Sony's DLP Killing 1080P $10,000 SXRD FPTV

[Shane Martin]

Aka "Ruby" is it's nickname



41 lbs
22db fan noise(impossible to hear with your ear next to the case)
HDMI/DVI
1920 x 1080 resolution
SXRD/LCOS technology
Zeiss Optics
15,000:1 Contrast via dynamic iris
400W Xenon Bulb good for 2,500 hours but at $1,000 each :x

[George Bellefontaine]

That's a mighty expensive lamp. $10K USD would make the Ruby about $12-$13K CDN, so that's still a bit rich for my retirement fund. I can see , though, that this will cause quite a stir and just about kill sales for those $12K one chip dlp machines.

[aud19]

I doubt it will kill sales George but it will sure as hell drive their prices down! :P Heck if 3 chip DLP doesn't come down to at least close to, if not cheaper than that, I'd be surprised!

[George Bellefontaine]

Hope you're right, Jason.

[Shane Martin]

It has already started to do that. The Infocus 777 is now only $15,000 instead of over $20k. JVC has lowered the price of their 1080P DILA.

So far it hasn't pushed down the price of 720P DLp's lower than 3k yet.

[wildfire99]

The 720p BenQ PE7700 is already easily found for $2500ish. It's coming.

[Shane Martin]

I meant MSRP.

[Jack Gilvey]

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Mitsubishi-HC3000.htm

[Dean McManis]

$1000 a piece is what I had to pay for my JVC D-ILA bulb, and it only had a 1000hr lifespan.

$10K is certainly pricey, but compared to Sony's recent Qualia FPTV unit at $30K, this looks like a bargain.
The only trick is the 800 lumens (uncalibrated) light output.

[KeithM]

for that bulb price, you might almost be better off getting a CRT projector. They'll offer an even higher contrast and you get about the same price of cost per hour.

[Azeke]

It's certainly a beautiful piece of equipment. However, it doesn't seem economically feasible from a price/perfomance perspective, even if I could afford it.

Regards,

Azeke

[Shane Martin]

:scratchhead: :huh:

However, it doesn't seem economically feasible from a price/perfomance perspective, even if I could afford it.

Huh? The initial price is $10k for a 1080P FPTV. Name me one fptV that is even competitive with that? Bang for the buck is off the charts here. It's $5,000 cheaper than ANY 1080P FPTV on the market and CHEAPER than even some high end 720P DLPs.

[Trevor Schell]

That is a good price.
I remember the DLP Sharp 1rst generation FPTV's
retailing for 18K afew years back (4 years)
This is a great price for a new technology being
introduced versus what it was back then for the newest and coolest.
So Shane!
Are you getting one?

[Azeke]

:scratchhead: :huh:

Huh? The initial price is $10k for a 1080P FPTV. Name me one fptV that is even competitive with that? Bang for the buck is off the charts here. It's $5,000 cheaper than ANY 1080P FPTV on the market and CHEAPER than even some high end 720P DLPs.

My humble apologies you are correct. I was looking at a previous post and the cost of a bulb, which was not even relative to the lamp cost of this machine ops: .

Best regards,

Azeke

[Brandon B]

Actually, lamps for the Ruby are projected to be $800-1000 ($1000 list price has been heard from Sony reps) also. So it's pretty relative.

There is a worrisone question arising of whether it accepts 1080p24sf on its digital rather than component inputs that people are trying to get info on. If it does not, then that is a major problem for enjoying Sony's upcoming BD without unnecessary deinterlacing and processing going on to make good use of 48Hz playback.

BB

[DifferentLee]

See my thread on the Grand Wega sets for $4K and $5K for an equally good but cheaper alternative.

[Brandon B]

How is 60" equally good to a 10' or so FP system?

As the quote goes - "You measure your TV in inches? That's cute!"

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[Brandon B]

For those not following closely, Widescreen Review's Greg Rogers has finished looking at a unit. He's pretty damn pleased with it overall, and the contrast is somewhat insane. Haven't read the review, I am going by comments of those who have (not a subscriber).

3000:1 with no iris, 5,000 or 6000 with iris engaging static mode, and something in excess of 15,000:1 with auto-iris mode. ANSI was pretty good too (although less than the top DLPs).

Sony just kicked sand in every DLP FP makers face. Let's see what they come up with. And look for things like the InFocus 777 and similar 720p 3 chips to drop in price over the next 6 months by, oh, $10,000.

Basically anyone who can afford this and has light control and a screen under 120" would eb nuts to consider anything else. Even CRT guys are perking their ears, er, eyes. (Jon?)

BB

[JonMarsh]

It WOULD be interesting to see one of these. I've got a hankering for one of those Canon's for biz use, this Sony ought to be very good, if there aren't any obvious issues with the dynamic iris. Let's face it, even 5:000 to 1 is pretty respectable.

And I haven't even had time to setup my 10PG yet! But soon... I've got a climate controlled storage unit now, somewhere to safely keep my 9PG+, the extra tubes, all kinds of wood and electronics stuff, etc. Started moving things there this week.

