Samsung LED engine DLP pulled?

[moe32274]

What's going on with the Samsung LED engine DLP set? I read only a week or two ago that it would come out with their 7th generation DLP sets in April. Now, it appears that all of the information / press releases on the LED engine set has been pulled. I'm confused.

Can anyone shed some (LED) light on this issue?


Moe.

[aud19]

Last I heard it was late April/early May....?

I'll keep my eyes open for anything but as far as I know it's still on schedule....

[peterS]

so you went from wanting info to starting a rumor that they are pulled from the market in two sentances? why isnt this deleted?

[moe32274]

so you went from wanting info to starting a rumor that they are pulled from the market in two sentances[sic]? why isnt this deleted?

Excuse me? The fact is Samsung "had" a press release on the HL-S5679W stating that it would be released in April '06. That press release and all other references to the HL-S5679W have been removed from the Samsung website. That is a perfectly legitimate basis for my question.

If you think that I'm starting a "rumor," well, that's your problem.

[aud19]

Guys, play nice.

Peter, I'd say based on them removing references from their page that Moe has the right to be concerned and pose the question. That said, I've not seen/heard anything to doubt they're still on their way. Hopefully someone can find info to either confirm or deny and delays and the thread will stay open for them to post any info if/when it's found.

...As long as everyone remains polite anyways

[moe32274]

I found this bit of non-news on Sound and Vision's website:

"Samsung's HL-S5679W HDTV ($4,199), coming in May, is the first rear-projection set to use LED (light-emitting diode) light sources instead of a conventional lamp. Among the reasons you should care: a 20,000-hour lamp life (more than double typical lamps), a shorter turn-on time (7 seconds), and being able to rattle off one more abbreviation when blabbing about your rig. Thanks to the LEDs, the 1080p DLP set doesn't need a color wheel, so there shouldn't be any color-smearing "rainbow" effects either."

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=5&article_id=1372

Still no information on the Samsung website, however.

[aud19]

Well I guess will find out in about a month :lol:

[Brandon B]

Thanks to the LEDs, the 1080p DLP set doesn't need a color wheel, so there shouldn't be any color-smearing "rainbow" effects either.

The LEDs still flash color-sequentially, so while it will reduce rainbowing, quite possibility to a level where no one whatsoever notices it, they are not guaranteed gone until a decent number of people have seen the sets and commented, IMO.

BB

[aud19]

I still can't wait to see one Brandon!

[Clive]

Peter, Peter, Peter :nono: :nonod: :nonod:

[Brandon B]

I've only seen one of the little "palm-top" LED DLP projectors. It was kind of spiffy, althoug dim dim dim. In the environment I saw it in (conference room at SIGGRAPH), I could not see any color fringing, and I see them on every lamp-based single DLP product I've ever seen, so that was promising.

It would be nice indeed to leave the age of arc lamps. Of course I bought a JVC HDILA 56" last summer, so I'll be using them for a little longer.

BB

[visualdisplays]

what i've heard

I've been watching this product quite closely since CES.

I thought I'd try to add some thoughts, as follows:

On the product release:
- Crutchfield, Tweeter, TV Authority and others appear to be taking "pre-orders" with an approximate ship date *still* listed as May 2006
- Samsung apparently is hosting a "Media Day" this week so hopefully there will be new PR or updates then
- Some of the biggest industry events excluding CES are next week, including SID 2006 in San Francisco and Projection Summit in Florida, I'd be surprised if there weren't some additional announcements then

On rainbow effect:
- As I understand it, the LEDs do switch on and off but for this model the refresh rate has been increased to 48x (versus 6x for standard UHP lamp based systems). So there are really two changes (light source and refresh rate) that taken together should eliminate rainbow effect
- I watched a number of folks mostly television picture quality people wave their hands back and forth in front of all the LED-based TVs at CES. Apparently for the large portion of the population that cannot see rainbow effects, this is a way of making rainbow effects more discernable
- I'm no expert but I can sometimes (but not always!) see rainbow effects in standard DLP sets but I could not make any out

Closing thoughts:
- Of all the advantages talked about with LEDs (no mercury, better gamut, no warm up time/fast restrike, etc.), I was most excited about picture quality. But I worry a little that it's been overdone. The reds look outrageously red especially, and this is fine for showroom to attract buyers, but I find that after viewing for a while that it feels somewhat artificial. Does anyone know how much of the extended color gamut you lose if you try to recalibrate to adjust for a more natural feel?
- Also, has anyone heard about different modes for this TV? E.g. cinema mode with a lower white point setting or video game/animation mode for crazy blown out colors, etc?

Hope to hear from the forum with thoughts/feedback!

[aud19]

Unfoertunately I don't think we'll know much about them until they're released, reviewed and professionally calibrated. I look forward to the HT Mag. review :yesnod:

[visualdisplays]

real news...

