Newbie Help on Budget HTPC

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  • EnderX
    Junior Member
    • Sep 2004
    • 7

    Newbie Help on Budget HTPC

    Well, I have been trying to decide what to do about building a HTPC for quite some time. So I decided to come to the pro's.
    I want it to:
    act as a pvr (time-shifting)
    play back DVD's
    Play MP3's to my Yamaha 5.1 receiver (w/energy speakers)
    Look at Pictures (slide show)
    maybe play some simple games like pac-man

    I already picked up a hauppauge 250 card for pvr, but now I need a computer to put it in. A friend of mine is hooking me up with a deal on this - what do you think:

    Get a dell 3000 - basically these specs
    Intel® Celeron® D Processor 320 (2.40 GHz, 533 FSB),
    Operating System Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition WHXP
    Memory 256MB (single channel) shared DDR SDRAM at 400MHz
    Video Card Integrated Intel® Extreme Graphics IV
    80GB Hard Drive (7200RPM)
    Network Interface Integrated Intel® PRO 10/100 Ethernet
    48X CD-ROM Drive
    Sound Card Integrated 5.1 Channel Audio
    cost - $359 CAN or about $276 US

    So even after I throw my pvr 250 card in I still have no tv-out. Problem is this has no agp slot so any ideas about a pci video card I could put in with tv-out (NOTE: NOT PCI X or express). Anyone have a pci video card that they are using now that seems to work well?

    Also should I add a sound card - if so any suggestions.

    My only other concern is the 256 ram when it is integrated sound/lan/video. Will it be enough. Please give me your opinions. The computer is a good price but not if it doesn't work for me.

    Remember this is on a budget - I need it cheap.
  • aud19
    Twin Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2003
    • 16706

    #2
    While that is a good price I do have a couple of points to make.

    One, hard drives are CHEAP. Get a bigger one and don't use mp3's (they sound like crap). Record wav files from your CD's or some other form of lossless compression.

    Two, stay away from Dell, buy your own parts and put them together. It will require more work on your part and some shopping around for good prices but you'll get better gear that way for around the same prices.

    Three, get away from Intel especially Celerons. I own one, I know, they're a crappy design. An AMD Athlon XP 2200+ is about the same price or a little cheaper and will TROUNCE all over that Celeron. IMO Asus makes the best mobo's out there and getting one with the nvidea chipset with onboard audio and networking is probably your best bet. They even do Dolby Digital encoding outputting a DD signal even on material that is not DD (games, TV etc).

    Four, no 256MB of Ram is not enough, especially sharing it with the video. I'd recommend 512MB and a seperate video card. Look at ATI and Nvidia.

    What I'm recommending might end up costing a little bit more than your few hundred dollars but IMO, that system will not work well for what you want it to do. Buy the cheap good stuff, not the cheap, cheap stuff

    Jason
    Jason

    Comment

    • EnderX
      Junior Member
      • Sep 2004
      • 7

      #3
      I agree dell is not the best choice but every time I try to put together a machine I end up getting close to $700 wich isn't alittle more its double. I will keep looking.

      Comment

      • aud19
        Twin Moderator Emeritus
        • Aug 2003
        • 16706

        #4
        Well I hate to be the guy to deliver bad news but to get a PC to do what you want it to, (at least adequately), you're looking at a bare minimum of about $500-$600 and up IMO. A crappy $300 Dell just isn't going to cut it. Sorry for being a little harsh and blunt there but it's best you know that now and not waste time trying to find something that isn't there or try to make something work that just won't.

        Jason
        Jason

        Comment

        • EnderX
          Junior Member
          • Sep 2004
          • 7

          #5
          What if I dropped the dvd playback and the just stuck with:
          PVR and Wave playback.

          I only have a 27"tv so a pci card with tv-out might cut it?

          Comment

          • aud19
            Twin Moderator Emeritus
            • Aug 2003
            • 16706

            #6
            Something Like one of ATI's All-In-Wonder cards might be better for you than the Hauppauge but it will likely be AGP based not PCI. DVD playback isn't all too intensive and is both cheap and easy to do all you really need for that is a DVD player (cheap) and something like a decent 64MB SDR video card. The PVR capabilities are what will cost you the most to do well. Especially if you want to get in to HD down the line.

            Jason
            Jason

            Comment

            • purplepeople
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2004
              • 242

              #7
              I have to agree with aud19, get a commodity mobo, even a used one. I suggest something like an Asus A7V8X or Gigabyte GA-7VAX series for Athlon chips. WinXP will quickly use up 150MB of RAM so you'll quickly be needing 512MB. Don't use on-board video, they can have all sorts of problems.

