Club Sonus Faber

[Lex]

Some interest in Sonus faber on the board lately, since I own them, giving it a chance here.

Lex

[RedStep]

OK Lex...I have always been inspired with Mr. Serblin and the character of old world craftsmanship combined with first order crossovers and the finest drivers available. This makes a loudspeaker that's as pleasing to the eyes as it is to the ears.

OK, enough with that, here is my regard:
Awestruck by the Amonti Homage and not able to afford the Cremona, Lets discuss the Grand Piano Home (GPH)...We see a product that seems to depart from all that SF is famous for, to conform to a mass produced product that most can afford. I have not had extensive listening test yet, but it is on my short list of "next speakers"...your thoughts.




RedStep
We are truly a product of the decisions we make

[Lex]

Nice summary to start things off Red. Why do you say the GP home departs from what Sf is about? Curious.

Well, as you may know, I own a pair of original Concert series Grand Pianos on Sedementary stones. Sadly, not being used at the moment, but I think they will eventually serve rear duty in my HT. Talk about underutilized, lol. But I paid close to 4K originally for them, so why would I give away a speaker I love for 2K used? I won't likely, unless I absolutely had to.

I seriously wondered about the new Home edition whether they were all the original concert series was, or whether indeed they were a cheaper immitation for mass market $. They did away with bi-wire, did away with the sedementary stone option that imo gave them a touch of class. Maybe they did improve some things sonically? After all, they had a chance to see where they might improve them. But I just don't have the answers to those questions, as I haven't spent enough time with GP Homes to know. Perhaps I should spend some time with them soon, just for grins to see how I think they compare.

Ahh though, the Amati Homage, truly a breathtaking speaker to look at. That finish just looks like it's poured on There's a pair on Agon right now for 14K used, some of the pictures really show that amazing finish. Someday maybe.

Lex

[RedStep]

While SF still uses drivers they spec out from Vifa & Scanspeak in the GPH, the enclosure is distant from SF history. GPH uses MDF in the center and closes it in with solid wood sides. Basically a 3-4 part enclosure screwed together. Obviously a cost consideration.

There are alot of choices in the $3500 range. Sound would have to be amazing, and the reviews are marginal.






RedStep
We are truly a product of the decisions we make

[Lex]

Redstep, the newer GP just didn't turn me on for some reason by looks. It looks somehow taller and just not as attractive. I also think taking away the sedementary stones was a mistake.

I really think before I spent 3500 on a pair of GPs, I'd look for some top end Sf speakers used. Extremas, Gaurnari Hommage, and others.

I've updated my web site at least with a couple of Extrema pics. I've still got more work to do on the site, but anyway, here's the front end. I need to update pages that are linked by the pictures on the left frame.

Lex

[RedStep]

Yes, I would agree...or look at another one of the many good brands with models in that price range. Mabe this is a market SF is missing out on. Surely they want to be in this market as evident with the GPH.




RedStep
We are truly a product of the decisions we make

[Levi]

Sonus Faber Grand Piano Home

Hello All,

I have the Sonus Faber Grand Piano Home with a matching Solo center channel. This is the later model without the stone. It's a 2-1/2 way model with 2x-7" woofers. You probably already knew that Sonus Faber does not have a good website. Sumiko supports and distributes GPs in the US.

I don't know how the GP as compaired to the older model but I can say that I really like it's imaging, looks, intelligibility, transparency etc. They are good all around speakers for under $4K! Although the GPs are not full-range speakers, you might go somewhere else if you like R&B for music or if you do not have a matching sub. You will definitely need a high quality amplifier, Pre-amp and source components for the GPs to sing.

Recently, Sonus Faber increased the price up $500 more. This makes me feel better since I have purchased my GPs a year ago. You can probably get a nice pair of used GPs at Audiogon for $2k. I see it there once in a while.

Levi

[Lex]

Well, anyway you look at it, they are Sf, and that's a good thing. I didn't mean to run your model of speakers down at all. In all fairness, though I've seen GPs, and compared them visually to the image of my GPs in my head, I've not really auditioned them to speak of. They could totally outclass my speakers in sound. I can't say for sure on that. Mine are rear channels now anyway, I know they can do that job well.

Ouch, 500 increase is substantial.

