My first project: The Girl from Ipanema

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  • Woodworker_Jon
    Member
    • Dec 2009
    • 48

    My first project: The Girl from Ipanema

    Well, I am going to do it- my first speaker project- ever! Thanks to Paul Carmody (undefinition) for the design and construction details that he has provided me through his site and through a couple of e mails that we have exchanged. (see: http://sites.google.com/site/undefin...irlfromipanema .)

    I have ordered and received the drivers and electronics and have done a little CAD work on the cabinet design but still not settled on all of the specifics yet. I am going to assemble the crossovers this weekend and build an MDF test cabinet to get started with.

    Once I get everything mounted in the cabinet is where I will get lost I am afraid. I know what I like when I hear it but not sure that I know yet exactly how to get from point A to point B once I have the cabinets sitting in front of me. I guess that I will be asking a lot of questions and consulting lots of resources in the coming weeks. I am sleeping with my copy of the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook (shhh, don't tell my wife).

    Although I am not an experienced speaker builder yet, I have to say that I am very impressed with the apparent build quality of the Dayton RS150 drivers. I picked up a couple of Alesis tweeters (PE # 279-140) while they were on sale for $10 a pop too. I figure that if I am going to pick this hobby up I better start grabbing some "extra" stuff on the cheap just to build projects for the educational experience.

    I am looking forward to documenting this process and posting it here for you guys to critique.

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    He who dies with the most tools wins.
  • BeerParty
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2008
    • 475

    #2
    Looks like you are well on your way. I am looking forward to your design and build thread. As for any help you may need, there are lot sof folks around here that will help, just ask!
    Chris

    My Statement Monitors Build
    My AviaTrix Build

    Comment

    • ---k---
      Ultra Senior Member
      • Nov 2005
      • 5202

      #3
      Loudspeaker Design Cookbook is kind of overwhelming. Go place to start, but if you're not finding your answer, feel free to ask.

      The RS drivers are very nice build quality.

      I think once you get everything in the box, that is the point you sit back and listen.
      - Ryan

      CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
      CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
      CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

      Comment

      • numberoneoppa
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2009
        • 535

        #4
        Should be fun! Keep up posted. =)
        -Josh

        That feeling when things are finally going right. Yeah, that one.

        Comment

        • Woodworker_Jon
          Member
          • Dec 2009
          • 48

          #5
          It is now 2:00 am. I went into the garage at 9:00 pm in order to spend 20 minutes soldering up my crossovers. I just came out with ONE finished crossover. Methinks I need to better my soldering skills.

          Anyway, here are some photos of the one crossover. You can see in the first photo that a drop of hot solder fell on top one of the coils. Anyone know if I should be concerned about this? Is it possible that the hot solder could have broken through the insulation?

          The back is pretty ugly- not sure how happy I am about the one soldered connection on the back (the one with the larger solid copper conductor). I might have to modify that before it is all said and done. Alright, time for bed.

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          He who dies with the most tools wins.

          Comment

          • dsrviola
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2007
            • 119

            #6
            While I'm running the risk of getting flamed, for optimum performance I wouldn't put the caps inside the inductors. Also...putting the conductors at right angles to each other is better. The inductor puts out a field along the axis of it's core. It's usually better to have those pointing away from each other and other parts. Not a big deal, but it helps.



            Cheers

            Comment

            • benchtester
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2007
              • 213

              #7
              Originally posted by dsrviola
              While I'm running the risk of getting flamed, for optimum performance I wouldn't put the caps inside the inductors. Also...putting the conductors at right angles to each other is better. The inductor puts out a field along the axis of it's core. It's usually better to have those pointing away from each other and other parts. Not a big deal, but it helps.



              Cheers
              I agree on the inductors - certainly very measurable. But placing the caps in the coils is still an open question (at least the last thread on the subject was inconclusive). I did one speaker modification where the box was already glued up and I had to fit the crossover through the tweeter hole and putting the cap in the coil helped with the crossover size. I haven't measured or heard any difference. (May help that they are parallel in the circuit.)

              The one test that I didn't do, and might show something, is to run AC current through the coil and measure an induced voltage in the cap.

              In the previous thread I asked if anyone could explain a theoretical problem with the configuration and I didn't get any takers. I had racked my brain with the "right-hand rule" and didn't come up with a significant concern.

              I will admit that having the caps inside the coils doesn't look right; I just haven't found a reason not to do it yet.

              BTW: the crossover looks pretty good for an initial effort. Rotating the coil 90 degree so that the center axis will face the front would be better theoretically and measurably. (Maybe not very noticeable in practice.)

