Last hurrah for a Runco CRT projector

[kennethma]

I have a Runco IDP980 (8" CRT) projector which has served me well since 1996. Wish I could say the same for my Faroudja LD 100 line doubler, which was great for anamorphic DVDs but now has completely died on me. Living in Brazil now, which means buying fancy new DLP projector is not an option (50-100% tax).

So I was thinking of one of the following (comments?):
a) DVDO HD+ or similar scaler to replace doubler; or
b) Fancy scaling DVD player; or
c) For time being, running component video cables from 480P output of standard DVD player to Runco (if I can find RCA-->BNC adapters), although I don't think I can simply plug them into RGB(HV) inputs of Runco.

Mostly watch DVD's, miniDV videos, and local DirecTV (no HD yet here, all 4:3) but looking forward to HD DVD's (no Laserdisks - stolen and few videotapes). Fixed screen had to be cut down to 84"x54" - good compromise.

The CRTs are capable of 1600x1200 according to specs and horiz. scanning frequency is 69 kHz (not the 100 kHz version, whatever this means). So what exactly is this projector capable of in terms of resolution?

Thanks,
Ken
new registree!

[Dean McManis]

Welcome Ken,

One trick about CRT projector resolution is that it's usually expressed in terms of "addressable resolution" which means how high of a resolution input signal that the projector can sync to. Which is your 1600X1200 number.

The Runco IDP980 was a rebadged NEC 6PG. Most of Runco's displays of that time were NECs, and the quality and reliability was pretty good as well.

A better clue to the unit's "resolvable resolution" is the listed maximum computer resolution, which I believe is 1280 X 1024p for the 6 PG.
It's good enough for both 1080i and importantly 720P. :T
In fact all you need is 64Khz to sync to 1080p (if not fully resolve it).

Your choice of where to go with a dead scaler relates mostly to how much of each media that you regularly watch. If the clear majority is DVDs, then I'd definitely look at getting a scaling DVD as they are relatively cheap.

But so far I haven't seen any DVD players with built-in scalers that also scale external video sources.

The hardest part of scaling is the line doubling, so you could even go with a regular progressive scan DVD player (480P) and then perhaps get one of those external, inexpensive, gaming scalers used for line doubling and upconverting the NTSC output of console games like the PS2 or Gamebox's S-video output. They are cheap, and actually have an OK looking picture for the price for lower resolution NTSC material like VHS tapes and DSS.

Or you can check the used market for an older external scaler, which should be relatively dirt cheap these days. :T

Good Luck,
-Dean.

[Evil Twin]

It probably comes down to what is available at a tolerable price, considering the taxes. Undoubtedly a DVDO HD or HD+ would look excellent.

Dean's guidance for resolution settings is completely on target, though I would also advise 1080i would look very good on your Runco, also. One friend with an NEC XG has been very happy using a Faroudja NRS scaler just going up to 1024X768 for DVD's, OTA NTSC, LD, etc. But he was fairly impressed when we used his NEC switcher and setup an OTA HD tuner with 1080i.

The problem with most of the scaling DVD players is that they only output on DVI or HDMI; this requires a converter box, such as the DTRONICS DVI-D to RGBHV. For flexibilty with a variety of sources, if you can afford it, the DVDO HD would be very good, and probably meet your needs for a long time to come.

[kennethma]

Thanks for the info. I was told when I bought the Runco was that its sweet spot would be approximately tripling, whatever that means (I tried quadrupler at the time and is looked worse than the doubler). The doubler was fabulous for anamorphic DVD's but inadequate for 4:3 or letterbox material, with very visible scan lines upon zooming. For these reasons, I have been anxious to see something more than doubling with this projector. Also, I will want something that can convert (or at least pass through) a future HD-DVD/Blu-Ray signal and broadcast or satellite HD signals.

The DVDO HD+ seems to go for ~$1100 on eBay, which seems like a reasonable investment. The HD is about $200 cheaper and apparently the only difference is that it passes through instead of processes certain DVI inputs (all HDCP and non-HDCP 720p and 1080i formats) - do I care?

Thanks again,
Ken

PS manual says Runco has "pixel resolution" of "1600 x 1200 dots" and "resolution" of "1000TV lines", if that tells you anything.

