Club On-Line Only Vendors: SVS, Hsu, Ascend, ACI, Axiom, Rocket, etc.

[Danbry39]

How about a club dealing with various internet-only hardware vendors. Companies such as SVS, Hsu, Ascend, ACI, Axiom, Rocket and the like. People who are interested in this type of purchase could share their insights and experiences with the different product lines.




Keith

[Chris D]

I'm all for this. For some reason, I've found that people are actually a little less familiar with the online products, even though a lot of people do a lot of research and purchase discussion online nowadays. Perhaps it's because when people walk into a store and talk to a sales rep, all they hear about are mainstream in-store companies.




CHRIS
Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"

[Danbry39]

Exactly how I feel Chris. And a few of the online only companies represent some of the finest bargains out there.




Keith

[curtis]

If you visit AVSForum, you know I think highly of my Ascends and Hsu sub.

The internet-direct model is hard for people to grasp. They just can't walk into a showroom and hear/see/touch the equipment. It takes more work to audition the equipment. Those that do put in the work, are usually rewarded with great value and sound.




curtis

[Danbry39]

Great to see you here Curtis. ;b>'> If you think anyone over at AVS might be interested in being a participant here, let them know. It would be really cool. Ascends were one of the brands I was most interested in. When I did my research, it was pretty amazing how many different brands there were to suit different tastes. I wanted to try a million of them. By the way, I have a Hsu VTF-2 myself.




Keith

[george king]

I think this is a great idea. We may want to cruise over to audiocircle and harmonic discord (if it still exists), and maybe audio asylum, to let people know about this site.

Keep up the good work.

[Danbry39]

Thanks again George,

Yeah, it would be super cool to see a club like this take off. I love hearing about other people's gear. I think the real key would be if we could sustain the activity over the long haul, but you never know. There are an awful lot of people who are fans of these internet-only brands now.




Keith

[curtis]

We have to generate good discussion and get traffic here on a regular basis.

The guy in this threadhttp://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=282462 does not want to do the internet thing...but I do not think he knows what he is missing.




curtis

[Danbry39]

Thanks for the link Curtis.

Frustrating isn't it. :roll:

Again, not putting down non-internet purchases. We've all made those and, of course, great products are sold through B&M shops, but you'd think that so many positive posts by so many knowledgeable folk would eat through some of the fears regarding buying via this avenue.

To me, the companies that sell only through the internet provide me with the opportunity to get ahold of speakers that would be out of my reach cost wise otherwise. Again, I know there are bargains to be had each way, but, logically, one would have to assume that cutting out the distributor and dealer from the equation would equal savings for the consumer.

I guess that I'm also tired of the attitude that characterize some shops. I sometimes feel uncomfortable browsing certain stores because of it. Maybe it's just the shops in my area, but the people I've spoken or corresponded with from the online companies has been pretty obliging and friendly.

You know what would be cool? If a bunch of the internet only companies got together and opened a few demo rooms around the country where someone could go in and actually give a listen to their products. This wouldn't have to raise the price of the product significantly as increased volume of sales would make up a big part of the cost.




Keith

[Lex]

Sorry guys, subwoofer makers are out as online vendors in an online vendor forum. I have to protect our advertisers.

That may not be what you wanted to hear, but that's how it has to be since we have 2 advertisers that sell subs and sub components.

Lex

[Danbry39]

Doug,

I don't have any problem with that whatsoever. I'd kind of like to narrow the focus here anyway.

A question did come up though. Would this include companies that sell speakers, but also have subs in their line that they sell?




Keith

[Danbry39]

Hey George,

Did you read what happened to the owner of GR Research this week?

He posted that he was stopped by one of the infamous white van speaker scam deals, who proceeded to try and sell him speakers. He patiently listened, trying to keep from laughing, while they ranted about how great their speakers are and how crappy all other speakers are. He finally revealed that he owned a speaker company and invited the guy to bring the speakers down to his lab for testing. They never took him up on his offer.

