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  • Dean
    Junior Member
    • Jul 2004
    • 4

    opinions wanted

    Does anyone know how the benq pe8700 compares to a crt projector with 8" tubes? Is the picture quality even close?

    Also do you think in the next 4 years will there be digitals under 5k that can out performe a good crt in picture quality?

    Thanks
  • Burke Strickland
    Moderator
    • Sep 2001
    • 3161

    #2
    Dean -- Welcome to the HT Guide Forums. You've asked a couple of interesting questions. As for the BenQ pe8700 versus CRTs with 8 inch tubes, to give an answer I'd have to depend on hearsay (what I've read elsewhere) since I've never seen the BenQ in operation. But I do know that it is highly regarded in its price bracket. It would make an interesting "shoot out" to compare the two.

    Also do you think in the next 4 years will there be digitals under 5k that can out performe a good crt in picture quality?
    On a topic like that, even informed opinions are really more like WAGs (wild-a$$ guesses). :>) It is hard to predict the future, since technology leaps forward in spurts instead of making a steady linear progression. Often what is in the labs' proto-type gear doesn't get to the high end consumer units until later and to reasonably priced units much later.

    Also in judging picture quality, although there are objective measures that can be applied, such as effective resolution, ability to reproduce a test pattern, accuracy of color rendition, etcetera, the judgement of "picture quality" is still subjective, For example, some projectors produce eye popping colors but have somewhat washed out blacks. Others produce blacker-than-black but tend to wash out bright colors. Which is "better"? All else being equal, that comes down to personal choice.

    I do think it is safe to say that digital projectors will continue to improve in quality with continuing overall drops in the prices for a given performance level. At some point in the future, digital projectors will probably render a film-like image with deep blacks that even the most die-hard CRT enthusiast will have to admit trumps the tubes. But when? In four years? I don't know. Especially at under 5K in price. But I hope that future is sooner rather than later.

    Burke

    What you DON'T say may be held against you...

    Comment

    • George Bellefontaine
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Jan 2001
      • 7637

      #3
      I'd pretty much agree with what Burke just said. Digital PJs, dlp in particular, have come a long way. My NEC dlp was quite comparable to a 7 " crt PJ I once owned, but was still a tad below in the contrast and black level department.
      My Homepage!

      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 15254

        #4
        Whooo, boy, Dean, that's a loaded question. Well, there is the quick response and the thoughtful response.

        Since I'm a bit of a CRT fanboy, I'll try to avoid a knee jerk response and give you the more thoughtful one, as well as my impressions based on viewing several of the HD2 equipped projectors.



        Strengths of the BenQ 8700

        1. Ease of setup - although it lacks power lens focus or offset, setup is quite simple- all you have to be concerned about is determining the right throw distance range for your screen (the 8700 is relatively short throw), getting it perpendicular so you don't have mechanical key stone issues, and adjusting the zoom and focus.

        2. Like other HD2 light engines, it has the six segment 5X speed color wheels, which helps minimize "rainbows", which some viewers find annoying, and a few find headache inducing.

        3. The BenQ is fairly bright, with a 1000 lumens rating (take ratings with a grain of salt; it depends on calibration and color accuracy, too).

        4. The BenQ has a nice complements of inputs - including BNC RGHV/Component, RCA component, standard composite video, S-Video, and DVI-I (HDCP compliant). Note that the RCA style component inputs ONLY accept 480i component signals. The others accept progressive and HD TV component.

        5. Small and light, easy to setup.

        Weaknesses? Here, perhaps, it gets a little subjective.

        1. Temporal dithering in dark scenes with motion, and rainbows can be distracting to some viewers. Many don't notice these things, though. I do, and the temporal dithering bothers me more. YMMV.

        2. Contrast ratio is good compared to other digital projector technologies, but between the light engine limitations and the inherent issues involved in 8 bit A/D conversion doesn't display as smooth or film like an image as is desirable, particularly at low light levels- there just aren't quite enough graduations of light and dark. Now, I hear you thinking, how can that be a problem, as there's only 255 max levels on a DVD, and with normal IRE range, less than 230? That's true, but most better DVD players have oversampling high res DAC's on the outputs- the cheappie one's use 54 MHz 10 bit DACs, and do modest interpolation and smoothing of the video outputs, the nicer models from Denon, Ayre, Theta, etc., use 216 MHz 12 bit DACs. It's like an oversampling filter in a Pre-Pro with 24 bit processing on a 16 bit signal- the output is smoother and more natural in most cases.

        3. Fixed panel resolution- so any incoming signal not at the native panel resolution must be converted- places considerable importance on the quality of the scaling chips used. Going from 480P to 720P is not a nice ratio - many digital projectors actually lose resolution scaling up, if you check with AVIA test patterns.

        4. It's got a bulb.


        8" CRT.