[Dean McManis]

A line doubler takes the two interlaced fields of a 480i/NTSC image and combines them into a progressive 480p picture. Plus with a good one it does a ton more, with video filtering and special circuitry (all in a chip now) for handling panning and motion to get the best looking picture.

The tripler de-interlaces the picture into a 480p image and then interpolates/scales a thrid set of scan lines into a 720p/768p image.

Most 7" and 8" CRTs (and even my last 9" CRT projector) do genuinely have a "sweet spot", or optimal resolution, and 720p scaling looks VERY good on those projectors. :T If the projector cannot get a tiny enough dot pitch, then higher resolution (as with a quadrupler-960p) causes scan line overlap and actually softens the image compared with 720p.

It's a big point that most scaling DVD players only output DVI, as opposed to the RGB needed for CRT front projectors. ops:

And the other advantage of using an external scaler/doubler is of course that it will scale other NTSC video sources besides DVD.

The advantage of scaling all external video souces (as opposed to just passing through 720p and 1080i) is that it puts all video output from the scaler into one format.
It's not a huge issue because most newer projectors have multiple format memories, so that you can switch on-the-fly from 480p to 720p to 1080i to keep the image format the same regardless of input.

It takes a little more work to initially set it up, but it might be worth it to you to save $200. 8)

[kennethma]

Thanks again, Dean.

Sounds like a DVDO HD+ might be a nice unit for this projector, and possibly even future projectors if I like the way it processes video.

Two questions:
- For the 8" tube Runco, would you suggest converting even 1080i to 720p?
- The DVDO only has a 15-pin D-sub connector for RGB analog output. The Runco has a 15-pin input called "Option 1" which the manual says is "for future system expansion". Do I use that input or is there a way to adapt the 15-pin connector to R/G/B/H/V BNC conncectors? The latter is what I have running from my ceiling projector now and would be easier to use than running a new wire.

Thanks.

Ken

[Dean McManis]

As long as the cable shielding is decent, there is no problem running a good quality VGA (15-pin D-sub connector) cable.

My guess is that 720P is going to look better on your Runco, but with the projector's internal format memories, you should take the time to setup both HD modes and try them both out.

Most broadcast material today is native 1080i, but because of the high resolution source of HDTV, material converted to 720p also looks awesome, and your only task is to discover your projector's sweet spot resolution and refresh rate. :T

[kennethma]

Thanks. No broadcast HD where I live yet, so I will be testing and comparing mostly 480i and 480p from DVD for now.

Found a good review of the DVDO in Feb. '05 Widescreen Review (sorry too big to attach) that actually tested it with an IDP 980 (though he doesn't say what cabling used). Sounds like I can specify 72Hz for video DVDs (from 480i only) and get "judder"-free picture (24 fps x3; a nice option for CRT projector). I assume I can do that while upconverting to 720p, which should be sweet spot for this projector, as you say. Apparently the DVDO does a nice 1080i-->720p cross-conversion as well. After 9 years, will finally see what this projector is capable of!

I found on internet a VGA (HD-15) male to BNC x5 female (1 foot) that I think I could connect up to my huge BNCx5 male/male cable - will that work or should I try to run a long extra-shielded VGA cable instead?

Ken

[Dean McManis]

That transition cable should be OK. It probably won't cost to much so you can feel comfortable trying it out to see how well it works. 8)

[draganm]

Hi Ken, a $1000. scaler is a lot of money, you might want to consider a Momitsu V-880 DVD player. This player will upsacle to 720P, which BTW is line tripling and the sweet spot for your runco. It's cheap at $280. and is very popular with CRT users who don't want to hassle with a HTPc (computer). It outputs a RGB signal through the DVI port, and simply takes a $7.00 adapter to convert the DVI-I to 15 pin mini /d-sub. I would run a straight 15 foot RGB/5-BNC breakout cable and minimize the number of connections as much as possible. the only issue you will have is scaling outside sources like broadcast, Momitsau was about to release a pass-through card for their V-880, but I don't know if it's out yet? Anyway, it's a very cheap and alternative if you watch mostly DVDs. BTW, your Runco is far from it's "last hurrah", these machines are made to run for 100,000 hours :T

[JonMarsh]

To use scaler or not depends on lot on the mix of sources. I watch very little else besides DVD (including a lot of TV on DVD the last year and a half), so I went the scaling DVD player route.

