1080p CRTs

[EricL]

Hello,

I'm moving into a new house in a couple of months, and it has a room that we don't particularly have plans for yet (when I say we, that means my wife has no plans but I do ). I'd like to do a projection system in it, and be able to do "real" 1080p. The primary reason I'm thinking CRT instead of LCD/DLP is scaling. With a CRT, I don't necessarily have to upconvert everything. My big question is "Whats the cheapest really 1080p capable projector I can get". I'm planning on going with a used unit. I've been talking to some AV stores, and they SAY that the Sony G70, Electrohome 8500 and Barco 808 are 1080p capable, but their specs don't lead me to believe this. 1080p is 1920x1080 right? So I can't figure out how 1700x1200 fits a 1920x1080 picture (without scaling). So can someone help me with this? Do any of these 3 do real 1080p? Or is there a 9" tube model that I might be able to pick up reasonably priced used that would be a better choice? And what sort of price range can I reasonably expect? I don't require high brightness either, I can get the room completely dark. To pre-answer the question of "what do I need 1080p for anyway" I have a lot of captured HD satellite feed material that ranges from 720p -1080p, and I'd rather be able to display it all in native resolution rather than any scaling.

Thanks!

[Evil Twin]

With CRT, the main issues for compatibility for scanning a format is the number of lines per frame and vertical refresh rate, and how close this bumps up against the maximum horizontal scanning freqeuncy. Now, resolving the video information depends on minimizing the spot size (which is a function of projector design and setup), and the inherent video bandwith of the projector. It's complicated by the fact that CRT tubes are 4:3, and HDTV is a 16X9 format, which means you're attempting to resolve a lot of lines in a smaller area of the tube face.

For a CRT set, the conversion between 4:3 and 16:9 is accomplished by reducing the vertical amplitude, maybe tweaking the horizontal a bit. A set that can do 1280 X1024 can usually scan 1080i easily; one that is designed for 1600X1200 will work pretty well at 1080p, IF it's accurately setup- especially focus, astig, and alignment. This is true because the video bandwidth of CRT projectors will usually support vertical refresh rates higher than 60 Hz (HD 1080p is only 60Hz), and in practice production HD cameras are filtered to about 1440 lines horizontally.

In practice, there may be some scan line overlap even on an 8" tube projector (like the G70, or the NEC XG series). If you're hard core about this, you really should be looking at 9" projectors, like a used NEC 10PG, or Sony 1272, or a big Marquee...

You don't mention what kind of screen size you want, usable brightness is still a function of tube size and screen size. For example, I only run a 72" 16:9 on my NEC 9PG+, but get better than average brightness in spite of the nominal tube size (sort of half way between a 7" and 8"), even with contrast only at 55-60.

With your goals, I'd be looking for something like one of the later generation XG series, a 110 or 135. You could probably find one with clean tubes and low hours for about $2500 to $3000, or you might get even luckier.

ANY CRT is a bit of a beast to setup mechanically and do the convergenece. It's a lot easier if you're using the factory standard default distance and angle, because then you can copy the basic setup alignment to any new registered input you create, and wont' have that much to do electronically with the built in alignment and convergence menus to get things setup. PDF manuals are available online from many sources; I'd recommend checking those out to see if it looks like something you're comfortable with. If you change the throw distance and screen size from default, then you'll have to go into the mechanical setup also, as I did for my current setup. If you stay with the defaults, then it's more straightforward to do the alignment and convergence.

Some folks think NEC"s are the toughest to do, even on their "little" PG series projectors, but it's partly because they have so much control, you really can get it "right", especially on a 9 series with the point convergence board. If these are the hardest to setup, then the rest must be pretty easy. But then, I've had CRT projectors on and off since 1986. Things have come a long ways since those days.

One cautionary point; the G70, like some other Sony's, run the tubes pretty hard, and so if the projector has been run with the contrast up too high, there's the possibility of CRT burn even on a relatively low hours unit. Always ask for good pics of the CRT faces before buying. I got lucky on my last purchase and scored my 9PG+ with less than 800 hours at a reasonable price (under $2K), but those deals seem to be getting harder to find.

~Jon

[EricL]

I'm probably looking at anywhere from 96" diag up to a max of maybe 144". Of course, how good it will look brightness wise based on the choice of projector is what will determine quite where I go inbetween those two.

[Evil Twin]

Anything above 96" and my personal opinion is you'll want a 9" machine-

of course, the usual recommendation is to try to preview what you're interested in, but that's not so easy these days, unless you're in a metro area with other enthusiasts you can visit.

The screen gain won't be above 1.5 in most cases for materials that work well with CRT; with higher gain screens you tend to get too much color shift side to side.

One other question regarding this room- can you use dark neutral colors in the immediate area where you locate the screen? This will make a big difference in the working contrast ratio- light colored walls, ceiling, and floor will throw back enough light, if in the part of the room near the projector, that the ANSI contrast ratio will suffer considerably, though on/off can still be fairly good. Even if you can only manage dark surfaces in 1/4 to 1/3 of the room near the screen, this helps quite a bit.

