need help choosing

[aqus]

I need a little help.
I am going the DIY route and there are so many choices I don't know which to choose.
Here is what I already have.
Amp/receiver. Yamaha HTR 6180 or RX-V863 usa version 105wx7
Subwoofer: Velodyne 15'' DLS-5000R
Satellites: home made using 6.5'' max pentivent and unknown dome tweeter. Sound descent so will keep for now.

Needs: I want to build a center channel and front speakers.
50% of the time for movies and 50% for music. Type of music I listen to is varied. Listen to Genesis, jazz, smooth, soft rock and being a DJ I also will be listening to Dance, techno etc. I presently have 12'' woofers in the front with piezzo tweeters(I know I know), bass is nice but mids and highs are awful.So I would like something that is crisp but at the same time can take volume and bass. Although quality of sound is most important.

I have seen many projects from here and partsexpress but can't decide, which to pair together.
budget is not really any issue.
Thanks in advance for your help

[cobblepots]

I love how you metion Genesis as their own genre! I love it :T . Personally, having only built the Mini Statements, I can't say too much about any other designs here. However, I love them. They could easily fit your description. I'll go ahead and put in my vote for them (or the full sized if you want extreme volume).

They sound very good with everything I've thrown at them from acoustical jazz such as Jesse Cook, rock (Pink Floyd, Tool, Muse, Metallica...) classical, live music, the Matrix... They are very smooth speakers and have very sharp, clear highs thanks to the ribbon tweeter. The matching center channel is a huge plus for tonality and SPL IMO.

What size room are you putting them in?

[aqus]

the living room is 20 x 18 but connected to an open space so hard to tell.

[cjd]

One of the issues likely to crop up here is whether the Yamaha can handle the impedance load - most of the designs around here are 4ohm.

Budget will play a role.

The big Dayton 3-ways I've done will blow your socks off if you ask them to but are VERY difficult loads (all things considered).

The Khanspires will rock out as well and if you're using a sub I would recommend them over the bigger 3-ways. I think they can actually go a bit louder before hitting their limits on the tweeter since the RS150's cross a bit higher.

I suspect the Statemens will also (I haven't read of anyone cranking these to 120dB+ like I test... ) - so many similarities between them all, and the Statements are also excellent.

C

[aqus]

I have noticed most designs don't show the Impedance, watts rms handling and spl sensitivity. How can I figure it out? I can see it from the individual drivers but once all together with the crossover I can't figure it out.

[ThomasW]

Look at the impedance of the woofer configuration.

For example, if there are 2-8 ohm woofers wired in parallel it's a 4 ohm design

[aqus]

Thanks. I knew that 2-8 ohms wired in parallel would give me 4 ohms and 2-8ohms wired in series becomes 16 ohms, 2-8ohms in series wired in parallel with 2 more 8 ohms in series is back to 8ohms. But wasn't sure if mids tweeters and crossovers had some impact.
How about total wattage and SPL ratings?

[ThomasW]

The impedance of the woofer/woofers section is the impedance of the system.

DIY systems seldom have system efficiency/sensitivity ratings. For reference look at the individual ratings of the drivers.

[aqus]

DIY mostly 4 ohms

I searched and didn't get a clear answer to this.
Why are most DIY speakers 4-ohm designs?
I know my Yamaha amp can run 4-ohm for front speakers but suggests min 6-ohms for center and satellites.
I already have my satelittes which are 8-ohms and plan to build front and center speakers.
I know about wiring to get different ohms. What I don't get is why so many speakers sold at BB like the Klipsch Synergy C2,Klipsch Synergy F3 are dual woofers and are rated 8 ohms. Are they 16 ohms in parallel or 4 ohms in series?
Also can,t find the definitions of MTM MT SS BBMT MMT etc
Thanks

[ThomasW]

I merged your threads. No need to have two threads both basically covering the same ground..

Why are most DIY speakers 4-ohm designs?

Because most DIY woofers/midwoofers are 8 ohm

What I don't get is why so many speakers sold at BB like the Klipsch Synergy C2,Klipsch Synergy F3 are dual woofers and are rated 8 ohms. Are they 16 ohms in parallel or 4 ohms in series?

These companies have drivers custom made, so yes they're using 2-16 ohm drivers.

Also can,t find the definitions of MTM MT SS BBMT MMT etc

MTM = Mid-Tweeter-Mid
SS is usually referring to the company Scan-Speak

I've never seen BBMT...

[kingpin]

My Yamaha rxv1700 couldn't run cjd's large 3-ways for long. especially if the volume was turned up for a while.

just thought i would add that.

