Sharp or Samsung 60" LED

[Armbender]

In the market in the next couple months to replace my Samsung DLP display. I had a great experience with my current samsung but want something a little bigger and with the changes to LED displays with blu-ray, I need to catch up. lol.

Im not going any less than a 60". I want to stay in the LED models. 3D TV and on demand Apps is not necessary for me. Budget is roughly $3000 CAD

Ive been looking at the Samsung UN60C6300

http://www.electronicsforless.ca/tvs-displays-1/led-televisions-127/samsung-un60c6300-60-inch-led-120hz-1080p-flat-panel-hdtv-1856.html

and the Sharp LC60LE810 Aquos

http://www.electronicsforless.ca/tvs-displays-1/lcd-40in-larger-83/sharp-lc60le810-60-aquos-1080p-led-lcd-hdtv-1861.html

Ive heard a lot of good things about Sharp so am willingto give them a try.

Not sure what other models or brands in this price range I shoud be looking at though. Any input would be greatly appreciated

[aud19]

Are these edge-lit or local dimming units? Personally I'd avoid the edge-lit units.

I also don't particularly like the ides of Sharp's four-colour process. The entire video industry from filming to mastering etc is all based on a VERY particular RGB (three colour) based system. Adding a fourth colour may technicaly give you a wider colour gamut but if that's not what the director, studio etc were intending you to see and it's not accurate... why do you want to see it that way?

[Chris D]

Because George Takei says so?

[aud19]

Because George Takei says so?

[Brandon B]

Are these edge-lit or local dimming units? Personally I'd avoid the edge-lit units.

I also don't particularly like the ides of Sharp's four-colour process. The entire video industry from filming to mastering etc is all based on a VERY particular RGB (three colour) based system. Adding a fourth colour may technicaly give you a wider colour gamut but if that's not what the director, studio etc were intending you to see and it's not accurate... why do you want to see it that way?

Well, there's two angles to look at that from. The NTSC and ATSC color gamuts are both pretty weak in producing good yellows. So while the director, studio, etc. mastered a thing to a set of limited primaries, it is likely because they were limited to those, more than that was their ideal.

Adding a "fourth primary" is problematic as you have to create a color decoder that "guesses" what the color would have been if the expanded gamut had been available when the picture was encoded. If Sharp did a decent job, it will probably look decent at least some of the time. And I would assume it can be turned off if your in the mood for accurate color rendition, just like most other "features" can be, like motion flow frame interpolation and all that kind of stuff.

Otherwise, even the expanded RGB gamut you get with LED is sort of wasted.

Separate topic - Sharp's market share has been plummeting over the last couple of years, and you might find better deals on their sets this season. But LCD TC prices in general are going to be really low. The supply chain is way over saturated and they don't want to shut down their fabs, so they gotta clear the channel.

[aud19]

Yeah I'm of the opinion I don't want things that aren't supposed to be there myself. Whether the format is lacking in that department is another subject all together IMO and one that should be dealt with at the source/format standard level. Not "interpreted" by a TV manufacturer.

It's also worth noting that the current Rec.709 colour standard already covers nearly all of the yellow that's visible to the human eye so there's very little room for improvement there. Now if they had added a magenta pixel to help with that area of the colour spectrum or something to aid with creating deeper greens or cyan I might be a little more open to it but yellow's just a waste of time and all marketing IMO.



Not sure if it's defeatable...given it's built right in to the panel I kind of doubt it would be.

[Armbender]

So, I guess thats zero votes for Sharp...lol

Anyone have experience with the above Samsung model

[aud19]

So, I guess thats zero votes for Sharp...lol

Anyone have experience with the above Samsung model

It seems after doing some digging that it's an edge-lit unit which I'm not personally a fan of. They have issues with uneven back lighting and still don't address one of LCD's two main issues which is poor contrast/black levels. (Motion being the other).

Personally I would only look at LED sets with local dimming or just get a plasma.

[Armbender]

It seems after doing some digging that it's an edge-lit unit which I'm not personally a fan of. They have issues with uneven back lighting and still don't address one of LCD's two main issues which is poor contrast/black levels. (Motion being the other).

Personally I would only look at LED sets with local dimming or just get a plasma.

Isn't the longevity of the plasma's Alot less. Also is there still burn in problems with them...

At my given budget, what is my best option for a display

[aud19]

Isn't the longevity of the plasma's Alot less. Also is there still burn in problems with them...

At my given budget, what is my best option for a display

A quality plasma or LCD will last you about the same amount of time both of which are likely far longer than just about anyone will actually keep/use the display.

There is a VERY small risk of burn in with plasmas (or any phosphor based display) especially for the first couple hundred hours of the displays life. However if you properly calibrate the display with the AVIA, Digital Video Essentials or even the THX Optimizer found on many discs and get it out of the "torch" mode most displays default to there should be virtually no risk as long as you don't leave a bright static image on it for hours on end.

So basically no there isn't a "problem" with them and their strengths (contrast, black level, motion, off axis viewing etc) over LCDs FAR outweigh any fractionally small risk of burn in.