Lex

[dixon]

just bought Sonus Faber Concerto,Piccolo sola and Concertino

Hi, I just bought them,but missing the manual and I diden't know how much watts they have.They are bywiring,all off them and sound great.The only problem I have it's seems they need a bigger amp to drive them.I own a Rotel 1075(120*5 watts)Do you think its better to buy a Rotel 1080 for front and keep the 1075 for center and back or to buy a Rotel 1095?Any advice would be great,thanks

[Lex]

dixon, which speakers do you have?

[dixon]

I got Sonus Faber Grand Piano"Concerto"(front),Piccolo Solo(center) and "Concertino"for surrounds,they are biwiring,about 3-4 years old sayd the guys who sold me.Perfect condition,verry good sound,but I'm afraid my Rotel 1075 has not enough power to drive them.Also I have no manual and the information I found on internet is poor.I'm thing to buy a Rotel 1080 for front,maybe you have another suggestion.

[hired goon]

G'day,

I was trying out some Sonus Faber speakers on the weekend, and would like to hear the views of others on this brand.

The Cremona series is out of my price range, so I listened to the Home series (specifically, Grand Piano, Concerto, and Solo). Quite nice, with a very natural, refined sound.

I didn't have my test CDs handy, so I couldn't test the GP Home against bass-heavy music. I get the feeling that the GP Home would lack in this area, and it is more of an acoustic/jazz/classical kind of speaker. Is this right?

An indication of the kind of amplification requried to make these speakers sing would be appreciated. I've currently got a Rotel RMB-1075 5x120w amp, with an option to upgrade to a Rotel RMB-1095 5x200w amp (though I may choose multiple Rotel RB-1080 2x200w amps instead). Which combination would be best for these speakers?

I'm also interested in B&W speakers in the 800 series as well -- can anyone provide comparisons of the Sonus Faber to B&W?

[Aussie Geoff]

Hired Goon,

We will have to stop meeting like this - people will start talking...

Bottom line - my Rotel dealer also sells Sonus Faber and demos them etc.

They mate very will with Rotel from the RA-1050 upwards. Personally with the set-up you are looking at I'd be thinking 1095 or multiple 1080s for the extra clarity and control.

I see you are also interested in JM Labs Electras and B&W 800 series. We are talking 3 quite diverse sounds here. The Sonus Faber is in the sweetly musical category - things are silky smooth and musical - though (to me) they struggle a little on Rock etc. The JM Labs are in the detailed, and ruthlessly revealing category - on the right material they are awesome, and if it is not so good - well you know it... The B&Ws are sort of in between - revealing but still nice sounding. You really need to compare them very carefully to be sure...

I like the B&W compromise - but some find them not detailed or transparent enough and swear by the JMLab Electras. Others find the B&Ws too bright sounding and love the sweetness of the Sonus Fabers...

Geoff

[Lex]

Dixon, how many watts is your 1075? If it's 100 or less, it is true you could get better bass performance with a 150 watt or higher amp. Just be careful, as most concert series speakers are rated at 150 watts.

they struggle a little on Rock etc.

Geoff, in general, your opinions on the sweetness are true, even true on struggling on rock some. However, it should be noted that Extremas, Amati and Stradavarious are horses of a different breed. Even Cremona are more dynamic than the concert series. Don't get me wrong, I love the concert series for what they are designed to do, and they are more capable than one might thing with excellent subwoofer support for home theater.

Goon, please sign your posts with a name we can call you by, I don't really like calling someone hired goon. Did you price Cremona Auditor?

Lex

[hired goon]

G'day,

They mate very will with Rotel from the RA-1050 upwards. Personally with the set-up you are looking at I'd be thinking 1095 or multiple 1080s for the extra clarity and control.

I think I'll be choosing the 1095 over the 1080 at this stage. Perhaps a 1080 can come later.

The Sonus Faber is in the sweetly musical category - things are silky smooth and musical - though (to me) they struggle a little on Rock etc.

That was my initial suspicion, too. However, I'll do another demo this weekend, with my test CDs, and verify this.

I see you are also interested in JM Labs Electras and B&W 800 series

My heart says B&W, but I've got to demo many other speakers before I can be sure. However, my bank balance may restrict me to the Sonus Faber. We'll see.

Goon, please sign your posts with a name we can call you by, I don't really like calling someone hired goon.

My signature has my name -- Geoff. Seems that the signature doesn't always display, though. It's been removed.

Did you price Cremona Auditor?