Mike

[cjd]

My Yamaha rxv1700 couldn't run cjd's large 3-ways for long. especially if the volume was turned up for a while.

just thought i would add that.

Mike

Not much can. They're particularly difficult to drive.

[aqus]

Ok I will probably go with either:

http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/unicc/index.cfm

or

http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/cynosure/index.cfm

since they are 6-8ohms.
After reading my amp specs it says I can use 4 ohms for fronts but wants min 6 ohms for center and surrounds.
My surrounds are 8-0hms. Is it a problem to have 8 ohms as surrounds 6 ohms center and 4 ohm fronts? if not what would you recommend as fronts to go with either of the center channels chosen above? Statements? khanspires? RS TMWW? Dayton RS 3-ways? or any other suggestions...
I see both the khanspires and statements both have an available center but both seem 4 ohms.
What are your thoughts on centers chosen?

[cjd]

Check out Curt C's work - Triune or Tri-Trix, to go with the UniCC. Also check out the Impresarios.

I can't recommend anything to go with the Cynosure. Rather, I can't recommend the Cynosure, really. Tiny little drivers, you'll need some bottom end reinforcement at a pretty high frequency. And that's the start of its difficulties. It has its place, but pursuit of high end sound quality isn't one of them.

[Jim Holtz]

I'd not recommend the Statements or the Khans until you upgrade your receiver to an amp/preamp combination so you can handle 4 ohm loads.

HERE is what I'd recommend. They sound great and are inexpensive. They are budget speakers but a huge step up from what you currently have based on your original post. I would definitely recommend that you have a center and mains designed/voiced by the same person.

BTW, the Cynosur or what ever it's called that you linked to is a terrible design. It breaks a bunch of laws of physics. That's not what you want.

HTH

Jim

[aqus]

Thanks for the replies.
I am not looking necessarily looking for budgets.
Just bought the Yamaha amp, thought I was doing a good purchase.
I might take a chance with the UniCC since they are 8 ohms.
Anybody heard these?
The fronts suggested seem OK but rather get something better. going from 12'' to 6.5'' scares me a little. That is why I was looking at dual 8''.

Again cost is not an issue.
Just need 6-8 ohm center
According to Yamaha I could go with 4 ohm fronts.???
Need something which will make the effort put into it worth it and will keep long term.
Should i just go back to the older styles 2 or 3 ways with larger woofers?
Just spend 3 days researching and it is driving me nuts.

[cjd]

The TriTrix/Triune is a good match for the Uni-CC.

Got pre-outs on that Yamaha? You probably do. Add an Emotiva XPA-3 (on sale at $499 right now and will crank 300W per channel into 4ohms...) for your 3 fronts and build the Khan series or similar. Note that I've done a horizontal center channel using dual 8's + RS150 (like the Khans) that'll be a good match for the Khanspires, though it's not officially part of that series... Ryan just needed something a bit smaller for his setup.

Dang, now I'm thinking I should get an XPA-3.

[ThomasW]

If either of the receivers has pre-amp outputs and if "budget is not really any issue", buy a Behringer A500 amp. Use it to power your mains, The A500 will drive 4 ohm loads 24/7 no problem. Then you can choose from any of the projects in the Missions Accomplished section.

[JAS]

I can comment on the Tribunes and UniCC. I have been running them as mains, surrounds, and center for a year or two with a Sony 5 channel receiver that is rated for 8ohms or better. Never had any problems even at high levels for extended time.

They are considered budget speakers in the DIY world but don't let that concern you. They will beat commercial offerings under 1k. Don't let your concern about going to small 5-1/4" drivers bother you. I was in the same situation before I built mine except I had 15" woofers. Two 6inch woofers will equal one 12" and I know for sure they will surpass your current speakers even though they are smaller. You will see better highs and mids like what you stated you are after but still maintain the lows that you now have. A powered sub is nice to have to support the bottom end especially for HT. The center is really sweet and I wish the Tribunes or Tritrix used the same size woofer. It tends to play a bit louder and more bass.

[JonW]

aqus,

First, listen to Thomas. He is wise. [But don't tell him I said that. ] If budget is really not an issue, buy a beefy external amp (or amps). Many, many amps to choose from out there at every budget level. Then use the receiver as a prepro. Should do the job very well. Then you can likely run any of the designs posted here.