              Comment

              • Undefinition
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2006
                • 577

                #8
                Originally posted by Woodworker_Jon
                Once I get everything mounted in the cabinet is where I will get lost I am afraid. I know what I like when I hear it but not sure that I know yet exactly how to get from point A to point B once I have the cabinets sitting in front of me.
                I'm not sure I understand what you mean. The Ipanema design was pretty carefully voiced, so it should pretty much sound like it's supposed to as soon as you get the XO and drivers hooked up and in the boxes.

                But I guess it also comes down to what you'll be listening to through them. I voiced them to sound best with home theater, Jazz, Adult Contemporary, and Classical. If you are going to listen to mostly rock or metal with them, then a re-voicing may be desired. I can help you with that, if need be, when the time comes.
                Isn't it about time we started answering rhetorical questions?
                Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Site

                Comment

                • Woodworker_Jon
                  Member
                  • Dec 2009
                  • 48

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Undefinition
                  I'm not sure I understand what you mean. The Ipanema design was pretty carefully voiced, so it should pretty much sound like it's supposed to as soon as you get the XO and drivers hooked up and in the boxes.
                  Oops, my lack of experience is already showing through. I was making an assumption that due to variations in individual drivers, different crossover components and general build variations that the project would require "tweaking" once completed. I think that I am hearing you say that since I have chosen the same drivers and am using the same crossover design (albeit it with different brand components, maybe), as long as I stick to your design the final product should be pretty darn close if not nearly identical in performance to those that you built and tested. If I understand correctly then that is fantastic news! If that is the case I might just go straight for the final cabinet build right from the beginning and not even mess with test cabinets.

                  Thanks again Paul.

                  Thank you dsrviola and benchtester for the crossover assembly tips and links. I am going to rebuild this crossover tonight with the inductors at right angles as suggested. I think that I will attempt to keep the caps out of the coils too, just for good measure. Maybe smaller wire connectors are in order- something like screw terminals perhaps. These go in pretty small cabinets so I am trying to keep the size down.

                  I hate to jump off on a tangent and hijack my own thread but a curious (aka: stupid) crossover question came to my mind while soldering this thing up last night. Why do we use large gauge, high conductivity cable from the amp to speaker connection and then step down to the tiny gauge connectors contained in crossover components without concern? Does that not create an impedance bottleneck that negates any possible gain realized by the use of large gauge speaker wire (like attaching a soda straw to the end of a fire hose)? I understand that resistance/ impedance is directly proportional to conductor length but common sense tells me that a smaller gauge wire simply has fewer metal molecules with which to pass electrons. That seems like a bottleneck to me. What am I missing?
                  He who dies with the most tools wins.

                  Comment

                  • ch83575
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2006
                    • 128

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Woodworker_Jon
                    I hate to jump off on a tangent and hijack my own thread but a curious (aka: stupid) crossover question came to my mind while soldering this thing up last night. Why do we use large gauge, high conductivity cable from the amp to speaker connection and then step down to the tiny gauge connectors contained in crossover components without concern? Does that not create an impedance bottleneck that negates any possible gain realized by the use of large gauge speaker wire (like attaching a soda straw to the end of a fire hose)? I understand that resistance/ impedance is directly proportional to conductor length but common sense tells me that a smaller gauge wire simply has fewer metal molecules with which to pass electrons. That seems like a bottleneck to me. What am I missing?
                    Cables are kind of a touchy subject round here. Even some of the most respected posters feel the wrath of the objectivists from time to time. Flame wars aside, not all "premium" cables are as thick as your wrist. Even if they look thick it can often be because of very complicated insulation techniques, not gigantic gauge wires. Good wire design is more about skin effects, field effects, insulation and their interaction than it is about resistance. Resistance does increase with temperature (for a conductor at least... most people don't make germanium wires), so you can not use very small wires and expect to pass huge amounts of current without consequences, but just look at some of the designs from companies like Nordost. They use many relatively small wires in parallel, and while I am not convinced that their lower models are tonally neutral, their flagship cables sound absolutely amazing.

                    That being said, I understand your misgivings about the internal wiring in the speaker. The only thing I can come up with to defend the fancy-pants cables is that even on my old pair of Paradigm Titans ($200 retail, really cheep crossover parts) I can still hear the differences in good and bad cables. It think it has more to do with the signal having to go through 10' of your cable but only a few inches of component leads, than the bottleneck analogy.

                    -Chad

                    Comment

                    • ---k---
                      Ultra Senior Member
                      • Nov 2005
                      • 5202

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Woodworker_Jon
                      Why do we use large gauge, high conductivity cable from the amp to speaker connection and then step down to the tiny gauge connectors contained in crossover components without concern? ... What am I missing?