Apparently, he's actually tested their speakers before and he linked his site with the test results. Had me cracking up and thinking of you.




Keith

[Chris D]

Danbry- Anything you can link to on that? I'd be interested to read more. Sounds funny.




CHRIS
Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"

[Danbry39]

Here you go Chris.




Keith

[curtis]

I thought I would post a review I did four months ago on speakers from Ascend, Aperion, Axiom, and Rocket.

..............................

First, I enjoyed meeting everyone there. Mad Dog is a great host. The dimsum was good. And ofcourse, good music. Good people, good food, good music, whatelse could you ask for?

The setup that Mad Dog has at his home is extremely nice….his amps made each speaker sound better than my H/K AVR525 did in my home. Mad Dog was always in the room, so I could not walk out with his amps.

Many of you know that I own Ascends. I wanted to be as unbiased as possible when listening to all of these speakers. Since getting the Aperions and Axioms, I did not listen to the Ascends at all. For two days, all I listened to were Aperions and Axioms. I spent about 5 total hours listening to the Aperions, and about 4 hours with the Axioms…..the Aperions had about 15 hours total of break-in time, and the Axioms about 12 hours.

I will not go into detail about the Ref 1’s and the VMPS 626R’s, I will leave that up to the guys that have more experience those types of speakers…and money. These speakers cost 4 to 5 times more than the budget speakers we had there. While I know for a fact there are other speakers that cost just as much and can be compared evenly with the budget speakers, these two speakers definitely outclassed the other four pairs. I was very impressed. Are they worth more that much more money than the budget speakers? That all depends are your ears, what is important to you, and your pocketbook. Remember, my whole 5.1 speaker setup cost less than what a pair of Ref 1’s and VMPS 626R’s cost. If I had a dedicated room for two channel music, and the funds, these speakers would be on my list to consider.

All four of these budget speakers would benefit from the use of a subwoofer, but the purpose of this session, it was best to let them stand on their own merit. They all seemed to be built well. If you gave me a set of any of these speakers, I would not throw them out.

Aperion Audio 522D – I expected a lot from this speaker after reading the Cnet.com review, unfortunately, I did not hear what they heard. This speaker was the smallest of the bunch, and it sounded like it. It sounded “thin” on all counts. Mad Dog’s setup helped these speakers more than the others, which may have been the because these are less efficient that the others. In my home, it did sound better when turned up, but still compressed. It is not a bad speaker, I just think the others offer more. The the medium cherry finish looked good.

Axiom Audio M22Ti – This speaker sounds pretty good to me and I think it would appeal to a lot of people. Detailed with good clean midrange and highs. It does sound bright to me, and a bit metallic, and those characteristics showed themselves a lot with the Norah Jones CD we were using, but when playing classical music, they seemed to sound much better. Good imaging and soundstage. In my home, when turned up, the metallic characteristics seem much more prominent. I didn’t like the finish that was sent to us, but there are other finishes on their website that look nice. More efficient than the Aperions. If you like the bright sound, you should definitely try to give these speakers a listen before you buy.

Rocket RS150 – I wanted to hear these the most, and I am most grateful for Mark sending them to Mad Dog for this session. These are “laid” back, no part of the sound jumps at you. I felt like I wanted more from the speaker, it was almost as if something was covering it or holding it back. Imaging and soundstage seemed to be there, but I was distracted by whatever I felt it was lacking. One thing that Mad Dog demonstrated with this type of sound was it could be turned up loud, and it would not grate on your nerves. They definitely look good. Simply put, the speaker just didn’t satisfy my tastes.

Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 – These are my speakers and I have had them for about two months. Before we got started in all the listening, the one thing that I feared was hearing one of the others “budget” speakers and wishing I had it as opposed to the Ascends. I did my best to make sure that I was honest with myself in forming an opinion about these speakers. After hearing the other three ”budget” speakers, and the higher end stuff , I am even more satisfied with my purchase. Clean, open, detailed, good soundstage and imaging. They are brighter than the Rockets, but not as bright as the Axioms. Other than not having the bass, for the money, I think they compared well with the Ref 1’s. Although the efficiency specs are lower than the Axioms, in our listening, they seemed more efficient. Certainly the black finish is not as refined as the others. The Aperions and Axioms may be able to match certain decors better, but the Ascends may be the most flexible. At the risk of sounding biased, if you are in the market for speakers at twice the cost or more, you need to listen to these.

We didn’t spend as much time listening to the center channels. From what we heard, they all sounded pretty comparable. The CMT-340 had a little more bass than the RSC-100, and the RSC-200 had more bass than the CMT-340. The CMT-340 seemed to have more detail to me. Safe to say if you get Rockets, get a Rocket center….if you get Ascends, get the Ascend center.

It is clear that these speakers all have their own characteristics. It is also clear that people have different preferences. If you can not go out and listen to these speakers before you buy, read as much as you can, and know what sound you like.

If you have any specific questions….feel free to ask!

curtis




curtis

[Danbry39]

Curtis,

You da man!!!

Coincidentally, I just found the thread you originally posted on last night. Read the whole thing, yes all five or so pages. Well, I have to keep myself busy while breaking in my ACI's, don't I?

Anyway, I left a post for you there this morning.

I have to say that was one of the best threads I've read on any board. You guys really did a service for all those who might be thinking of taking the next step in speakers.

I'll be posting my review of the Sapphires and Essence tomorrow night or Sunday morning, after I get in some more break in time.




Keith

[curtis]

Yeah Keith.....your reply made me think about posting it here.

in fact, I replied to you in the thread too.

Would love to get the Sapphires and my Ascends in one room.




curtis

[Danbry39]

That would be super cool. And, you know what, I wouldn't even care which speaker outdid the other. It would only turn me on to another great company that's out there and give me first hand experience with their products. At this point, I'm ecstatic about my new ACI's. Received them yesterday at about 3:00 and already have 16 hours on them.

By the way, I grew up in a beach area of L.A. myself and spent many good days down at Manhattan Beach, although I haven't been there in years.




Keith

[curtis]

Yeah...I wouldn't be looking for a "winner", just another chance to hear a another good speaker.

Where did you grow up....what high school?




curtis

[Danbry39]

Sorry, double post.




Keith

[Danbry39]

Pacific Palisades, The Palisades High Dolphins.




Keith

[Lex]

Keith, it's a difficult decision for me to bring on speakers/subs, etc... clubs that do compete with advertisers. I am not ruling it completely out at this point at least. Just more thought has to go into this by me.

We don't have many advertisers, so I definitely will protect what we have to the extent possible. That doesn't mean censorship of posts to eliminate all talk of competitive goods. But it does mean what we do have control over, such as the format layout will tend to the conservative side to protect advertisers. That's about all I can say at this stage, except I am thinking about it all.

Lex

[curtis]

Pacific Palisades, The Palisades High Dolphins.

ahhh...I was at the other end of the basin.

Rolling Hills High School.....the Titans. Which no longer exists...got renamed to Peninsula High School....Panthers.




curtis

[Danbry39]

Don't worry about it Doug. I do understand completely. Logistically, I've been thinking there would be obstacles to overcome too.

But, I've had a hoot on this thread anyway. Anyway, I have to go back to work in a few weeks and won't be able to spend all my waking hours at HTGuide, although I'll be here as often as possible. Can't wait to post my first speaker review at HTGuide late tomorrow, Sunday at the latest.

I'm all smiles cause I really like the chaps that have been posting here. If this club doesn't make it officially, we'll all be able to interact and post at other places within HTGuide.


Curtis,

Dude, you're bringing back so many memories of my younger years. My first girlfriend shared time between Rolling Hills and the Palisades (Her name was Charlotte and she sang and danced as a young teen on Lawrence Welk if you can believe it.)