Still, I think the Sony is the one for the Single chip 1080P DLPs to beat- I'm very skeptical that they won't have quite visible issues with temporal dithering in moving low light scenes. OTOH, at 10K, it's not a mass market item yet.


~Jon

[wildfire99]

The only downsides are that the bulbs are $999, and it's dim. Very, very dim (with any of the contrast-enhancing iris engaged), compared to mainstream DLPs today.

My main concern now is that, with so many people itching to get one, I might have to pay almost MSRP to get one before 2nd qtr 2006. Oh well. :P

I doubt Infocus or Sim2 will react to this. I still like the reply from Marantz (in some other forum) over their continued 'premium' pricing of their 720p 12S4 model. To paraphrase, "don't buy a higher contrast, less expensive, lower screendoor, no dithering, smoother picture, better scaling projector because... well... because we have a really cool lens, and it cost a lot of money!"

Still, Sony's "killer" product will be stillborn unless and until they move away from the regional protected-dealer model. Infocus and Sim2 (and Marantz) have nothing to worry about as long as their products are the only ones represented in dealer shops, regardless of their pricing. None of them like online sales, that's stuff for the bottom feeders like Optoma and BenQ, who likely shift as many units in a day as the rest of them do all week. But the investors like the 'big name' effect of exclusivity. At least, that's the only reasoning I can think of for some of these incredibly slow progressions in the marketplace.

[Brandon B]

What are the DLPs you consider bright by comparison?

BB

[wildfire99]

Once you start playing with an Iris you drop light, so it's not an inherent light engine problem I don't think.

VW-100 (open iris) vs. H79 (no Iris): 539 lumens (3010:1) vs. 578 lumens (2900:1)
VW-100 (closed iris) vs. DPX-1200 (closed iris): 244 lumens (5290:1) vs. 385 lumens (4390:1)

Contrast aside, the H79 can spit out 1100 lumens, while the DPX-1200 will push 848 lumens in max torch mode. Sony specs the VW-100 at 800 lumens max, and will probably spit out less than that in max torch mode. The Infocus 7210, considered the contrast/brightness king, is rated at 1100 lumens. The BenQ PE8720, the only unit I would consider over the Sony, is also rated 1000 lumens (obviously max torch, no iris).

The Sony wasn't built to be bright, it was built to throw an amazing picture. My current PJ (was, will be is if I can find a lamp for it) an HT1000, which is probably the King of Dim (439 lumens max, 259 with everything clamped down for max contrast) for any more modern projector, so I don't have an issue with the Sony. I think most people however will, because while I take my home cinema seriously enough to make it into a bat cave with black walls, that's way too far for average joe, who wants to watch football with the lights on. That makes the Sony an incredibly poor choice for anything other than it's 1080p resolution capabilities, I think.

And remember that these figures are for a relatively new lamp. You'll lose up to 50% of that figure by the end of the lamp's lifetime, so that is definately not pretty. Even with a high-power screen, my HT1000's output (similar to the Sony's) is lackluster, although still acceptable given the contrast abilities of the unit (which to me, is most important to the realism). As a caveat, I am running a 116" wide screen.

I'm sure people with more average screens will be much better off, but then if I'm paying as much for a projector as a small car costs, I want something amazing. All that said, I'm still getting one of the Sonys. It just delivers, but it's not the all-delivering savior of projection, just a well-engineered step up.

[Brandon B]

You've failed to include the lumen ratings for auto-iris mode. So it is not true that you drop the light when playing with the iris, only in static "on" setting do you do that. The auto iris setting bumps the output back up to the open iris levels, and gives you 15,000:1 contrast, albeit potentially with some white compression issues Greg mentioned, but which Sony may address in the shipping version.

Are you ruling out use of the auto iris setting without having seen it?

BB

[wildfire99]

From what I understand the auto-iris is going to perform some of its magic by clamping down even more than is available in auto-on, so you're actually going dimmer than the minimum value there.

The full open value (with or without auto-iris) is still maxing out at 539 lumens, calibrated, as Greg measured. In that instance you're right, you have reasonable lumens for the really bright scenes, but what happens when you have the instance of (as someone else mentioned elsewhere) the "torch-in-the-cave", where you have to reproduce full white along with full black? You know the Optoma, for instance, is going to be able to do that to the best of it's ANSI contrast ability (which is higher than the Sony's in any mode).

I'm not saying the Sony is a bad unit, as I've noted I'm getting one. So I'm not here as a DLP fanboy or anything. However it's not going to fit the bill for everyone, especially in the brightness department, I think. And that's important.

Besides, none of us have seen it at all, so it's speculation. Perhaps I'll be able to see the iris move, I see DLP rainbows already. Perhaps the Xenon lamp will catch fire because my room isn't air conditioned and stays around 75 degrees. Perhaps the Xenon bulb dimming issue won't be a problem and we'll have 3000+ hour bulb usage. There are tons of little ifs that we'll all find out in a couple months.

