M&K Speakers

[John Holmes]

After reading that M&K would be the first to enter the "THX Select" speaker race with a speaker that would MSRP at $299.00, I couldn't wait to hear what it would sound like. I beat feet to my local M&K dealer to audition the new system.

Being told for some time that "THX" speakers don't do music well, I was prepared to not be excited. I took some of my favorite cd's with me. Oh my goodness!!! Could this be true...were these speakers producing great sounding music? Yes! But, this could have been just the room and associated equipment. With that in mind I next listened to the car chase scene in "Ronin". Hmmmmm, that sounded pretty darn good too. Much better that my current speaker set up.

Needles to say, I ended up bringing home the THX Select LCR 750 speakers. What I heard in the store was not unique. In my home, the 750's continued to show that they are a surprisingly good sounding speaker.

I also listened to all the M&K speakers (as well as other brands) while at the store. This was before the K series and Xenon were around. I was impressed with ever speaker this company offered. Most of the speakers from other companies ranged from good to great sounding. However, I really don't think there was a more "accurate" sounding speaker (from any other brand) in the entire store. And that's what I was looking for.

Now, I'll admit, there are a ton of other speakers that look much nicer. And there are just as many that sound great and look nice that I would love to own (Martin Logans, Maggies, SF to name a few). However, I wanted to own a nice " THX" rcvr/speaker combo that does a nice job of reproducing movies and music. These speakers filled that bill nicely!




"I came here, to chew bubble gum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubble gum!!!" My DVD's

[Jariten]

8)

M&K ..Oh yes !!!

=))))
should be receiving my MPS-2525 shortly...
*drool*
It's Upgrade season again!!!

[John Holmes]

Hello jariten! And welcome to HT Guide!

I share your enthusiasm about these great speakers. Please let us know how things come together once you get them (inquiring minds want to know! :LOL: ).

I would love to get this thread to become a place where we can discuss this wonderful company.

If you know of any others that would like a great place to hang out and talk about their M&K's, please let them know what we are trying to do here.

Have a great day!




"I came here, to chew bubble gum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubble gum!!!" My DVD's

[Jariten]

Hi John !

well it all started during a small show in Akihabara where some copmanies were demoing their DVD players and other Audio Equipment

Then I started to browse the web...
wandered along in a lot of HT forums...
and When Lex and Matt had this one going...I was in too...
=) (June 2000 !)

Anyway,
Getting back to M&K.
Why did I chose M&K and not something else...

One of the rooms was setup with the S150 THX series and MX5000THXMKII Sub...

other rooms used Yamaha (with their flagship receiver) and a SW-1000 as a sub (don't remember the model of Yamaha speakers they were using..but they had a 7.1 kind of Setup...

Denon had set up a DVD-5000, the 5600 receiver and the M&K speaker setup....

of course the DENON room was packed....
and the Yamaha ..well I was able to squeeze in with my wife...
(Important !! all upgrades need wife approval)

Anyway....so we go through the demo (all rooms were demoing the same material) and we were ..yeah well..ok...not bad....
(at the time I was using a 5.1 setup with a Pioneer AVS-D3X first Dolby Digital receiver and a SW-500 sub still have that and 5 speakers that were home made (sold those)).

So after the firts demo...ok ..fun...the speakers were floorstanding models...and would end up taking a lot of room in our Japanese apartment..(yeah ..we live in Tokyo)...
so it was a bit of a nono for us...

Ok time for the Denon demo...

as I said ..same material than the Yamaha demo...
now when it started.....the subwoofer kicked 1/2 of the audience out...
it was tight....and just majestuous....
The room was a square room about 25' x 25' with a ceiling that was about 8'.
now the difference was amazing....
These "tiny" S-150 speakers and that Sub....were just amazing....
The DVD player was simple...and Amazing too...
(DVD-5000)

So that day I had my boss call up Nippon Columbia so that we could go and have a private Demo in their listening room.
And they set me up with the S-150 and MX5000 THX MKII sub...
Projection was a Barco 1209 receiver was the top of the line (120-150W/channel)

I brought my movies....and of course....I didn't want to leave....O_O

SInce then....I have slowly been upgrading.....I have all 3 front M&K 150 and will soon be getting the MPS-2525 surround tripoles (same as S-250 tripoles but 300$ cheaper because no THX logo in front)
And the next one will be the MPS-5410 (same as the MX5000THX MKII but withouth the THX logo) they have the M&K professional logo on them.

This is my current setup :

LCR : M&K S150THX
Surr : B&W DS6 (needs replacing)
Sub : Yamaha SW-500 (needs replacing)
Pre/pro : Parasound AVC 2500 (planning to replace it with the HALO C1 very soon)
Amp : Parasound HCA-2205A
RPTV Pionner 50" 16:9 won't upgrade until I move out
DVD player : Denon DVD-5000

interconnects and AC cord....all hand buiilt by me...after testing many different cable suppliers and connectors....
o_O

I calibrated the system using the Microphone and the settings that were given to me by one of the designers of the AVC-2500.

