Questions About Runco cl 510 vs 410 & More

[AndrewG]

Have a 28' by 15' new basement room, perfect for HT. But I know nothing. After a month of research (probably 20 hours), I am leaning toward going with a proposal from a sales manager at a reputable local chain. He's proposing a cl 510. I've heard that Runco makes good projectors but is overpriced. When I compared it with a Sharpvision xv2000u, the Runco was better--more 3D looking, detail not lost in the shadows. But now I see Runco has a 410 coming out any day (http://www.runco.com/news_pressrel_pr010805c.html). Some questions:
-- Will the 410 be more bang for my buck then the 510?
-- Or would I be I overpaying by buying a Runco?
-- If after spending 20 hours reseaeching this stuff, I am still so ignorant, how do I make a decision on the best HT system?
-- What's a novice like me to do, being such an easy mark for a sharp salesman?
Would greatly appreciate guidance from the HT addicts who regularly post on this board.

[Brandon B]

I've heard that Runco makes good projectors but is overpriced.
. . .
-- Or would I be I overpaying by buying a Runco?

Runco is not overpriced, but a large part of what you are paying for buying from Runco is total top notch support and customer service. If you would prefer to maximize performance for your money, then you should be looking at other PJs.

You should tell us your price range, screen size, room specs (light control, size, etc) for more meaningful advice.

BB

[Neal_C]

I agree with Brandon.

You could spend less and get just as good of picture quality in a different projector, but you probably won't get near the customer support.

But you also are paying for their outstanding video processing and scaling, which can be just as important to picture quality. They are at or near the top of the line in this department.

Runco makes very good projectors. I got to see several in their line at CES 2004 and I was very impressed.

I think the 410 looks like a pretty good deal at $3495 retail.

You can be rest assured that if you buy a Runco, you will get good customer service from Runco and your dealer.

Like Brandon said, provide a little more info and some more extensive recommendation could be made.

[George Bellefontaine]

Another thing to remember here is that the Runco 410 is a 1024 x 576 matterhorn projector while the Sharpvision is a 1280 x 720, yet both these babies are priced the same. If Andrew is going to be viewing a lot of high def material he may want to go with the higher res of the Sharp, which by the way, is getting some good reviews. He also needs to take throw ratios in consideration. I know the Sharp is a short throw PJ, but I'm not sure about the Runco. The press release mentions variable throw distance, whatever that means. But the Runco does have a big advantage in setup ease with its wide lens shift. The Sharp, unfortunately, lacks this great feature.

[Dean McManis]

I agree that most of what you are paying for with a Runco projector is the name and the superior service that they provide. 8)

If you are looking to save some money though, you can do some research and find the projector that they are building theirs off of and get it without the name/service for less cash.

Unless they've changed their business since I last visited their factory, Runco doesn't actually manufacture their projectors themselves, but rebadge other manufacturer's models. They paint them, sometimes do some gamma/calibration tweaking, and sometimes add insulation. But nothing major usually.

They are favored by professional HT installers because they have a higher built-in profit margin, and more importantly they offer real customer service, rather than generic website support that the manfacturers have (for those that offer it). ops:

[AndrewG]

Okay, here are details about my HT and Multizone Musci System

First, let me thank you all for your replies. Boards like these are what makes the Web so great.
In regard to Dean's comment, "If you are looking to save some money though, you can do some research." I have been doing research and don't know the answer. That's what is so frustrating. If you have a recommendation for somehting better in the same price range, please let me know.
In regard to George's comment, "Another thing to remember here is that the Runco 410 is a 1024 x 576 matterhorn projector while the Sharpvision is a 1280 x 720." I don't know what matterhorn means, but I can see that the resolution on the Sharpvision is higher. I do plan to watch HDTV shows because my cable company offers about 15 HD channels, and I'll watch Knicks games and other sports on it. Also, HBO, Showtime shows. I also will be renting a lot of DVDs and watching movies. With that in mind, are you saying the Sharpvision is better. Truith is, I could not tell the difference b between the two when the salesman showed us one and then the other. But maybe I just need new contact lenses. (Who has time to go to the eye doctor?) My wife thought I was nuts. She said the Runco was clealry superior and that I must be blind.
And, finally, responding to to Neal's comment, "Provide a little more info and some more extensive recommendation could be made," let me share with you one of the two proposals I have gotten that I am seriously considering. Your comments wold be greatly appreciated.

