Khancenter not in media stand

[BlueBeardo]

I am looking to to use the Khancenter, but not in a media stand. I would like to put it on top of my stand. ---k--- pointed out that the speaker might not be ideal if it is not placed with a shelf above and below it. I was hoping to get some input from cjd on whether or not I need to adjust the crossover or box design.

Here are two pictures where the center will go:

[---k---]

I've seen this. I'm waiting for CJD to respond before putting my foot in my mouth.

[cjd]

A tweak would definitely be preferred. I took measurements this way even!

Unfortunately, every set of speaker design files I have older than early 2010 will not open on any of my computers any more. I've been digging through backups hoping to find some that work, but no luck so far.

[JonMarsh]

Unfortunately, every set of speaker design files I have older than early 2010 will not open on any of my computers any more. I've been digging through backups hoping to find some that work, but no luck so far.

Ouch!! :E :boohoo:

That's gotta hurt! Is it an update to one of your design programs, or a backup issue?

[cjd]

I'm not sure, to be honest. Given that it's every single backup, and it's only the Speaker Workshop files having issues (all photos, images, etc. are fine) I'm going to dig out an older Windows XP computer and try it out, since I'm on all Windows7 64bit at this point everywhere else. I suspect it may just be a system thing, but can't be sure.

It also may be all the designs I did where I actually used Speaker Workshop to measure: so I may try changing some settings in that area before trying to open the files. I may have to find my old measurement rig, as the configuration settings are actually embedded in the files, not the program, so I'm suspecting this.

My backups are full drive dump (to zip) to (hot-swap and on rotation) hard drives. Incredibly unlikely to be a data problem, only with the .swf files, and only the older ones. So there's hope.

[joeybutts]

Not meaning to hijack, but is the Dayton RS WMTW Center within the same constraints of needing to be in a confined space?

[cjd]

The WMTW I did, as far as I know, does not have this requirement.

[BlueBeardo]

I appreciate you looking cjd. If I can do anything let me know.

[---k---]

CJD,

What is you area of biggest concern? Is it the baffle step or up higher?

[cjd]

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think it's going to be a huge difference - certainly nowhere near the commercial speaker I just measured (which is reasonably flat, but has a nasty 10dB dip from like 2kHz-4kHz and a very strong breakup on the mid-woofers that's only attenuated ~10dB as well... I think it just introduced a peak that may be audible as slight harshness. I'm probably being far too picky.

[BlueBeardo]

Is it really that big of a deal then? I'm definitely not a sound engineer and I don't have trained ears. If you don't really notice a difference, I will most certainly not. Should I go ahead with the original design and just keep it close to the wall?

[mischmat]

A tweak would definitely be preferred. I took measurements this way even!

Unfortunately, every set of speaker design files I have older than early 2010 will not open on any of my computers any more. I've been digging through backups hoping to find some that work, but no luck so far.

Have you tried running it in compatibility mode for XP SP3, and as administrator?

[---k---]

I'm just trying to educate myself on what your thinking the problem is going to be. I can see baffle step being slightly different, which I would say just use a 15ga inductor on the woofer. But, I am not sure if there would be differences higher up in the mid and tweeter. These probably would be the too picky area.

BTW, what commercial speaker did you just measure? Post some measurements!

[cjd]

Have you tried running it in compatibility mode for XP SP3, and as administrator?

Yeah. I'm pretty sure it's due to the files having embedded configuration stuff for the measurement side of things, and my computer(s) having incompatible soundcards. Once I realized it was all the files where I'd done measurement in SpeakerWorkshop I started suspecting this. Hope to dig out the old computer - 99% sure I still have it around somewhere exactly as it was.

Commercial speaker was a Klipsch center, the ones with the copper colored drivers. My aunt reported having some problems, but I suspect it was a loose connection. Drivers are a pain to integrate, though they have at least made an attempt to go 2.5-way to minimize off-axis null issues. Crossover components are at the low end of how we budget around here (iron core inductors for the mid-woofers) but all poly (no electrolytic) caps. I didn't do off-axis measurements horizontally, maybe I should. This may be like my surrounds, which have an issue directly on-axis. Except that this null lives vertically no matter where you are, so above/below would still have the suck-out.

C

[CWH&R]

Center

I have had mine running for about a week now and I can tell it is alittle bass shy and I have it up too the back wall, It still sounds very clear and can handle alot of power, just a tad bass shy compaired to my Garnacha's. If I pull it away from the wall the bass does get thinner sounding. To me it is not a huge deal as it still sounds better than any center that I have ever owned and I have all 5 of my channels sealed and using 2- 12" RS subs sealed for the low end and am over happy with the final. I would build it as is and keep the x-over were you can get too it to make changes as I did.