                      Who does that??? Not round here!

                      I use mostly 14ga in my crossovers. Not that I'm an expert, just that is what I do based on what I've picked up from the resident experts. It is a convenient size. Good price point. Solders easy. Smaller 18 gage is okay for the tweeter - nice if your soldering to the terminals or something. The biggest thing is distance. Speaker wire from your amp to the speaker goes further, hence larger gage needed. Short distances inside a speaker, not as big of a deal.

                      Stick around and you'll see lots of recommendations for the PTFE Silver Plated Copper Wire from Apexjr.com . Real nice wire at a good price.
                      - Ryan

                      CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                      CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                      CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                      Comment

                      • Woodworker_Jon
                        Member
                        • Dec 2009
                        • 48

                        #12
                        Originally posted by ---k---
                        Who does that??? Not round here!

                        I use mostly 14ga in my crossovers.
                        Sorry ---k---, I did not communicate my question clearly. I was actually referring to the small leads that are attached to capacitors, resistors and coils themselves as being those tiny gauge parts in the crossover. I will take a peek at Apexjr.com and look at that wire you mentioned. Thanks for the tip!
                        He who dies with the most tools wins.

                        Comment

                        • Woodworker_Jon
                          Member
                          • Dec 2009
                          • 48

                          #13
                          Crossover: take two.

                          Well, it's 2:00 am again and only one crossover finished again tonight. I did have to disassemble the first one though so maybe I was a bit faster with the build. I found that the board was a little flimsy so I reinforced it with some 1/8" BB plywood I had lying around. Gave me a little more room to work with too.

                          The bottom of the board does not look as neat but the solder joints are much more sound than last night's version.

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                          He who dies with the most tools wins.

                          Comment

                          • benchtester
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2007
                            • 213

                            #14
                            Lookin' good!

                            Comment

                            • john trials
                              Senior Member
                              • Mar 2009
                              • 449

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Woodworker_Jon
                              Sorry ---k---, I did not communicate my question clearly. I was actually referring to the small leads that are attached to capacitors, resistors and coils themselves as being those tiny gauge parts in the crossover. I will take a peek at Apexjr.com and look at that wire you mentioned. Thanks for the tip!
                              re: thinner leads...Can you imagine how large those inductors would be if they were a larger diameter wire?! It would be kind of cool, but really heavy and expensive. Thinner leads on the components is not a huge concern, partly because the each component is not getting the full current flow that speaker cables get. The xover 'splits' the current between the tweeter, mid and woofer circuits. But you got it right, that the length is the major factor. Those component leads are really short compared to the wire running from your amp (and they are also solid, not stranded).

                              Cool first build. I love reading about the designs on Paul's website, and I'm very tempted to try one of his designs, too.
                              Statements: "They usually kill the desire to build anything else."

                              Comment

                              • ClosetSciFiGeek
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2009
                                • 247

                                #16
                                Good Job

                                I kind of cringed at your first crossover attempt. Like many of my projects Revision 2 is a lot better than the Original. Good job, those should serve you well.
                                "You get what you Inspect, not what you Expect"
                                -Hyman G. Rickover

                                Comment

                                • Undefinition
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Dec 2006
                                  • 577

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Woodworker_Jon
                                  I was making an assumption that due to variations in individual drivers, different crossover components and general build variations that the project would require "tweaking" once completed. I think that I am hearing you say that since I have chosen the same drivers and am using the same crossover design (albeit it with different brand components, maybe), as long as I stick to your design the final product should be pretty darn close if not nearly identical in performance to those that you built and tested.
                                  Actually, that's an excellent question you ask. My first [successful] DIY build, I was also very paranoid about tolerances. Turns out, there are a few Rules Of Thumb that might help to ease your concerns. Box design can be pretty forgiving. Sealed boxes have the most room for variance; however, even a vented box--which, before the age of computer simulation was notorious for being "hard to get right"--you can be within 10% of the parameters (internal volume, port tuning, lining/stuffing), and the speaker will pretty much sound like it's supposed to.

                                  With crossovers, I have found that being within 2-5% tolerance is close enough to call it "to spec." Anything more than +/- 5%, and I have noticed an audible difference.

                                  The consistency of the drivers that the smart folks around here use tend to fall within those tolerances. Anything that drifts away from spec more than that (whether it be in terms of Thiele/Small parameters, impedance, or Frequency Response), veteran DIYers will know to take a pass on. So rest assured that the drivers chosen in "proven" designs have passed that benchmark.