CNET's blog has some real news on this.
Here's the link: http://reviews-zdnet.com.com/Alpha/4...6-6530582.html

[aud19]

So not until September then....

[mjgeorge]

Samsung has info back up on their website:

http://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/PressRelease/PressRelease.asp?seq=20060524_0000257858

http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/DLPTV/HLS5679WXXAA.asp

[aud19]

I can't wait to see how these stack up against Sony's SXRD! :banana: If they're even close in PQ they'll be hard to beat with that 20,000 hour "lamp" life :yesnod:

[aud19]

There's a (part one of two) writeup on the PhAt light tech in this months HT Mag. if anyone's interested

[SteveCallas]

Are these still going to be using wobulation to get to 1080p?

[aud19]

Are these still going to be using wobulation to get to 1080p?

I believe so. That's a function of the DLP chip design, not the light engine.

[SteveCallas]

I have no intention of buying a DLP, but I guess I am wondering if that technology is going to be maxed at 1280x720 pixels for some time? Seems they've been stuck there for a while.

[Brandon B]

The tech is absolutely not maxed out at 1280x720. They have been making 2048x1080 chips for D-cinema units for a couple of years and are now making 1920x1080 for consumer front projection. They just don't want to put these chips in RP, not cheap enough.

BB

[aud19]

Speaking of front projection (I know, weak segue :lol: ) Anybody heard anything about this PhAt tech being utilzed in FP's...?

[mjgeorge]

It looks like Luminus Devices, Inc. is the company that commercialized the PhlatLight™ solid state lighting engine.

http://www.luminus.com/

They do list compact projectors as a target application under their "Other PhatLight Applications" section, but provide no specifics as to whether any front projector manufacturers are actively developing with the technology.

They do have some technical write-ups and a picture of one of the chipsets.

[Brandon B]

It is a means of backlighting LCD panels with fewer LEDs, and as such isn't extremely applicable to FP as it is generally done now. You would have to rethink the whole optic train to start with parallel light coming through the display panels, and I think it would not work out for high brightness applications.

BB

[aud19]

It is a means of backlighting LCD panels with fewer LEDs, and as such isn't extremely applicable to FP as it is generally done now. You would have to rethink the whole optic train to start with parallel light coming through the display panels, and I think it would not work out for high brightness applications.

BB

Yeah that's what I was really wondering.... Would they have to make MUCH larger PhAt panels to have enough light output etc? ...I just don't know how scaleable it is....?

[Brandon B]

It's PhlAt, not PhAt . . .

[aud19]

It's PhlAt, not PhAt . . .

aaaah whatever :

[David Meek]

PhAt as in gangsta, and PhlAt as it gangsta got run ovuh? : Sorry, it's been one of those days.

Back OT - sort of - what are the prospects for a 1920x1080 non-wobulated RP-DLP unit? Slim and none?

[Brandon B]

Probably pretty good actually, since they are ramping up production of those chips for the FP single chip market. What you might see, though, is them being reserved for the more flagship RPTVs like the $4K and up models. Or maybe not. I'm just guessing.

BB

[aud19]

Yeah I'm guessing it will be a while yet for "normal" sets....

[Brandon B]

The LEDs still flash color-sequentially, so while it will reduce rainbowing, quite possibility to a level where no one whatsoever notices it, they are not guaranteed gone until a decent number of people have seen the sets and commented, IMO.

BB

Well, to keep you all up to date. My office neighbor is playing with the Mitsubishi pocket projector (1 chip DLP LED unit), and I can see rainbows on it quite as badly as any other DLP I have ever seen.

Caveats to this: While it is a dim projector (30 lumens), is being used to throw a small image so this is fairly bright. Also, this is a very cheap projector, so they may not have elected to use the capabilities of the system to minimize color fringing (rainbows), and may merely be emulating a 2X or 3X color wheel for simplicity. This is a strategy an LED based HT projector would almost certainly NOT follow, and could emulate something like a 50X color wheel which should certainly make it invisible.

But first evidence in is disappointing.