1 Runco CL-510 DLP projector with integrated Vivix processor 5400.00
1 Runco Mount Ceiling bracket 225.00
1 Stewart Screen 100” 16x9 screen with Firehawk material 1800.00
1 Monster MHT-500 Line conditioner for projector 300.00
2 Boston VR-2 Three way, front, main speakers 775.00
1 Boston VRC Matching center channel speaker 360.00
4 Boston VRB Matching side & rear speakers 900.00
1 Rel Q150 Self powered subwoofer 990.00
1 Marantz SR-5500 Surround sound receiver 540.00
1 Marantz DV-6500 Universal player for DVD, CD, SACD & DVD audio discs 540.00
1 Universal MX-650 Universal controller with RF receiver 450.00
1 Monster HT-2100 Line conditioner for above equipment 280.00

In additoin to this, there is a multizone music system:
1 Niles Gloria Six room receiver with built in tuner 1998.00
5 Niles Solo Single Gang keypad 585.00
5 Niles Numeric Companion keypad 360.00
1 Marantz CC-4300 5 disc CD changer 225.00
1 Monster HT-2100 Line conditioner for above equipment 280.00
2 Boston Voyager Outdoor speakers 360.00
2 Boston Dsi-450 In-wall speakers for Dining room 270.00
2 Boston Dsi-465 In-ceiling speakers for Kitchen 405.00
4 Boston Dsi-450 In-wall speakers for Living room 540.00
2 Boston Dsi-480 In-wall speakers for Den 495.00


Labor and installation for all this is in the $4500 range.
What say you, experts?

[Neal_C]

My first comment is that is quite the budget you have there

Lets see, Matterhorn is just the name of a Texas Instruments DLP chip, one of several that they make.

Yes, the Sharp has the better resolution, but as I said, there are other things that make up picture quality than resolution. Video processing and scaling are very important as well, and Runco is definitely near the top in those departments. That is probably why your wife was more in favor of the Runco.

The 510 is a very good projector, I don't think you will be disappointed at all.
Some others in that range are:

Sharp XV-10000U...a little more (retail), but probably more comparable to the 510 than the 2000U you mentioned

Sanyo PLV-70...cheaper...about 4k retail

Optoma H77...about 4k retail

BenQ PE-8700...about 4k retail...uses the TI HD2+ chip, which is the best single DLP chip on the market

These are just a few, but obviously, your dealer may not carry all of these brands, so you may be limited in your choices.

As for the screen, Stewart does make very good screens, but I think you can get the same quality for cheaper by looking at screens by Carada . Their 104" 16x9 screen is under $700 shipped.

The audio side is going to be very subjective and will come down to what sounds good to your ears. I will make a couple recommendations though:

Instead of the Rel sub, consider ordering a sub from SVS . That Rel is 150W with a 10" driver. If you want a smaller sub (as in physical size), then go with the SVS PB10-ISD, it will blow away the Rel and save you about $500 in the process. If you want to spend the same amount of money, consider the SVS PB12-Plus in the beautiful wood veneers that they offer. You absolutely can't go wrong with a SVS sub...period.

I haven't ever listened to Boston speakers, so I can't comment on those. But like I said, if they sound good to you, go for them. But I would say that you should audition several brands before making a decision.

I need to hit the sack, I will let some others chime in.

Neal

[George Bellefontaine]

I have Boston Acoustics similar to the models Andrew mentioned in his list. They really put out for their size. Even the Boston Acoustics sub was good, but I wanted to add another one to the mix and had one made for me. I chose them ( Boston Acoustics) mainly because my HT is dedicated for movie watching only and the Bostons do an excellent job on movie soundtracks. They sound great with music, too, but I do my 2 channel listening elsewhere in the house on a different system.