My first big time love lived in a small community right near Manhattan Beach, Playa del Rey. You know where the planes take off from the runway at LAX. There used to be a community there until the city began wondering about what would happen if a plane crashed on take off and, basically, the city condemned the whole community.

A side note: Did Westchester High change its name too?




Keith

[curtis]

Curtis,

Dude, you're bringing back so many memories of my younger years. My first girlfriend shared time between Rolling Hills and the Palisades (Her name was Charlotte and she sang and danced as a young teen on Lawrence Welk if you can believe it.)

My first big time love lived in a small community right near Manhattan Beach, Playa del Rey. You know where the planes take off from the runway at LAX. There used to be a community there until the city began wondering about what would happen if a plane crashed on take off and, basically, the city condemned the whole community.

A side note: Did Westchester High change its name too?

Dan....when did you graduate?

I think Westchester High still exists.

Yes....I know exactly the community you are thinking of. It was right above the beach, north of Dockweiller. Absolutely nothing there now but concrete with weeds.

curtis




curtis

[Danbry39]

I'm old timer. Graduated in '69. By the way, even though my handle sounds like it, my name is Keith. Danbry is a combined form of Dana Bryanne, my oldest daughter. Don't feel bad though, a lot of people make that same mistake. Real name is Keith.




Keith

[curtis]

I'm old timer. Graduated in '69. By the way, even though my handle sounds like it, my name is Keith. Danbry is a combined form of Dana Bryanne, my oldest daughter. Don't feel bad though, a lot of people make that same mistake. Real name is Keith.

Keith....I knew that!




curtis

[Lex]

Well, it might help if you signed your damn posts Keith, lol. :LOL:

I swear, I bring these guys in, then I have to mold them and fold them.

Lex

[Danbry39]

I'm a bad, bad boy and deserve to be humiliated.




Keith

[Danbry39]

Over the years, I’ve owned countless speakers. When the bug bit again recently, I went auditioning. Quite liked some of the speakers I heard- Monitors, B &W, Energy Veritas- and Monitors. Unfortunately, I didn’t find that “just right” speaker that really reached out and grabbed me.

You just don’t know how many hours I spent on the internet trying to get ideas for speakers that would float my boat, yet not sink my pocketbook, The more I searched, I became intrigued by what I was hearing regarding many of the internet only manufacturers. The sensory language being ladled on quite a few got me kind of excited about trying to get a shot at listening to them. Finally, I decided to give Audio Concepts, Inc (ACI) a shot. The company has been around 25 years and has a 30 day in-home trial period, so all I had to lose was shipping costs if I decided they weren’t the ones that launched my audio system to the euphonic sonic journey for which I yearned. What I stood to gain was audio heaven for a price I could afford.

I ordered a pair of their Sapphires and their Essence center channel.

They’re so solidly built that the manual for the Essence center channel states, “The Essence cabinet has exceptional strength. You may set most direct view television screens directly on top of the Essence.” What??? Now, that’s tough. Well, the center channel does weigh a hefty 53 pounds. And, they’re so handsome that I fear my wife may run off with one or begin having kinky thoughts.

The first hour or so, I did notice some glare and a little roughness around the edges. Horns could sound a bit harsh, even on a recording that I knew was of good quality. Otherwise, they sounded surprisingly good right out of the box. After a couple of hours, their sound smoothed to the point where they sounded pretty pleasing to the ears on any type of music I threw at them, from punk to classical guitar. I’ve put around 32 hours into the Sapphires and 11 or so into the Essence. Both have great detail and their tonal characteristics are pretty right on. And all aspects of their sound keep improving as I continue to log time on them. Break in is not complete.


Coming from Klipsch reference speakers (which I still enjoy), I noticed immediately that these were very neutral speakers that didn’t need to reach out and grab you to elicit your involvement. You just sat and listened, sometimes for hours at a time, without any fatigue or loss of interest in the music being played.

