GARAGE DOOR FOR SALE: (Makin' room for a dedicated HT!)

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  • Sonnie Parker
    • Jan 2002
    • 2858

    GARAGE DOOR FOR SALE: (Makin' room for a dedicated HT!)

    Actually the garage door isn't for sale... it will be staying.

    I suppose this has to be one of the top 5 or so greatest things to ever happen in my life. I'm about to build a dedicated HT room. Solely dedicated to home theater it will be!

    Yep... I'm excited!

    I wanted to start this thread because I know several of you have been through this and I'll be needing advice, suggestions, and opinions all along the way. Who else can I trust but my friends at htguide?

    I finally convinced the wife (Angibug) to allow me to enclose part of our 2 car garage. What a loving wife I have to trust me with this.

    There's a layout posted on down the thread.

    I've got lots of decisions to make so I'll be asking a lot of questions... please help me out along the way. I greatly appreciate it!


    You can also follow the building of Snapbug Theatre via the link in my sig below.






    SONNIE

    Cedar Creek Cinema

    DVD Collection

    BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide
  • Andrew Pratt
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 16507

    #2
    This probably should be in the spaces forum rather then DIY but congrats Sonnie:T Those are silimar dimensions to my HT room and while I wish it were a little wider i really love my room. When i have a bit more time I'll try to write a more detailed reply with some tips i learned while building my room




    Comment

    • Sonnie Parker
      • Jan 2002
      • 2858

      #3
      Thanks Andrew!

      And you're right... this really does belong in Spaced Out.






      SONNIE

      Cedar Creek Cinema

      DVD Collection

      BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

      Comment

      • Chris D
        Moderator Emeritus
        • Dec 2000
        • 16877

        #4
        Congrats, Sonnie! :banana: when you run into constraints with your theater, just build yourself a new room and build a new one! I love the solution!

        I've got SO many tips and lessons I've learned so far, that I can't put them all in one thread or series of posts. Anything you want to know specifically? (not to toot my own horn again, but have you been following my article series? That would guide you through the whole process)




        CHRIS
        Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"
        CHRIS

        Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
        - Pleasantville

        Comment

        • Andrew Pratt
          Moderator Emeritus
          • Aug 2000
          • 16507

          #5
          Sonnie what were you thinking of using for seating? I really like my new front chairs as they're narrow enough that I can get three across and still have enough room for walk ways on each side...that and they're were pretty cheap

          photo of my chairs

          For the walls I highly recomend you install John Mansville Linacoustic insulation on the bottom part of the wall to about ear level when seated. You can also cover the whole front wall with it so dampen the reflections from your front speakers. Above this you want a more reflective surface so you can leave it painted sheet rock if you like or cover it with the same cloth you use to cover the lineacoustic with. This will effectly deal with the refections in the room and given your room width this is definaly something you'll need to address or those first order refelctions will really mess you your soundstage.
          The picture above of the chairs also shows you the linacoustic when its covered with fabric. I covered the top half of my walls with an indoor/outdoor low pile carpet but in hindsite its a little to dead in my room and I somewhat regret using the carpet. In my case what I'm now doing is adding posters and other reflective objects back into the room to increase my RT60 time (reverb) so music sounds more lively...though for multichannel and HT use my rooms perfect. I don't seem to have any photo's of my room before I covered up the linacoustic on my webserver so I'll have to load some up tonight for you.

          For lighting I have four wall scones that are controled via a Lutron spacer unit. I've got a mix of X10 and Lutron gear thoughout my house for controling lighting and the lutron stuff is much higher quality and more reliable. The spacers come in two kinds...there's the one sold at Home Depot for about $50 and there's the other Spacer System model that's sold at some online places. The difference between the two is that the one from HD only works for one scene (zone) vs the Spacer System one can get used together with other units for multiple scenes. There's the Graffic Eye unit as well if you really need to customize multiple scenes etc but sit down before you see the price for it

          In my room with the four lights running with their max rated bulbs its a pretty dim room. If I were to do it again I'd go for six scones instead of two to get a brighter room. In my case I'm now running bulbs rated a little higher then what they recomend but as they're never on for long I'm not to worried about it.

          For power you should see about running some new power lines to that room. I'd recomend at least one 20 amp line for the AV gear and another dedicated 15 amp line for the projector's ceiling mount. Now's the time to run wires so don't scimp on adding a few wall jacks in the corners for subs etc.

          Where were you thinking of placing the gear? Given that the other side of your wall is open have you considered recessing the gear into the wall? That's one of the things I love most about my new theater since its incredibly easy to work on gear when you have complete access to the back of the rack.

          Again given that the other side of the room is open have you given any thought to installing an IB subwoofer? That room appears primed for an IB install and it would save room in the main theater:yesnod:

          I take it the common wall isn't built yet? Assuming not were you planning on doubleing up the sheetrock on the theater side? If you're considering going with an IB (highly recomended) you likely should double it up and make sure the walls sturdy as the IB's tend to give the walls a good shake :twisted:

          This wasn't the most well thought out post as i simply wrote down some idea's that came to me as I typed so I appologize for the scatter gun approach...this will be a great deal of fun for you planning it all and building it slowly up from the ground. How much of the work are you planning on doing yourself?




          Comment

          • Sonnie Parker
            • Jan 2002
            • 2858

            #6
            Chris... ops: I don't have a subscription... but in reading some of the resources and seeing the number of DIY projects it looks like I might need to endulge myself with one.

            I'll be asking plenty of questions as I go so stay handy please.