Second, if you really want to run from the amp in your receiver, look at a good MT design. There are several on the Missions Accomplished page here. I can tell you that I built an MT speaker for which the impedance never drops below 6.6 ohms. I have a Yamaha receiver (RX-V659) that is not one of the more powerful ones out there. And it can play my MT's cleanly and much louder than I ever care to listen. You'd be surprised at how much bass you can get from a good MT. Also, MT speakers tend to be smaller so you could use one as your center and have 3 identical speakers across the front.

[aqus]

Ok. I think the best thing to do is go to my nearest BB and listen to different speakers and sizes. And maybe I will get convinced that bigger is not necessarily needed for me.
I saw another thread from a technician who has the same amp and bought the tech manual and said that although the manual says you can use 4ohms in front only, when you do switch the mode on the amp all 7 channels switch to lower ohms not only the fronts. He thinks they ask for 4 ohms in front only not to overload the whole system.
I also spoke to a tech from Yamaha and said the amp can run 4 ohms no problem in fronts and 6 ohms everywhere else. If I am using 8 ohm surrounds and if I put an 8ohm center he sees no problem at all. Naturally he says if I play the amp at +10db (max 16.5db on the amp) for long periods then I will overheat the amp. But if I stay close to 0db no problem.
I do have a 5 year warranty on the amp so if I blow it not really a problem but don't want to damage the speakers.
As for the extra amp or amps I will see if I do decide on 4 ohm fronts and the amp doesn't sustain my needs I will install power amps. The ones mentioned so far are they with fans, cause I have an old QSC I used for dj'ing and the fans are always on...
Also for the UniCC what price range should I compare them to what is available at BB.
Thanks for all your help I will be going shopping now and will post my thoughts if anyone is interested.
Can't wait to fire up the radial saw...

[ThomasW]

The ones mentioned so far are they with fans, cause I have an old QSC I used for dj'ing and the fans are always on...

The Behringer A500 I linked to is passively cooled = no fan

[aqus]

Ok I like the statements and after talking with Curt C he says that the center statement impedance curve is around 6-ohm and commercially these speakers can actually be sold as 8-ohms. So if backs and center stay over 6ohms I could go with 4ohm towers
The only inconvenience of the statements is how tall the towers are. I could go with the mini statements but liked the specs of the RS225 used in the statements and the RS TMWW.
So leaning towards RS TMWW and it's matching center but can't find any impedance curve for them.

Also is there a way to calculate how much wattage these speakers can take? I know I can't overpower them with the Yamaha(besides maybe clipping), but if I go with an external amp don't want to over do it.

Thanks again guys

[aqus]

I have posted a crossover parts comparison from PE and Solen( a local dealer http://www.solen.ca/pub/)
Some values are not exactly the same as the original design found at PE.
Can someone tell me if any noticeable difference can be heard by using the parts from Solen.
Also I will be building the statement center and the sealed version of the statements. My wife does not like the idea of 60" tall speakers. My concern is the tweeter height. I could put them on stands but that defeats the purpose. I will be sitting at approx 15 feet from the speakers.
Will it make a big difference if the height of the speakers is 40" therefore tweeter and mids much lower than the statements. Can I just tilt them?
What worries me also is when listening to music and might be anywhere in the room, how will ribbons perform here? And has anybody used anything else as tweeters for the statements?
TIA

[Jim Holtz]

I have posted a crossover parts comparison from PE and Solen( a local dealer http://www.solen.ca/pub/)
Some values are not exactly the same as the original design found at PE.
Can someone tell me if any noticeable difference can be heard by using the parts from Solen.
Also I will be building the statement center and the sealed version of the statements. My wife does not like the idea of 60" tall speakers. My concern is the tweeter height. I could put them on stands but that defeats the purpose. I will be sitting at approx 15 feet from the speakers.
Will it make a big difference if the height of the speakers is 40" therefore tweeter and mids much lower than the statements. Can I just tilt them?
What worries me also is when listening to music and might be anywhere in the room, how will ribbons perform here? And has anybody used anything else as tweeters for the statements?
TIA

Aqus,

I'll let Curt weigh in on the crossover parts comparison. The brand difference doesn't matter at all and the caps are well with in the normal 5% tolerances. Inductors need to match fairly closely in value and DCR.

The 60" to 40" height difference is a show stopper. MTM's always need the tweeter to be at ear height. If you want a shorter speaker, I'd suggest you build the Mini's per spec. They'll come in at 44"

Just an FYI, short ribbons have superior horizontal dispersion to domes and similar vertical dispersion to a 1" dome. No tweeter should be placed well below ear level if you expect the speaker to perform as designed.

HTH

Jim

[Jed]

So leaning towards RS TMWW and it's matching center but can't find any impedance curve for them.