I sent a PM to you, Andrew, expolaining what the Matterhorn chip was. It is a name given the 1024 x 576 dmd chip by Texas Instruments. They used to call the 1280 x 720 a Mustang chip, but it has been improved and as Neal pointed out with the BenQ, it is now called a HD2+, a new dark chip with higher contrast.

[AndrewG]

Okay, I'm nearing decision time

Thank you for your input. It's very helpful.
Please don't say my budget is big. It's hard enough to plunk down all this money.
Unsure about what George meant by saying that if I'll be watching a lot of Hi def, the sharpvision would be better. I'll be watching Cable TV--HBO on Sunday nights and ballgames--as well as DVDs. Please let me know whether you think the Sharp is better for that kind of viewing.
Incidentally, my salesman is telling me that the soon to be released Runco 410 will be the same as the current Rnuco CL 510, and the new 510 will have an improved chip.

Would like to know what you think of the Boston Acoustic speakers versus the B&Ws. Specifically, I am considering:
-- Boston VR-2 Three way, front, main speakers
-- Boston VRC Matching center channel speaker
-- Boston VRB Matching side & rear speakers
-- Rel Q150 Self powered subwoofer

versus

-- B&W DM603 S3 Fronts
-- B&W LCR 600 Center
-- B&W DS6 S3 Surrounds
-- B&W ASW650 Sub (12" driver)

[Neal_C]

Speakers are very subjective. I would go with whatever sounds best to your ears; that is all that matters in the end.

I would once again recommend a different sub no matter what set of speakers you go with. An SVS would dominate either of those subs you have listed. But again, purely your choice.

What George was saying is that the Sharp has a better resolution (more pixels) than the Runco, so it could be better or more preferred when watching Hi Definition material.

But again, I will say that resolution is not everything. The Runco probably has better video processing and scaling, which could very easily make up for the lesser resolution. If your wife liked the Runco better, I would go for the Runco and don't even worry about the Sharp. Runco has very good products.

I'm not sure what new chip the new Runco 510 will have, so I can't comment on that.

[lizzylu]

Sorry, I'm totally new here...we just got a projector from a friend of a friend and we have no paperwork or idea how to get it running properly. I can't seem to find info on this anywhere. PLEASE help? All I can find on it is RUNCO HT 600 Digital. If anyone knows how to find a set up manual or something, or basic info on how to get it to work, I'd really appreciate it. Thank you.

[Audiophiliac]

Contact Runco directly. They will be more than happy to assist you in getting your projector operating correctly.

An earlier post mentioned that Runco may not build their own projectors? This is false. I have visited the factory and spent a week there training, and they indeed build them themselves. Each one is built to order by hand. Its actually a much smaller operation than I would have imagined, but it works. And everyone I met there is great, including Sam himself. Not only do you pay for having Sam's name on your projector (or plasma or LCD), and great customer service, but you get the highest available video quality period. Saying that you are paying only for the name and service is like saying that buying a Porsche is just buying the name and service.....you can get a much better car for cheaper. It simply isn't true. You definitely get what you pay for when it comes to performance electronics.

That said, I believe the CL510's direct replacement was the CL610. The 410 and 420 are a different chassis.

[lizzylu]

Thank you. I will do that through the website I found?

Quick question, how do you flip the picture?

[Audiophiliac]

HT600 is old, but normally it would be in the menu under "orientation" or "installation" or something to that effect.

[draganm]

He also needs to take throw ratios in consideration. I know the Sharp is a short throw PJ, but I'm not sure about the Runco. The press release mentions variable throw distance, whatever that means. But the Runco does have a big advantage in setup ease with its wide lens shift. The Sharp, unfortunately, lacks this great feature.

it means they will sell you a long throw lense to put the PJ at the back of the theatre for an extra $1K. Why do you need lense shifting, is that so the installer can just slap the PJ anywhere on the ceiling and use the shift to compensate for poor alignement? The Runco's will always look better than a PJ from Sharp or BenQ because Runco actually calibrates their units for correct gamma tracking, they use better lenses, and might use a better internal scaler?
I would still choose a 720 native chip over a 540 and get a pro calibrator to get the Sharp to be all that it can be.