                                  I hate to jump off on a tangent and hijack my own thread but a curious (aka: stupid) crossover question came to my mind while soldering this thing up last night. Why do we use large gauge, high conductivity cable from the amp to speaker connection and then step down to the tiny gauge connectors contained in crossover components without concern? Does that not create an impedance bottleneck that negates any possible gain realized by the use of large gauge speaker wire (like attaching a soda straw to the end of a fire hose)? I understand that resistance/ impedance is directly proportional to conductor length but common sense tells me that a smaller gauge wire simply has fewer metal molecules with which to pass electrons. That seems like a bottleneck to me. What am I missing?
                                  Ooh, good point! I like it. Here's a sensible answer:
                                  It is true that resistance of a wire is a factor of its gauge, the load run through it, and its length. That is, a higher-gauge wire will measure more resistance if you use longer lengths of it--this is easy to test, even with a $10 multimeter. So for the short leads of a capacitors and resistors, the amount of resistance added by the component is VERY small (you would need a MUCH more accurate meter to measure this), and therefore negligible. However, inductors do bring their own series resistance, and this is very important. A good crossover designer will know to factor in for the series resistance (aka: DCR, or "Direct Current Resistance") of the inductors in a crossover, and often will use it to shape the response of a speaker. So you want to use the same size inductors as the original when possible because the DCR of the inductors can be thought of as another "component" in the crossover.

                                  Now, in terms of speaker cable, the goal is to transmit the signal from the amp to the speaker with nothing changing the signal along the way (it's the crossover's job to filter and EQ the sound, not the speaker cable). As I said before, a wire will have increasing series resistance as you increase its length. So the goal is to find the smallest cable that will introduce the least DCR along the way (well, that's the goal of my pocketbook, anyway).

                                  This excellent web page has a very handy table for figuring out what size speaker wire matters, in terms of it not adding any resistance to the signal. As you can see, for most normal home applications, 16 or 18 gauge will suffice, unless you're running really long lengths to your speakers
                                  Isn't it about time we started answering rhetorical questions?
                                  Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Site

                                  Comment

                                  • Woodworker_Jon
                                    Member
                                    • Dec 2009
                                    • 48

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Undefinition
                                    This excellent web page has a very handy table for figuring out what size speaker wire matters, in terms of it not adding any resistance to the signal. As you can see, for most normal home applications, 16 or 18 gauge will suffice, unless you're running really long lengths to your speakers
                                    http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable
                                    I have seen charts indicating recommended gauges for various lengths and impedances before but without sufficient explanation and data. This was quite a comprehensive page. I found the sociological part of the page very interesting too. Thanks for the link, I enjoyed reading it and gained quite a bit of knowledge from it as well.

                                    I have now finished the second crossover. The top looks identical to the first but I worked on making the solder connections and the overall design of the bottom of the board neater. I suspect that both the first and the second board should perform equally as well but the second is quite a bit more aesthetically pleasing, to me anyway. I still have some work to do to improve my abilities in this arena but I am happy with the outcome at this point.

                                    Time to work on the cabinets. I have attached a photo of the second crossover solder job and a jpg that I exported from my 3D CAD program of the cabinet design that I am proceeding forward with at this time. As always, comments and constructive criticism are appreciated.

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                                    He who dies with the most tools wins.

                                    Comment

                                    • Woodworker_Jon
                                      Member
                                      • Dec 2009
                                      • 48

                                      #19
                                      Another late night tonight. Had a Christmas music program at church and then went out to eat with my wife, my sister and niece where we ran into some friends. Didn't get into the shop until after 9:30. I got quite a bit done once I got started though. Got the baffles and the top and bottom of each of the cabinets cut out and sanded to final shape/ size. Here are some pics of the progress to this point.

                                      Dimensions:
                                      Front baffle- 12" T x 8" W x 3/4" (effective thickness to be modified)
                                      Top and Bottom- 7" W x 8" D x 3" W (at back) x 3/4"- 17 3/4" radius

                                      By the way, how do you guys post photos right in the middle of your post rather than as an attachment?

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                                      Last edited by theSven; 14 May 2023, 17:07 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                                      He who dies with the most tools wins.

                                      Comment

                                      • john trials
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Mar 2009
                                        • 449

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Woodworker_Jon
                                        By the way, how do you guys post photos right in the middle of your post rather than as an attachment?
                                        Upload your photos to a website (like Photo-bucket or similar), then insert a link to the photo in your post.
                                        Last edited by theSven; 24 July 2023, 14:20 Monday. Reason: Update text
                                        Statements: "They usually kill the desire to build anything else."