[EricL]

If I go with mid-dark greys, and neutral browns I can get away with doing whole room, and I guess matte finish would help a little too. The carpet will also already be a fairly dark grey, so it will work in the room's look. So what is likely to be the least expensive available (used) 9" CRT? And what sort of price range can I expect it to be in?

[JonMarsh]

I've seen NEC 10PG's going for around $6K in good shape with new or rebuilt tubes from a re-seller like Curt Palme. This includes a warranty. The more commonplace 9" sets (Sony 1292, G-90, Barco, Electrohome Marquees (9000, 9500, 9600LC), will be in the range of $8-14K typically, depending on model and condition. A limited number of new G-90's and 1292's were purchased by FH Video which is re-selling them.

FH Video

[Dean McManis]

I personally do not believe that CRT projectors can actually resolve 1080p.

I owned the Sony 1292 with 9" CRTs (the forerunner of the G90), and there is a difference between the addressable resolution and the resolvable resolution.

I believe that the highest "computer" resolution of a projector is near the actual maximum resolvable resolution. The addressable resolution is the highest input resolution that the display can sync to, and many 7", 8" and 9" CRTs can easily sync to 1080p as long as they have the bandwidth capabilities.

But actually being able to clearly resolve a 1 pixel wide line at 1080p resolution is beyond the capability of any CRT projector that I've seen so far.
And that resolution goes down as the brightness and contrast setting go up (to support a larger screen). Most of the higher end 8" and 9" CRTs can handle 1280 X 1024 just fine, and with professional calibration on a smaller screen a couple can do 1600 X 1200 resolution.

But for me, I only see digital projectors truly capable of resolving 1080p. especially on a 100" or larger screen.

It's not that they don't provide a stunning picture, as most broadcast 1080i material is actually recorded at 1440 X 1080p. It's just that there is a difference between the manufacturer's resolution claims and actual resolvable resolution. The real trick is that unless you are watching from less than 1 screen width away most people's eyesight cannot tell the difference.

CRT projectors are very capable of producing an awesome looking HD picture, and front projectors were usually professional displays . But their size, weight, and complexity makes them more of a challenge to integrate into a home theater.

[EricL]

The more I read, the more confused I get So i'm probably at best looking at "real" 720p then? and that does make sense on the sources not being that high in resolution now. But since the projector will be a fairly sizable purchase, and get relatively low hours, I'd like to have it be capable of displaying that content when it is more available 4-5 years from now... Hmmm. Or do I look for a used 1280x720 DILA then? If thats the best resolution I will end up with going with a CRT, I'm a little torn because of the DILA's size, brightness, etc.

[Dean McManis]

Another nice article on resolution:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/true_hdtv.htm

As far as D-ILA projectors go, I'm a fan and own two D-ILA projectors. Both with a native resolution of 1365 X 1024p, and I utilize the full panel resolution in 16:9 mode with an external ISCO anamorphic lens.

But I also have a Infocus Screenplay SP5000 which is a 720p native LCD FPTV, and it does a great job with HDTV. Plus it was a fraction of the price of my earlier D-ILA units and has better contrast.

The advantages of the D-ILA FPTVs are that they have very good color control, higher resolution, and the tightest pixel gap of any display technology.

The advantages of the latest generation of LCD FPTVs are 720p native, and amazingly low price relative to performance.

And DLP FPTVs are probably the best compromise having great contrast and black level, native 720P, tight pixel gap (a close second to D-ILA), and decent pricing.

The picture quality of high-end CRT FPTVs is very close to the best DLP and D-ILA FPTVs. CRT has superior blacks, and sometimes sharper center picture clarity, but is harder to get clean edge-to-edge focusing than digital units, and the brightness really needs full room light control.

The element that has far more value than comparing specs is actually seeing the different technologies firsthand, and judging with your own eyes.
Then seeing how the different projectors compare when you factor in price.

[JonMarsh]

The element that has far more value than comparing specs is actually seeing the different technologies firsthand, and judging with your own eyes.
Then seeing how the different projectors compare when you factor in price.

This is so, SO true! You can bench race all day, but until you see the hardware and the results yourself, you have no idea how it fit's into your own universe of perceptions and value. Be sure to audition under the conditions you think you'll watch with - for example, if you view a 720P digital projector with a moderate size screen from the mid to back of the room, but your desired viewing position is closer, screen door effects and pixel size maybe more of an issue.

You can get some great deals on digitals these days in the 720P class, but I know for my own preferred viewing distance, they don't work as well for me, becuase of the visibility of the pixel structure. CRT is more film like, and very naturally detailed if setup carefully. But the setup is an issue, too, if you don't have someone to do it or aren't mechanically and electronically inclined. I've BUILT two CRT proejctors, so I'm obviously not representative of the general population....

My problem is that the digital I have seen that I would like to have and could live with long term all cost over $20K. Sigh.... so a good used CRT fits my needs better. But yours could be a very different ball of wax...