            Andrew... yes, I've seen those chairs and they are a consideration. Keep in mind though that I'll be the only one in there for the most part. I might opt to just put my recliner in there on the front row center and a couch on a stepped up back row but it's hard to say right now. We don't have too many friends around here that are really into home theater. There will a few instances where we might have a few folks over but not many. Bug is not crazy about the startling sounds of movies but she'll like the romantic comedy's and such.... still she'll care much less about the room than I.

            This Linacoustic insulation you reference... which one of these is it?



            I definitely plan on doing some sort of sonances (maybe like the ones we have in our great room now) with X10 remote dimming.


            No doubt I'll be running a new power line to the room. We have some on the west wall now but I want a dedicated circuit. I have extra 20 amp circuits terminated up in the attic above the service panel for just this type of future planning. I'll probably run at least 2 20 amp circuits into the room.

            Hmmm... the gear.

            There is really not going to be an open wall to work with. The east wall is probably where I'll put the door. I can't take up anymore room there because Bug wants to continue to park her car in the garage. I'm really having to sacrifice a foot of width to please her with all this.

            The south wall will separate the HT room from the house (so to speak). I'll have to leave the corridor between the house and HT room for pass through from the garage to outside... plus we already have our attic access in that planned corridor.

            Recessing the equipment anywhere else would not give me access to the rear.

            I figured I'd just place the equipment down low in front of the screen. Sub in the corner of course with mains close to the sides and maybe build a low level rack for the equipment in the center. I can mount the center speaker on top of the rack I build.

            With a screen size of 106" (52" X 93")... I think I'll have enough room down low to do this.

            Here's a layout that is getting close to being finalized:



            This one is a frontal view:



            No IB Andrew... I've got to think cost efficiency. I have the Velodyne HGS-15 and it rumbles the foundation now when I want it to and it's in a the bigger great room. I know it will more than do the job in that small room.


            I'll be doing all the work myself... well .. maybe a little help all along... just helpers though... I'm fairly well educated in building and electrical stuff. I completely wired both our homes we built and have done lots of construction/carpentry work in the past.


            Keep it coming.






            SONNIE

            Cedar Creek Cinema

            DVD Collection

            BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

            Comment

            • Andrew Pratt
              Moderator Emeritus
              • Aug 2000
              • 16507

              #7
              Sonnie you'll have more friends wanting to drop by when you get the big screen

              As for the Lineacoustic its full name is Johns Manville Permacoate Lineacoustic...and you can learn more about it here Its actually developed for lining plenum's but its sonic properites are identical to TheaterShield which is sells to comercial theaters for lining their walls and its far easier to find locally then TS is. The easiest way to install Linacoustic is to add a 1 inch thick baseboard on the top and bottom and then use a 3M Super 77 adhesive spray to hold the material on the wall. You can then easily cover the insulation with nearly any fabic you like. You'll want to avoid dense fabrics such as silks etc but nearly any cloth will work for our purpose here.

              As for your screen how far back is your new seating distance? Remember that with a screen that wide your main speakers are going to get pushed out pretty far. In my room that's 6" wider then yours the largest screen that really works for me is 92" diagonal. I could push the speakers out a tad further but not much esp if I wanted to have any sort of 2 channel imaging.

              With this room you could use either 6.1 or 7.1 with the side speakers positioned properly which will greatly help your surround experience as well. I'm running 6.1 due to my door placement on the rear wall but given our room widths I don't feel 7.1 would be any better...it might actually be worse

              One last thing why X10 lighting? If you don't already have the IR543 unit you'll end up spending about the same as the home depot lutron spacer unit is.




              Comment

              • Lex
                Moderator Emeritus
                • Apr 2001
                • 27461

                #8
                Andrew is right, the Lutron stuff is much nicer than X10. I use X10 for lamp modulues and such, but the Lutron stuff is much more reliable where using it is possible. I have 2 Lutron wall switches. One in the great room, and one in the bedroom. My bedroom one went bad once, but other than that, I love em.

                Sonnie, have you considered a total new construction theater? Later on, you may miss that half of your garage. If it was possible, I'd investitage new construction. (That's easy for me to say, because it's not my budget )


                P.S. Never try and take a Lutron apart, it don't work afterwards, lol.
                Doug
                "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                Comment

                • Andrew Pratt
                  Moderator Emeritus
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 16507

                  #9
                  Sonnie here's a link that you might find useful



                  For IR and Lutron gear I highly recomend http://www.smarthome.com they're fantastic to deal with both before and after your purchase.

                  Doug I took apart my spacer the other day and you're right they're a pain to put back together. I got mine working again though as I found the peice of plastic my cousin bent when he really hammered on the switch :naughty:




                  Comment

                  • Lex
                    Moderator Emeritus
                    • Apr 2001
                    • 27461

                    #10
                    I tried to change out the colors on one, and had to disassemble part of it, and when I did, it was toast. I'll never take the plastic off one again, lol.

                    Of course, I did what any red blooded American would do, I reassembled and took it back to lowes or hd as a manufacturer's defect, lol.

                    Lex
                    Doug
                    "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                    Comment

                    • Sonnie Parker
                      • Jan 2002
                      • 2858

                      #11
                      I've updated those layouts a little. Angie didn't like the squared corner jutting out in from of the house entrance door. Dang, already having to literally cut corners! :roll:

                      (I gotta please her in this guys...just no way around some things! And remember... I'm on a very low budget due to buying a projector and screen. I've got to be extremely cost efficient.)

                      Thanks for the link Andrew. WOW! That lineacoustic comes in up to 2" thick. How much is the 1" sheet?