[cjd]

Well, yeah. The Garnacha is rather full on the bass compared to my usual as well, so I can only imagine the Khancenter is quite different - especially if you also ported the Garnacha but built the Khancenter sealed.

[---k---]

I have had mine running for about a week now and I can tell it is alittle bass shy and I have it up too the back wall, It still sounds very clear and can handle alot of power, just a tad bass shy compaired to my Garnacha's. If I pull it away from the wall the bass does get thinner sounding. To me it is not a huge deal as it still sounds better than any center that I have ever owned and I have all 5 of my channels sealed and using 2- 12" RS subs sealed for the low end and am over happy with the final. I would build it as is and keep the x-over were you can get too it to make changes as I did.

I'm glad you like it. Did you keep your box the same as mine? And what size inductor did you use on the woofer? Both can be used to boost the bass a little.

With subs, not sure how much the bass matters... especially if using something like Audysse.

[CWH&R]

Center

All five speahers are sealed, and the center does sound great even with the way it is.

I built it 12" Tall X 14" deep X 24.5 wide and all exterior walls are 1.25 thick.

[cjd]

I probably need to update my sig to note that I'm a bit of a perfectionist... except when it comes to my woodworking. I probably just have to change the response disclaimer from +-1.5dB to +-3dB. I do think it's within that range of "small difference" though.

C

[---k---]

This is a 15 ga inductor from PE that has about .3 ohm less DCR.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?PartNumber=255-434&DID=7

Erseaudio.com has a 14ga that has about .5 ohm less. That is like removing a .5 ohm resistor from in front of the woofer.

An ironcore will have about .75 ohm less.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?Partnumber=266-910

Those are ways to experiment and increase the response from the woofer. Minor changes, but I think that is what we're talking about. Even mine isn't a bass monster. It was never intended to be. It was designed to be clear and concise and let the sub to the fun work.

Also, it should be noted that famed audio researcher / designer Floyd Tool in his book Sound Reproduction talks about bsc and his opinion is that it can be addressed with EQ. Something like Audyssey will work well.

[cjd]

Also, yeah. That. Inductor tricks always help for half a dB or even 1.

[BlueBeardo]

The 15 ga from PE should be a direct replacement for the 2.7 listed in the design thread right? I don't have to change any other components to accommodate the change? I'll give that one a try. I have most of the parts, just waiting for the last few to come in. I'll try to sneak this inductor in on the order I just placed.

[---k---]

Exactly. Just swap out the 2.7 18 ga for the 2.7 - 15 ga with no other change. It will make a subtle increase in bass. The iron core bigger increase. The 14 ga from Erse, somewhere in between. It is hard to know which is the best, even with models. Sorry we took the long road to get to this recommendation. I think CJD totally forgot the design called for a 18 ga inductor, since he normally is a slave to 14ga or thicker. I'll try and add a note to the build thread 1st post.

[fbov]

Is it really that big of a deal then? I'm definitely not a sound engineer and I don't have trained ears. If you don't really notice a difference, I will most certainly not. Should I go ahead with the original design and just keep it close to the wall?

It all depends how sensitive you are to overall tonal balance. I didn't need any training to hear excess BSC where none was needed, long before I knew how to spell BSC. In general, an absence is easier to deal with than an excess, peaks are more audible than dips.

I have had mine running for about a week now and I can tell it is alittle bass shy and I have it up too the back wall, It still sounds very clear and can handle alot of power, just a tad bass shy compaired to my Garnacha's. If I pull it away from the wall the bass does get thinner sounding. ...

Conversely, our past listening experiences color our new ones. If you're used to poor quality speakers, extended bass has "something missing" and clean treble "has no sparkle." Our ears focus our minds on the message - the song - and accomodate variations in sound quality. Otherwise, how do you explain AM radio?

Have fun,
Frank

[BlueBeardo]

Just a note, I went with the 2.7 - 15 ga. My build thread is located here.

[cjd]

Finally got around to getting access to those files!

The answer: go to 14ga or 15ga inductor on the woofers, and bump the resistor on the mids up to 5 or 6 ohm.

[---k---]

Finally got around to getting access to those files!

The answer: go to 14ga or 15ga inductor on the woofers, and bump the resistor on the mids up to 5 or 6 ohm.

Bump the 2.5ohm resistor up to 5 or 6 ohm? Wow, that seems bigger than I expected.

[CWH&R]

Thanks CJD, Will get too it soon.