Poor Infocus 4805 Lamp Life

[toohighpsi]

Well I was really happy with the performance of my 4805 untill a couple days ago. I've had the projector for about 10 months and while my kids were watching a movie the other night the lamp exploded. (it was nothing short of an explosion either, I heard it from the second floor and it's mounted in the basement) The unit is ceiling mounted, with nothing nearby and had a whopping 480 hours on the bulb - a little over 1/10th of it's advertised life.

Has anyone has similiar experience? I'm not really happy with this, but worst of all I have no explaination for the failure. I'm concerned that it will happen again if nothing has changed. There was not a spec of dirt in the filters and nothing restricting airflow to the unit.

Interesting item I found on the Infocus FAQ was that they have a statement about unchecking the low power box listed under the "Maximizing lamp life FAQ" everything I read up to the point of purchasing the projector suggested low power extended lamp life. I did notice that switching to high power only increases the lamp power from 160W to 200W, but turns on an additional fan that moves much more air through the unit.

I'd be plenty happy to run at high power if I could get close to the rated 3000 hours, otherwise this unit will not make it much longer in this house....

I'd appreciate any comments. Thanks!

Mike Sitar

[Brandon B]

You got a bad lamp. See if whoever you bought it from will do anything for you. Lamp warranty is generally 90 days, so you will maybe have some negotiating to do.

BB

[Claude D D]

1000+ hours (14 months)running in low power mode(the fan noise in high power setting is way to loud)and no problems with my SP4805. :T

[draganm]

the other night the lamp exploded. (it was nothing short of an explosion either, I heard it from the second floor and it's mounted in the basement) The unit is ceiling mounted, with nothing nearby and had a whopping 480 hours on the bulb - a little over 1/10th of it's advertised life.
if I could get close to the rated 3000 hours, otherwise this unit will not make it much longer in this house....
I'd appreciate any comments. Thanks!
Mike Sitar

well you asked for comments, and I guess the first thing that comes to my mind is if bought a brand new electronic device and it exploded after a few hundred hours I would be spittin-mad. :M The longest lived and best proven projection tech. out there now is CRT. They're big and complicated, but if you can handle those drawbacks the pic is excellent and most of them are rated for 100K chassis hours / 10K per set of tubes. BTW, the tubes slowly go idim after 10 or 15K, but they never explode. :W

[Claude D D]

well you asked for comments, and I guess the first thing that comes to my mind is if bought a brand new electronic device and it exploded after a few hundred hours I would be spittin-mad. :M The longest lived and best proven projection tech. out there now is CRT. They're big and complicated, but if you can handle those drawbacks the pic is excellent and most of them are rated for 100K chassis hours / 10K per set of tubes. BTW, the tubes slowly go idim after 10 or 15K, but they never explode. :W

Yeah I guess.
A 78 Buick is probably safer to drive than my 93 Civic too.But you can have it. :W Not everyone can or would want to hang whale of a crt from their ceiling. Plus the new wave of HT LCD and DLP projo's make it affordable and convenient for a whole new market to enjoy a decent quality 92"+ picture in their homes.CRT's might not explode but they also do have their share of problems. :stupidpc:
The main thing is to enjoy what you have. If a guy has to cough up a few $$ to get a bulb, then go for it and get back in the game. :T

[Brandon B]

They do need to stop selling lamps with claimed lives in the 3-5000 hour range when the number of people who are getting well under 1000 seems to be growing.

BB

[Kevin P]

I think they need to stop using expensive, proprietary bulbs in these PJs and use something more mass market, such as the HID lamps used in higher-end car headlights, for example. You don't hear of those things exploding after <1000 hours, at least I haven't. And I bet they're cheaper than the projector bulbs.

And another idea: part of the reason these bulbs don't last very long is because they're driven hard. It's a tiny bulb with tiny electrodes that wear out fast. Why not use a larger bulb that can be constructed to last longer, and put out the same amount of light without stressing the bulb as much? At $400 a pop, it can't be a cost issue.