        Well, that's a kind of "generic" term, like "digital" projector. I might be like Will Rogers, and say there's never been an 8" CRT projector I didn't like, but there are some I like more than others. Just because I'm partial to the NEC XG series doesn't mean that units like the Electrohome 8000 series, or Barco Graphics 808S don't deserve their fans, to say nothing of the Sony G70. Curt Palme's got a fairly nice G70 that needs a green tube at least; he can do that and deliver a stellar projector for under $5K.

        But gosh, those are units that all sold for around $30K new, so maybe that's a little unfair. Why not just compare against some of the better 7" CRT units, like Sony VPHD50Q, or the Sony 1272, or even the cream of the crop (IMO) of the 7" sets, the NEC PG series, with EM focus, and especially the 9PG series with 100 point convergence boards.


        Strengths of NEC XG or PG Extra (8") or NEC 9PG (7")

        1. 15,000:1 contrast ratio, color filtered/corrected lenses, rated 800-1000 lumens. Black is black; when watching 2:35 aspect ratio movies on 16:9 screen, the upper and lower bars are not illuminated with dark gray. The absence of a background haze from residual light seems to make all the colors look more pure and pop off the screen. Results in a more dimensional image, IMO. People can look remarkably natural on many DVD's. Outer space shots look great. Movies like LOTR and Dark City look great. More dynamic contrasts in lighting.

        2. HD compatible, with Native scanning up to 1600X1200P, depending on model. No internal scan conversion required, so native resolution of any source can be used as long as you set it up for multiple scanning resolutions. My preference has been to setup everything to work at 1080i, so I have just one main signal entry in the projector. I do this from HDTV sources (MyHD card), DVD through HTPC on MyHD card, and Zenith DVB318 DVD player. I'm also experimenting with SXGA on RGB output from a new Skyworth DVD player not yet released in US, that also plays Chinese HVD format, as well as scaling up DVD's to XGA (RGB), SXGA(RGB), and 1080i(component video). The 1080i HVD disks look pretty good, a marked setp up from DVD. Though I'm getting a very fine spot size with my current focus adjustments, at 1080i the lines are just starting to blend at the edges, so the resulting picture, while quite detailed, is very film like- without scanlines- even when sitting at 1.5X to the screen, which is too close for an HD2 projector (can see pixels). (OK, with glasses I've got 20/15 vision).


        Bottom line? Once setup properly, absolutely gorgeous picture. I could kick myself for not buying an XG1100 that KennyG offered to me at a great price a few years ago. Did I mention I paid $1600 for a PG9+ with less than 700 hours in pristine condition?


        Cons to an 8" or 7" CRT projector.

        1. It's big. PG's are about 125 lb, 24" wide by 30" long by 12" tall.

        2. It takes much, much more time and effort and some patience to setup, especially if you're not going with the default factory setting for screen size and throw distance. You should be cable of understanding a little about the geometry of projection, and willing to learn the meaning of terms like "keystone" and "pincusion". Setup for a digital (if it's table top) might be no more than 5 minutes. Expect 5 hours for the CRT, or more, if it's your first time. Setting up a CRT is a skilled art, unfortunately. If you're not a bit of a tinkerer or DIY person by nature, if you want to go CRT, get a pro to install it for you. There are many FAQ's and guides, in addition to the MFR's service and installation manuals, but I wouldn't expect my 20 year old daughter to ever do one, but I know she can setup a digital. This is the biggest down side, IMO. For me, it's a non-issue. I've built two CRT front projection kits, so tweaking up a modern one with digital memory using a remote is a real breeze.

        3. It's big. Really big, if you get into an 8" (175 lB typical) or 9" (225 lB and up).

        4. Peak light output is not as high as some of the "light cannon" digitals, though in many cases as high or higher than the HD2 digitals that have been optimized for contrast ratio.


        Curt Palme, who's in the biz of finding, refurbishing, and selling CRT projectors offers this simple comparison, which is pretty handy:

        CRT Positives:
        + excellent image quality
        + no pixellation
        + excellent black levels
        + excellent fleshtones
        + long tube life
        + best $/hour performance ratio
        + relatively inexpensive to purchase used
        + most models are significantly quieter than LCD or DLP

        CRT Negatives:
        - large
        - heavy
        - tubes are expensive to replace when they wear out
        - not as bright as current LCD or DLP models
        - do require maintenance and ‘tweaking’ from time to time
        - not ‘plug and play’
        - require a complete set up for a change in screen size

        LCD/DLP Positives:
        + small and light
        + simple 2 adjustment set up (plug and play)
        + no drifting or alignment of projector
        + decent fleshtones on DLP
        + no pixellation on DLP
        + easy to change bulbs
        + recent models are significantly brighter than CRT

        LCD/DLP Negatives:
        - most are objectionably noisy for home theater use
        - short bulb life (1000-2000 hours typically)
        - expensive bulbs ($300-$500)
        - noticeable pixellation (LCD only)
        - poor fleshtones on LCD
        - poor black levels
        - edge artifacting on most images

        Hope this helps. Class is out.