What surprised me was the authority with which the bass played, given they’re bookshelf speakers. I had turned off my sub and surround channels and set my speakers to large for break in purposes. The bass was always very controlled and mannered. It played both stand up and electric bass without breaking a sweat. The bass drums in Fanfare for the Common Man didn’t carry as much impact as would be the case were a sub being used, but was no slouch either. I could easily life with these speakers without a sub for music, although a sub is a must, imo, if you want that low frequency punch in HT applications.

The sound stage was deep, with the speakers doing an admirable job of disappearing. Most importantly for me, there was silence between the staging of the instruments, no excessive bleeding of sound into the space between where the instruments and vocals were positioned. In other words, the sound wasn’t congested, as has been the case with many other speakers I’ve heard.

I’m trying to keep rein on my enthusiasm here. Many times, the ACI’s have floored me with vibrant, musicality. Listening to CD’s like Eva Cassady’s Live at Blues Alley, Getz/Gilberto, and Quartetto Gelato’s Aria Fresca, were all sonic treats, as were many others.

There is a bit of downside: These speakers will not mask poorly recorded discs, nor are they efficient (86 and 87 decibels sensitivity) and despite my surprise with the strength of the bass, they are still speakers that need a sub to reach down deep.

Some final observations:
-These speakers sound noticeably better with the grills off.
-The Essence is wonderful, even more musically involving, and tonally true
than the Sapphires, at least to my ears in brief “up-close” listening.
-Haven’t done the HT thing with these speakers yet, so can’t comment.

While I have no doubt that many own speakers better than these, to my ears, these are just the darlings I’ve been searching for --- like George found his with GR Research and Curtis found his Ascends. They’ve made me an advocate for internet-only companies, so much so that this has become my option of choice for future speaker purchases.

Note: I’ve heard others write that the Sapphires continue to smooth out into 100 plus hours of this process. Can’t wait.




Keith

[curtis]

Keith,

Very nice! Would love to get a chance to listen to them.

What was the cost for Sapphires and Essence? What are you driving them with.




curtis

[Danbry39]

Thanks Curtis,

I use a Parasound 1205A amp, in conjunction with my Rotel 1066 pre/pro. At first, I worried that the Parasound wouldn't have the muscle to drive them effectively (tested at 156 watts/channel with all five channels being driven simultaneously), but, so far, there's no problem. I've cranked it up quite a bit on some music and just finished my first DVD, Resident Evil, which I played at Avia's reference level (85 decibel floor) and there was no compression or sweat whatsoever. I'll probably be a bit more careful with volume than I've been with my Klipsch though.

The Sapphires usually run $1299, but because I bought a pair that had been demo'd (they told me less than 20 hours), they gave it to me for $1199 and through in free shipping and stands. The Essence, I believe, is $899 with the Oak trim. Again, they ended up throwing in the shipping for free. Not exactly cheap, but, really, for the speakers I got, a pretty great deal.




Keith

[Chris D]

Keith- I found your comments really interesting, as I also have a Klipsch set right now, the Legend series. Very solid performers. Would you say the Klipsch's are "brighter", due to the horns?




CHRIS
Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"

[Danbry39]

I've heard horns don't necessarily have to sound bright, Chris, but I really am not sure. My reference speakers were on the bright side of neutral though, at least to me, but I happen to like bright sounding speakers and horns for a number of reasons: (1) very detailed, crisp sound (2) dynamic (3) efficient, etc. I hope I'm using the word "bright" correctly. Well, if not, what I mean is having very crystal clear, detailed highs.

Although I have my new speakers, I'll always keep my Klipsch. It will be two very different sounding systems in two rooms, which I like.




Keith

[curtis]

I think you can have a speaker with crisp, detail highs and not be bright. To me, bright means the speaker emphasizes the highs...not as balanced.