It's truly amazing what we can obtain with these M&K speakers...


Enjoy.

T.

[John Holmes]

Great story jariten!

It almost mimics the situtaution under which I auditioned mine as well. It's kind of nice when you audition speakers with a few others and they can support what you are hearing.

You mentioned the floor space of your apartment. And how tower type speakers would not be a good fit. With this understanding, can I assume that you chose not to use stands with your speakers? I ask because, reading M&K's site and speaking with one of their engineers one thing has always confused me.

Becuase of the THX designed limited vertical wave. Placing the speakers at the proper height is even more important. I was wondering how you dealt with this? Also, (this is where it get's contradictive) M&K sells a laser pointer to align your speaker to prefection. Which is what I understand should be done for proper HT reproduction. However, if THX speakers are designed with a wide side-to-side dispersion pattern, should they be aimed directly at the listening position? The engineer that I spoke with from M&K even mentioned that minimum toe-in (no more than 4 degrees) would be his recomendation. But if direct aiming at the listening postion is the "best" for HT, what effect does this have for those (like me) that systems double as their music system too?

I was just wondering if you have dealt with any of these issues.

I like your idea on the surrounds. My surrounds are THX (Fosgate Audionics). Though I am quite happy with how well they blend with my LCR's, my surrounds are huge! At approx. 22"x14"x10" (H/W/D) and around 38 pounds they tend to get noticed. So I too have begun considering updating to tripole speakers. I'm not sure when I will make the move but, I'm hoping to get a nice christmas present! :B




"I came here, to chew bubble gum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubble gum!!!" My DVD's

[Jariten]

:LOL:

I do currently have stands for the fronts and surrounds....

I didn't know about the 4deg toe in for the front speakers..
I know that the L/R sS150 speakers have a slightly angled baffle...
IF you add a bit more angle...I'm not sure the effect will be good..especially if you are going to listen to music also...

I noticed that laser pointer thingy....I'm going to discuss with SONA here in Japan . They distribute the M&K pro products here. Maybe they can show me how to align everything once my surrounds arrive. I would be curious..to see ow they do it...

Hmm what else...

since I'll be going with 7.1 soon....I'm wondering what 2 Channel amp to get....Parasound is kind of RARE here.....so...maybe a Proceed HPA-2 for the surrounds...I'll go and see what I can find....^^

I'll probably order the Halo C-1 next week or something...
Also I was kind oif designing in my head some sool HT setup...
as soon as I put it on paper I'll scan it in a share ^_^;;;

I have some crazy ideas...especially for us in Japan...because with 3 cats it's not always easy !

Have a good week-end

T.

[John Holmes]

T.,

I am enjoying my weekend, thank you! I trust that you are doing the same. 8)

This is a copy of the e-mail that I received from M&K regarding toe-in and placement:



John,

You yourself can "hear" the tweeter dispersion by selecting white noise (like
interchannel FM noise) turn the treble up some what and turn the bass down all
the way, turn off the subwoofer and only connect ONE speaker at a time. The
resulting audio splay should be as clear as aiming a theatrical lighting unit.

What's critical is the VERTICAL angle. The 750 series, and any speaker with only
one tweeter is not NEARLY as critical as the multi-tweeter models where the high
freq signals are coming off as a flat planar wavefront if you will, so the
distances from EACH tweeter in the entire array to your nose (for example) have
to be exactly the same for good imaging.

Also, and this whole thing is a bit moot, the thx spec suggests that the signal
NOT bounce off the ceiling, although the whole premise of the SURROUNDS is that
they DO bounce around so there is LESS localization with the surrounds and MORE
localization with the fronts.

A further problem is every mfgs digital pick-off of bass is somewhat different
depending upon which digital processor the thx stuff is implemented in. Some are
WAY sloppier and mushier than others. The older Lexicon being the worst
offender, not only with their D/A circuitry but that completely annoying front
speaker angle phase thing which CANNOT be turned off and NEVER sounds right.
With other mfgs systems, it is the "speaker distance" setting which is the
culprit. I'd suggest trying the LEAST distance possible first -- and setting
them all the same -- and then "learn" how that sounds, and work outward from
there.

A further item is that Americans have typically placed their LR way too close
together, probably because the TV was so small. American RECORDING/MIX engineers
tyupically put the speakers WAY too far apart - like 90 degrees, so they can get
definitive panning placement during a mix. Then there's the further problem that
MOVIES are mixed with C for voice and LR for Music and Effects - there's never
voice in LR except for reverb. In MUSIC the voice is ONLY LR and almost no one
uses the C because there never has been a Center channel before; it's always
been a phantom center. So you see we have an infinity of cross-related dilemmas.