BB

[mjgeorge]

Well, it looks like they've landed - Crutchfield says they have the Samsung HL-S5679W in stock for $3,999.99

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-1zooDHP41Lb/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=147350&I=305HLS5679

[aud19]

Well, it looks like they've landed - Crutchfield says they have the Samsung HL-S5679W in stock for $3,999.99

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-1zooDHP...0&I=305HLS5679

Hallelujah!!! :T

[luvencl]

HL-S5679W comparison to HL-S5687W

I spent an hour last night in viewing the HL-S5679W LED engine version of the DLP's.
1. It definitely gets rid of the rainbow effect.
2. It has plenty of light / contrast no worries there for me! (How the heck needs 10,000:1 in the first place! People are going to burn their eyes out just like we have a generation of people with hearing loss today due to loud music)
3. Could not notice the claim that you must be dead center or you do not get equal light across the screen. It was no worse than the 5687.
4. Sound is better than the HL-S5687W, as it has the build in secluded speakers that seems to hamper sound quality.
5. No more eye strain or headaches!
The last part is the most important part for me.
I just got the HL-S5687W 56" arc lamp version last week. Took it home, fired it up and man, what a great picture!! Has way too much contrast, had to turn way down.
The bad part is that it took me a few hours to realize that my eyes do detect the rainbow effect. I could not see it in the store, and I now know why.
I thought I might share with you the differences.
When I viewed the HL-S5687W at the store, the feed was RGB and the content was a movie. When it comes to film, you do not have in most cases explicit white on black images, the major contributor to the rainbow effect. It was when I was viewing content such as commercials, or shows with white letter on a black background, or white lines used in the news etc, what is when I would see the rainbow effect anytime I moved my eyes. If you stare straight at the image, and not move your eyes, you do not see it.
I have asked other people if they can see it, and they cannot. So it is true that some people are affected by this. I am one of those that are, and in fact even get sensitive to florescent light as it blinks off and on 60 time a second (in the US). I have gotten use to that now days, but it still tires my eyes. That is why I got rid of those bulbs around my house.
What ever the reason, it is hereditary, as my father has the same issue. I need to research this more, but I think it might have something to do with the rate the brain scans the eye signals.
Bottom line, I love DLP, but I will have to return the HL-S5687W and upgrade to the HL-S5679W LED engine version, as it really does bother me enough that I got to the point to watching the old CRT SD TV in the other room. I was getting major eye stress and dizziness from the 5687.
DLP is no doubt the best picture over plasma and LCD ( I have had both). If you are one of those people that are affected by DLP, do try the new LED engine version.
It is easy on the eyes, just as watching a plasma.
If you have any questions, feel free to email me at luvencl@hotmail.com

[aud19]

I've been hearing mixed reviews about the LED-lit Samsungs so I'll be happy to hear any further comments you have on it once you've got it dialed in and used it for a while. Keep us up to date :T

[Brandon B]

I spent an hour last night in viewing the HL-S5679W LED engine version of the DLP's.
1. It definitely gets rid of the rainbow effect.
2. It has plenty of light / contrast no worries there for me! (How the heck needs 10,000:1 in the first place! People are going to burn their eyes out just like we have a generation of people with hearing loss today due to loud music)

1. Cool. The little LED DLP projectors by mitusbishi did not, glad to see someone used the LED engine to do it right.
2. Burn your eyes out? I would assume they got the higher contrast by making the black blacker, not the unit brighter. Was it way brighter than a lamp based unit?

BB

[David Meek]

Only a 4,000:1 contrast ratio? Is this an apples-to-apples comparison with a plasma? Plasmas now run about 10,000:1. The 1080p Pioneer plasma monitor is 3,000:1 and that doesn't cut it.

[Brandon B]

I am one of those that are, and in fact even get sensitive to florescent light as it blinks off and on 60 time a second (in the US). I have gotten use to that now days, but it still tires my eyes. That is why I got rid of those bulbs around my house.

Oh, and since I must compulisvely correct this statement anytime someone makes it, fluorescent lights flicker 120 times per second, as the power passes through zero twice per cycle.

Interesting link on the topic:

http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/ergonomics/lighting_flicker.html

I am with you on the issue, I can see monitor refresh if it's under 80 Hz. Drives me batty. Have yet to see a one chip DLP that had invisible rainbows, I will need to check out the LED based TVs. I saw a 6 primary color system from Genoa Technologies that used two light engines in parallel where the effect was almost gone.

BB

[Brandon B]

Only a 4,000:1 contrast ratio? Is this an apples-to-apples comparison with a plasma? Plasmas now run about 10,000:1. The 1080p Pioneer plasma monitor is 3,000:1 and that doesn't cut it.

Same caveat applies as in front projection. What's the ambient light level in your room? If you have a 10K:1 plasma and a 3K:1 LED DLP, but the amount of ambient light on your screen is 1/1000 as much as its own peak output, you're not seeing better than 1000:1 anyway.

And that figure is also meaningless unless it is measured with the set adjusted or calibrated how you will use it. The 10,000:1 for plasma is for their maximum white screen output (peak white level) compared to the blackest black. If you have then calibrated your plasma so that a 100 IRE full white screen is only 40% of max, you are only getting 4,000:1. Of course, same applies to the DLP unit.

As usual, there are some degree of numbers games going on. Pioneer might just be quoting useable contrast at actual calibrated settings. THey are one of the companies that screws with the numbers less on occasion.

BB