to determine exactly where the grill lines up to the speaker. When I get close, the magnets just 'grab' the grill and pull it into place. I used magnets in the speaker cabinet AND in the grill (that's why I had to be careful with the polarity of the magnets). Some people use magnets in the cabinet, and a steel washer or screw in the grill. Also, there are all kinds of magnets on Amazon, if that's helpful (I've never tried them, though).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_p_76_1?rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aneodymium+magnet s%2Cp_76%3A1-&keywords=neodymium+magnets&ie=UTF8&qid=1269275 122

I'll give it a try with the photo. I haven't had much success with attachments!

[Hollingshead]

The pictures were great, thanks! I didn't appreciate how much you'd cut away. Our ideas aren't so different after all. I do like the look of the grills when they're on. Did you worry about what cloth to use? Can you hear a difference when they're on?


Those are some good-looking speakers. Really like the base, but I think we're going with the usual MDF stack with the cones on the bottom.

We were pretty sure that we didn't know enough about speakers or wood-working to "improve" on the design, but we thought surely we could follow instructions. Turns out even that has been a challenge.

Thanks again,
Kevin

[john trials]

I used the black grill cloth from Parts Express to cover my grill frames. I don't hear a difference, but I am not the best critic. I'm not sure I can hear subtle differences like that. I went to DIY New England and listened to many speakers, but I don't think I have a good ear for picking out problems (which is probably good...people who can hear the difference between grills/no grills must go nuts with subtle imperfections...I don't think I want that curse!).

I made the outriggers because I don't like the look of the fat-bottomed base of the Statements. I wanted to make mine without any base/outriggers, so it would be tall and thin all the way to the floor, but I couldn't find a veneer sheet big enough to cover that.

I'm glad you can see the attachments and they were helpful. I tried to do some attachments on a different post, and I could see the 'attachments' but no one else could. Hopefully soon I'll go back and repair my build thread. Let me know if you want to see any more photos.