                                        Comment

                                        • benchtester
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Sep 2007
                                          • 213

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Woodworker_Jon
                                          By the way, how do you guys post photos right in the middle of your post rather than as an attachment?
                                          Alternately attach the thumbnail and then "insert image" using its address in properties.

                                          Last edited by theSven; 14 May 2023, 16:54 Sunday. Reason: Update image location

                                          Comment

                                          • ---k---
                                            Ultra Senior Member
                                            • Nov 2005
                                            • 5202

                                            #22
                                            I hate the photo-bucket accounts that people use. Two reason, after about 4-6 months the pictures seem to disappear because people delete them from their account or something. Second, people tend to put too big of photos inline. At work, I use a slow DSL line, and these photos are slow! It also increases my MB usage, and people towards to the top of the MB usage tend to get watched more.

                                            To expand on what benchtester said: attach the photo, submit the reply, view the reply, click on the attachment to view it in a new window, copy the url of the attachment from your browser, then edit your post by inserting an image using the url you just copied. It isn't as hard as it sounds.

                                            You're speakers look like they are coming along nicely. Thanks for the woodworking tips. I've learned everything I know by talking and staring at people's photos around here.
                                            Last edited by theSven; 24 July 2023, 14:20 Monday. Reason: Update text
                                            - Ryan

                                            CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                            CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                            CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                            Comment

                                            • BeerParty
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Oct 2008
                                              • 475

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Woodworker_Jon
                                              Dimensions:
                                              Front baffle- 12" T x 8" W x 3/4" (effective thickness to be modified)
                                              Top and Bottom- 7" W x 8" D x 3" W (at back) x 3/4"- 17 3/4" radius
                                              I am not familiar with the speaker design you are building, but from a quick view it looks like the original design was square. Your pictures show a tapered design. How did you match the internal volume of your boxes to the original design?
                                              Chris

                                              My Statement Monitors Build
                                              My AviaTrix Build

                                              Comment

                                              • Woodworker_Jon
                                                Member
                                                • Dec 2009
                                                • 48

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by BeerParty
                                                I am not familiar with the speaker design you are building, but from a quick view it looks like the original design was square. Your pictures show a tapered design. How did you match the internal volume of your boxes to the original design?
                                                I am pretty close to the original internal volume, 6.89L vs. 7.0L for the original. I discussed my design theory (but not the exact dimensions) with the speaker designer, undefinition, who gave me the thumbs up on almost any sealed box dimension reasonably close to his original design so I felt safe with this. I would have preferred to have been a little OVER rather than under but alas I made a mistake in my calculation of the area inside the arc in the design phase and I ended up slightly under (somehow I calculated the area within each arc twice ops: ). Another good lesson learned here- calculate two or three times if I have to but make sure that my formula and the answer are correct before proceeding with the cabinet design. I suspect that I got lucky this time.

                                                Thanks for the instructions on pasting photos into the body of the thread post- I will try that with the next photos that I submit.
                                                He who dies with the most tools wins.

                                                Comment

                                                • Undefinition
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Dec 2006
                                                  • 577

                                                  #25


                                                  Dang! That's impressive. It's the first time I've ever seen anyone do the curvy sides without using a template.


                                                  And yeah, with sealed woofers, you can be pretty far off in box volume and still hit the mark. (Could you really hear a difference if the box Qtc was .649 versus .643?) That's why sealed speakers were popular for all those years before the advent of computer simulation!

                                                  Being off by .11 liters is definitely close enough for Rock 'n Roll. It's a deviation of 1.5%; that's pretty good! :T
                                                  Last edited by theSven; 14 May 2023, 16:54 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                                                  Isn't it about time we started answering rhetorical questions?
                                                  Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Site

                                                  Comment

                                                  • BeerParty
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Oct 2008
                                                    • 475

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Woodworker_Jon
                                                    I am pretty close to the original internal volume, 6.89L vs. 7.0L for the original. I discussed my design theory (but not the exact dimensions) with the speaker designer, undefinition, who gave me the thumbs up on almost any sealed box dimension reasonably close to his original design so I felt safe with this.
                                                    That's fine, I'm sure that is close enough. I looked at your render again, and it looks like you are increasing the depth of the cabinet to make up for the loss in volume - correct?