[draganm]

Yeah I guess.
A 78 Buick is probably safer to drive than my 93 Civic too.But you can have it. :W Not everyone can or would want to hang whale of a crt from their ceiling. Plus the new wave of HT LCD and DLP projo's make it affordable and convenient for a whole new market to enjoy a decent quality 92"+ picture in their homes.CRT's might not explode but they also do have their share of problems. :stupidpc:
The main thing is to enjoy what you have. If a guy has to cough up a few $$ to get a bulb, then go for it and get back in the game. :T

well actually in crash I would rather be in civic, impact absorbing chassis design, modern seatbelts, not to mention airbags all beat being hosed off the dash by the fire dept. Yeah everyone should enjoy what they have, but it's kinda hard when it's exploding. :B there's plenty of reason to own a bulb machine, but reliability and pic quality aren't on the list. The size is a big issue for some people, but I don't think about that when my theatre goes completely black and only a CRT allows that to happen.

[Cooldmitriy]

There those lamps made in China? If yes, here is the answer. Just another crappy product buy cheap or free labor.
Just my 2 c.

[Brandon B]

I think they need to stop using expensive, proprietary bulbs in these PJs and use something more mass market, such as the HID lamps used in higher-end car headlights, for example. You don't hear of those things exploding after <1000 hours, at least I haven't. And I bet they're cheaper than the projector bulbs.

And another idea: part of the reason these bulbs don't last very long is because they're driven hard. It's a tiny bulb with tiny electrodes that wear out fast. Why not use a larger bulb that can be constructed to last longer, and put out the same amount of light without stressing the bulb as much? At $400 a pop, it can't be a cost issue.

Won't work. The tiny point source these arc lamps have is what allows the projector to be as bright and as small and as cheap as it is. If you went with a bigger lamp, you would have to have bigger lenses and other optics, bigger microdisplay chips, bigger projector. Guess what. Your projector's price just increased by 5X.

Read up on system etendue to get a clear idea of why this is. Here is an IBM site link that explains part it.

http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/423/doany.html

The relevant bit:

Optical throughput of the projection system

The total projector light throughput is the amount of light delivered by the optical projection system to the viewing screen and is measured as the total light flux, F, in units of lumens. Three parameters contribute to limiting the total light flux. The first, the optical transmission factor (Tos), results from losses introduced by all of the optical components in the total system light path, including polarization and spectral filtering losses. Another is the brightness of the light source, or its luminance Bs, which is measured in units of lumens/sr-m2 (or cd/m2). Finally, the light flux is restricted by the product of the light-acceptance solid angle and the area of the limiting aperture in the projection optical system. This quantity is known as the étendue (E), or "optical extent," of the system and is measured in units of sr-m2. For typical projection systems using small SLMs, the limiting aperture is the size of the SLM, and the solid acceptance angle is derived from the f-number. The projection system's light flux Fp, in lumens, is given [3] by

Fp=Bs • E • Tos. (1)

For our specific application of projection systems, an arc lamp typically encased in an integral parabolic or ellipsoidal reflector currently available from vendors is used to provide maximum arc/reflector alignment efficiency. For convenience in the analysis of the projection system throughput, the luminance Bs of the light source is assumed to include brightness-limiting effects due to the lamp reflector as well as the arc lamp itself. This allows the separation of lamp-related contributions from optical-system contributions. Thus, for a specific lamp, the effective light-source luminance is a function of the arc-lamp properties (lamp power, arc size, luminous efficacy, and distortion due to the bulb envelope) and the reflector properties (geometric efficiency of the reflector, optical coatings efficiency ofthe reflector, and distortion due to the optical quality of the reflector). These factors together define the effective light-source luminance, Blamp, which includes the lamp/reflector étendue . For a system designed for maximum efficiency, this étendue should match the étendue of the projection system.

Net result is bigger lamps don't do what we want. The problem is the industry was not ready for then demand of RPTV lamp replacement. Until it catches up (probably 2 years or so) by added capacity or China jumping into this particular game (might happen), we're hosed. Just wish they'd quit lying.

