I hate this.. But it alwayes happen.

**ti33er** · 04 June 2004, 06:52 Friday

hmmm I have just sold my ROTEL 1075 and got a seconds TAG MCLAREN 250w x 3R amplifier, and the difference in sound..........is huge!!! - I had a really lengthy discussion/thread on this forum about ROTEL sounding cold, or thin and I got some very good answers from the experts.......BUT, now that I have heard the TAG MCLAREN with my system (Nautilus 805's), I will never go back to ROTEL amps, I know this is all about tastes and opinions, but IMO I think that you have just heard the difference that possibly ROTEL amplifiers lack for your lust! 8O

Also 801's with a 200w amp! ? - you could probably do with 1000W!! (IMO of course!) :wink:

**aarsoe** · 04 June 2004, 07:01 Friday

Well - the Quad 606 is 2x130 watts...

Dont believe that is the issue. I even called the repair site to see if they had changed anything on the bias setting - but no..

Again - I hate this :M

**DPA** · 04 June 2004, 07:41 Friday

Vincent

I got a Vincent P200 (6*200w) to my 1098 and the sound is really nice and warm with my Infinity Kappa speakers.

I also thought that the Rotel amps were to bright with the Kappa speakers..

**Andrew Pratt** · 04 June 2004, 07:49 Friday

Every amp is going to sound different and if the warmer sound of the quad is what you like then by all means the 5 channel Rotel amps aren't likely the amps for you. The 2 channel versions are a little different sounding so maybe try one of them first but if its the quads you like then great all that matters is you find a sound you enjoy listening to

**aarsoe** · 04 June 2004, 08:02 Friday

Andrew - the issue at hand is not if I like the Quad's or not. It is the fact that I was perfectly happy - and then this &%¤ happen.. - And I know that all of you have experienced it..

You know, if your a drunk you join the AA, if you have a gambling problem you get treatment - but what about us?? :W

**Andrew Pratt** · 04 June 2004, 09:30 Friday

Oh I know how you feel alright...ignorance is bliss as they say :lol:

**aud19** · 04 June 2004, 12:21 Friday

I think :roll: :rofl: sums it up. :B

Jason

**ti33er** · 04 June 2004, 14:15 Friday

Hey aarsoe,

I know this is a little off-topic, but a ROTEL 200w amp with B&W Nautilus 801's - does this really work? - I was hauled over the coals by a few pro's that my TAG conservatively rated at 250W (which is realistically 300W) would not actually be enough for 802's, certainly not enough to do them any justice! ? - I have certainly noticed with my 805s, the jump up in power from 120W to 250W, this has REALLY opened them up making them sound precise and completely unfatigued (that is besides the tonal/mid/bass balance that has been justified!)

Paul :P

**aarsoe** · 04 June 2004, 14:31 Friday

Ti33er - If only I had the extra cash for 801 Nautilus...

Infact its even worse - its the Matrix 801's - They make the Nautilus seem like a walk in the park.. or should I say drive.. :lol:

**DrBoom** · 04 June 2004, 15:06 Friday

I was hauled over the coals by a few pro's that my TAG conservatively rated at 250W (which is realistically 300W) would not actually be enough for 802's, certainly not enough to do them any justice! ?

I agree with that, but to a certain extent.
We're currently powering our 802's (in the store) with an Accuphase C245 pre-amp and a P650 poweramp.
Although it's only specified as 100W into 8 ohms, it has no problem what so ever driving the 802 with ease.
Bass is among the tightest I've ever heard, and there's so much air and detail you'd swear it was a live performance.
However, the P650 delivers not only 100W into 8 ohms, but also 200W into 4, 400W into 2, and 650W into 1 ohm so it's almost completely stable.
So it's not just the wattage that counts, but as most will confirm it's the ability to sustain it with lower impedances.
Never the less, more power is almost always better.