        ~Jon
        the AudioWorx
        Natalie P
        M8ta
        Modula Neo DCC
        Modula MT XE
        Modula Xtreme
        Isiris
        Wavecor Ardent

        SMJ
        Minerva Monitor
        Calliope
        Ardent D

        In Development...
        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
        Obi-Wan
        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
        Modula PWB
        Calliope CC Supreme
        Natalie P Ultra
        Natalie P Supreme
        Janus BP1 Sub


        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

        Comment

        • Dean
          Junior Member
          • Jul 2004
          • 4

          #5
          If one where to set-up a Sony VPHD50Q and a BenQ pe8700 would the sony have a noticeable difference in picture quality?

          Comment

          • JonMarsh
            Mad Max Moderator
            • Aug 2000
            • 15254

            #6
            IMO, Yes.

            But what matters is what you see.

            There's a brand new (reportedly) D50 on Videogon right now, along with a re-tubed one, and a moderately low hours one (2800 hours) - if the contrast is cranked, the tubes could be wearing already; if it's been treated nice, one would have 5000-7000 more hours on that set left.

            Again, setup is very important, as well as the willingness to do so. What I'd recommend is that you prowl around on the forums, and see if you can find someone in your area with a similar CRT setup who might be kind enough to demo it.

            One of the things that happens, too, is that after you've watched a fair amount of stuff you expectations may change or evolve. So, what was pleasing and "wow" at one time may have characteristics that irritate you over time. But only you can determine that.

            If I had the amount of change rustling around in my pocket that it would take to pick up a new 8700, I'd probably get in touch wtih Curt Palme about the G70 he's got, have him re-tube the green, maybe the blue, too, and I'd have a very sweet 8" machine for under $5K. (NO, he doesn't pay me to say things like this! Or, I might look at those Sony's on Videogon, if I didn't have my 9PG+. Actually, I'd probably go to Hammerhead and pick up the 9PG Extra they have in stock. Might do that this fall if they still have it, for backup. Unfortunately, most companies aren't making these things any more- a few, like TAW, Barco, and Seleco, do, but they're the exception.

            If you have a taste for what a good CRT can do, it will spoil you for most digitals. There are folks who are making the transistion in some cases from CRT to digital, but it's with machine's like the Sony Qualia 004, which offers the smooth film like look that LCOS has (it's the closest to a CRT look), even though they don't match the contrast ratio. But they go for $28K, with $3K bulbs. On a smaller screen a well setup smaller EM focus CRT FPTV can still provide a really tremendous image- there's a qualitative difference that the less expensive digitals can't match.



            BUT, you need to see and compare for youself, to see if that is really important to you. It may be that the convenience and ease of setup and fairly good image quality that DLP can provide is a better balance of features. Unfortunately, that won't be easy to do, unless you are in a major metropolitan area, or are lucky and can find someone over the 'net near by with a setup you can check out.

            Good luck, and happy viewing with whatever you do decide on.


            ~Jon
            the AudioWorx
            Natalie P
            M8ta
            Modula Neo DCC
            Modula MT XE
            Modula Xtreme
            Isiris
            Wavecor Ardent

            SMJ
            Minerva Monitor
            Calliope
            Ardent D

            In Development...
            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
            Obi-Wan
            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
            Modula PWB
            Calliope CC Supreme
            Natalie P Ultra
            Natalie P Supreme
            Janus BP1 Sub


            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

            Comment

            • Brandon B
              Super Senior Member
              • Jun 2001
              • 2193

              #7
              Originally posted by Dean
              Also do you think in the next 4 years will there be digitals under 5k that can out performe a good crt in picture quality?
              All other things aside, given 4 years, I would bet that's almost a sure bet.

              BB

              Comment

              • Energeezer
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2002
                • 147

                #8
                Dean
                Those on this site who know me also know my opinion but in this case it just does not matter.
                The truth is that each tech has its pluses and minuses and you will find supporters of both displays here and elsewhere.
                The only way for you to be sure is to see both in action otherwise you are relying on others opinions.
                My advice to you would be to find someone in your area with an 8" EM focus CRT and ask if you can see it. It should be easy to see the Benq in the showroom.
                I will send you a M with a link to help you find an 8 incher in your area. Just post and ask.
                As far as the future I think it is anything but a safe bet one way or the other and in 5 years my bet is that there are still supporters of both.
                See PM
                The Future of HT lies in FP SPREAD THE WORD

                Comment

                • Dean
                  Junior Member
                  • Jul 2004
                  • 4

                  #9
                  I will probably buy a crt projector from Curt Palme. I've heard good thing about him, he is close to me only one province over and offers good tech support. Iam thinking of starting with a less expensive crt to learn on :W . Then hopefuly up grade to a Sony G 70 or similar in a couple years.