The Cremona Auditor lists for AUD$5700, while the Grand Piano Home is AUD$4400. I didn't listen to the Auditor last time, though I shall certainly try in the near future. Can you comment on Auditor sound vs Grand Piano Home sound?

However, I'm after a floorstander rather than a bookshelf at the moment (and if I was settling for a bookshelf, I'd probably choose the B&W 805). Another concern is that the matching centre speaker for the Auditor, the Cremona Center, is AUD$6200. Ouch. (Just for reference, the B&W HTM1 lists for AUD$4700).

-- Geoff

[Lex]

It seems that I just can't type posts on laptops. I do some keystroke that blasts me out of it, invariablly. As I was saying, the Cremona Auditors are reputed to be much larger sounding than their somewhat meager budget would indicate. This has been the thrust of conversations about Cremona. Do a search on the web.

I do recommend auditioning them, you may just like them. Though I am sure their looks are not for everyone.

Lex

[Aussie Geoff]

Lex,

I agree, the Cremona series is in a whole different league than the Concert Series like the Grand Pianos - more up their with the Nautlius range. I really like the Cremona (the floorstander) which is about $10,000 to $11,000 in Australia... (competing with the B&W Nautilis 803 as $10,000. The Cremona Auditor is a great bookshelf though, comparable to the B&W 805 in quality and price

Here's a REVIEW of the Cremona Auditor. And a quote below:

But instead of the half-hearted speaker in a pretty case you might expect, you get a wonderfully big, three-dimensional sound, with plenty of decent dynamics and oodles of detail. You also get a speaker that has all the keen speed and fun of smaller, cheaper speakers. This is not simply a cut-down version of the Cremona floorstander for those who can't afford one - the Cremona Auditor is one of the best small speakers you can buy, up there with the likes of B&W's Signature 805 and Focal-JMLab's Micro Utopia Be.

Geoff

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

For serious Sonus Faber lovers - a "adults only" review of their Concerto Grand Piano speakers from a lady that is very enthusiastic over them...

http://www.excelsis.com/1.0/entry.php?sectionid=15&entryid=81

Enjoy (with discretion...) but be warned - this is ADULTS ONLY ops:

Geoff

[brendon]

Darn! never seen somebody say that about a B&W! :scratchhead:
Brendon

[David Meek]

My my. 8O I've never seen (or heard) anyone say that about any speaker. Jeez, I wonder what her reaction would be to a pair of Rockport Antares or Hyperions? Death by de-hydration???? :B

[tonych31]

I got the Domus Grand Piano and Domus Center. It is driven by Rotel 1068, and Arcam P90 for the Grand Piano, the Domus center is driven by the Rotel 1075.
I must admit that the Domus Center is excellent for its price. Unbelievable soundstage and depth especially for vocals.
Although the grand piano is still in break in mode, my first impression is it is very revealing and it has an enveloping sound and very musical but not for rock and pop. I need to turn up the volume of the front a bit. The bass is not out of this world but that part is handled by my REL Strata 3. I am thinking of partnering it with the musical fidelity A5 integrated amp and dump the Arcam P90. But for me, If somebody would ask what is the best part of my whole HT system right now, it is the domus center and my smooth jazz collections.

[ColoKurt]

I listened to the Amati Anniversarios over the weekend at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest. Holy crap! What a great sounding speaker! It was coupled with all Musical Fidelity electronics. It was the best sounding system I have ever heard. Of course, the retail for the whole system is ~$50k so I guesss it should sound pretty damned good.

(I posted this in the B&W forum earlier so I thought I'd repeat it here.)

[tonych31]

My friend has the Sonus Faber concertino partnered with Musical Fidelity Int Amp and Goldring Turntable. He said it is an excellent combination.

[tonych31]

Amati

I have seen the Sept Issue of Hifi News and it has the excellent review of the Amati.
It got a 20 out of 20 score.

I listened to the Amati Anniversarios over the weekend at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest. Holy crap! What a great sounding speaker! It was coupled with all Musical Fidelity electronics. It was the best sounding system I have ever heard. Of course, the retail for the whole system is ~$50k so I guesss it should sound pretty damned good.

(I posted this in the B&W forum earlier so I thought I'd repeat it here.)

[Lex]

Sounds tantilizing. I used to dream of Amati Homage. But when I have the room for it, if I ever did. For now, my Extremas will do nicely.