Here attached is an ITU chart which might help you. I personally suggest placing
the LR a LITTLE bit further apart, like 70 - 75 degrees; this then makes the
degree splay between L and Ls closer, like 70 degrees apart, which are what the
LR is now. That gives you a very even surround coverage, especially when using
M&K Tripoles, which are the best of both worlds, without being the worst of
either world.

As far as the toe-in goes, that's partially visually psychological. I would only
suggest toeing them in a TINY bit, like 4 degrees, because the metal grille does
the rest. However you can hear this as explained above, and experiment
accordingly.

Another trick: set your LR about 1 db LOW and set the C at 1/2 or 1 db HIGH
after you do an SPL test with your Radio Shlock meter (set to C weighted SLOW).

Let me know how you make out with your science projects.


Regards,
Barry

Barry A. Ober
Internet Services Systems Administrator
Senior Audio Engineer
Miller & Kreisel Sound Corp.

www.mksound.com
www.mkprofessional.com
www.mkcdstore.com



----- Original Message -----
From: "JOHN HOLMES"
To:
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 5:59 PM



Hello,

I'm curious as to, how the L/R of the 750 THX system are designed to be
position?


My main usage is for Home Theater. I want to follow THX/Dolby guidelines of
speaker placement. This giudline seems to favor toe-in for the left and
right speaker. But, this seems to contradict the purpose of having a THX
spec of wide horizontal dispersion. Also, with the angle of the tweeter in
the 750 line, it to seems to favor 'No toe-in" by design.

I understand that the final result of placement is room dependant. I would
just like to know, what is the "prefered" choice from it's designed R&D?
That would be my choice in my setup.

Thanks for your time,

John



John T. Holmes
jt357smoot@hotmail.com


End of e-mail

As you can see, he addresses the issues of having single tweeter speakers. as well as the multi-tweeter systems such as yours.

Going with Barry's info, the results left my speakers 19" from the side walls. With 4ft between the left speaker and center channel. And of course the center and right speaker. I used little toe-in. And the soundstage was very immersing! I really felt a wave of info hitting me from everywhere. There was no "hole" in the sound between the side and center speakers.

But, what I did notice after a few viewings of movies...My highs weren't as clear as when they only had 6ft seperating them. Also having a 32" display began to rear it's head. As the action on screen was not being accurately reproduced with this wider speaker placement. Now knowing that the speakers are to close to the side walls, I chose to try a different approach.

This site http://www.cardas.com has some great info about speaker placement with various rooms. I employed the "rectangal room" theory and have been satisfied with the results. It put my L/R speakers much closer together, which gives me back all the detail but, it isn't nearly as involving as before. I will continue to play with my options.

This ended up being much longer than I wanted so I'll beging to close. :LOL:

I am interested in what SONA has to say as well.

I've heard nothing but good things about the Halo line. But, the Proceed is a proven performer. Especially with low impedence speakers. I believe either to be solid choices.

Ok, I'm backing away from the keyboard! :B

Have a good weekend!




"I came here, to chew bubble gum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubble gum!!!" My DVD's

[Jariten]

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

I'm waiting for Mr Nakahara from SONA to get back to me...
I want to go and see their 12.2 surround setup...

I will have to look at the 750 series from M&K a bit more closer...
as the S150 LCR that I have have a d'Apolitto array and the L&R are a matched pair.
so when I put on some demo material...
the front part is seamless...
The sound pans from left to right and right to left without loss...it's pretty amazing....
the DS-6 surrounds....even though designed for Dolby surround (pre DD and DTS speakers) do quite a good job...

though I can hear the difference of tonality between the front and rear..
(using the THX Demo Laserdisc WOW!)
(please bear with me for the typos....)
I'm surrounded by cats right now...so...

ok...going to read the HALO C-1 manual now...
(printed the one from the parasound site....)

and I was talking with Lex about proceed amps...I might pick a couple for the surrounds we shall see what I can find on saturday...

until next time...

Have fun!

[Jariten]

:yeah:

Today I received my MPS-2525 !!!! (same as SS250MKII)

Now if the Halo C-1 would just get here ...

o_O

[John Holmes]

:T ;h ;b>'> :dance:

This is great news. I know you are excited. Your setup is really begining to gel. The Halo will be a great addition.

Let us know when you crank it all up!




"I came here, to chew bubble gum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubble gum!!!" My DVD's

[Jariten]

Well..
The C-1 should be here on the 8/9th of July
Got to get some cables from Lex too.

and I have to go to Korea for work !!
w00t !!

anyway...I have to set a webpage up and show the setup....
^_^

[John Holmes]

It seems that M&K has a new speaker which contains all 5 surround channels in one box. Now this is something I would love to hear. Anyway, here is the link: http://www.mksound.com/whatsnew.html




"I came here, to chew bubble gum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubble gum!!!" My DVD's

[Jariten]

:LOL:


weird...
it's upgrade season again!

Time for the good ole' MX 5000THX sub...
currently shopping around...

=)

Yes ..M&K have some interesting products out there


=)