                                                    I was thinking about building some cabinets with the rounded sides so am watching your build with interest. If I did it I would increase the height of the cabinet and keep the depth the same, I was curious if that was your plan. There are a few threads with rounded side cabinets, but I am interested in seeing more. I'm not a woodworker, so I am trying to learn from everyone else's "mistakes".
                                                    Chris

                                                    My Statement Monitors Build
                                                    My AviaTrix Build

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Woodworker_Jon
                                                      Member
                                                      • Dec 2009
                                                      • 48

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Undefinition
                                                      Dang! That's impressive. It's the first time I've ever seen anyone do the curvy sides without using a template.
                                                      Thanks Paul. It's 6 of one 1/2 dozen of another. Doing it with a "compass" attachment like I did saves the time of creating a one-time use template but requires that you accurately measure and set it up the first time. I chose to use my Rotozip as the router rather than one of my real routers and wish I had used the latter. I could have finished the arcs in 15 minutes with a router. I had to make three or four progressively deeper cuts with the underpowered tool I chose so it took a lot more time. Less wasted stock though, which is why I chose to go with this tool and the 1/8" bit in the first place.

                                                      Originally posted by BeerParty
                                                      I looked at your render again, and it looks like you are increasing the depth of the cabinet to make up for the loss in volume - correct?
                                                      That is correct BeerParty. So far the curvy side project is going well, cutting the tops and bottoms accurately is really the most critical step in the process in my estimation as that is the foundation upon which the sides will be shaped. I'll keep posting as I go along and will document it as completely as possible.

                                                      I have a design idea- kind of a rip off of some of the Usher speakers. I have done a rendering of my "new and improved" cabinet design. Not sure if I like it or not- it is a little arsty-fartsy in a way. Give me some feedback on whether you like the addition of the trim panel on the back and sides if you have an opinion.

                                                      Finally, I got the backs cut and beveled to match the sides and got them glued and clamped up.

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                                                      He who dies with the most tools wins.

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                                                      • BeerParty
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Oct 2008
                                                        • 475

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Woodworker_Jon
                                                        I have a design idea- kind of a rip off of some of the Usher speakers. I have done a rendering of my "new and improved" cabinet design. Not sure if I like it or not- it is a little arsty-fartsy in a way. Give me some feedback on whether you like the addition of the trim panel on the back and sides if you have an opinion.
                                                        My opinion: the "Usher like" design only works if you are going to paint the speaker (solid colors for the upper and lower sections). If you are going to use wood veneer I would leave it simple - the curved sides with wood will look better without dressing them up.
                                                        Chris

                                                        My Statement Monitors Build
                                                        My AviaTrix Build

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                                                        • ch83575
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Sep 2006
                                                          • 128

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Woodworker_Jon
                                                          I have a design idea- kind of a rip off of some of the Usher speakers. I have done a rendering of my "new and improved" cabinet design. Not sure if I like it or not- it is a little arsty-fartsy in a way. Give me some feedback on whether you like the addition of the trim panel on the back and sides if you have an opinion.
                                                          My vote would be for the first design. I usually prefer a minimalist design.

                                                          Your build looks really great so far!

                                                          Chad

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Woodworker_Jon
                                                            Member
                                                            • Dec 2009
                                                            • 48

                                                            #30
                                                            I ran across a piece of Bocote lumber that begged to be a part of my speaker cabinets earlier tonight. I have a hard time passing by a piece of wood that begs so I picked it up. Looks like this might become the outer surface on the baffle.

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                                                            He who dies with the most tools wins.

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                                                            • Hank
                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                              • Jul 2002
                                                              • 1345

                                                              #31
                                                              because the each component is not getting the full current flow that speaker cables get.
                                                              That's the main answer to your speaker cable versus crossover component gauge differences.

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Dennis H
                                                                Ultra Senior Member
                                                                • Aug 2002
                                                                • 3791

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by ---k---
                                                                To expand on what benchtester said: attach the photo, submit the reply, view the reply, click on the attachment to view it in a new window, copy the url of the attachment from your browser, then edit your post by inserting an image using the url you just copied. It isn't as hard as it sounds.
                                                                Way too many clicks. Attach the photo and, before you close the attachment window, right click the attachment and 'copy link location.' When you close the attachment window and get back to the message window, click the 'insert image' button and paste in the link. Or, if you have a bunch of attached pics, they will be listed at the bottom of the message window and you can do the right-click thing there to get their addresses as you need them.

                                                                Comment

                                                                • ch83575
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Sep 2006
                                                                  • 128

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Hank
                                                                  That's the main answer to your speaker cable versus crossover component gauge differences.
                                                                  Not to belabor the point, there are obviously many reasons for this, but I have always been under the impression that the tweeter receives only a tiny fraction of the total RMS power delivered by the amp. If you think purely in terms of work (in a linear system Work = Force x Distance), the tweeter diaphragm is much lighter and is moved over a much smaller distance than the woofer, therefor the power delivered to the woofer must be exponentially higher than the tweeter. If this is the case then the series woofer components (and their tiny component leads) receive what amounts to the full brunt of the current flow. I could have this wrong, but it makes sense to me.