BB

[RobP]

It is amazing that these bulbs are that expensive, In movie theatre advertsing they can project a fairly bright image on a large screen with a 50ft throw with a 300watt EXY bulb that cost about $10. Heck even some of the 2000k Xenon bulbs are only around $400 for the big projectors.

[Brandon B]

Old tech vs. new, plus a dose of monopoly profit thrown in. If the Chinese do jump into the game, just watch.

BB

[purplepeople]

No comparison.

You don't want to know what a 35mm projector lens costs. First they are usually made by a German optics company. Then they have to withstand enough heat to vaporize a film strip in about half a second.

ensen

It is amazing that these bulbs are that expensive, In movie theatre advertsing they can project a fairly bright image on a large screen with a 50ft throw with a 300watt EXY bulb that cost about $10. Heck even some of the 2000k Xenon bulbs are only around $400 for the big projectors.

[Brandon B]

My favorite thing in that regard is the lamp power supply for the IMAX system we put in one attraction.

It is a big Miller wire feed welder power unit. Lamp was 15 or 20,000 watts. Bzzzzzzzt.

BB

[RobP]

Hey Brandon, what power supply and lamp house are they using on those 70mm projectors?

Purplepeople, I was just talking about the prices of the bulbs, now those 35mm lenses are another story, major$$$$. Heck even the Elmo 70-125 lenses for the Ad projectors are around $650.

[Brandon B]

Which ones?

BB

[RobP]

The power supplys for the IMAX theatre.

[Brandon B]

Power supply - I can't remember what the specific model was but it was one of the really big industrial miller welder units like this:

http://www.millerwelds.com/products/submergedarc/packages/

The lamp house is an IMAX-designed and built unit. And they are not standard 70mm (as you know, but for others reading along), they turn the 70mm film sideways and use a much larger frame on the same stock. From Wiki:

To do this, 70 mm film stock is run "sideways" through the cameras. While traditional 70 mm film has an image area that is 48.5 mm wide and 22.1 mm tall (for Todd-AO), in IMAX the image is 69.6 mm wide and 48.5 mm tall. In order to expose at standard film speed of 24 frames per second, three times as much film needs to move through the camera each second.

Big impressive machine.

BB

[Andrew M Ward]

Infocus Posts 3rd-quarter Loss

INFOCUS POSTS 3RD-QUARTER LOSS

As expected when they opened their distribution to Costco-Target-Walmart-and any mass merchandizer or gas station that submitted a P.O.

[draganm]

INFOCUS POSTS 3RD-QUARTER LOSS
As expected when they opened their distribution to Costco-Target-Walmart-and any mass merchandizer or gas station that submitted a P.O.

so what are you saying, is there any reason you shouldn't be able to pick-up a DLP at Circle-K along with your Dolly-cakes n coffee? :B

[wildfire99]

INFOCUS POSTS 3RD-QUARTER LOSS

As expected when they opened their distribution to Costco-Target-Walmart-and any mass merchandizer or gas station that submitted a P.O.

I don't get it. They make the same profit off each unit, and now they sell more units, correct? How is that a bad thing? They already sold in the likes of Magnolia Hi-Fi, so I'm not exactly putting them on a Runco pedestal or anything. As with a lot of things, the wave of the future appears to be "stack-em-high, sell-em-cheap". I bet Optoma and BenQ are doing well... and look at the response for Sony (who already had to can their Qualia line due to sales).

I think Infocus is coming off a long, hard road of exclusive dealer sales and high prices, and hopefully they pulled out of that nosedive just in time.

[BretLuke82]

I don't get it. They make the same profit off each unit, and now they sell more units, correct? How is that a bad thing?