                  Comment

                  • Energeezer
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2002
                    • 147

                    #10
                    I'll vouch for Curt.
                    I've had several dealings with him. He is honest and his support is second to none. You may pay A LITTLE more thru Curt but you will get piece of mind and outstanding support which is a must especially for a first time CRTer.
                    The Future of HT lies in FP SPREAD THE WORD

                    Comment

                    • Dean McManis
                      Moderator Emeritus
                      • May 2003
                      • 762

                      #11
                      Welcome Dean,

                      If you are comfortable with electronics and willing to learn about setting up a CRT projector, you can get a very nice picture from it.

                      Jon's detailed explanation makes many great points.

                      There is a bit of a record player-CD player comparison between CRT projectors and the better quality digital projectors.

                      People who really value ultra dark black levels (like audiophiles who prefer the sound of records) will be happy to deal with the shortcomings of CRT projectors for the extra quality provided.
                      But I haven't played a record for many years, and I moved from CRT projectors a couple year ago now and have enjoyed the benefits that digital projectors provide.

                      Both are great technologies. CRT being the world standard for years, and digital technologies (DLP, LCD, LCOS) improving steadily in picture quality and cost.

                      There are no wrong choices here, just ones that match your needs, budget, and personal tastes.

                      -Dean.

                      Comment

                      • LEVESQUE
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2002
                        • 344

                        #12
                        And never forget the WAF factors. My neighbor (richest contractor in town) has a 75K$ CRT... but it's not calibrated... 200 pounds of uncalibrated metal hanging on the ceiling. He didn't knew he had to redo the convergence (sorry... pay someone to do it...) regularly... No one told him...

                        My wife told me after seeing it (before building our dedicated HT): ''I don't want a big refrigerator like that on my ceiling!'' (with the ''mean'' look...).

                        Since then, my neighbor prefers my William Phelps calibrated 3 chip LCOS HX1 - Denon 5900 combo to his mega-buck CRT. Strangely, he always find a good reason to invite himself to see movies at my place.

                        And the worst part for him was when HIS wife told him: ''Wow! The picture is better, and this machine is SOOOO small''... And then she made a finishing move with: ''And just to think that Alain did pay 10X less for all this...''

                        :rofl: :lol: :rofl:

                        But everyone in this thread made the case clear. It's your own eyes, and your money. There is pros/cons to both technology.

                        If you don't mind loosing precious hours of your time tweaking the picture (or paying someone to do it) and the WAF is confortable with a 200 pounds monster over her head, but with an AWESOME PQ and incky blacks ... Go with the CRT.

                        But if, like me, you want an almost plug-n-play experience in a small and easy to set-up box, with more then ok for me blacks (even after seeing some of the best CRTs in action), and an AWESOME PQ... then go with a digital PJ.

                        You can't go wrong with both. Try both technologies, compare them, then make the BEST choice for YOUR eyes and needs.

                        IMHO, CRTs are like dinosaurs... We know they did exist because there is still some gigantic fossils around (particularly on some ceilings...) to prove it... Just kidding! :lol:
                        To spend more $$$ on electronics without first addressing room acoustics is fruitless IMO.

                        Comment

                        • LCOS Lover
                          Junior Member
                          • Jul 2004
                          • 9

                          #13
                          Just a quick comment on the potential for a nice Digital projector in the next 4 years. I have the enviable job of working in the projection industry, so I get to see what is coming out in the next year, now.

                          There is a lot of evolution happening in digital projectors. All 3 technologies are experiencing leap and bounds of improvement. Things will take a few years to shake out, and each technology will find its place but in the next 4 years you will be able to get a full 1080p LCOS (absolutely cannot be beat by either LCD (screen door) or DLP (color break)) for around $5k or less. These will have 3,000:1 or more contrast (very good blacks, no dithering grays) and film like smoothness.

                          If you want a glimpse of the future try and get a peak at the Sony Qualia, or the new JVC 2K D-ILA. They are both $24k + now, but the price will be coming down. In fact that has already started with JVC introducing their new LCOS TV, with a street price of $3,500. As you may or may not know RPTVs use the same optical "engine" as FP, just with a different lens and brighter lamp. So with the increase in volume of these sets, they can bring the price of the LCOS panels and other components down so the FP will be able to take advantage of the RPTVs economies of scale.

                          It will take a couple of years and will be most obvious when the Blue-ray disc has pre-recorded content available (movies in full 1080) or when you watch HD on TV.

                          I have to admit I am jealous of Levesque. The HX-1 is a nice projector, and one of the few rare LCOS projectors out there...

                          Comment

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