Personally I'd look at Pansonic's plasma's (at least S but preferably G series) to start with though Samsung also makes decent plasma units. (They have excellent colour etc but give up a bit to the Panasonics in contrast/black levels.

If you're adamant about an LCD Sony, Samsung and LG all make quality examples but make sure you do your homework on CCFL vs LED edge lit vs LED local dimming and know what you're getting in to before you buy. Also make sure you read professional reviews of you model or at least series that do objective testing and measuring to compare actual specs (in other words, don't believe a thing the manufacturers write.)

[Armbender]

Thanks for all your help!.

Im gonna look into the Samsung 63" PNC7000 and PNC8000 Plasma's sometime...reviews look great on them and its around my price range...

[Brandon B]

It's also worth noting that the current Rec.709 colour standard already covers nearly all of the yellow that's visible to the human eye so there's very little room for improvement there.

I'll flat out disagree with that. I've seen a lot of experimental multi primary systems with custom generated media, and yellows are still one of the real weak points in current generation displays IMO.

[aud19]

I'll flat out disagree with that. I've seen a lot of experimental multi primary systems with custom generated media, and yellows are still one of the real weak points in current generation displays IMO.

If you look at the chart I posted above, you'll see the colours the human eyes is able to see (the large multi-coloured area) and the Rec.709 standard as the black triangle. As you can see it covers almost the entire yellow colour spectrum. Deep greens (especially), cyan (and magenta to a lesser extent) are FAR less covered by the standard and hence more in need of any improvement.

Whether you perceive the standard to be deficient there is quite irrelevant. Fact is the standard already does a pretty good job of reproducing yellows particularly when compared with the other colours I mentioned. That also doesn't take in to account the fact that any data that display will receive will not have any of those "extra" colours in the source so where does the display get the information that "X" pixel should me MORE yellow. It's a sham.

[Brandon B]

Very familiar with the CIE chart. I'd point out a few things:

What you posted is the 2D projection of what is actually a 3D space, so you are not looking at a linear representation of what is and is not covered by ATSC in terms of hues;
Even in the CIE diagram, the uncovered portion of the yellow is less than half, but it is on the order of a third of the actual yellow area, discounting where you get into greens and oranges.

But that is sort of talking past the point. I have personally seen extended gamut displays with custom source equipment and material, and there is significant improvement to be made in yellow. Pointing out the CIE chart does nothing to negate that. To me it was on par with the improvement in reds.

The other point we disagree on is Sharp's processing. I completely agree the extended colors do not exist in the source and their algorithms for adding them in are "making them up". I'd disagree that it is a complete sham. If your thing is complete fidelity to the source material per industry standards, and plainly yours is, then this is not a system you'd want. I said that above. It's similar to the arguments about coloring of sound by various components of the audio chain. Some want studio standard fidelity, some want their music "warm and fluid".

Some people actually prefer an extended gamut, though, and if they make that choice with the knowledge it lacks fidelity, I don't see why that's a problem.

Where we probably agree completely is that Sharp's marketing on the topic is likely deceptive.

[aud19]

I will say also that apparently ISF techs HATE them as they're near impossible to calibrate.

[ShadowZA]

... Im gonna look into the Samsung 63" PNC7000 and PNC8000 Plasma's sometime...reviews look great on them and its around my price range...

I have the Samsung 7000 series 63" plasma and I'm very satisfied with it. To help you decide, an idea would be for you to go and take a look at it in store. When there, if possible, get the salesperson to allow you to fiddle with advanced color settings and tweak the image to your satisfaction.

Good luck!

[maseline_98]

I saw a sharp on BB website for $1199....

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Sharp+-+AQUOS+/+60%22+Class+/+1080p+/+120Hz+/+LCD+HDTV/1348076.p?id=1218252650535&skuId=1348076&st=Sharp%20AQUOS%20LC60E78UN%2060%22%201080p%20120Hz%20LCD%20HDTV%20&cp=1&lp=1

[madmac]

" There is a VERY small risk of burn in with plasmas " . Really ?? Everyone I know that has a plasma has witnessed burn in. And, Panasonic Plasmas?? I recently went to a freinds house who had one and I could not get the color right no matter how much I tried! . Super hot yellows...way too hot. Could not control them. Tennis balls were on fire!!. Not accurate at all. I was NOT impressed by that unit at all. If you watch sports with static images (ie...football...basket ball etc) or do any gaming ,, I am sorry but I cannot recommend plasma tv's....period!. Besides....like everything in electronics, they are going obsolete anyway!.

[Ovation]

"Burn in" is practically unheard of in any decent plasma TV in the last 5 years (at least). "Image retention" can occasionally happen (and it is NOT the same as "burn in", though it is often called "burn in" anyway) but it is very rare and not irreversible even when it does happen.

[madmac]

Image retention OR burn in, or whatever you want to call it.....at the end of the day, it's simply not acceptable or pleasant to watch for that matter. R.I.P Plasma !.