                                                                  edit: after giving this more thought I do not think the above is true. A tweeter uses 1W to produce say 90db of SPL while a woofer produces only a few db less with the same power, maybe one order of magnitude at most. So, while the work perspective is still true the woofer with its much larger voice coil must be able to produce proportionally more force per watt of power. So... never mind. I only leave the above as evidence of my confusion over the matter.

                                                                  -Chad
                                                                  Last edited by ch83575; 15 December 2009, 12:44 Tuesday.

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • ---k---
                                                                    Ultra Senior Member
                                                                    • Nov 2005
                                                                    • 5202

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Dennis H
                                                                    Way too many clicks. Attach the photo and, before you close the attachment window, right click the attachment and 'copy link location.' When you close the attachment window and get back to the message window, click the 'insert image' button and paste in the link. Or, if you have a bunch of attached pics, they will be listed at the bottom of the message window and you can do the right-click thing there to get their addresses as you need them.
                                                                    Wow, I didn't know that you could do it that way. Thanks. That is helpful.
                                                                    - Ryan

                                                                    CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                                                    CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                                                    CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

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                                                                    • Undefinition
                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                      • Dec 2006
                                                                      • 577

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by ch83575
                                                                      Not to belabor the point, there are obviously many reasons for this, but I have always been under the impression that the tweeter receives only a tiny fraction of the total RMS power delivered by the amp. If you think purely in terms of work (in a linear system Work = Force x Distance), the tweeter diaphragm is much lighter and is moved over a much smaller distance than the woofer, therefor the power delivered to the woofer must be exponentially higher than the tweeter. If this is the case then the series woofer components (and their tiny component leads) receive what amounts to the full brunt of the current flow. I could have this wrong, but it makes sense to me.
                                                                      Try not to think of wire like a hose. Heavier gauge wire does not mean it "carries more signal." It will carry more wattage before being lost to heat (eg: resistance) than a thinner wire would. But audio-level signals are very low-wattage compared to, say, a toaster, or an air conditioner... THAT's where heavier-guage wire is more important, unless you intend to set the house on fire.
                                                                      Isn't it about time we started answering rhetorical questions?
                                                                      Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Site

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                                                                      • numberoneoppa
                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                        • Sep 2009
                                                                        • 535

                                                                        #36
                                                                        I could be wrong, I'm just trying to remember my physics II class, but you can push a gazillion Watts through a 20 gauge wire if the current is low enough (high voltage). The only need for large guage wire if for high current situations. Hence the power/transmission lines used by the power company being so (relatively) thin because they carry the power @ 40,000+V.
                                                                        -Josh

                                                                        That feeling when things are finally going right. Yeah, that one.

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                                                                        • john trials
                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                          • Mar 2009
                                                                          • 449

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by numberoneoppa
                                                                          I could be wrong, I'm just trying to remember my physics II class, but you can push a gazillion Watts through a 20 gauge wire if the current is low enough (high voltage). The only need for large guage wire if for high current situations. Hence the power/transmission lines used by the power company being so (relatively) thin because they carry the power @ 40,000+V.
                                                                          Higher voltage requires more or better insulation, higher currents require more conductor.
                                                                          Statements: "They usually kill the desire to build anything else."

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • Woodworker_Jon
                                                                            Member
                                                                            • Dec 2009
                                                                            • 48

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Wow, thanks for the overwhelming response to my wire gauge vs impedance question. I think the take home message for me (at least until I can better understand the physics of electricity and magnetism) is that for the short length of the crossover leads and wires it essentially is immaterial. I will probably still buy the heaviest gauge inductors that seem reasonably priced when I buy crossover components, just because it seems like the safe way (there is a lot of length in that coil) but I won't get too worked up about it. I will also try to minimize the length of the small gauge leads on the crossover by using larger gauge connector wires when I build the my crossovers, just because I am anal and I can, even though it might be overkill.

                                                                            On the build update, I got the chance to spend a few minutes in the shop today to split the Bocote board and see if it had good potential for a nice bookmatched baffle, I think it looks pretty promising. I also played around with some fiddleback Anigre veneer that I have had lying around for a couple of years and a red dye sample that I mixed up- trying to get the effect I am looking for (although this photo is of a different species, oak, this is the color effect that I was shooting for http://loutrixrecords.com/images/the...g/finish-1.jpg). Not so sure that I am liking the idea of red dye now that I see it and the Bocote side by side. I might play around with some yellow dye as that would definitely compliment the Bocote. I think the project is moving along much more rapidly than I anticipated when I first started it but the time consuming part, the finishing, is not far around the next corner.