                      I've been thinkin' a thin carpet on the bottom half and sheetrock on the top.

                      I think my head will be at about 13' from the screen and 10' from the speakers. It will make almost a perfect triangle from the speakers to the prime listening position. Not sure if this is ideal or not but I don't do much 2 channel listening at all. This is solely going to be for HT with a little MULTI mixed in.

                      I'm not going 7.1 with this small of a room. 5.1 or 6.1 will be good enough for me.


                      Lutron is good with me... I don't have the IR543. I'll only want dimmer control of all lights (probably 6 sonances) and then I'll have a ceiling fan in the back center that I'll want to control on/off/speed.

                      Lex... I initially looked at the idea of enclosing the entire garage but that's our main entrance to the house and it can't logically be changed. That would definitely over the budget anyway. Plus Bug would have nothing of it.

                      Here's a couple of picks of the side of the garage I'll be entitled to and remember I don't get all of my side because of the planned corridor. Plus I don't want another exit to the outside in the HT room anyway.






                      Hmmm.... the room dimensions calculator says the perfect room is 10' X 20' with my ceiling height.






                      SONNIE

                      Cedar Creek Cinema

                      DVD Collection

                      BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

                      Comment

                      • Andrew Pratt
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 16507

                        #12
                        How much is the 1" sheet?
                        The 1 inch thick stuff is what you will need and it should be about $150USD give or take a bit...I forget exactly what I paid but it was up there for a 100 foot roll. Erik used some other insualtion that might be a little cheaper but the Linacoustic is what the pros are suggesting people use (Dennis Erskine)

                        The Lutron from HD is what you will want then...should be about $50USD

                        Actually those angled off rear corners will not be too bad for sonics but you are definatly going to have to go 6.1 now...which as I said above is likely prefered anyway in this room.




                        Comment

                        • Sonnie Parker
                          • Jan 2002
                          • 2858

                          #13
                          Is $150 per sheet or per 100' roll... if a roll, how wide is the roll?


                          I believe I'll plan on 6.1.


                          I'm thinkin' about dropping the screen size down to 100". If I decide to have my eyes sitting at 12' I should be able to do it better with a little smaller screen. But I want a pretty big screen. If it turns out after watching it for a while that I think it's too big then I can always mask it... but it would be hard to go larger if I started out smaller and wanted larger.

                          That puts my initial screen at 50" X 88".

                          I've also decided to add an extra 6" wall on the west side existing wall so that will bring my room down to 11' wide.






                          SONNIE

                          Cedar Creek Cinema

                          DVD Collection

                          BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

                          Comment

                          • Chris D
                            Moderator Emeritus
                            • Dec 2000
                            • 16877

                            #14
                            Sonnie, you've probably thought about this. But could you use the other half of the garage, so that you don't have to plan a walkway behind and around it? Or do you have other items on that stall that make that impossible?




                            CHRIS
                            Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"
                            CHRIS

                            Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                            - Pleasantville

                            Comment

                            • Andrew Pratt
                              Moderator Emeritus
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 16507

                              #15
                              Sonnie I got a 100 foot roll that was 1" thick and 48" tall.




                              Comment

                              • Sonnie Parker
                                • Jan 2002
                                • 2858

                                #16
                                Chris... I did consider that other side but it backs up to Chelsea's TV/Game room and it has 2 windows on the east side (front of the house). Plus I'd really like to keep it detached (so to speak).


                                Andrew.... was this roll what you paid about $150 for or were you referring to a single sheet at $150?






                                SONNIE

                                Cedar Creek Cinema

                                DVD Collection

                                BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

                                Comment

                                • Sonnie Parker
                                  • Jan 2002
                                  • 2858

                                  #17
                                  Our local hardware store says they carry John Mansville products and will check on a price for the roll.


                                  We also discussed another inexpensive method of double walling with blackboard and sheetrock. Blackboard is similar to what E used but is asphalt impregnated sheathing and has a little higher R-value that regular wood sheathing. 6 bucks a sheet. It feels almost like rubber when you walk on it. I may use it around everywall between the studs and sheetrock. Then we may carpet over the sheetrock all around too.


                                  Btw... please let me know if you run across someone that has converted their garage into a HT room and has pics they can share.

                                  Thanks!






                                  SONNIE

                                  Cedar Creek Cinema

                                  DVD Collection

                                  BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

                                  Comment

                                  • Andrew Pratt
                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 16507

                                    #18
                                    Sonnie that was for the whole roll. There should be a dealer locator on the johns manville site that you can look to see who else might have it.

                                    RonP converted his garage to a HT and I think he's still hanging out at HomeTheaterTalk




                                    Comment

                                    • Sonnie Parker
                                      • Jan 2002
                                      • 2858

                                      #19
                                      Yep... I got a price of $140 for a 4' X 100' roll.... not bad at all. The covering for it sounds like it's gonna be more expensive and a pain in the rear though. I may opt to just do a low cut pile carpet half way up the wall (or to at least above ear level or possibly up the entire wall).

                                      Decisions... decisions!


                                      I met RonP yesterday.... his is similar to what I'm planning. He actually didn't attach it to the ceiling as I will because he only had one big garage door. Plus he uses a window a/c unit. I talked to our a/c man and he tells me adding a couple of vents and a return air off of our existing unit will be no problem and as well as it's insulated should do a fine job.