As to what Aarsoe experienced with the Quad vs Rotel amps, I've had the same with Parasound vs Rotel.
But I didn't think that the Rotel 1075 sounded bright on my 804's (or 805's), but just the opposite.
To me it sounded very boring, for lack of a better word.
Sure I could crank up the volume, but the I'd just get loud and boring.
The Para 2205 really was an eyeopener, and it's almost perfect.
Only thing is the midrange can sound rather harsh at some points, but only in a small frequency range.
Perhaps someday I'll trade it for a Bryston, or Classé which I've always fancied :drool:

**ti33er** · 04 June 2004, 17:04 Friday

...as usual thanks for the input DrBoom! ...apparently my TAG amp can hit tonebursts 1000W at 2ohm, so maybe I can still keep her for these babys one day! :T - the person I bought it from said that it would power Nautilus 802's no problem, but other people (Retailers) have said no way hosea, I will need a Bryston amp or something like that? - anyway I'll never be able to play them at excessive/rediculous volumes in London, but they are still my dream speakers...so one day!

PS. Unless B&W bring out something even better in their new range about to launch early next year, apparently(?).....but that is another thread, somewhere else.....AND PROBABLY WAY OUT OF MY BUDGET to be talking about anyway!!!! 8O 8O 8O

:W

**aarsoe** · 05 June 2004, 03:27 Saturday

Went to my dealer yesterday evening - ended up borrowing a set of cables, you know, just to be sure that this was not a matter of the input board that was replaced in my 1095, had a change in impedance.
Also called the repair site to hear if they had adjusted the bias setting on the 1095 - but no, they had no explenation to what is happening.

My level of desperation reached a new high when I at midnight ordered a high end power cable - just to be sure that the inferior power cable I use did not all of a suddan develop a new "sound"

I guess the only road from here is straight down to hell - Reason?Well if I manage to get the 1095 back to what I remember, som other thing will surely start to sound bad.

Remember the movie Conspiracy Theory? Where Mel Gibson playes this crazy guy that think the whole world is after him. I am now beginning to suspect that there is a giant conspiracy where all Hifi producers som how are putting in a component, so that after 3 years their products will start sounding bad - not much, but just a little..

Dont know if I will be able to continue my postings as I fear my wife will have me commited - wait, think I hear foodsteps.... Gotta run

**ti33er** · 05 June 2004, 07:44 Saturday

LOL, my girlfriend says she is a computer widow - she hates this forum too!

I know I may very well get flamed, but I just want to add my 2c by saying that IMO Speaker Cable, Interconnects, Power Cables make such minute changes (mostly a placebo effect) they are hardly worth investing in - there are some brilliant websites dedicated to Audio "Snake Oil"...I doubt any of those things will change what you are concerned about, so don't waste your money!!!!

Check this out!

Top Ten Signs an Audio Cable Vendor is Selling You Snake Oil

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/snake_oil1.php

this is a top 10 list of snake oil scams often seen with consumer audio speaker and interconnect cables. Update includes testing of Audioquest 72VDC DBS system.

Best regards, Paul :T

**jimmyp58** · 05 June 2004, 09:53 Saturday

I won't flame you but I will add some comments.

First, the entire discussion, here or anywhere r.e. 'high-end' cables vs. generic cables, generally turns into two viewpoints that are very opposite from each other. It seems that in general, there isn't a middle ground on this topic; those that believe in high-end cables swear by them and those that don't tell those that are either considering high-end cables or those that are in the "buy" mode to stop and not waste their money.

Second, these discussions can turn ugly. So please, lets not let that happen here. It kind of did a few weeks back so lets not revisit this.

Third, there are a host of forums one can go to to read articles like the link given above. I happened to visit this site some months back. To note, in case you may not already know, I am in the camp that high-end cables do make a difference. I have not "measured" whether they do or not scientifically but it is my ears that notice the difference. Or perhaps to amplify on this, it was my wife's eyes and ears that noticed the difference (she did not know I changed cables and whenever I did an upgrade, she'd comment that the "system" sounded better). Here's is where I have the issue with those that say high-end cables do not make a difference (or much of one). Especially with the forum 'audioholics', I challenged them by asking them if they've ever tried high-end cables. It took three tries for me to get them to respond to my inquiry. Why would they ignore me if they are so bold in their statements? Certain to an idiot like me that if they've made such statements they have either tried these cables and/or scienticially 'tested' them to determine they are "snake-oil". Their response, we won't waste our money trying these cables but if you know someone that will donate some to us for us to test, we'll test them out. What?! So they make these statements without ever auditioning these type of cables; it doesn't matter which high-end manufacturers to me whether they are MIT, Nordost, CAT, or AudioQuest for them to try, they haven't and won't unless someone donates some to them for them to try. Yet again, they bash without ever trying them. This, to me, completely discredits anything they say. And this is no different than some internet parrots that will give advice about a particular piece of equipment without ever owning the piece or auditioning it ... they just regurgitate what they read on these forums.