              You may be able to find all this pre-assembled in a used PC from some gamer who is upgrading. Try to find something that hasn't been over-clocked.

              If you use on-board sound, then go ahead and play your MP3 files. But aud19 is right, they sound horrible compared to uncompressed PCM. Most people don't notice because most sound cards are equally horrible.

              Unfortunately, really good sound cards are rare and cannot typically be found at the local reseller. This may often the single most expensive component in an HTPC. Look for something with at least 95dB signal-to-noise ratio (SNR). Extigy is the bare minimum if you want to make use of the capability of your Energy speakers. M-Audio Revolution is quite good for (relatively) cheap. And don't hook up the analog audio from the DVD drive, that's another source of poor audio. Instead find some way to digitally decode it - if you can do that at the Yamaha, even better.

              ensen.
              Those who claim to be making history are often the same ones repeating it...

              Comment

              • EnderX
                Junior Member
                • Sep 2004
                • 7

                #8
                I don't really understand why this wouldn't work for a pvr - from what I have read a lot of people are using P3 1Ghz machines for pvr when they use hauppauge because it only uses 1 or 2% of the processor power (hardware encoding). Couple that with a video card with tv out- even a pci one and it seems to me that a cely would work.

                But as I have already said I am new to this and maybe there is something I am missing. I hadn't considered the wave - how do I rip waves as opposed to mp3's? I was planning on adding a 200 gig hd as I could afford it and I can see if I want to use uncompressed audio I will definetly have to do that.

                I also had never heard that most sound cards are crap. Because I am so new I didn't really understand what you were recommending? Would I need both the M-Audio Revolution 5.1 and the Extigy? And did you mean plug into my receiver through the optical or coaxel inputs or did you mean plug in each speaker input through the external decoder ports on my yamaha. Also with the DVD-rom - wouldn't it be plugged into my mobo then go out through the M-Audio Revolution 5.1 to my Yamaha to my Energy speakers?

                Another option I am considering since the dell idea seems to be down the drain - is to use this machine:
                P4 1.8 Ghz
                Intel D850MV Mobo w/lan & sound (add a good sound card as you recommended)
                Ram 512 RD
                Antec 630 case (350watt power supply)
                5 pci slots
                w/agp currenly a Geforce 3 Ti200 but I will add a decent video card w/tv-out
                60 gig hd currently - add a 200 gig
                DVD-rom
                CDRW
                It runs like a charm

                Anything I would have to do to this one or anything I should be aware of?

                Comment

                • aud19
                  Twin Moderator Emeritus
                  • Aug 2003
                  • 16706

                  #9
                  The Celeron would work, I just mentioned you could get a much better performing AMD CPU for the same or less if you're going the new route. The onboard video and 256MB of memory are the biggest achillies heal of that system. Other than being Dell :lol: (I just don't like Dell... My opinion! :lol: ) I also don't like Intel CPU's due to they're usually underperforming compared to AMD's and having the nerve to be more expensive while doing so. I don't recommend them if you're putting together a new system for those two reasons. Now if you already have a system...

                  Another option I am considering since the dell idea seems to be down the drain - is to use this machine:
                  P4 1.8 Ghz
                  Intel D850MV Mobo w/lan & sound (add a good sound card as you recommended)
                  Ram 512 RD
                  Antec 630 case (350watt power supply)
                  5 pci slots
                  w/agp currenly a Geforce 3 Ti200 but I will add a decent video card w/tv-out
                  60 gig hd currently - add a 200 gig
                  DVD-rom
                  CDRW
                  It runs like a charm
                  I certainly wouldn't be a bad starting point and if you already own it would be a nice piece to add too (and less expensive!). You've got the Hauppauge already, other than possibly making it quieter the other tweaks you mention would make a pretty decent system for what you want to do. You may even be able to use your current video card (not sure of it's specs though) with and RGB to component adapter. I'd also recommend a DVD burner as well at some point.

                  Jason
                  Jason

                  Comment

                  • purplepeople
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2004
                    • 242

                    #10
                    The GF3 is a good video card but I don't think it has TV out. AIW cards do.

                    I don't know much about the Hauppage, but even if it only uses 1% of the CPU power, it will be using up bandwidth on the PCI bus where it's connected and that IDE bus while the HDD is running and those use up clock cycles. Check to see what limitations there are with data bandwidth - for instance, you might want to watch a DVD while recording a TV show. There also might be issues with the overall recording resolution vs. system memory.