[aud19]

To each their own but unless OLED makes a huge leap to affordable 50"+ screens in the next year my next TV will be the 54" S or G series Panasonic plasma. Your burn in concerns are overstated IMHO.

[Ovation]

Image retention OR burn in, or whatever you want to call it.....at the end of the day, it's simply not acceptable or pleasant to watch for that matter. R.I.P Plasma !.

You are free to dislike plasma TVs but the distinction between the two phenomena is important--particularly when discussed on an A/V board that has, among many of its purposes, the purpose of providing useful technical information about A/V gear--whether positive or negative.

IF "burn-in" were still a major issue, plasma would have disappeared already. To call the issue "burn-in" creates a false sense of alarm that is undeserved. Image retention is easily prevented and, on the rare occasions it occurs, easily fixed.

If anything causes plasma to disappear entirely, it will be serious increases in electricity costs to consumers (though the better plasma TVs are getting better re: energy consumption) or IF OLED is A) as good as it is supposed to be and B) is produced on a mass scale at affordable prices.

In the end (and I have no stake in this as I own neither a plasma nor an LCD TV), there are both subjective and objective reasons to favour, or not, plasma.

Brightly lit room with no real escape from high levels of ambient light? Plasma is not the best option.

Need a small screen in tight place? Plasma is out of luck.

Looking to minimize your energy consumption? Plasma is not the best option.

All of these are indisputable, objective reasons to prefer something other than plasma.

I'll leave the subjective ones alone, in the aggregate (too many, pro and con, to list in a short span of time), except to provide my own subjective preference for plasma:

I prefer the look of a well-set up plasma to any LCD I've seen at similar prices.

I MUCH prefer how sports look on a plasma than any LCD I've seen at similar prices.

I find off-axis viewing to be better on a plasma than most LCDs I've seen, regardless of price class.

I still haven't seen anything beat a plasma in a light-controlled room for contrast and black levels.

But, as aud19 pointed out--to each his own.

[madmac]

All stores are blowing out LCD's and plasmas now super cheap. Of course, LED's are expensive now and will of course, become affordable in time.....probably sooner than later. Nobody is disputing the fact that plasma's produce better contrast and blacks than LCD's but then again.......blacks are a tad overrated in my view. More importantly in my view, is getting proper color out of all these 'Hi-def' sets!. Have you been in the average bar watching sports?? The colors are infernal....hot,hot, hot......grass on fire??!!. Tennis balls florescent yellow??. I have a Sony SXRD LcOs monitor properly adjusted and set up and I love the picture I get off this set. Colors are correct and the contrast is very good. Probably not as good as a Plasma set but at least the colors and color temp. are correct!.

[aud19]

In reality they're all important aspects of a picture. I'd argue the most important is for the set to be able to reproduce as accurate of a grey across the entire spectrum as possible from black to white as it's the foundation the entire picture is based on.

Accurate colour is also important but excuse me if I don't judge a display on how the local sports bar has it set up.

Contrast/black level is also high on the list as this is what will give an image the depth and reality and along with resolution lends us the sense of textures.

[madmac]

Well said Aud19. You would think though that someone in these bars would tone the sets down a bit??. It hurts to watch them!!. The grayscale remark is true and my set, in custom setting allows me to adjust it. Cnet did a review of my set and in that review, gave details as to where the settings should be for accurate grayscale so I lucked out on that one!.

[Ovation]

At the Bell Centre, where the Montreal Canadiens play their home games, they have the biggest hi-def screen system in any indoor arena (until someone gets a bigger one, of course). I go to a couple of games a season and since they got the new screen, they show a live feed of the game on the screen (can see replays and get close ups for those in the "nose bleeds"). First thing I noticed is they must have their screen in "Vivid" mode. The colours are wrong (and I can check against the real thing, so it is quite clear). I'm sure they could make it better (more natural) but it would probably be less bright. And since nobody but me seems to care, they're not in any hurry.

ANY format will look less than ideal if not properly set up for grayscale and colour. But that is not specific to any one format. And those who set up TVs in bars are not ISF techs, by any stretch of the imagination.

[madmac]

@ Ovation....In my opinion, you don't have to be a TV tech guy to see when something doesn't look real on a TV. Like you said about the Bell Center Monitor. You are comparing the real thing vs. what you are seeing on the monitor because you are actually there, and it is all wrong. 'Vivid' is the absolute worse possible setting you can choose on your monitor. It doesn't take Einstein to see when something on your monitor looks correct and when it looks all wrong color wise. You've seen the Canadian or American flag for real many times so when you see it on a monitor, it should look JUST like the real thing right?. Grass is another big one. I don't know how many monitors I've seen that show Grass wrong!!. Greens and Yellows are BIG problems with these new hi-def monitors. I personally think that you can NEVER get the new HDTV's color and gray scale absolutely correct on ANY set, but you can get it so that it is bye and large, pleasant to watch and looks relatively correct in most cases. Most don't bother it seems and pop it out of the box and turn it on....BIG MISTAKE!!