In many instances I have observed a similar behavior from forum visitors (mostly other forums) on the cable topic of high-end vs. generics. A lot of these folks, when challenged, have never owned a high-end cable or auditioned it. Yet, they pontificate they are of little or no enhancement to a person's system. Huh?!?!

I don't want this to turn ugly. There are a great group of guys that come here and share their experiences/knowledge and it helps us all. If I can be so bold to ask, if anyone reads this and is compelled to reply and they are in the high-end cables don't make a difference camp, please only reply if you have extensively tried high-end cables and found them of no value. Otherwise, please keep your comments to yourself. Don't tell others to save their money, etc. This may make a few folks mad at me, no problem as I can deal with it, but if the replies come and there is no substance behind them, it can spark an ugly debate that I am sure no one wants to read.

It is important though that in the end, whether high-end cables TRULY make an enhanced difference, it is the person's ears that matter most. And it is no different than speakers, amplifiers, source players, etc. If a guy wants and can drop $1,000 on a high-end cable and his budget allows him to do it and he's happy with the results, great. No different than someone who will only buy a $5,000 car vs. someone that buys a $125,000 car. Sure, both will get a person to their destination but all that matters is the person driving the car and not someone wanting to bash another for buying such an expensive auto without driving it to see if it handles better, etc. than their $5,000 car.

Enough, I am sorry for rambling.

Jim

**GosonFletchy** · 05 June 2004, 14:35 Saturday

I can say that I have tested generic cables vs. high end cables back to back. Let me add here that I was a non believer. The cables, shockingly, did make a noticeable difference. However, it was not enough of a difference, for me, to warrant me spending the additional cash. I can not remember the brand on the high end, but I think that it was around $80 per foot or something crazy like that. I am happy with my generic cables and the sound that I get from my system, but that is just my personal opinion. If you have the cash to afford the high end cables, then yes, they do make a difference. By all means though, test it for yourselves before you take one side or the other.

G.

**DrJRapp** · 05 June 2004, 15:13 Saturday

I have tested cables of a couple of manufacturers and I can tell you that there definitly is a difference between cables. Surprisingly, however, sometimes the most expensive cables don't always yeild the best results.

**Aussie Geoff** · 05 June 2004, 22:13 Saturday

Quality "Warm" amplifiers will be the key to your problem!

Aarsoe,

I know the sound difference you are describing with the RSP-1095 and the Quad 606. The Quad 606 is fundamentally a "warm valve like" amplifier - made this way by Quad because of their valve amplifier heritage. The congestion you arte hearing will (very likely) be the Quad running out of current driving capability as it the 801s go through there amazing load variations with frequency.

Cables will make differences but these are only within the fundemental characteristics of the amplifiers and speakers - so to get the sound you are after you will, in my view, have to change amplifiers. For example the excellent silver coax digital of Lex's you tried would (probably) have made the sound even more detailed and bright sounding - not ideal if you want a lush warm sound but great in the right system (for example adding more detail to the Quad 606).

Most audiophiles agree that you can hear clear differences between many amplifiers, both in quality sense and, in the higher end, in the nature of the sound (warm, dry, transparent, lush, bright, tight are all terms used). Once you hear a few high end amps back to back you will know what you like. Interestingly, in my experience the right amp for the job is very system dependent. For example a bright amplifier in a bright system will not be (for most people's ears) a good match.

There are lots of articles (including threads in this forum) about the sounds of different amplifiers and the difficulties of driving the B&W 801, 800, 802 range for example HERE. A range of good amps are recommended by current B&W users. I’d talk to you dealer and try a few high end amps, asking for warm sounding ones (or you can search for reviews and look for consensus about the sound). For example:

Quads own 909s (a nice amp but probably not enough current driving capability for the 801s).
Krell (like the KAV-2250)
Bryston (I haven't heard these as they are not for sale in Australia – but there are some real B&W / Bryston fans out there)
Parasound (especially the awesome JC1 monoblocks)
CinenNova Grand

I am highly confident that you will find several amplifiers that you like the sound of. The more you listen to the more confident you will be in what you buy.