                    The reason most people don't know that generic sound cards are un-sound is that they haven't heard it through amps and speakers that can resolve the differences. Try this experiment and see what I mean... go to the local box store (or stay home if you have the gear already) with your favourite audio CD. Play it in a PC that's hooked up to some sub/sat speakers (Creative/Logitech/etc.). Set the PC volume to about 3/4 max and then use the sub/sat volume to control. Now plug one of the Sony or Panasonic discman units into the same sub/sats and play again. Match the volume to the PC. Don't let them dissuade you... it's all 1/8" jacks anyway. Even with the relatively inexpensive sub/sats, there will be a noticeable difference. Less noise, more details... overall better sound. Imagine that difference being amplified by your 5.1 receiver and you will understand why so many HT junkies spend such vast amounts on the audio systems.

                    ensen.
                    Those who claim to be making history are often the same ones repeating it...

                    Comment

                    • aud19
                      Twin Moderator Emeritus
                      • Aug 2003
                      • 16706

                      #11
                      Originally posted by EnderX
                      I only have a 27"tv so a pci card with tv-out might cut it?
                      Just a side note on this. I assume your set is not and HD/HD ready model? As such the most resolution you'll get is 640x480 interlaced (S-video or component), which quite frankly wont' be all that great for computing. It will work alright for games, DVD's and TV but you'll want a monitor near by if you plan on doing any emailing, internet browsing, word processing etc... (Which also means making sure you video card will support TV and monitor out at the same time.

                      The advantages of using a PC as a DVD player also largely dissapear without an HD capable display. So you may want to start budgeting for one. I've seen some decent 30"-34" widescreen HD ready sets hovering around the $1000 mark lately. Even saw a 30" (Panasonic I think?) at Costco a few weeks ago for about $800 Canadian!

                      Jason
                      Jason

                      Comment

                      • EnderX
                        Junior Member
                        • Sep 2004
                        • 7

                        #12
                        Correct my tv is not HD - its a D-series JVC w/component and s-video. Nice tv but not HD - HD in the long term plans lol, first pvr. The Geforce 3 ti200 has no tv out - is there an adapter I could get that would work? Would that work with my tv. Since I don't want a monitor in the room - I was gonna use the cheap dell as a surfing/wordprocessing maching.

                        Could you give me some more info. on the audio side? See questions in my last post.

                        Comment

                        • aud19
                          Twin Moderator Emeritus
                          • Aug 2003
                          • 16706

                          #13
                          You're really not going to be able to use a non HD TV as a monitor for surfing/wordprocessing I'm afraid.... Text especially, will look like crap.

                          As for sound, you would only need one card. My personal choice would be to utilize the onboard audio's didgital output to my pre/pro and DD encoding of one of Asus's Nvidea motherboards for general Windows sounds and gaming etc and then utilize a second card, either the Lynx Two or a cheaper card out to something like a Benchmark DAC1 for music server duties :P

                          You could do something similar where to start with you simply use the onboard audio's digital output to your receiver and then later upgrade to the M-audio card or something similar/better.

                          Jason
                          Jason

                          Comment

                          • JOY DIVISION
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2004
                            • 152

                            #14
                            Originally posted by EnderX
                            Well, I have been trying to decide what to do about building a HTPC for quite some time. So I decided to come to the pro's.
                            I want it to:
                            act as a pvr (time-shifting)
                            play back DVD's
                            Play MP3's to my Yamaha 5.1 receiver (w/energy speakers)
                            Look at Pictures (slide show)
                            maybe play some simple games like pac-man

                            I already picked up a hauppauge 250 card for pvr, but now I need a computer to put it in. A friend of mine is hooking me up with a deal on this - what do you think:

                            Get a dell 3000 - basically these specs
                            Intel® Celeron® D Processor 320 (2.40 GHz, 533 FSB),
                            Operating System Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition WHXP
                            Memory 256MB (single channel) shared DDR SDRAM at 400MHz
                            Video Card Integrated Intel® Extreme Graphics IV
                            80GB Hard Drive (7200RPM)
                            Network Interface Integrated Intel® PRO 10/100 Ethernet
                            48X CD-ROM Drive
                            Sound Card Integrated 5.1 Channel Audio
                            cost - $359 CAN or about $276 US

                            So even after I throw my pvr 250 card in I still have no tv-out. Problem is this has no agp slot so any ideas about a pci video card I could put in with tv-out (NOTE: NOT PCI X or express). Anyone have a pci video card that they are using now that seems to work well?

                            Also should I add a sound card - if so any suggestions.