                                      SONNIE

                                      Cedar Creek Cinema

                                      DVD Collection

                                      BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

                                      Comment

                                      • Andrew Pratt
                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                        • Aug 2000
                                        • 16507

                                        #20
                                        Sonnie my recomendation is that you'll only get one chance to do this properly so with that in mind I'd install the Linacoustic. Its actually pretty easy to work with and covering it with fabric can be pretty quickly done. I got my fabric from Wal-Mart as they had the colour I wanted and it was pretty cheap...you don't need expensive material so just make sure you can get a bolt that's long enough and is cheap.




                                        Comment

                                        • Pat
                                          Super Senior Member
                                          • Aug 2000
                                          • 1637

                                          #21
                                          Sonnie, you might want to check out this Viewing distance calculator




                                          Pat's Page
                                          Pat's Page

                                          Comment

                                          • Sonnie Parker
                                            • Jan 2002
                                            • 2858

                                            #22
                                            Andrew, with the cost of the Linacoustic being so reasonable I'm sure I'll end up using it. Seems like it's very popular for sure. You're right... I may as well do it the right way. It will be hard to go back and do it later.


                                            Pat... interesting calculator... looks like I'd need a 116" screen. But 100" will work pretty well too. I can move from 13' to 11' pretty easy.

                                            Here's what it looks like:








                                            SONNIE

                                            Cedar Creek Cinema

                                            DVD Collection

                                            BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

                                            Comment

                                            • Andrew Pratt
                                              Moderator Emeritus
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 16507

                                              #23
                                              Nice viewing distance calculator. A friend of mine made one for excel but this is great to be able to share with others:T




                                              Comment

                                              • Sonnie Parker
                                                • Jan 2002
                                                • 2858

                                                #24
                                                It's time to get started on this baby. I'll probably start framing Wednesday.

                                                Bug has decided she wants the metal garage door to stay in the shut position so that it looks normal on the exterior. I think this is a good idea although I'll have to deaden the metal considerably with dynamat or similar to prevent possible rattling. I will silicone it shut then insulate the p out of it.


                                                I've also decided to isolate the HT room from the house. I will leave about a ¼ inch space between the 2 existing walls and the room and same between the ceiling and room. I will seal the small gaps with silicone between the edge of a trim piece around the outer edge and the existing walls/ceiling to make it look like it's attached. The only real connection will be the a/c vents/return air which I will also dampen heavily for the first few feet into the attic.

                                                I afraid if I actually use the existing ceiling or attach to the existing ceiling that I will end up getting some awful resonation throughout the attic and back into the house via the ceiling joist. I want to insulate the new ceiling as well as I do the walls.

                                                This is going to shorten my height in the room to about 8 feet or a little over but I think we can live with this.


                                                The door will be the weak link (along with the a/c ducts) but I plan on having a double solid core door unit built that will fit the width of the wall... then dampen the inside door with rubber mass or the like.

                                                Here's a diagram of the double door idea:








                                                SONNIE

                                                Cedar Creek Cinema

                                                DVD Collection

                                                BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

                                                Comment

                                                • Andrew Pratt
                                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                  • 16507

                                                  #25
                                                  Sonnie why the double doors if its only going to be to the open garage anyway?

                                                  With my insulated ceiling the sound leaks I get are primarily though LFE which is nearly impossible to trap and noise though the air ducts.




                                                  Comment

                                                  • Sonnie Parker
                                                    • Jan 2002
                                                    • 2858

                                                    #26
                                                    The garage is right next to Chelsea's TV room and close to her bedroom as well. I just feel like I need to try to tame as much as possible from leaving the room. Every little bit will help. The door and vents will be the major weak points. I can help the door a little by doubling. Haven't got a really good plan for the vents yet but maybe I can figure out something. Maybe the inside of the duct can be lined with the linacoustic for about the first 10 feet or so and absorb a little of the sound.






                                                    SONNIE

                                                    Cedar Creek Cinema

                                                    DVD Collection

                                                    BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

                                                    Comment

                                                    • brucek
                                                      HTG Expert
                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                      • 303

                                                      #27
                                                      A couple of thoughts.

                                                      I think if you're worried about noise leaving the East and South walls you should use 'staggered framing'. This is quite effective in eliminating noise transfer, but does add stud costs.
                                                      You simple frame the wall normally with 16" 2x4 centres, but with 6" base and ceiling plates, then stagger frame another wall with 16" centres on the same base and ceiling plate. Your studs are now 8" apart, but staggered. Drywall both sides as normal. There is now no physical transfer between either side of the wall. (I can send you a diagram by e-mail if you wish).
                                                      It's also wise to add felt under every base plate and silicone caulk all corner, floor and ceiling joists.

                                                      On the existing West wall, remove all the drywall and use the same stagger method except you add a 2"x2" base and ceiling plate and set the staggered studs 1/2 on top of those plates. This saves space from adding the 6" wall you suggested (only adds 2") and is more noise resistant.

                                                      You could also remove all the ceiling drywall and do the same stagger framing of ceiling joists so that they don't contact the existing ones. This save on ceiling height loss and is noise resistant.

                                                      I think a solid single door with a rubber threshhold and weather stripping would suffice. You won't gain much by adding the double door.

                                                      Don't forget a conduit in the ceiling for cabling. Also make sure that the power you run to the projector plug is on the same leg as the other dedicated power in the room.

                                                      I wonder if a false front wall housing the screen and side shelving for equipment, wouldn't be a possible idea to consider. Four feet from the garage door would likely suffice. It would create a little room between the screen and garage door. Then your equipment would be on either side of the screen set into the custom shelving (rack width), with wiring accessable from the rear. Nice flush look. You would need another door to enter it though.