Regards

Geoff

**aarsoe** · 06 June 2004, 02:57 Sunday

Gents

Thanks for all the replies. It's funny how many interpretations there have been of my experience.
For me this has really not been a matter of the sound of one vs another amp - but the whole crazy thing of changing something and then realising that your love of yesterday is really not a fantastic model, but just an ordinary girl.. (Sorry about the comparison) And the worst thing is that I know you have all experienced it.

The cable issue, was just a way of showing how desperate you can become trying to achieve something that you once had/or believed you had.

So this thread should be read, hopefully, with a smile on your lip, while you whisper to your self - thank god it is not me this time.. :lol:

When all that is said and done - Tried the AC cable - and really liked what it did. However I am now thinking about what it can do with the 606. Guess I will never learn.
Come Monday I will be switching so that the 606 will be driving the 801's in front and my 1095 will be driving the 802's as reas and the DS6's as center back..

(I am sure some of you will screem when you realise I was using the 1095 for driving a set of 801's and a set of 802's.. That is asking for trouble - I know.)

The digital cable from Lex have nothing to do with it. In fact it is a very nice cable that is still undergoing burn-in changes, but now as my coax cable from my DVD. That is only until I have established a reference and then it will go back between my cd and dac.

I'll keep you posted.. and thanks again..

**aarsoe** · 06 June 2004, 02:58 Sunday

Oh - forgot one thing...

If the Quad 606 is this good - then I wonder what a 707 can do... :rofl:

**ti33er** · 06 June 2004, 10:00 Sunday

Hi guys, I am only writing this note to defend myself against my previous audio-snake oil money squandering post to "aarsoe"!

ops:

I am not an electrical engineer, nor know all the ins and outs of current/conductance etc. but what I was getting at was that those components of audio would not IMO make the differences "aarsoe" was looking for...explained below...

I have sat down with my girlfriend and a couple of friends on a few occassions, and forced them to endure listening tests with me (just as so to make sure that I am not insane), using different cables lent to myself from Audio shops - Chord/Van Den Hul/Nordost namely, and to be honest we could hardly hear any differences - silver cables seemed to be ever so slightly sharper, but by turning the "tone" setting down 1 notch, they sounded exactly the same as the copper cables? - this was all for test about a previous thread whereby I claimed that ROTEL amplifiers lacked mids/warmth! - none of these components made the changes that I was looking for, nowhere near! – hell, I even tried manufacturing those CAT5 DIY cables for which I nearly lost fingers making, and zippo, nadda, nothing! ...however I sold my ROTEL 1075 (there was an advert of mine on this forum a week ago) and bought a £4000 ($7000) TAG MCLAREN 250W x 3R amplifier and the difference there was EXACTLY what I was lusting for!!! ...so in saying that, my conclusion is that "aarsoe" has now heard what he never realised he was missing with ROTEL amps - he obviously has similar taste in "warmth" (perhaps colouration) in audio to myself!

PS. I only really noticed the lack of so called "mids" when I went to the Cinema, heard my GF's AIWA system, friends Stereo's/Car sound systems and could compare the same songs that I listen to...and thought it sounded a WHOLE LOT better than my 20 times more expensive system which made me MAD!!! :M ?

PPS. No offence meant to anyone, but these are my thoughts on things and my ears and wallet have paid the price too many times!

**Aussie Geoff** · 06 June 2004, 23:29 Sunday

ti33r,

Well said and no offence taken by anyone.

You are describing the much greater difference in sound between amplifiers than is generally achievable just by cables. Essentially:

Most people have a preferred sound style
Amplifiers and speakers and the cables form a tight combination to deliver sound with certain characteristics.
With a given set of speakers - if you want significant changes in sound (e.g. warm to dry)- you (in my experience) get greatest benefit from changing amplifiers to one with a significant sound characteristic you are after.
Cables will help but can’t address significant mismatches in sound preferences – they are more a complementary feature – as they primarily transmit the signal and can only make it worse if poor cables – not improve it.
Equally - sometimes the speakers need changing to get the required sound
Your more powerful TAG will also help keep your speakers mid bass way under control (as would a number of brands powerful amps...

Geoff

I hate this.. But it alwayes happen.

I hate this.. But it alwayes happen.

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