For someone watching OTA and other sources, a scaler like the DVDO is a good investment- Thomas enjoys his Faroudja NRS quite a bit, though it's not a piece I think I would purchase (well, unless I could send it back to the factory and change the default output).

None of the scaling DVD players are "perfect"; they all have some quirks, I've tried (and have) several, but have been quite happy with the Oppo DVD971- my example has been flawless in reliability, and run through my DVI-D to RGBHV, produces a very nice picture. Even with mis-edited video source material, which the Lite-on, Momitsu and Nueno didn't do very well with- only the Zenith could handle it, and it's component color space isnt correct for HD output resolutions.

~Jon

[kennethma]

Thanks for the recent replies regarding scaling DVD players. Probably a reasonable option for current DVDs, but not a short term solution for regular def broadcasts that I receive over DirecTV or OTA in Brazil (no HD yet) and would soon be replaceable by a decent HD disk player, which I would think would scale regular DVDs (no??).

As you say the Runco will serve me well for a while longer with a decent scaler, plus if the scaler does some nice video processing comparable to my old Faroudja, it could be superior to the processing found in many DVD players or projectors, I would think.

As for cost, I am now concerned about finding/buying new CRTubes for the Runco (8"). Do they cost $1K each or can they be had cheaper? I can tell that the green tube has some burn in, possibly the others as well.

Cheers,
Ken

[draganm]

I'm pretty sure the supply of new tubes for the NECs is all dried up. Luckily for you, Video Display Corporation in Florida is the only place I know to get rebuilt tubes for the NEC PJs. They have had some problems with their rebuilt tubes for other projectors, but the rebuilt NECs seem to be pretty good from what other NEC users have said. You will need to get the part number off the tube bell and give them a call or -e-mail. I think it's about $500. for a rebuilt tube and there is a $100. refundable core-charge for your old one. they come with a 1 year warranty.

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for the recent replies regarding scaling DVD players. Probably a reasonable option for current DVDs, but not a short term solution for regular def broadcasts that I receive over DirecTV or OTA in Brazil (no HD yet) and would soon be replaceable by a decent HD disk player, which I would think would scale regular DVDs (no??).

As you say the Runco will serve me well for a while longer with a decent scaler, plus if the scaler does some nice video processing comparable to my old Faroudja, it could be superior to the processing found in many DVD players or projectors, I would think.

As for cost, I am now concerned about finding/buying new CRTubes for the Runco (8"). Do they cost $1K each or can they be had cheaper? I can tell that the green tube has some burn in, possibly the others as well.

Cheers,
Ken

New tubes are long out of production for the 6PG/9PG series. VDC rebuilds are what most folks have to live with. The end of 2004 I located a new complete set of NOS NEC tubes and bought them as insurance for my low hours 9PG+. Since finding a 10PG with about 500 hours, that's become something of a moot point, perhaps. But what the hey... I've been rather lucky all in all, both in the 9PG+ I found, the tubes, and the 10PG. Lucky or persistent...

Finding replacements where you are may be even harder, but you never know unless you try. It's unlikely you'll need a red (they usually last 20K hours or more), but a green, and eventually a blue will be necessary. How many hours do you have on your Runco? Where do you have the brightness and contrast set? (especially the contrast).

~Jon

[kennethma]

Thanks for the replies regarding the tubes. I haven't increased brightness/contrast on the projector and have required only slightly higher settings on the video processors, so I am probably OK except for some burn in on the green tube (I think) which seems to have caused a purple cast over the central "4:3" area (does that make sense??)

As an update, I have purchased the DVDO HD+ and finally returned home from travels to try to set it up last night. Was less than successful, though I eventually found settings that were acceptable for anamorphic with DVD and for 4:3 with standard satellite signal. Only problem is that I could only use the 480p/60Hz setting; none of the many others supplied looked good, at least using the default settings.

Based on what I had read, I was hoping to try 720p with 72Hz setting for movies, but got nothing close to a usable image with those settings. Is there something I need to change on the projector to use anything higher thatn 480p or do I need to play with the DVDO settings?

Thanks,
Ken

[Kevin P]

...I am probably OK except for some burn in on the green tube (I think) which seems to have caused a purple cast over the central "4:3" area (does that make sense??)

That makes sense, burn on the green tube would cause a magenta (purple) cast.