Keith, nice equipment.....I am leaning towards that type of a set up. I currently use a HK 525. Looking for a used multichannel poweramp now and have the 525 act as a pre/pro....and then move to a "real" pre/pro.

curtis




curtis

[Danbry39]

Think you're right Curtis about the term "bright". I know some describe it as harsh and fatiguing, but, using that definition, I personally don't think it would apply to Klipsch, although, because they're revealing, they need to be matched up with good electronics. That done, they can sound pretty spectacular.

Curtis, I'm pretty jazzed about your decision to go separates. Although your receiver is a very, very good one, you will notice a huge difference. It's exciting buying that first power amp and your Ascends will love it.




Keith

[Danbry39]

Double, er triple post...

Not trying to build my post count...Really.




Keith

[Danbry39]

Weird,

Double post. Clicked it once, nothing showed up, so clicked it again. Sorry.




Keith

[curtis]

Curtis, I'm pretty jazzed about your decision to go separates. Although your receiver is a very, very good one, you will notice a huge difference. It's exciting buying that first power amp and your Ascends will love it.

So am I....but it is all about the pocket book right now. I also would like a new A/V rack/stand.

Any good internet dealers for amps or racks? The only internet direct amp company is Outlaw...right?




curtis

[Danbry39]

I can't think of any others off hand, but you'd think they'd be there. Outlaw, by the way, also sells racks and speaker stands now. Just ordered some of their stands myself.

Curtis, you might also check out audiogon, as a lot of times, you can find great used amps there for a very decent price. A lot of dealers also sell there demos there. Just be sure to do as much research as possible on the seller, warranty issues, shipping, etc.

Definitely keep me posted on this search. I'm very interested in what you come up with.


Keith (King of the triple posters)




Keith

[curtis]

My eye is ALWAYS on Audiogon!

Thanks for the tip on Outlaw and racks. I have even thought of a full Outlaw seperate setup. I have heard Rotel seperates, and liked it a lot. Right now I am looking at mid-fi power amps such as Sherbourn, ATI, and Parasound.

I actually have someone coming in to give me a estimate on a simple custom A/V rack and matching bookshelves. I actually got one quote over the phone for an A/V rack....seemed very reasonable when I compared the cost to non-custom.




curtis

[george king]

danbry

Great review, I am glad you love your speakers

[Chris D]

I've heard some refer to the Klipsch lineup as being very engaging, clear, and enjoyable to listen to, but others comment about them being "bright".

Me personally, I love my Klipsch speakers because of their efficiency, and that they do put out a very crisp, clear sound. It really shows every flaw in recorded material and the equipment you hook to it, so you have to be discriminating in what quality of stuff you buy. Me, I'd rather hear every single detail in media than stick my head in the sand and say "I know it's there, but I don't want to hear it--fool me with a muted sound reproduction".

I'm considering pairing a new processor and amplifiers with my Klipsch's that have received comments of being "warm" or "laid back", so perhaps they'll balance each other out perfectly.




CHRIS
Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"

[Chris D]

Sorry, double post.




CHRIS
Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"

[Danbry39]

George,

Good hearing from you and thanks. I've never liked speakers as much as these. I appreciate them more everyday. Quite addicting. But it's that Essence center channel that is most amazing of all. That is one truly special speaker.

Chris,

When I had my Klipsch paired up with my last receiver, my system really didn't sound all that great. Then, when I got my Parasound amp, everything became so great with these speakers. A few more changes like the Rotel and something called Quantum cables just made it all better and better. When I ordered from Lex, he was very careful not to sell me cables that threw off the balance of my system. That's why we went with copper, rather than silver.

My conclusion: Klipsch speakers weren't at fault. They were just honestly putting out what was fed into them. That's why I get so upset when people judge them only by what they hear in a showroom, where they're too often paired up with equipment that's just not right for them.

I just saw two pairs of La Scala's being sold in the classified of the Sacramento Bee this week. Even though I absolutely love my new speakers and they will remain the ones I mainly use, there's always other rooms. Alas, my wife can't stand the look of the La Scalas, so I didn't even ask.




Keith