                            My only other concern is the 256 ram when it is integrated sound/lan/video. Will it be enough. Please give me your opinions. The computer is a good price but not if it doesn't work for me.

                            Remember this is on a budget - I need it cheap.
                            This is like an ebay miracle waiting to happen!!!
                            I would look for some AMD or Intel parts and might want to increase your funding to at least $600.00 to see some performance, alot of them are mostly cheap and overclockable, just make sure they mesh well.Forget the DELL, dude!! Everything on that board would be deemed worthless after a month or two. Only thing you could salvage might be the HD and CPU if you're into classics. Start with a board like this:

                            1) ASUS "P4V8X-X" VIA P4X533 cost about $35.00 to $50.00
                            2) ASUS "P4S800" SiS648FX Chipset cost about $50.00 to $60.00

                            and just go from there, stay away from integrated video,shared ram, Celeron :roll: these are like disposable lighters, they run out of fluid after a few software/hardware upgrade.

                            Shop around for the best parts, or try this site www.pricewatch.com

                            My only other concern is the 256 ram when it is integrated sound/lan/video
                            I thought they outlawed this when Windows XP came out. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

                            Comment

                            • Gordon Moore
                              Moderator Emeritus
                              • Feb 2002
                              • 3188

                              #15
                              Look into an nvidia based motherboard that supports Soundstorm (tm)....it's the only APU chipset that encodes all sources to 5.1 Dolby Digital over the digital out to your pre/pro or receiver which is a huge plus and a killer chipset (do a google search for NForce chiupset supported boards....or look here:
                              http://www.nvidia.com/object/motherboards.html)

                              Understand that to the audiophile they get really hung up over how soundcards upsample from 44Khz to 48Khz (you may or may not hear a difference). Cards like M-Audio Revo don't do this and are considered better overall quality (hence the $100 but still considered a bargin). However, I wouldn't get too hung up over the issue. If you are using the pc and pumping it through a 10K system, you may start to hear the holes in the quality and would have to up you budget to match the quality of your other gear (always playing the weakest link game).

                              And, don't get overly hung up over watching through a 27" tv I do it on a 32" and yes text is a little hard to read but the latest graphics cards are much better these days when using s-video and have tools to correct text to be somewhat legible. Though agreed it is NOTHING compared to watching on a bigger screen that supports a higher res.

                              Also MP3 yes it is a lossy compression (meaning the sample is truncated....redundant bits are chopped off to make the file smaller) but most people were soured by 128k recordings that flood Kazza and the rest of the world. If you rip your CD's using a variable bit rate or use a higher quality cbr (constant bit rate) of 200k and up the difference becomes less perceptible (320K is a favorite for those with golden ears).

                              You can look into lossless compressions like Monkey's Audio but then your are limiting where you can listen to these recordings.

                              You can get really good MP3 recordings by following these steps...give it a read and you'll be quite suprised how good it sounds at around 220K (avg).
                              LAME is one of your best bets as an MP3 encoder:



                              another good writeup on using LAME to get good rips:

                              In case someone didn't know, LAME MP3 encoder is the highest quality MP3 compressor available. Best results are achieved using it's VBR features....


                              The Geforce 3 ti200 has no tv out - is there an adapter I could get that would work?
                              Yes there are transcoders that you can buy but for the cost you may want to consder upgrading the video card....it's a bit of a judgement call



                              You'd have to be careful on setting your pc res though software like PowerStrip


                              Definately stick with the Hauppauge card. The hardware encoder is what's going to allow you to purchase a more budget conscious machine. The pvr-250 is used "in addition" to the video card and has TONS of software support. It's also the driving force behind Windows MCE based machine (a variation of it anyway) so you're in good step with that combo. If on budget, I would say a cheaper video card and a PVR-250 way before suggest an ATI All-In-Wonder or a Nvidia based PVR type card. You're on the right path where budget is concerned.


                              P4 or AMD...a bit of tomate-toe / to-mat-toe

                              each camp has their opinion and valid reasons why one is a better than the other. AMD has been coming on strong and innovating. They are exceptional value. P4 has it's merits when you consider it's abilities to hyper-thread. You really can't go wrong either way and when you do a budget piece, the buck is the definitive decider. Shop around is my best advice. AMD offers 32/64 bit chips that give a lot of bang for the buck but if you are PVR'ing then either the 2200 - 2500 xp or the P1.4 you mentioned would work well. If you were planning to do a lot of video conversion a hyperthreading P4 based system would warrant a serious look as it cuts some serious time out of the encoding process.


                              Have fun and ask questions.



                              Gordo
                              Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.

                              Comment

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