                                                      Just a few thoughts.

                                                      brucek

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Andrew Pratt
                                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                        • 16507

                                                        #28
                                                        Nice to hear from you bruce and some great advice




                                                        Comment

                                                        • Sonnie Parker
                                                          • Jan 2002
                                                          • 2858

                                                          #29
                                                          Hey Ken... good to hear from you. I appreciate you chiming in to help out.

                                                          I can do staggered studding if it will help with the low frequency. Sounds easy enough. Similar to double studding but a little thinner wall. Very good suggestion. Probably wouldn't run cost up that much since I'm reducing to 2 X 4 studs vs. 2 X 6.

                                                          How do you install the insulation in a staggered wall? This will be R-19/R-21 (whatever the 6" stuff is).

                                                          I'm curious as to how the west wall you suggest would be more noise resistant than a separate 6" thick staggered stud wall. If I do as you suggest then it will be attached to the house framing. Wouldn't that cause resonation back through the house more than a separate wall?

                                                          As far as the ceiling I really don't want to tear that out. I can easily drop down below the existig ceiling about 1/4" and frame a new 6" ceiling. I'll still be at a little over 8' high. This keeps the HT room ceiling from touching the existing ceiling joist eliminating more resonation throughout the attic. With insulation and double sheetrock plus more insulation in the attic this should help. The insulation will fill the 1/4" gap and the sides around the room will be filled with silicone the full 6" width of the top plate. The only contact the HT room will have with the existing house framing is 1/4" of rubber silicone @ 6" wide. The existing ceiling can also work as an additional sound barrier.

                                                          Bottom line is I feel like isolating the room from the existing house will yield better sound isolation and resonation. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems logical.

                                                          Cabling is no problem as I have easy access above. We use it for storage now but I've moved everything from above that side to the other side. I can pretty much walk and squat walk all around above the HT room area. You can see the location of the pull down ladder in the garage pictures above.

                                                          Andrew recommended running separate power for the projector. What's the difference between using the same circuit or a separate circuit? I can do which ever is best.


                                                          I'd really like to have a small room behind the screen but I don't want to sacrafice 4' of room length. The corridor has to stay for WAF so I can't back the room up to the south house wall. With it sitting on a low rack out front I'll still be able to get behind it easily. There will be about 3' or so behind the rack. The rack will also be the center speaker stand. Fortunately there will only be a few pieces on the rack anyway... amp, pre-pro, dvd player, and satellite receiver. The other stuff like the BFD and power boxes will be on the floor or another shorter rack behind the main rack. I really haven't figured that part out yet. The equipment rack is a semi delimma I have to deal with.

                                                          As always I appreciate and respect your knowledge and will be looking forward to your response.






                                                          SONNIE

                                                          Cedar Creek Cinema

                                                          DVD Collection

                                                          BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

                                                          Comment

                                                          • brucek
                                                            HTG Expert
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 303

                                                            #30
                                                            Hey Sonnie - always fun to spend your money.

                                                            I'll e-mail you a small jpeg of stagger studding. The results are exactly what you're trying to do - and that is isolate or float the room from touching the rest of the house as much as possible.

                                                            I'm curious as to how the west wall you suggest would be more noise resistant than a separate 6" thick staggered stud wall. If I do as you suggest then it will be attached to the house framing. Wouldn't that cause resonation back through the house more than a separate wall?
                                                            My point here is that you are losing 6" by adding an extra wall and staggering will only add 2" and still be isolated. See my e-mail picture.

                                                            How do you install the insulation in a staggered wall?
                                                            Same as a normal 6" wall with fiberglass except there are extra studs partially in the way.

                                                            As far as the ceiling I really don't want to tear that out. I can easily drop down below the existig ceiling about 1/4" and frame a new 6" ceiling. I'll still be at a little over 8' high.
                                                            Yep, I don't see any problem there except you are losing 6" you don't need to lose. But it's still very effective and 8' is plenty high.....

                                                            Andrew recommended running separate power for the projector. What's the difference between using the same circuit or a separate circuit? I can do which ever is best.
                                                            The answer is, it depends.
                                                            If you ran two separate dedicated circuits and they were both on the same leg of your circuit panel, each would have its own dedicated safety ground running possibly different lengths because of the route the cable followed. This means there is a possibility that there may be a small potential difference in the grounds which could result in a small ground loop being completed over the shields of the video cables running to your equipment from the projector. But, this is still your best chance to avoid a ground loop (and is recommended), because the alternative is to extend and carry on your single dedicated circuit from your equipment area to feed the projector. In that case, you're not really providing a single outlet dedicated circuit. You are now using a branch circuit. This can result, (depending on the length of the branch) in voltage drops and potential differences on the safety grounds. Recipe for ground loop.

                                                            Long story short. I would use 1 circuit for lights, 1 circuit for my projector, 1 or 2 circuits for my equipment. Use 12gauge (20amp) cable and breaker them at 15amps. Put the light circuit on a different leg than the equipment and projector leg.

                                                            I'd really like to have a small room behind the screen but I don't want to sacrafice 4' of room length
                                                            OK, but if there is any way of pulling it off, it sure is a nice way to go. All your crap is in this little false room with nothing showing in the theater. You build rack size shelves on either side of the screen and you have room for tons of equipment. The ceiling conduit pipe feeds right into this room with all its wires (more on that later) and you don't have any of them showing. It looks like you come close to having the room to pull it off. Oh well - maybe others can comment on this.