Anyway, I still believe that for someone to recommend the Sony for someone looking for a non-light controlled room, who wants to run the thing with the lights on, or who is shooting onto a large perforated screen or other large non-gain screen, is not the best idea. That's all just based on measured and stated machine specs. I myself prefer a dim image, but most people don't, I think. I base that assumption on sales of plasma TVs.

I think one of the things to look at, that nobody's measured, is how many lumens the Sony can push in full on, uncalibrated torch mode. The DLPs can push a lot, as measured. Anyway that's all I have to say about it.

What I think is still a huge unanswered question that pertains to the success of this unit is going to be price and availability. I'm seeing the more scammy sites out there pricing it at less than $8k, and usually they're not too far down from what you could really wrangle in from a hungry dealer. I still haven't seen anything regarding their distribution model, though I hear it's the usual protected dealer BS (no sales outside your defined "region").

[Brandon B]

However it's not going to fit the bill for everyone, especially in the brightness department, I think. And that's important.

Don't have to tell me that, I've got a PLV70 and a Highpower.

I am just willing to bet that when they ship the unit in its final form, the auto-iris function is going to work pretty well to most (even many critical) people's satisfaction. And that will allow you to have acceptable brightness too.

Sony is going into this with some experience under their belt as they have been making the HS-51 for some time now (well, at least in projector years. I guess it' actually been what, 10 months?). And most think they got a pretty useable compromise in that system.

If I had a bit more money, I would probably get one of these soon too. As it is I will probably have to wait a year to save a bit more oney and wear my wife down with whining about how old the Sanyo is. There's also the hope all the hint dropping over at AVS about a much brighter followup product has some factual basis.

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[wildfire99]

What's to make us think that the followup isn't just a Qualia 007 product (well, that kind of level even if the name got whacked) with an MSRP in the $15,000+ range? Ok, so that's still impressive, but now we're getting into kind of "cost-no-object" territory, and those expensive 1080 DLP's are coming up fast.

Meh... I'm just irritated because I still feel that the current $3-$6k range of projectors is pretty much dead in the water in terms of progress, and it's taking a long time for all this cool stuff to trickle down. The Sony is painfully expensive, even if it is impressive. I thought the new BenQ would do the trick but they're pricing that into oblivion coming in this late in the game. The new D5 LCDs are yawners too. Evolution not revolution, except for this little number here.

[DifferentLee]

How is 60" equally good to a 10' or so FP system?

Brandon,

I would agree that 10 feet beats 5 feet but for those of us with small HT rooms 60" or 50" can be fine...just depends on size and optimal viewing distance.

[Brandon B]

I was just picking on the phrase "equally good" because you didn't tack "image quality" onto the end, but sort of left it open ended.

On a related topic, surfing a bit in the RPTV subforum elsewhere, I keep running into these guys who say 8 or 10' is too close to sit to a 70" RPTV. Which is just insane to me given that (as you pointed out) these new RPTV are putting out a smaller but equally stunning image to PJs like the Ruby. Scaling their argument would imply you should sit 18 feet away from a 120" FP setup, which is insane.

Anyone here feel that way and have a logical reason why the two situations are not comparable?

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[wildfire99]

The RPTV distance thing sounds to me like perfectly good reasoning for smooth viewing on non-HD equipment. I know from 10+ feet away I was still seeing scanlines on a friend's 70" RPTV.

I can't envision that being the case for HD equipment, unless you were really paranoid about the brightness variation from the lenticular screens of CRT models, which is more obvious from close up.

[Mark1Ace1]

Apparently the Optoma 1080p DLP is around the corner at a price under the Sony.

I personally can't see the Sony killing off DLP, that is one huge assumption in my books.

Mark

[JBJR]

For those not following closely, Widescreen Review's Greg Rogers has finished looking at a unit. He's pretty damn pleased with it overall, and the contrast is somewhat insane. Haven't read the review, I am going by comments of those who have (not a subscriber).

3000:1 with no iris, 5,000 or 6000 with iris engaging static mode, and something in excess of 15,000:1 with auto-iris mode. ANSI was pretty good too (although less than the top DLPs).

Sony just kicked sand in every DLP FP makers face. Let's see what they come up with. And look for things like the InFocus 777 and similar 720p 3 chips to drop in price over the next 6 months by, oh, $10,000.

Basically anyone who can afford this and has light control and a screen under 120" would eb nuts to consider anything else. Even CRT guys are perking their ears, er, eyes. (Jon?)

BB

I don't know any of the crt guys that are interested in this thing. I will be holding on to my moded Marquee 9500 for a very long time. It is moded by Mike Parker and easly does 1200p.

[Brandon B]

I don't know any of the crt guys that are interested in this thing. I will be holding on to my moded Marquee 9500 for a very long time. It is moded by Mike Parker and easly does 1200p.

I do.

BB