Doug

[tonych31]

After approximately 100 hrs of running in my Domus Grand Piano, it just sounds smooth.
Can't wait till I get the Musical Fidelity A5.
The following rumbling probably says it all.

http://www.echoloft.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi?board=hifigeneral&action=display&num=1155137137

[tonych31]

The Amati Anniversario has been voted one of the product of the year in Hifi News Mags.

[Joey_V]

Oooh... SF came out with a mini-Stradivari! The SF Elipsa!

[Joey_V]

Equipment:
Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor
Naim CDX2 w/o XPS CD Player
Naim NAC 202 Preamplifier
Naim NAP250 Amplifier

Introduction:
As most of you guys know, Sonus Faber is popular for their handmade Italian loudspeakers which are somehow always covered in genuine leather. Well, this is obviously no exception to the rule. The Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor is a svelte mid-sized bookshelf with a 6” sliced-strengthened paper woofer and a 1” ring radiator tweeter with a copper cap motor. The cabinet consists of 32 individual layers of solid and laminated/veneered maple panels and is lute shaped for reduction of standing waves internally. Despite all the statistics and specifications that I listed down, the Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor only needs one look from you, especially in person, for you to realize that this isn’t merely a speaker, but moreso an instrument of the upstream electronics.

Setup:
The speakers were separated 7 feet apart and the sweet spot was measured out to be about 9 feet away. The chair was perfect for this application as my ears were right along the horizontal plane of the Cremona Auditor’s tweeter. The room was ample in terms of treatments, and a small plant stood in between the flanking bookshelves. Several cds were played, ranging from contemporary pop music to jazz to 60’s big band music.

Sound Impressions:
The sound that came out of this particular setup was particularly impressive to say the least. I sat there in astonishment as I watched helplessly as the musical soundstage appeared before my very eyes - which were open by the way – a true testament of the ability of this speaker to suspend reality for those 3 or 4 minutes. The Sonus Faber Cremona Auditors created a panel of aural colors, from the piano to the violin to the acoustic guitar to even the shimmery snare of a drum set. It was particularly amazing to witness such small speaker setup sans a subwoofer play almost any album with the utmost ease and with the utmost realism.

It was not just a matter of clarity, nor was it a matter of detail. When I sat in that chair, I did not have time to be thinking of the usual audiophile garbage, so to speak. Who among us would go to an intimate live performance where the performer is so close to you that they need not PA speakers or amps, who among us would have the audacity to critique the music that a live band or performer create with such mundane words as detail, clarity, timbre, transient dynamics, and infrasonic extension? Who among us would critique the amount of blackness between notes, the sluggishness of the bass, the size of the instruments? None of us would.

Conclusion:
However, this is a speaker review and we need the prerequisite descriptions to better convey our thoughts, so here it is. The coherence was great as I did not notice overtly audible discontinuance within the frequency spectrum. The realism was superb, surprisingly as images had presence, depth, and weight (which is my biggest requirement in a speaker). The dynamics were apparent in spades, quick to stop and quick to start. The resolution was on another level from most any bookshelf I’ve heard notwithstanding the JM Labs Micro Utopias with its beryllium tweeter. And lastly, musicality was definitely better than most anything I’ve heard.

The Auditors, to me in that moment in time, played music. Glorious music. It was simply unreal.

If I were to nitpick on them, I wouldn’t call them the last word in detail, nor are they the last word in dynamics. Nor are they the last word in transparency, nor are they the last word in overt realism. But, if someone told me that these were the only speakers I could have in possession, I would gladly take it. The Auditors passed every little test I run speakers through, they did so much right and almost nothing wrong. A true reference speaker, in most any regard. I will not even hesitate to state that they reminded me somewhat of electrostats; clean, quick, and transparent but add to that "soul". "Soul", something I find less and less inherent in many 'stats.

If that isn’t a recommendation for this particular marvel of a bookshelf, I don’t know what is.

Rating:
9/10 at their used price.

Thanks for reading,
Joey V

Pictures:

[Lex]

Very nice review Joey, and I'd say spot on. The Cremona Auditors have a fantastic reputation from what I have heard. Frankly, many people prefer them to the full size Cremona, saying they image better. I lost my local dealer here now, as they went out due to owner health reasons, so I can no longer just go in and have a peak at things Sf. I miss that...