You would think that's how it would go, wouldn't you ? The reality is, when opening up your sales to those stores, you've got a lot of work ahead of you. A company like InFocus is now forced to produce way more units than they normally would. That shouldn't be too hard, just hire more employees, right ? Sure, but Wal-Mart (probably some others as well, Costco and whatnot) requires your company to do some things for them. You now have to cut down your cost to produce each unit, because Wal-Mart won't sell it unless they can sell it for cheaper than everyone else. Also, as I said, you have to cut costs while producing way more units than you ever imagined. On top of that, Wal-Mart is going to cut prices by a certain percentage every year. This requires you to try and find a way to cut costs each year. So, now each year you have to spend more money in researching ways to cut costs. Then you have to actually cut costs. And the cycle continues...

Pretty much, it takes a really strong company to be able to meet Wal-Mart's stringent demands. That's why so much labor gets outsourced overseas. Levi Strauss closed all (except 1 I think) of their U.S. plants just to be able to produce enough jeans for Wal-Mart. I'm using Wal-Mart in my example because I know how they work, not sure about the others, but they may be the same.

[Andrew M Ward]

Infocus Posts 3rd-quarter Loss

I wrote this in April or May this year...

Now that In Focus has decided to sell their products to absolutely anybody with a pulse and a P.O. book, including Costco Target K-Mart and Sears...

I can imagine the price will drop like a stone, no self respecting dealer with a trained video staff will touch the stuff here in a few months.

Give it 8 months... and In Focus will be 15% cheaper than it is today, but only available from mass merchandisers.

And in 24 months the profits will be completely driven out of the product (because of the mass-re-seller price battling) They will bait In Focus with larger and larger Purchase orders at lower and lower profit margins and In Focus gear will begin to suffer in quality to meet demand and dropping dealer profits...

We've seen it happen before. Kef...

Just to name one example from the 90's, but the same formula still applies, mark this spring on the calendar and check again in the spring of 2007, by then In Focus will have a suffering image problem and no high-end support, so they'll have no avenue to sell their hi-end products, only $1500 projectors, so in return they will have no avenue to support research and development and the rest will be history...

Boy do I sound Pompous... Too many years in this industry watching the same thing happen over and over and over...

Resist the huge Purchase Order from the Major Chain, stay medium sized and profitable. That is the only way you can retain control of your company, your products, and your ability to invest in your employees and technology for research and development.

Just my 2 cents
Andrew Ward

It happened even faster than I think we all expected.
BTW: What they did and the business decisions they made (InFocus) are not unique or different than so many companies in our very difficult market.

That said...

You might expect a more attentive eye to this trend or it won't stop happening... Keep your eyes open... we'll see it again, and you'll be able to chart it (the inevitable failure) like a 3rd grade math student.

Just more 2 cents

[draganm]

. I bet Optoma and BenQ are doing well... and look at the response for Sony (who already had to can their Qualia line due to sales).

maybe it had something to do with a $1500. replacement bulb? Even people with more money than brains aren't THAT stupid. $30K for a Qualia projector with 2000:1 contrast ratio is a joke, 1080P or not.
If Optoma wants to sell at costco, good for them. It makes HT affordable for everyone. I remember buying my first Mirage/Marantz Pro Logic 5 channel HT system in 1992 for $2K. That was a good chunk of money back then, today you can match that quality (an exceed with true DD 5.1) for half the money. The more people the better, we hobbyists already in it can only benefit. Especially if you upgrade your DLP every couple of years like most people.

[Andrew M Ward]

maybe it had something to do with a $1500. replacement bulb? Even people with more money than brains aren't THAT stupid. $30K for a Qualia projector with 2000:1 contrast ratio is a joke, 1080P or not.
If Optoma wants to sell at costco, good for them. It makes HT affordable for everyone. I remember buying my first Mirage/Marantz Pro Logic 5 channel HT system in 1992 for $2K. That was a good chunk of money back then, today you can match that quality (an exceed with true DD 5.1) for half the money. The more people the better, we hobbyists already in it can only benefit. Especially if you upgrade your DLP every couple of years like most people.

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't care if InFocus loses 6 million dollars a quarter.

I also think everybody who wants one should be able to buy one where ever they feel comfy.