What did you have the Faroudja set to in terms of output resolution and scan rate? If you can get the DVDO set the same way, or close, you should get a usable picture. Maybe you have the refresh rate set too high?

[kennethma]

The Faroudja LD100 was a simple line doubler - no output settings. The DVDO is fine at 480p, which is equivalent to what the Faroudja put out. My question was why the 720p and all the other outputs are coming out distorted. I can't find any adjustment to make on the Runco to accomodate different resolutions. The DVDO allows you to adjust "output timings", such as horizontal and vertical shift, size, front porch, sync, back porch, but this is greek to me...

[Kevin P]

In what way is it distorted at 720p? Are you not getting sync (picture all broken, jumping over the place, rolling etc.)? Or is it a steady pic that's not shaped right (aspect ratio, geometry or convergence problems)?

Many/most CRT PJs have to be set up individually for different resolutions/scan rates, meaning ground-up geometry and convergence setup, when you feed it a "new" scan rate or resolution. Once this setup is done and saved into memory, you should get the correct image in 720p or whatever resolution you choose.

Since your Faroudja only output 480p, the PJ was only set up/converged in 480p.

If the picture is jumping all over the place (no sync), then you have a different issue. This usually means the PJ doesn't support the scan rate you're giving it.

[Evil Twin]

When you're trying running at 720P, did you setup a new signal entry for that resolution, then do a static alignement and dynamic convergence? These projectors aren't like digitals that you can feed a range of inputs and they convert to their native res- for this Runco, if you've been only running 480P, you'll need to setup for 1280X720P. This will include adjusting the vertical amplitude and horizontal amplitude to get the correct aspect ratio and good raster fill, as well as the static alignment and convergence of blue and red to green for your new input setting. It will create a starting point using the original settings, but moving up to 720P I expect you'll need some substantial tweaking. You may find that 1080i is easier to get working well on the projector, due to the lower scan rate.

[kennethma]

As usual, you are both completely correct. The 1080i is coming in fine but the 720p is distorted and in need of convergence, etc. Some of the other presets jump around, as does the 72 Hz frame rate, so that will require sync adjustment.

Interestingly, the 1080i and 480p were practically indistinguishable, meaning, the 1080i offered no real improvement, and the visible scan lines looked identical (which makes sense to me but also makes me wonder why 1080i is considered HD but 480p isn't, when they essentially have the same resolution!). On the other hand, I can see that 720p will offer a dramatic improvement (when properly calibrated), with dissolution of the scan lines into a film-like appearance. I realize this is specific to the "sweet-spot" of this projector (another concept I don't fully understand) but there it is.

I am hoping I can do the calibration for 720p with the Runco's little remote control, since the huge remote died on me recently and I don't know where to get a replacement.

As an aside, the video settings for the presets on the DVDO were nearly perfect, and I found very little to tweak using the AVIA DVD. If memory serves, the image is superior to what I had with the Faroudja.

Ken

[JonMarsh]

In upconverting to 1080i, your projector can't create details that aren't already there. So, working from, say, a DVD source, or especially SAT, you'll likely not see much difference between that and 480P, UNLESS you have the mechancial focus and astig and electronic focus and astig carefully set and you're getting quite visible scan lines at 480P (which you should). If the output of the scaler is proper 1080i (some DVD players and scalers are actually outputing with minor sync timing errors which effectively makes the signal 540P), the scanlines will become invisible, detail should be about the same, but with better edge rendition.

Getting a nominal 7"/almost 8" projector to do good 1080i takes a little more work; scanning isn't hard, but spot size control and reproduction is.

Just as an aside, in my own experience there's a marked variation in what I've seen in upscaled DVD - the Oppo DVP971 through a DVI to RGBHV giving the best results. That unit has been compared favorably against a fairly top of the line Lumagne scaler, too. Fairly amazing for $200 in the US- the outboard DVI-D to RGBHV converter costs twice what the DVD player goes for.

True HD at 1080i will take you much further, of course- but while these "baby" NEC's can do it reasonable justice, it does take some real care in the projector setup to wring that performance out of them. That's why I popped for a used 10PG recently, with 9" tubes.

~Jon

[kennethma]

I do have visible scan lines at 480p and I think the original calibration was done quite well. I also use a fixed screen and fixed projector mount, which I think is better than movable. The 1080i scan lines are spaced exactly the same as the 480p scan lines, and the image if sharper is imperceptably so. My DVD player is not a fancy one so the output may be inadequate.