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                                                                            He who dies with the most tools wins.

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • ---k---
                                                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                                                              • Nov 2005
                                                                              • 5202

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by Woodworker_Jon
                                                                              I will probably still buy the heaviest gauge inductors that seem reasonably priced when I buy crossover components, just because it seems like the safe way (there is a lot of length in that coil) but I won't get too worked up about it.
                                                                              No. You need to buy the inductor spec'ed by the crossover designer. Changing an size inductor can affect the frequency response. For example, in a woofer crossover, changing from a 12 ga to an 18ga inductor will typically reduce the bass output slightly, and obviously vice verse.

                                                                              Confusing, huh. You'll get there. You're wood looks great. I wish I had the shop, time, and ability to turn out great looking veneered boxes as you appear to. I agree the orange wood looks funky in the photo.
                                                                              - Ryan

                                                                              CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                                                              CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                                                              CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • ClosetSciFiGeek
                                                                                Senior Member
                                                                                • Oct 2009
                                                                                • 247

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Beautiful Wood

                                                                                Wood like that talks to me. Great pictures. Can't wait to see what you do with it.
                                                                                "You get what you Inspect, not what you Expect"
                                                                                -Hyman G. Rickover

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • Undefinition
                                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                                  • Dec 2006
                                                                                  • 577

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by Woodworker_Jon
                                                                                  I dunno. I think that's beautiful, but maybe that's because I play drums and guitar. A finish like that would take a $600 guitar and suddenly make it cost $1200!

                                                                                  Speaking of which, I have some fiddleback anigre that is currently unfinished. What are my options? How can I make it pop like yours?

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                                                                                  Isn't it about time we started answering rhetorical questions?
                                                                                  Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Site

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • numberoneoppa
                                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                                    • Sep 2009
                                                                                    • 535

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    No, you're right, the two don't go together, but independently, they both look nice. =)
                                                                                    -Josh

                                                                                    That feeling when things are finally going right. Yeah, that one.

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • Woodworker_Jon
                                                                                      Member
                                                                                      • Dec 2009
                                                                                      • 48

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by Undefinition
                                                                                      ...maybe that's because I play drums and guitar. A finish like that would take a $600 guitar and suddenly make it cost $1200!

                                                                                      Speaking of which, I have some fiddleback anigre that is currently unfinished. What are my options? How can I make it pop like yours?
                                                                                      Aha- another guitar player- excellent! I understand your comment about the $600 goes to $1200 comment- I own a couple of "10 top" PRS guitars myself and that top jacks the price tag significantly.

                                                                                      You would be amazed at how little work was involved in the preparing the veneer sample in the photo. The trick, in my opinion, to making the grain pop involves the use of the following: shellac-based sealer- colored wood dye(s) (not stain) and a nice GLOSSY finish. All that I did to the veneer in the pic is to hit it with some shellac sanding sealer tinted with bright red TransTint (dye based tint).

                                                                                      To further increase the "pop" you can do a two-tone dye job (too much detail to go into here but a very easy job to undertake) followed by gloss finish. The glossier and thicker the finish the deeper the "3D" pattern of the wood will appear. Anigre responds REALLY well to this treatment as do many others.

                                                                                      Thanks Oppa. I agree, I like each on its own but not together. I have a test sample in my shop for an dark amber/yellow two tone that is gonna be a winner. Out of town tonight or I would post a pic.
                                                                                      He who dies with the most tools wins.

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • Woodworker_Jon
                                                                                        Member
                                                                                        • Dec 2009
                                                                                        • 48

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        A quick update- here is a shot of the amber/yellow veneer that I am playing with. I think this has some real potential.

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                                                                                        He who dies with the most tools wins.

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                                                                                        • Woodworker_Jon
                                                                                          Member
                                                                                          • Dec 2009
                                                                                          • 48

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Been out of touch for a few days. Build is still progressing- pictures coming soon. Have to go out of town for Christmas tomorrow morning so the brakes are thrown on the project for a few days. One box almost complete sans the veneer and baffle beautification (drivers and crossover not installed yet). Lots of pictures to post of the box build when I get the time.

                                                                                          I upgraded my Denon receiver with a Rotel 5 channel amp (RB-985) this week (on my Paradigm Reference Series 5.1 system)... Holy Smoke! What a well spent $350 on the amp. Going by to look at the new Emotiva Processor in Nashville on the way out of town tomorrow morning. Looking forward to moving this project to completion and starting the next speaker build. I AM HOOKED like a junkie already.
                                                                                          He who dies with the most tools wins.

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