But I continue to be marveled by the performance of my Extrema, and see no reason to ever change them into the future.

Hmm, SF Elipsa, should be interesting to see... Well, at least pictures of anyway.

Doug

[Joey_V]

Very nice review Joey, and I'd say spot on.

Doug

Thanks, Doug! I try! :T

[DrJRapp]

Thanks, Doug! I try! :T

Don't try too hard. Remember Joeyitis is contageous! LOL

[gd]

Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor... marvel of a bookshelf

Thanks for the elaborate review, Joey.

The Auditors are definitely on my radar after I helped a friend set up his HT that had SF Domus speakers across the front – the little Concertinos blew me away.

Quick question: how big is your room wherein the Auditors do their work?

Thanx.

[Joey_V]

Thanks for the elaborate review, Joey.

The Auditors are definitely on my radar after I helped a friend set up his HT that had SF Domus speakers across the front – the little Concertinos blew me away.

Quick question: how big is your room wherein the Auditors do their work?

Thanx.

12x13

Not a bad size.... decently large but the Auditors are more than man enough to wrestle the room down.

Other speakers I have at my disposal are the Martin Logan Summits and the AV123's Strata Mini.

[gd]

Thanx, Joey.

Not to stray from SF... but how do those Strata Mini's stand up to the competition in your room?

[Joey_V]

Thanx, Joey.

Not to stray from SF... but how do those Strata Mini's stand up to the competition in your room?

I'd pick the Auditors anyday of the week in this case....

[doogie]

I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on a pair of Domus Grand Piano's and wanted to get your take on if a Denon AVR-3808 (summer release) will have enough horsepower to get decent sound? Would I need a separate amp to pair with the Denon to run them? Just looking for some opinions on brands and configurations that would work knowing I want the latest Dolby and DTS HD formats that are coming with the latest receivers.

Thanks in advance!

[alebonau]

I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on a pair of Domus Grand Piano's and wanted to get your take on if a Denon AVR-3808 (summer release) will have enough horsepower to get decent sound? Would I need a separate amp to pair with the Denon to run them? Just looking for some opinions on brands and configurations that would work knowing I want the latest Dolby and DTS HD formats that are coming with the latest receivers.

Thanks in advance!

oh no please that woudl be scareilige !

yes the denon might have enough power, but you could do so much so much better with a quality 2ch amp if its decent sound your chasing. and theres plenty of lovely 2ch amps to pick from be they integrated or power amps. in the integrateds the likes of the krell kav400 might be worth checking out. has a ht input as well making integration in to a ht setup pretty easy.

[doogie]

I hear ya...I want to do my SF's justice. Would hooking a NAD C272 up to a Denon to drive just the 2 GP's be a good solution?

Thanks!

[alebonau]

I hear ya...I want to do my SF's justice. Would hooking a NAD C272 up to a Denon to drive just the 2 GP's be a good solution?

Thanks!

hi doogie, although I love the look and stylign of SF speakers I have only ever got poor results from them with budget brand gear.

I've asked Calmac to post he has had a lot mroe experience with SF speakers and could probably give you some pointers suggestions.

[calmac]

You Rang?
Hi doogie ,congratulations on the great speakers.Al's correct about the SF's they do need equipment of high quality to really sing and to be honest most ht receivers and even the vast majority of pre /pro's are just not going to do them justice.
The vast majority of budget brand gear will make them sound overly warm and bland and I think Al's suggestion of a quality integrated amp like the Krell with the ht bypass is a great starting point.The integrated can then be used for all your 2ch listening ( with all 2 ch sources connected directly to the Krell) and you can still purchase a Denon reciever for ht duties.The poweramps in the krell would then still be used to drive the main speakers for ht work but when you want to do some serious 2 ch listening you just switch off the ht bypass ,which removes the Denon from circuit and use the Krell as both a pre and power amp.You see pre amps in most ht reecievers are pretty poor by comparison to quality stereo equipment and it is here that you loose a lot of the detail and emotion in the music.
Musical Fidelity also make some very high quality integrateds with ht bypass funtionality and so would be worth auditioning.
If your budget is more flexible then a quality stereo preamp with ht bypass and one of the new Rotel 1092 poweramps ( or other quality stereo power amp) would also be worth considering, again the Denon ht reciever could be added to this mix for a very potent stereo and ht setup.
One last thing great amps and speakers are all very well but you need to have source components of commensurate quality so make sure you have a great CD player for 2ch work if that is how you intend to replay your music.
If you require any further help please feel free to ask.
Gordon

