16:9 720p ~$2k

[Dean McManis]

The recommended screen sizes are just a guideline, as people's personal preferences vary. I think that the distance calculator recommended that I sit 32' back from my 180" screen.

[Radec]

I'm another who agrees that you should consider a bigger screen. I sit about 9-10' away from a 103" screen and I wouldn't have it any other way. Your fear for a SDE is a valid one, but I"m guessing with the PJ's you are looking at, You won't have a problem.

[Nick M]

Cool!
h:
I'll have to see just how big I can go... :twisted:

Blazemaster,
That is the older Z2, not the newer Z3 compared with the Toshiba HD2+ DLP.

[Chris D]

I sit about 10 feet away from a 119" diagonal 16:9 screen.

[Brandon B]

Me too Chris.

BB

[Dean McManis]

Just a follow-up from earlier in the thread. I sold my SP5000 today.

[Nick M]

I had an unfortunate experience with DLP today...

I went to a couple stores (a big-box and a hifi shop) after work today. The local CC finally hooked up some DVD players to each TV and dimmed all the lights in the TV section so I could finally test out some of their display units. I brought AVIA and a few DVDs. You should have seen the sales guys when I started screwing around with the basic AVIA modes using the colored filters to get reasonably accurate colors that werent red saturated maximum brightness images. I looked like an uber-dork... :B

Them: "Yes sir, this is what we call a high definition TV... um... what are you doing sir?"

I am happy to note that on the newer rear-projection DLP units with the uber-speed color-wheels I can see absolutely no rainbow effect. Black levels were spectacular.

Thats where the fun ended though. After about ~10min of viewing my eyes started hurting. I switched to watching an LCD based RPTV or Plasma and the problem went away. I was also very dissapointed with the dithering. The lagging/smearing (compared to LCD based units) in some scenes had me raising an eyebrow. With some material it was borderline aggravating. Everytime it happened the picture lost its realism and ruined the experience.

Black levels and lack of screen door effect severity were superior on the DLP units I viewed (including an InFocus SP4805), but everything else seemed less than desirable to me.

I think I'm back to looking at LCD based projectors. The 4 or 5 DLP units I checked out were all at the bottom of my favorite list after auditioning today.

The best rear projection unit I saw was a 50" Hitachi Ultravision. Nice TV.

[aud19]

How long can you wait before buying Nic? If you can hang on a couple more months I'll bet the Yamaha LPX-510 LCD Projector will be clearing out for next years model. It's supposed to have near DLP black levels, and AWESOME, accurate (6500k) greyscale tracking right out of the box. I bet you could pick one up for around $3000US if you time it right.... Not to mention with DLP's falling prices they have to price it competively.

Ask George, he bought it and loves it

Here's a link to a thread I started a while back

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=8689&highlight=yamaha

[Nick M]

Its going to be a couple months before I get one... I need to save up.

$3k is a little out of my league when I'm also going to have to buy a screen and component video cables (long unfortunately), but it doesn't hurt to look right?

After my bad experience with various DLP sets yesterday I'm definetly leaning towards LCD based front projection again.

[JonMarsh]

I had an unfortunate experience with DLP today...

I went to a couple stores (a big-box and a hifi shop) after work today. The local CC finally hooked up some DVD players to each TV and dimmed all the lights in the TV section so I could finally test out some of their display units. I brought AVIA and a few DVDs. You should have seen the sales guys when I started screwing around with the basic AVIA modes using the colored filters to get reasonably accurate colors that werent red saturated maximum brightness images. I looked like an uber-dork... :B

Them: "Yes sir, this is what we call a high definition TV... um... what are you doing sir?"

I am happy to note that on the newer rear-projection DLP units with the uber-speed color-wheels I can see absolutely no rainbow effect. Black levels were spectacular.

Thats where the fun ended though. After about ~10min of viewing my eyes started hurting. I switched to watching an LCD based RPTV or Plasma and the problem went away. I was also very dissapointed with the dithering. The lagging/smearing (compared to LCD based units) in some scenes had me raising an eyebrow. With some material it was borderline aggravating. Everytime it happened the picture lost its realism and ruined the experience.

Black levels and lack of screen door effect severity were superior on the DLP units I viewed (including an InFocus SP4805), but everything else seemed less than desirable to me.

I think I'm back to looking at LCD based projectors. The 4 or 5 DLP units I checked out were all at the bottom of my favorite list after auditioning today.

The best rear projection unit I saw was a 50" Hitachi Ultravision. Nice TV.

Temporal dithering in low light level scenes is one of the things that bugs me most about DLP, still. A good torture test is the opening to Van Helsen.

Keep looking, Nicholas - you'll find something that works for you. Just don't buy until you've viewed and evaluated yourself...

Was that Hitachi Ultravision you saw the 50V500 LCD unit? It's gotten very good ratings for a digital set, though the picture quality isn't quite up to the standard that their more expensive 57S500 (CRT) sets. It's much closer than most, and one that bears evaluation if you're sold on digital RPTV.