                                                            I should have added to my above post that you certainly do need to insulate the staggered framed walls with insulation - including the ceiling as you indicated - and also felt the base plates wherever possible.

                                                            The false screen wall would also be staggered framed. For the wooded rack size shelving on either side of the screen in the false wall you could leave it open or close the front with panels or plexi.

                                                            Some other thoughts.
                                                            You can use banana jack wall plates for all your speaker connections, so the room will be essentially wire free.

                                                            If you plan to raise the floor in the rear as indicated, if you wanted to go crazy, it would be a good time to put in some power and video cabling in case you wanted a cool small LCD preview monitor near your front seats. That way you don't have to light up your projector if you want to do some quick setup of your video before showtime.

                                                            You didn't specify what your intentions are with respect to the projector scaling and switching duties. This can make a big difference in the cable requirements you need to run through the ceiling conduit and its ultimate size (i.e. 2", 3" pipe?)

                                                            A lot of today's small digital projectors provide their own switching and scaling. If you plan on using these internal features you will be want to provide sufficient cables to feed all the inputs. On the other hand if you will be switching and scaling at your equipment rack, you can get away with a single RGBHV five wire cable feeding the projector.
                                                            For this cable you can certainly run five RG6 cables and terminate them and it will work beautifully or purchase them already terminated and perhaps use an adapter to convert to the connector type used on your projector. Preferred though would be to use some nice flexible RGBHV cable with five tiny color coded coaxial cables inside.

                                                            You should also run a few CAT5 cables to the projector for future control duties like remote on/off, lights, screen and curtain motors, etc.

                                                            On the other hand if you plan on using the projector itself for scaling and switching (as I suspect you do), you will need a lot more cables. It depends on your equipment plans and the number on different switchable inputs on the projector. Likely candidates would be:

                                                            Cable 1 = RGBHV for DVD player - using three wire component. This cable may also be used in the future from a scaler using all five wires or any combination of the five for either RGBHV, RGBsync on green, Y/Pb/Pr, etc......Always best to install the five wire even if you only use three at present.
                                                            Cable 2 = RGBHV for Satellite HDTV receiver - using three wire component output.
                                                            Cable 3 = DVI for computer or HDTV digital interface.
                                                            Cable 4 = S-Video for NTSC Satellite receiver.
                                                            Cable 5 = RG-6 for VCR player - composite yellow output.
                                                            Cable 6 = SVGA for future HTPC feed (or any computer feed for perhaps showing jpeg slide shows etc).
                                                            Cable 7 = Cat5 for future control.
                                                            Cable 8 = Cat5 for future control.

                                                            Anyway, you might not want all these cables, but my point here is to make the ceiling conduit large enough to accomodate extra cables and don't forget to put a 'fish' wire in the pipe.

                                                            brucek

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Chris D
                                                              Moderator Emeritus
                                                              • Dec 2000
                                                              • 16877

                                                              #31
                                                              In general, I agree with double walling a theater using staggered studs. However, you're already using the concept of building a room inside a room, being your garage. The one wall that shares a wall with your house (left theater wall, I think) would be the only one that I would worry about double walling. You've already mentioned you're going to build a new ceiling isolated from the garage ceiling. If you want to double-wall the other sides of your theater for overkill, it will help prevent sound escaping into your garage mostly, but you will see a benefit as the sound in the garage will not bleed to other rooms as well. But I'm guessing you really don't care how much sound is in the garage itself, so it's not completely necessary.

                                                              I double-walled my theater using staggered studs myself (I talked about this and showed how to do it in my article two issues ago) but my theater shares three common walls with the rest of the house, so it was more necessary for me.




                                                              CHRIS
                                                              Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"
                                                              CHRIS

                                                              Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                                                              - Pleasantville

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Sonnie Parker
                                                                • Jan 2002
                                                                • 2858

                                                                #32
                                                                lol Ken... everyone is spending my money for me.

                                                                I think that e-mail is probably on the puter at the house. Angibug probably got it last night after I went to bed but I'll check it this evening when I get home.

                                                                Ken and Chris...

                                                                I am sitting here thinkin' (dangerously) how to wall the outside of the north and west walls if I do isolate them. I guess I'd have to sheetrock the outside of the wall and lean it up.

                                                                The biggest problem I have with using the existing west wall is the fact that the studs will be connected to the existing top plate of that wall which is connected to the existing house framing. I would rather eliminate any contact with the house except for the silicone around the top plates and side plates near the existing walls as described above.

                                                                I think I can live with the sacrifice of those 4" in width.

                                                                Come to think of it I really wouldn't need to stagger stud the west and north walls if they don't touch the existing walls and will be 1/4" away. Unless of course I decide to sheetrock the outside of those walls which although a pain would probably be wise.

                                                                As far as the insulation in the staggered stud walls... should I allow it to compress against the opposite stud or slice it where it will fit around it?

                                                                I have planned to use the wall plates for the surround speakers. Maybe even setting up 2 locations to mount the sides for movies and multi music.

                                                                Yep... power, phone, and other jacks have been planned for the riser front.

                                                                The only 2 planned sources are going to be the HD satellite receiver and DVD player. There are 15-Pin VGA type RGB and Component outputs on the HD receiver but only Component outputs on the pre-pro and DVD player with I believe 2 Component inputs on the pre-pro. I can use components to the pre-pro from each source and then from the pre-pro to the PJ. I'll probably go ahead and install 3" PVCC in case I later get sources with DVI or later get a pre-pro with RGB or DVI.