Thanks again guys

That speaker will dip slightly below 4 ohms or close to 4 ohms in the bass because it uses two 8 ohm drivers wired in parallel. What you'll want to look for is a speaker that uses a pair of 4 ohm drivers in series (Dynamic 2T) to net 8 ohms before the crossover is even considered. Another way to achieve a higher system impedance is to wire a quad of drivers/woofers in series parallel- like what is done in my Lineup Maxx and Dynamic 4T speakers. Wish I had an option with dual RS225s, but a quad of RS180s is more dynamic sounding, so that's what I went with in my ultimate expression for the Dynamic Series.

[aqus]

How would you compare the mids and highs from the mini's to the statements? I have a 15'' sub so I can go get those lower octaves quite well. Though with the two mids I figured the statements would have better natural sound. Those who heard both, is there a noticeable difference? I know there will be, but is it enough to stick with the statements. Also apparently the SPL of the statements I read somewhere were much better...

[Jed]

I like dual TB W4s personally. Less harmonic distortion and greater power handling which equals cleaner sound.

[Jim Holtz]

How would you compare the mids and highs from the mini's to the statements? I have a 15'' sub so I can go get those lower octaves quite well. Though with the two mids I figured the statements would have better natural sound. Those who heard both, is there a noticeable difference? I know there will be, but is it enough to stick with the statements. Also apparently the SPL of the statements I read somewhere were much better...

Hi Aqus,

the mids and highs in all of the Statements speakers are nearly identical. The difference in maximum SPL is about 110 db for the Mini's Vs 115 db for the Statements. Sound quality is a toss up. The Statements have more bass impact due to the larger woofers but extention is the same.

I'm sure you can see a difference in distortion when comparing one to two W4-1337SA's in measurements but in real world, you would have to push it to the extremes to "perhaps" hear a difference.

Honestly, if your goal is to crank super high SPL, I'd not recommend the Statements or Mini's. Both will get crazy loud by my standards but that wasn't the goal of the design. Sound quality was. I'd also recommend that you follow the plans or it's very likely, the finished speaker won't perform as designed.

HTH

Jim

[aqus]

placement

Hi still debating over statement, sealed or Mini. Can't convince wife on size yet...
I put up a picture of where they will be going. They will be where the existing speakers are. And the center replacing the center on the speaker. The stereo unit will be moved to the edge of the wall to give the right speaker more space.
My question is being an open back and reading up on distances from the wall, will being placed near a corner like the setup I have now have a big effect on sound? Also the glass sections in back of the right speaker?
Also noticed most people glued their speakers together and don't seem to see much screws used. I guess the yellow carpenters glue or locktite III is more than strong enough?

[---k---]

The corner placement will affect the bass more than the midrange. Generally, it is good to have the speakers a couple feet away from the side wall, but you got to do what you have to do. Every speaker is going to have the same problem. The EQ in your receiver can probably help minimize the problems.

If the glass isn't a problem now, it shouldn't be with the statements - that is unless you change your listening habits and start listening much louder.

That looks like a small room. I bet the Mini's will work well for you.

And yes, wood glue is more than strong enough with good, straight cut joints and enough clamps. If you're wanting to build faster than the glue dries or don't have sufficient clamps, brad nails or screws can be useful.

[Jim Holtz]

Hi still debating over statement, sealed or Mini. Can't convince wife on size yet...
I put up a picture of where they will be going. They will be where the existing speakers are. And the center replacing the center on the speaker. The stereo unit will be moved to the edge of the wall to give the right speaker more space.
My question is being an open back and reading up on distances from the wall, will being placed near a corner like the setup I have now have a big effect on sound? Also the glass sections in back of the right speaker?
Also noticed most people glued their speakers together and don't seem to see much screws used. I guess the yellow carpenters glue or locktite III is more than strong enough?

Hi Aqus,

Boy, the corner placement is tough on speakers. Honestly, I wouldn't recommend any of the Statements. They're reasonably forgiving for placement but unless you can move the system to the flat wall, I think the soundstage will be really bad with the Statements because of the open back on the mid. All of the Statements speakers depend on the back wave of the open back TL mid to sound right. Move to a flat wall and they'd be my 1st choice but not in a corner.

Any speaker will struggle with that placement but a conventional speaker will do much better than an open back design. Jed has some great designs. Ryan and CJD's Khanspire design should also work well in your situation. Both will be a huge step up in sound quality over your existing speakers.

HTH

Jim

[---k---]

Well, listen to Jim more than me!