~Jon

[Nick M]

Jon,

I'm actually going front projection, but finding places to audition them has proven difficult. Once I really have the cash in hand I'm 'gonna have to drive/bus someplace that has a wide selection and a good environment for auditioning. I figure between NYC and Boston there has to be someplace... :B

I just wanted to compare DLP vs LCD so I made do with what I could find... RPTV's (and one projector, the IF SP4805).

Based on my experiences with the various DLP units I saw, the negatives far-outweighed the great blacks and smoother image. CRT and DILA are out of my pricerange, so I guess that leaves me with LCD based PJs.

Oh, I figured I'd post this cool image. The tiles labeled "A" and "B" are actually the same color. I figured this would fit well in this thread considering the discussion about contrast ratio... :T

[Nick M]

Was that Hitachi Ultravision you saw the 50V500 LCD unit?

Yeah, it was the LCD based unit.

[Dean McManis]

That's a cool graphic Nicholas.
I haven't seen dithering issues on DLP projectors yet, and I'm fortunate that rainbows don't bother me. But I had my last DLP projector for several years, and now just bought another one.
It's great that you checked them out even though you were displeased.
Finding a display that matches your needs and personal tastes is best served by sampling as many of the different models out there that you can.

-Dean.

[Jack Gilvey]

Tough to judge things at Circuit City, the 4805 looks quite unlike the DLP RPTV's I've seen. Severe lagging or smearing might be source related, I haven't seen anything like that on the 4805, or seen mention of it. In any event, trying something at home might be revealing.

[Dean McManis]

First impressions...
I've just been able to setup my projector to display on a white wall as there is no place in this house to assemble my 180" Grayhawk screen, which will be in storage until the new home is ready.

On a white wall the SE 50HD produces a very good picture! Both with HD material and with DVDs. The projector was ISF calibrated and it shows with VERY accurate looking colors.
The image is a bit soft compared to my recent SP5000, but I actually prefer the "filmic" picture over the crisper digital look.
The blacks and overall contrast are right in line with most HD2 DLP units that I've seen so far (which is good).

So now back to watching...

-Dean.

[Adz]

Glad you are happy with it Dean, and everything seems to be working out okay.
It gave me over 700 hours of enjoyable entertainment. The projector is known for its filmlike picture. You should change the bulb with the new one, and get the gray screen going as the picture should improve nicely. It was callibrated on a 106 inch Firehawk and stressed contrast over a brighter image which is another reason to change the bulb!!

[Chris D]

Dean - :banana:

[George Bellefontaine]

You got yourself a great PJ there, Dean. I prefer the pic on my NEC HT1000 dlp over the Yamaha lcd primarily because, like you, I prefer the softer more filmic look of dlp rather than the more videoish look of lcd, though i must say the Yamaha with its extra res looks awfully good on many of my discs.

BTW, before I went with the Yamaha, I gave some thought to the 50HD as it was avialble at nearly the same price as the Yamaha lcd, but I couldn't see one demoed unfortunately. Besides, I kinda like having both technologies in my HT in case some guest(s) find dlp bothersome, though I have yet to run into that problem.

[Brandon B]

Jon,
Based on my experiences with the various DLP units I saw, the negatives far-outweighed the great blacks and smoother image. CRT and DILA are out of my pricerange, so I guess that leaves me with LCD based PJs.

That's a bummer. If you are limited to LCD, I would again nudge you to look at the Epson Home 10+. Good brightness, decent contrast (for an LCD) same price and rez as the 4805 and the most versatile placement and image sizing of any little PJ out there. And I can vouch for the build quality/durability of Epson LCD from the rather tortuous conditions we subject PJs to.

BB

[Booker]

Ok, this is my first post and i registed coz i need some advice and also i want to "defend" the lcd picture on this thread.

That comparison is really misleading, i do know the DLP has better blacks than LCD, i`m not arguind that, but those pics don`t make justice at all, is really evident those pics aren`t calibrated.

here are how the pics should be by lowering brightness a tad ,i won`t believe that projector was with brigtness at 0 .... with a tad down of brightness and , just a bit you get this pic:



wich give you a better idea of how that picture calibrated will look.

same thing with the other one, tad lower brightness is a bit better , here is a better pic of that picture properly calibrated :

http://server2.uploadit.org/files/booker-dvd.jpg

remember i`m just lowering brightness nothing else...

[Brandon B]

You don't need to defend LCD at this forum. Myself and a whole mess of others have them. At the affordable end of FP, they are pretty dominant.

And when 1920x1080 LCD becomes more common this summer, and Sony's new LCD variant (BINA) hits the shelves, there's going to be some more stirring of the pot.

BB

[George Bellefontaine]

Well said, Brandon.

[ekkoville]

Brandon, you mentioned the flexbility in the Epson has in positioning. Can it, or any PJ be placed on a side table and give great results? I am going back and forth with which room to place a PJ in and my choice room has cathedral ceilings in it. I would like to place it off the side but I have heard mixed opinions on whether the lens shift can work from the side.