[doogie]

You Rang?
Hi doogie ,congratulations on the great speakers.Al's correct about the SF's they do need equipment of high quality to really sing and to be honest most ht receivers and even the vast majority of pre /pro's are just not going to do them justice.
The vast majority of budget brand gear will make them sound overly warm and bland and I think Al's suggestion of a quality integrated amp like the Krell with the ht bypass is a great starting point.The integrated can then be used for all your 2ch listening ( with all 2 ch sources connected directly to the Krell) and you can still purchase a Denon reciever for ht duties.The poweramps in the krell would then still be used to drive the main speakers for ht work but when you want to do some serious 2 ch listening you just switch off the ht bypass ,which removes the Denon from circuit and use the Krell as both a pre and power amp.You see pre amps in most ht reecievers are pretty poor by comparison to quality stereo equipment and it is here that you loose a lot of the detail and emotion in the music.
Musical Fidelity also make some very high quality integrateds with ht bypass funtionality and so would be worth auditioning.
If your budget is more flexible then a quality stereo preamp with ht bypass and one of the new Rotel 1092 poweramps ( or other quality stereo power amp) would also be worth considering, again the Denon ht reciever could be added to this mix for a very potent stereo and ht setup.
One last thing great amps and speakers are all very well but you need to have source components of commensurate quality so make sure you have a great CD player for 2ch work if that is how you intend to replay your music.
If you require any further help please feel free to ask.
Gordon

Thanks calmac for the detailed response...this is big help to a newbie in the separates world. My budget is smaller than the Krell's and Rotel 1092 right now as I just blew almost $5K on the Grand Piano's. I just purchased the NAD C272 to drive the GP's but I like your idea of maybe a good NAD stereo preamp down the road to bypass the Denon completely. I'm using a Denon 3930CI for my DVD and CD player so hopefully it's high enough quality for the rest of my components. This is good stuff guys...thanks again for your help.

D.

[calmac]

Hi D,Great to hear you got an amp you like the sound of matched to the SF's.
I am going to be brutally honest here , when it comes time to upgrade I would try to stretch a wee bit higher than anything from Nad.Nad ,like Rotel make some great value for money electronics but your new speakers are just so capable that you will not hear them at their best with even quality midrange electronics like Nad.Obviously we all have budgetery constraints to deal with so I say this just to give you some idea of what the SF's are really capable of rather than dumping on any particular amp brand.
With regard to the 3930 as a source: it is a tremendous DVD player and an above average multichannel audio player but as a cd player it is easily bettered by the likes of Rotel RCD1072 anf the like.The 3930 doesn't sound bad as a cd player it just isn't particularly revealing oe musically rewarding compared to dedicated CD players at half the price.Again not trying to 'heap scorn" on your purchases just trying to put things in a wider perspective.If you are interested in pursuing any of this try to find a dealer that will let you borrow a dedicated cd player to try at home to get first hand experience of what I am talking about.
Anyway have fun and enjoy listening to your new system ,beauty , is after all , in the ear of the beholder.
Gordon

[doogie]

Is it the extra functionality and circuitry built into DVD players that don't make them as musically sound as a dedicated CD player? The 3930 has a bypass feature that disables all video circuitry when playng CD's. It's hard to imagine that 25 year old CD technology isn't maxed out in all current players.

[alebonau]

Is it the extra functionality and circuitry built into DVD players that don't make them as musically sound as a dedicated CD player? The 3930 has a bypass feature that disables all video circuitry when playng CD's. It's hard to imagine that 25 year old CD technology isn't maxed out in all current players.

doogie, calmac is right, the denon is a jack of all trades a universal player, it jsut isnt as good as dedicated players. you need ot spend quite a bit on a universal player before you start getting close to dedcated CD players. I've heard a back to back comparison where a $600 CA plyer easily beat the denon 3910.

depends what you want out of your player. another option is to split the cost and spend on a cheaper DVD player and a CD player totalling to the same budget..

mostly with dvd players its just the lack of a quality analog output stage, the transport itself used, power supplies etc.

your best bet is on the system considering to do some compariosons.

my thoughts are that the entire signal path is important scrimp along the way and it will limit the end result. its all about getting the best balance to get the best outcome.