I'm just pointing out the business related issues in regards to "Business with majors" and attempting to be profitable (simultaneously)

so we understand why:
when people start to notice a huge quality drop in InFocus gear and whacky accesorie pricing (to compensate for seeling projectors below mfg cost) and all other sorts of seemingly random issues... They are directly related to:

"attemting to do business with majors and be prfitable at the same time"

No worries

[draganm]

whacky priced accessories, you mean like a $350. bulb for a $999. projector? That's already the norm, same business model used on printer cartridges for the last 2 decades. As far as attempting to do business with Wal-Mart, well it would be stupid for any company to stick it's neck in that noose, but some will anyway. Costco is also aiming pretty low, but then again Best Buy and CC aren't much better.
The truth is, most people will never even wander into a high-end shop, believing there's nothing affordable in there for the average guy. Hell, the avergae house-husband isn't even ALLOWED to go in there by his wife.
So from a manufact. perspective, by offering a cheesy DLP at costco, you will probly hook the average joe-schmo but you also might lure in the guy who will really gets into the hobby and upgrades down the road to a better product, hopefully from the same company. It dosen't neceassrily have to affect the price of yuor upper tier products, and the cheap stuff will be always be poorly made.

[Andrew M Ward]

So from a manufact. perspective, by offering a cheesy DLP at costco, you will probly hook the average joe-schmo but you also might lure in the guy who will really gets into the hobby and upgrades down the road to a better product, hopefully from the same company. It dosen't neceassrily have to affect the price of yuor upper tier products, and the cheap stuff will be always be poorly made.

Well,
You’ve assisted in proving my point. (Thank you) :W

What you've said above is exactly what manufacturers believe when they take that first step into Costco or Wal-Mart. Just exactly what you've said.

InFocus was profitable 0ne year ago

Today they are not, yet they have more than tripled their sales. Please explain why? Read the email I wrote above 8 months ago, when I predicted that a profitable InFocus would no longer be profitable after deciding to expand their distribution to the huge mass marketers.

This is an old story (it's not like I'm a psychic) it happens all the time.

[Brandon B]

maybe it had something to do with a $1500. replacement bulb? Even people with more money than brains aren't THAT stupid. $30K for a Qualia projector with 2000:1 contrast ratio is a joke, 1080P or not.

The Qualia is not discontinued. According to Sony reps, it will be receiving some upgrades and continue as a product (probably new generation panels and a dynamic iris). Don't know if the price will change, though.

BB

[wildfire99]

Weird...

"Sony refused to specify which businesses would be trimmed, but the company's president, Ryoji Chubachi, said research costs for its Aibo robot division will be reduced, and no new product development will be carried out in its high-end Qualia brand line."

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050922/japan_sony.html?.v=9

Elsewhere it seems the Qualia line in the U.S. is being continued with sales of existing models, although supposedly there is no new product development. Perhaps they are simply continuing with retrofits they already started on? Do you think they'll make a Qualia-type product by enhancing the current Ruby unit, but not badge it a Qualia?

[Brandon B]

The talk from Qualia sellers is that the 004 will be getting some kind of upgrade to boost contrast. Otherwise, as you all say, who'd buy it over a Ruby? (and BTW, Qualia lamp assemblies are $3K, not $1.5K :E )

I suppose they might drop the Qualia badging, but I can't think of a good reason for doing so, especially if the line is continuing, albeit without new products.

BB

[GreenApple123]

I love my RPTV and recently the lamp blew out on it. I bought a new one from an online site I found called http://www.laptopsforless.com/rptvlamp and it works great. Has anyone else purchased replacement lamps for their RPTV before? Is it OK to do through an online company?

[Arneson]

I have a bunch of projectors here. Two Infocus mounted on the ceiling and three parts machines somewhere in the garage with bad bulbs.
You have found a very good source at that site for bulbs and many other parts.
I have done business with them, no problems.

[JaceTheAce]

That's why we use the amazing reliable technology of CRT projectors!