Just setup a friend in Denver last week with an HDTV tuner and setup his XG75 to run it in widescreen at 1080i from RGB- he had a Faroudja NRS scaler just outputting 4:3 XGA from DVD and VHS... needless to say, he's redisovering his projector all over again. Now we're pondering getting him an 1080i upscaling DVI output DVD player like I use- we already got him the HDCP compliant converter. He's hooked...


~Jon

[EricL]

This is so, SO true! You can bench race all day, but until you see the hardware and the reusults yourself, you have no idea how it fit's into your own universe of perceptions and value. Be sure to audition under the conditions you think you'll watch with - for example, if you view a 720P digital projector with a moderate size screen from the mid to back of the room, but your desired viewing position is closer, screen door effects and pixel size maybe more of an issue.

I guess my problem there is that I don't quite know where to find a wide selection of projectors set up similarly to the way I will be doing my room I wish there was. I'm in the Tampa, Florida area and although we are a moderate sized city all of the A/V shops that I've looked in are pushing LCD or DLP. I haven't seen a D-ILA projector or a CRT anywhere. And given that I am likely to buy a used projector anyhow, it seems it would be even harder to find a similar setup in place.

I think I'm hooked on the CRTs. The "filmlike" look as well as black blacks and good contrast among the darkest areas are what really tell me thats the way I want to go. Science fiction + horror films are the two genres I watch the most, so the dark shadow contrast is really important. Also the lower noise levels will be nicer. From what I gather, maybe some of the newest DLPs or D-ILAs might meet what I want, but my wallet doesn't meet what they want :P I really would like to do 1080p now, but since it isn't quite realistic yet, and there isn't really significant content yet, I'd rather do relatively inexpensive 720p. So I'm thinking that whatever I buy this year is a maybe 4 year purchase, with the hope that the digitals will catch up in speed and work out better black/dark contrasts in that time and then I will move from the CRT to a digital then.

I am a "tweaker" so the effort of setting up the CRT will be fun more than a hassle, so that part doesn't concern me. I can potentially see myself being one of those who spends as much time adjusting the projector as watching it.

[Time_wizard]

CRT's for HD

My experience with a purpose-built home theater room is that even off-air HD at 720p (Crystal Image scaler / Electrohome 8500LC CRT projector / 110" screen) is *fantastic* - when the room is darkened.

Think about how bright a TV looks when you darken a room..... If you paint the ceiling dark purple / black - like a night sky, surround the screen with black curtains - like a theater, add in enough decoration / presence to have your guests (or yourself) feel like you're in a theater, and have a good sound system... the results are *very satisfying*!

That being said, I just sold our house and my home theater room so am starting over again! Wondering about the Electrohome 9500LC compared to the D-ILA and other machines out there.. What's happenned in the last five years to make me switch to something else? Still want that 1939 theater experience!

[EricL]

My experience with a purpose-built home theater room is that even off-air HD at 720p (Crystal Image scaler / Electrohome 8500LC CRT projector / 110" screen) is *fantastic* - when the room is darkened.

Think about how bright a TV looks when you darken a room..... If you paint the ceiling dark purple / black - like a night sky, surround the screen with black curtains - like a theater, add in enough decoration / presence to have your guests (or yourself) feel like you're in a theater, and have a good sound system... the results are *very satisfying*!

That being said, I just sold our house and my home theater room so am starting over again! Wondering about the Electrohome 9500LC compared to the D-ILA and other machines out there.. What's happenned in the last five years to make me switch to something else? Still want that 1939 theater experience!

I decided to go with the NEC XG110LC still not in yet, waiting to close on the new house... but I am doing the walls almost black.

[Dean McManis]

Eric, I think that you will enjoy your NEC projector. It's an interesting tidbit to know that Runco relabeled that NEC projector and called it their DTV 991 Ultra, and it sold for $35K new! 8O

If you are a tweaker, then you will definitely enjoy having a CRT FPTV.
The learning curve is steep, but the results are rewarding. 8)

I have long since switched over to digital projectors, but I enjoyed CRT projectors for many years, and as long as you have a good warranty, and don't mind the size and noise of those professional-calls units, you will be more than pleased. :T

Time_wizard,

I'm just selling my house now as well, and one of the offers wanted to buy my HT setup in the deal. But they got outbid, so I'll have to recreate my HT in my next home.

The Electrohome 9500LC was the top-end of their projector line. Like the NEC XG110LC, the Marquee 9500LC projector was resold by Vidikron as their $50,000 flagship Vision One, and by Madrigal as their $60,000 MP9. :wink: ops:

Calibrated perfectly, it can provide a picture that it superior to most all digital projectors, but re-tubed, warranteed models are still selling for $15K-$20K.

[JonMarsh]

I decided to go with the NEC XG110LC still not in yet, waiting to close on the new house... but I am doing the walls almost black.

You're going to have a very nice looking setup. I spent a little time dialing in a friend's XG this January for an HDTV tuner I gave him (he'd only had a 4:3 setup with a Faroudja NRS scaler prior to that), and though his is just an XG75 running 1080i, the picture was quite impressive with HD material. We also conifgured it for 720P, but in most cases preferred 1080i (the Samsung tuner converts and can output RGBHV at whichever resolution is preferred).