[Booker]

yeah, ok, but i did it since other people could be in the middle of the fence (like i was between teh z2 and the 4805) and took a decision based on this..since the lcd black levels already have a bad reputation... sometimes comments seems worst than they are....

that´s all

[aud19]

Brandon, you mentioned the flexbility in the Epson has in positioning. Can it, or any PJ be placed on a side table and give great results? I am going back and forth with which room to place a PJ in and my choice room has cathedral ceilings in it. I would like to place it off the side but I have heard mixed opinions on whether the lens shift can work from the side.

How about a table?

[ekkoville]

Jason, yeah, I am thinking of a table top off to the side if that is possible. If not, the table in front may have to do.

[aud19]

I'd just run it from the tabletop as close to centre as possible. Keystone correction is great for making minor adjustments but otherwise you'll be losing valuable resolution

[Brandon B]

I don't think it has horizontal lens shift, so you would be using the keystone adjustment which I would personally avoid doing.

Some PJ s are adding horzontal shift as an option, but not in the $1K-2K range.

What I meant was it has a zoom lens with a range something like 1.2:1 - 1.8:1, so you can do a 8' wide screen from about 10', or from 16-17 feet. That's pretty versatile for such an inexpensive PJ.

BB

[Chris D]

Agreed, keystoning should be avoided if possible.

Ekkoville, one option is to see if the Panasonic AE700 would work for you, which instead of digital keystoning uses a PHYSICAL lens shift that you can use in the vertical and/or horizontal axis. The amount you can use is limited, especially if you shift in both axes. But I'm using mine with my projector mounted parallel and almost flush to my ceiling to throw an image over 60" down a wall.

[ekkoville]

I figured as much. Will the placement on a table in front be difficult to set up each time you use it? I would hate to take fifteen minutes to set up everytime we want to take in a movie or sporting event, especially difficult for any babysitter coming in.

[Brandon B]

I set up my projector for every use, and it is a little more involved than just setting it on a table, as I have a DVD deck with a short DVI cable to connect, SPDIF to connect, leveling and other stuff. Still only takes me about 6 minutes to ge it realigned and all.

Sounds like your situation might be a little quicker.

My HT is part of the same room as my kitchen, though, and I am just as happy my optics are not being exposed to cooking vapor residue.

BB

[aud19]

I figured as much. Will the placement on a table in front be difficult to set up each time you use it? I would hate to take fifteen minutes to set up everytime we want to take in a movie or sporting event, especially difficult for any babysitter coming in.

If you have some way of mounting or permantly connecting the projector it shouldn't be any problem. If you plan on moving the projector and or the table it will be on regularly, then yes their would be a bit more involved

[Nick M]

I've definetly settled on going LCD over DLP for my front projector. Given the +/-'s for the LCD PJ's in the $2k range, I'm also pretty much settled on getting the Sanyo PLV-Z3.

My home theater project coffer has about half the clams I need. Should be ready to purchase one by the end of July! :-y

[ekkoville]

How many projo's have you seen Nick? I am about to commence the PJ project here and have only seen the LPX-510 from Yamaha. A great piece too.

[Nick M]

Three.

I also did alot of comparisons just with RPTV units.

[ekkoville]

I agree with your post way back about how tough it is to find good PJ's on display. But the looking is fun though. Have you decided on the exact screen vendor yet?

[AndrewM]

Have you looked at the Z2, the price on it are basically at a "blow out" sale type level (seen them down in the $1k range). It's missing a couple of features the Z3 has, but it may still be worth looking at.

Andrew

[BobD207s]

Hi Ekkoville

Kevin P and I can arrange for you to see a Studio Experience 50HD in action if you are interested let me know

Bob D

[ekkoville]

That is quite a PJ from what I read. I would love to see one. Didn't someone here just sell one?

[Dean McManis]

Yeah, I just bought a SE50HD recently because of a tip on this very thread earlier. :T
It is a good example of how nice DLP can look, but they aren't cheap new. 8)

[ekkoville]

What else have you compared it with Dean? Any rainbows?

[BobD207s]

Hey Dean

I was the guy who suggested Nic look into that 50HD you ended up with - any idea when we might see you submit a review ? We think it is an awesome PJ

Bob

[ekkoville]

Hey Nick, I did some searching for the Toshiba and realized you took a look at one. Was there any indications of rainbow or other bothersome things you saw?

[Nick M]

I saw some InFocus DLPs and a bunch of rear projection DLPs, not the new Toshiba. I might have made a typo somewhere though, so hope that clarifys things.
----------
Just got some screen samples from CARADA. Hopefully I'll be ordering the new PJ at the end of the month. Switching jobs next week though, so it might get delayed an extra week depending on how payroll transitions.

I can't wait! After another few weeks of reading reviews and a couple more stops to semi-local shops, I think I'm going to go with LCD, and still plan to purchase the Sanyo PLV-Z3.

[Nick M]

Here are the Carada samples I received. Can't wait to get a Projector now! :B
BTW - Carada was fantastic in the speed with which I got these.