                                                                Fish wire... that's where my handy little sewer snake comes into play. I have never used it for sewage so it's been a good wire puller through the pvc pipes in our great room walls. Of course if ever I do use it for sewage I don't think I'll be using it for wire pulling any longer. The hardware store has plenty in stock though.


                                                                Hey... we're getting close to a flip. Oh wait, this isn't TTP.






                                                                SONNIE

                                                                Cedar Creek Cinema

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                                                                • brucek
                                                                  HTG Expert
                                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                                  • 303

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Sonnie,

                                                                  FLIP ---- quit wasting time during the workday on your Home Theater

                                                                  I think that e-mail is probably on the puter at the house. Angibug probably got it last night
                                                                  Yeah, I sent it quite late.

                                                                  The biggest problem I have with using the existing west wall is the fact that the studs will be connected to the existing top plate of that wall which is connected to the existing house framing. I would rather eliminate any contact with the house except for the silicone around the top plates and side plates near the existing walls as described above.
                                                                  My feeling is that the top and base plate are not a big problem. The main flexible mass of drywall will have no physical connection with a stagger studding. It's the studs that are the main sound conduit to the other side of the wall creating a virtual speaker diaphram on the drywall on the other side. The base plate and top plate are a very small fraction.

                                                                  As far as the insulation in the staggered stud walls... should I allow it to compress against the opposite stud or slice it where it will fit around it?
                                                                  I'd use the standard size that fits the 16" centers and compress it around the 8" stud. You'll still have 2" where that middle stud is located. I suspect this would be taboo for insulating against the cold, but here you're trying for noise isolation. Others might comment on this issue.

                                                                  I'll probably go ahead and install 3" PVCC in case I later get sources with DVI
                                                                  Perfect - you're away ahead of us....

                                                                  brucek

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Chris D
                                                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                                                    • Dec 2000
                                                                    • 16877

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Sonnie, you're right, you don't need to use staggered studs for the North and West walls if you're already building a second wall inside those walls. (you'll have to do that for sure with the North wall, unless you want to show your movie on the backside of your garage door! ) I would say that you don't need to drywall the outer side of those walls, although yes, another drywall layer would help even more with sound isolation. You would just be sacrificing more space that could be included INSIDE the theater to make the internal space wider and/or longer. If it were me, I would use staggered stud construction to build a double wall on the West wall. Since you're garage walls are already finished with drywall, you have two options here. First, you could build your second single wall inside the west wall, and an exterior drywall layer would be optional as long as the new theater wall didn't touch the garage wall anywhere. Second, you could tear out the drywall from the west wall where you'll be building the theater, and then stagger studs inside the studs you expose there. I would recommend the second option, as it will save you a bit of space inside your theater by pushing out your theater wall as far to the west as you can push it. From the outside, I think it will be a cleaner look, as you could make a small connection on the southwest corner of the theater to the west garage wall, making a smooth continuous wall that goes all the way to your garage wall instead of seeing a small gap all the way down your west garage wall that you'll see just as you walk into the garage, where dirt and crap will accumulate but you won't be able to get into.

                                                                    Using staggered studs on the west wall interlacing with the current garage wall will take up the least amount of room while still giving you the double wall construction. I would build a new wall on the north wall, which really can't interlace with your garage door. If you used staggered studs there, you would be building TWO walls inside the garage door, which although again it would help, I don't think is necessary. I would then build a single wall for the south and east walls. Again, staggered studs are not necessary, since the room is already going to be isolated from the other garage walls, but using double walls on those walls would help with more sound isolation if you're willing to go to the extra trouble and sacrifice a few inches of internal space for staggered studs. External drywall on the north wall isn't necessary since nobody will be walking inbetween it and the garage door, but if you want to use it it's fine. I would definitely use external drywall on the south and east walls, as I'm sure you're planning to do.

                                                                    As for insulation inbetween staggered studs, it's no problem. As described above, I would use standard insulation in the exterior wall filling the 16" O.C. Then when you add the second internal wall studs, alternating and jutting into the exterior wall, they will push into and compress the insulation. I was originally worried about this in my theater and that there would be a gap of air in the internal wall that wasn't filled by insulation. But my theater designer Dennis Erskine assured me that this was fine, and that a combination of insulation and air in a cavity can actually deaden air ever more than insulation alone.




                                                                    CHRIS
                                                                    Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"
                                                                    CHRIS

                                                                    Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                                                                    - Pleasantville

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • Chris D
                                                                      Moderator Emeritus
                                                                      • Dec 2000
                                                                      • 16877

                                                                      #35
                                                                      flip!




                                                                      CHRIS
                                                                      Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"
                                                                      CHRIS

                                                                      Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                                                                      - Pleasantville

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • Sonnie Parker
                                                                        • Jan 2002
                                                                        • 2858

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Gee... do I get the flip even?

                                                                        Okay... if you guys really, really, really believe the top and bottom plate connection will not cause resonation back through the existing house framing then I suppose it will make sense to attach it and save the 4" interior space. This will be the only attached wall and at least it is an outside wall and not back up to the house.

                                                                        As far as the other walls I think I still do the staggered studding. I can move the wall over a few inches and keep a the original width I have planned.

                                                                        I believe though that I will now go with fire-code 3/4" sheetrock instead of 1/2" sheathing and sheetrock. Single on the outside and double on the inside which will give me an extra 1/2" savings on wall thickness.

                                                                        I had a friend of 19 years passing through town to drop in and visit with me for about an hour. I had plum forgotten that this is all he's ever done. He is big into home and car stereo and he has done a lot of custom home jobs... he says they have always used the fire-coded 5/8" sheetrock and it's worked better than 1/2"... which it should anyway... it's thicker.