That said, I finally calibrated the Runco to the DVDO HD+ 720p output (to the best of my untrained ability) and it looks great. No visible scan lines. Anamorphic is stunning and letterbox/zooming is acceptable for the first time on this Runco (whereas visible scan lines used to be annoying).

I am having a serious problem, however. The image slowly drifts (i.e., moves) to the left. The only way to get it to return to center is to select another output format resolution on the DVDO and then switch back. Then slowly but surely it starts to drift to the left again. Any thoughts? Defective unit?

Ken

[JonMarsh]

My first suspicion is that the projector electronics may be getting unhappy. One way to check this would be to connect the output of your DVDO HD+ to a conventional computer CRT monitor and see if anything similar happens.

When you run the NEC's at high sweep rates, it's critical that the heatsinking on the deflection Power IC modules be good, that the caps on the deflection board are in good shape, AND that you aren't overdriving with regards to horizonatal amplitude. Try backing off a little on both horizontal and vertical amplitude on the projector and see if that affects the stability. If it does, it's definitely the projector and/or projector setup. Your actual raster (not the image within the raster) may be too close to the CRT edges at one set of corners (one way to quickly check this is take off one lens, crank down the contrast and crank up the brightness - should be no closer than 5mm to the CRT edge at any point for the raster. For higher sweep rates like 720P, there's likely to be a bigger gap between the raster edge and the image edge.

~Jon

[kennethma]

Thanks, Jon. Finally a good use for my 17" CRT bookend... Sure enough, image didn't budge on the monitor.

Unfortunately, you started speaking a foreign language to me. If I reduce amplitude, won't that make my image smaller than I want for my screen (ie, to fill to the extent possible)? Also, if I blank right up to the limit of the image, is that how I reduce the raster? Please elucidate...

Ken

[kennethma]

Jon, Kevin, Dean-

I received worrisome news from fellow consumer that this is a known problem with Runco projectors and HD+ and that further information on the subject is not forthcoming. Do you have access to info on what happens to this projector with this scaler?

Thanks,
Ken

[Kevin P]

If it's a known compatibility issue with no fix available from Runco or DVDO, then your only recourse would be to use a different scaler, such as a Lumagen. Or go the HTPC route.

Does it happen in resolutions other than 720p? Maybe switching to 1080i or something in between like 540p or 600p would solve the problem?

[ThomasW]

The Faroudja NRS units would be a good choice if you can find one used. I paid $1200 for mine last year, I've seen a couple on Videogon lately in the $900-$1200 range.

These take any input (except HD) and convert it to the native rate resolution of the projector. HD is simply a pass-through. As a result only 2 input settings are needed for the projector.

If you have more than one RGBHV source, then you'd need a switcher like the NEC ISS 6010/6020. These are typically less than $200 on ebay,

[kennethma]

These $1000 bills don't grow on trees, you know. I just bought the iScan and need to know if this will always happen of if there is something I can do so that the projector and scaler play nicely together.

So far, I can tell you that this happens with all resolutions, although arguably faster with one than another. The image moves to the left, and eventually pops over to the right before schizing out totally. Everything is fine again if I change resolution and change back.

The iScan hooked up to a computer monitor is fine, ie, no image movement. I was not successful in hooking up a computer to the projector to test another imput source, but I have never tried this before and may be doing something wrong. I will try to reconnect the old Faroudja to see if it is stable or not (which it always was for 8 years).

If something was changed or damaged or just mis-calibrated on the Runco, I could try to fix it but am not trained to do so. I manage to do some converging but that's about it. I also shifted image to get it into proper position on the screen, and perhaps this is relevent to the problem.

I would not be too comfortable opening the box to change a deflection board, etc. Since I moved the system to Rio, I am unable to send it somewhere to get it fixed or even to find the guy who set it up for me a few years ago, such as things are in Brazil...

Backing off on amplitude didn't help, but I am not sure if my combination of amplitude, shifting and blanking is correct (looks right with AVIA and internal patterns). If we assume the projector was expertly set up to begin with, is it possible that suddenly the raster position, etc. was thrown off? Are the remote control settings capable of doing this on the Runco 980 (NEC 6pg xtra)?

Someone suggested the iScan keeps changing sync slightly, but didn't I disprove this with the steady image on the computer monitor? Could there be a sync problem on the Runco side? I could change from auto sync to manual, which apparently changes to sync on green signal, whatever that means.

Sorry for all the questions/appreciate the answers.

Ken

[kennethma]

P.S. Hooked up old Faroudja. Image was unstable, then turned into wavy lines. Even internal test patterns look bad now, with nothing attached.

When I said last hurrah, I meant it in a good way...

[Dean McManis]

Sorry to hear about your problems.

While it's certainly possible that the scaler and projector have issues, I would be surprised if it was really directly responsible for your projector's problem. And if it did mess it up permanently, it was likely that the electronics would have failed anyway in short order.

Still, it's actually likely that some setting is just thrown off, as opposed to your display being permanently broken. FPTV CRT electronics control systems are complex and can be tweaked in any number of ways that will mess up the picture.
But in my experience even though it's relatively easy to screw up the picture, it's less often that the display is physically broken.

Do you have the service manual for the unit? Is there a factory reset switch, or service mode button combination available? If you were tweaking with the picture settings, it could have been reset past the fringe of an unstable mode.
Unfortunately there are many service mode settings that can totally mess up the picture (temporarily), even in the internal test pattern mode.

Hopefully this is what has happened to you.

-Dean.

[kennethma]

Thanks, Dean. As usual, you may be right. Here's the update:

I switched back to DVDO and looked fine again except for the shifting. Another "expert" seemed convinced it was a sync problem so I looked around for something to adjust. On the projectors INFO screen for each input, there is sync detect which can be AUTO or MANUAL. I switched it to manual and behold, image is staying put! The projector sometimes complains that it can't sync manual and acts funny, and I can't get it to do it at 72 Hz, but I think I'm on the right track...

Ken

[Dean McManis]

It's good to hear that you are making progress Ken, and that your projector's not actually broken.
Unfortunately, CRT FPTVs are all complex, professional devices. And one wrong step can leave you treading water in the deep end of the pool.

The good side is when you do resolve the issue, you can really feel justifiably proud.
And most likely this knowledge will help you in future tweaking and troubleshooting.

-Dean.

[draganm]

It's good to hear that you are making progress Ken, and that your projector's not actually broken.
Unfortunately, CRT FPTVs are all complex, professional devices. And one wrong step can leave you treading water in the deep end of the pool.
The good side is when you do resolve the issue, you can really feel justifiably proud.And most likely this knowledge will help you in future tweaking and troubleshooting.
-Dean.

I think NEC based CRT projectors are in a league of their own when it comes to complexity ! There is no other projector out there I'm aware of that can actually be damaged by simply turning a pot. I have owned an Electrohome Marquee for 3 years. I liked it so much I even started refurbishing Marquee projectors and helping newcomers to CRT with set-up. Every adjustment is through a remote control. Short of running contrast/brightness too high and burning a tube, it's impossible to screw it up by simply adjusting something.
Ken, there a post recently in another forum where a guy damaged his Runco/NEC projector by messing with amplitude adjustment directly related a scaler issue. If you aren't 100% familiar with the projectors electronics, don't mess around in there. A lot of the settings in an NEC require a scope and advanced knowledge to set properly. On a brighter note, flea-bay is usually full of used NEC PG parts, hammerhead tech. in California usually has lots of parts if you need them.

[kennethma]

Thanks all. Had everything running pretty much OK with the DVDO until had a few power outages recently and now the projector shuts itself off around 3 seconds after I turn it on, each time. Any thoughts?

[kennethma]

Regarding projector switching off, the error code is "FC".

Jon, you mentioned the deflection board may have been involved before, perhaps now even more so??

Ken

[JonMarsh]

I'll have to check the service manual- I don't have the codes memorized- and I'm at work again today, this has been a brutal August...

Could be a basic power supply problem, too.

[kennethma]

Once again you may be right. FC = "No +15V source" which apparently implies either power supply or deflector board, most likely. I did have a couple of power outages the day before I noticed the pj turning itself off, which is by no means the first time we have had power outages here. Also, I looked at the 2 LEDs on the deflector board and they do not remain lit after I try to turn it on, one goes on for a few seconds and then off, the other flashes momentarally. I assume the power supply is hardier than the d board...

Ken