                                                                        I was at the local hardware store talking with some fellows afterwards and a contractor that helped build song writer Brandon Barnes' house about 10 miles from us said they used 5/8" fire-coded sheetrock on his recording studio. Of course they used other acousical treatment on top of that too. (For those that haven't heard the name, Brandon wrote Brian McKnights "Back At One" and has written tons of songs for mostly country music singers, Faith Hill, Hank Jr., and some other R&B).






                                                                        SONNIE

                                                                        Cedar Creek Cinema

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                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • brucek
                                                                          HTG Expert
                                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                                          • 303

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Second, you could tear out the drywall from the west wall where you'll be building the theater, and then stagger studs inside the studs you expose there. I would recommend the second option, as it will save you a bit of space inside your theater
                                                                          There you go Sonnie, Chris backs up what I was trying to get you to do on that West wall. Tearing out drywall isn't a big deal. Look at my e-mail picture and see how staggering that existing West wall will give you an extra 4 inches of theatre space.

                                                                          I would build a new wall on the north wall, which really can't interlace with your garage door.
                                                                          External drywall on the north wall isn't necessary since nobody will be walking inbetween it and the garage door, but if you want to use it it's fine.
                                                                          OK Sonnie, this is your last chance. If you move Chris's North wall a few feet into the theatre, you can use the false wall feature with your equipment mounted in side shelving and all your wires hidden in the little corridor behind it..........Going, going, gone.............................................. ..... :roll: :roll: :roll:

                                                                          brucek

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • brucek
                                                                            HTG Expert
                                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                                            • 303

                                                                            #38
                                                                            darn, you beat me to the flip Sonnie.......... ops: ops:

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • Sonnie Parker
                                                                              • Jan 2002
                                                                              • 2858

                                                                              #39
                                                                              nah nah na na nah... I got the flip... I got the flip...


                                                                              Now look... you have already convinced me to save 4 inches and now you are trying your darndest to take 4 feet away from me. :roll:

                                                                              lol

                                                                              I just can't give up 4 feet of length. It would really mess with my ever so perfect seating plans. Plus it would almost eliminate a back row if not at least cause it to be slam up against the back wall with little leg space.

                                                                              Plus... I kinda like the idea of having the equipment on a rack just below the screen with the center speaker on top of the rack. Remember, we're not talking about all that much equipment anyway. Only 4 pieces showing.

                                                                              And keep in mind... I'll have plenty of room to get behind my equipment. Yeah there will be wires but no one will see them the way I plan on doing it. I promise it will look nice.






                                                                              SONNIE

                                                                              Cedar Creek Cinema

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                                                                              • brucek
                                                                                HTG Expert
                                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                                • 303

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Case closed...

                                                                                We're just here to throw ideas out there for you to ponder.

                                                                                I hope you're going to provide pictures along the way...

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • Burke Strickland
                                                                                  Moderator
                                                                                  • Sep 2001
                                                                                  • 3161

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  you have already convinced me to save 4 inches and now you are trying your darndest to take 4 feet away from me
                                                                                  ... as they lead away the goat after saying "don't DO that!". :>)

                                                                                  Burke

                                                                                  What you DON'T say may be held against you...

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • Sonnie Parker
                                                                                    • Jan 2002
                                                                                    • 2858

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    You guys are too funny!


                                                                                    You know I'll be smacking the pics up... framing begins on Wednesday. I've got an unemployed friend coming over to help me out a little so maybe we can make some framing progress.

                                                                                    Of course the garage door and tearing out that existing wall is first. More work someone created for me... I wonder who? hee hee


                                                                                    Hey... I'll see if I can get the goats in some of the pics!






                                                                                    SONNIE

                                                                                    Cedar Creek Cinema

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                                                                                    BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

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                                                                                    • Sonnie Parker
                                                                                      • Jan 2002
                                                                                      • 2858

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Ken, on the staggered studding.... the door case opening will be framed out as normal?

                                                                                      I suppose this will be the weak link.






                                                                                      SONNIE

                                                                                      Cedar Creek Cinema

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                                                                                      BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

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                                                                                      • brucek
                                                                                        HTG Expert
                                                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                                                        • 303

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Yeah, the door has to be fairly conventional, but it's not that weak a link.

                                                                                        You'll need 6" studs and 6" jacks and a 6" header plate with a 6" jamb.
                                                                                        But you can stagger the cripple, which will help because there is drywall over that area.

                                                                                        Again, I think the biggest source of noise transfer comes from the large areas of drywall (which is flexible).

                                                                                        Perhaps you can line the inside of the door with the Linacoustic.

                                                                                        brucek

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • Sonnie Parker
                                                                                          • Jan 2002
                                                                                          • 2858

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Well I got started this past Wednesday on the room but got delayed a little over 2 hours when I cut my arm (on the side of my wrist actually). I caught it on the corner of the garage door and it cut it to the bone, about a 3" gash.... fairly nasty. None the less a visit to the local hospital clinic and 11 stitches later I was back to working. No pain no gain! Yeah right... that what my football coach use to say all the time.

                                                                                          Got the garage door sealed and all the hardware off. No rattling or wierd sounds at all now. That took the longest time. Got the one west wall sheetrock torn out and studs installed. Also got the wall seal plates anchored down good and liquid nailed as well.

                                                                                          Tomorrow (Saturday) I hope to get the other 3 walls framed and maybe the ceiling.






                                                                                          SONNIE

                                                                                          Cedar Creek Cinema

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