processor or cd dac's...

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  • kennethf
    Junior Member
    • Mar 2003
    • 5

    processor or cd dac's...

    i'm considering adding the rcd-1070 cd player to my rsp-1066 processor. to connect this unit, would you recommend the digital connection to the processor, and let the 1066's dac's work (which i think would defeat the purpose of a higher-end cd player), or use the analog connections and let the cd player's dac's work. which dac's are better for the cd sound?

    thanks for the help
  • mazuly
    Senior Member
    • Feb 2003
    • 238

    #2
    Hi,

    I have the RDV-1080 DVD player and for 2 channel music I can not tell the difference between the DACs of RSP-1066 and RDV-1080. They both sound the same to my ears; therefore I connected RDV-1080 digitally to RSP-1066.

    I think the best way to decide is to listen to both and use the connection that sounds the best.

    Maziar

    Comment

    • jpossum
      Member
      • Jan 2003
      • 38

      #3
      So if I understand this correctly, the DVD player doesn't make a difference to sound if you are running it through the 1066?

      If this is true, I'm kinda depressed. I have the 1066 with a crummy old $150 DVD player. I think the audio sound is average (ie not great) when I just play a normal CD, say 5 years old.

      I was thinking of buying the new Rotel DVD player in hopes of a better audio sound on CD. However, it sounds like the sound won't get much better because it is already going through the 1066 for processing. Is this right?

      Comment

      • jpossum
        Member
        • Jan 2003
        • 38

        #4
        By the way, have you tried to listen to a CD with the DTA Neo 6? It sounds absolutely horrible. This was another reason I was hopeing that the new Rotel DVD player might help me out.

        Comment

        • Andrew Pratt
          Moderator Emeritus
          • Aug 2000
          • 16507

          #5
          Not all DVD players make good CD players in fact most aren't very good at all. If you're not happy with the sound of the Rotel's DAC's I'd suggest you look at getting a different CD player rather then a new DVD player...unless you don't have the room for seperate components. There's lots of interesting options for CD players that will definatly sound different then the Rotel...some of Sonys SACD players for example or try a tube based CD player like that Ah! TJobe or even a Rega CD player will all sound very different to the Rotel...

          Another interesting option is to simply add an external DAC and use your DVD player as a transport. There's again a wide variety of options to choose from here.

          Either way if you're looking for help on adding a new CD player or DAC consider posting a thread in the audio area of the guide site and let the membership at large make some suggestions...beleive it or not not everyone checks the posts in Club Rotel :?




          Comment

          • mazuly
            Senior Member
            • Feb 2003
            • 238

            #6
            Andrew has given you very good advice, but you should remember one thing though. The sound of your Rotel processor is only as good as the digital data that it will receive from your DVD player. If that digital data stream is not very accurate and has a lot of errors on it, the processor can not make it sound better. Also, if your CD has a bad recording, then, it will sound bad through the processor. Basically garbage in, garbage out.

            In my case, the RDV-1080 DVD player sounds very good, because the digital stream has very few errors on it, but I am sure the sound could be improved with a dedicated CD player. If possible, try hooking up another DVD player or CD player (maybe from a friend or ask your dealer to lend you one) and see how that will sound.

            Good luck,
            Maziar

            Comment

            • Andrew Pratt
              Moderator Emeritus
              • Aug 2000
              • 16507

              #7
              Mazuly's talking about jitter values for DVD players which tend to be higher then regular CD players...but there's a big debate about how much jitter is required before it effects what we hear. Basically I think that while its a factor you are far more likely to hear the differences in DAC's using the analog outputs vs differences in jitter.




              Comment

              • jpossum
                Member
                • Jan 2003
                • 38

                #8
                Thanks to both of you. This is great info. I'm no tech wizard but I have to think that a $150 DVD player vs $1000 DVD player has GOT to make a difference, even if it just sending a signal to my 1066 which is then being processed.

                I have read great reviews on the old Rotel DVD player, both from a video and audio perspective. I imagine the new one will be at least equal if not better.

                Maybe I'm getting sucked in but if all a consumer had to do was buy the cheapeest DVD out there and send it to a good processor (1066), nobody would buy a higher end DVD player.

                Comment

                • Blue-Eyes
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2002
                  • 162

                  #9
                  Thats not true. Its not only the dac. Transport is also a issue. The total mix of components make the difference between a cheap and a expensive player.

                  Futher I dont agree. The old rdv1080 sounds better than the new ones. I think that the 1060 is a lower model than th 1080. The 1080 could also be interesting, the prices are dropping from 2500 euro to 1600 euro.

                  And, the quality of the 1080 is not that high. My old denon dvd3800 sounds far more better and is 800 euro cheaper (1700 euro)!




                  ------------------------------------------------------
                  Never drive faster than your Angel can fly!
                  ------------------------------------------------------
                  Never drive faster than your Angel can fly!

                  Comment

                  • Entice
                    Member
                    • Nov 2002
                    • 43

                    #10
                    It "sounds" a bit funny to me that people may be looking for high quality sound when purchasing a CD player, and the use the DAC's in the processor via digital connection. In this element, the sound can be only as good as the processor (DAC) allows it to be. For those interested in going that route, why bother buyind a cd player at all. why not just get a CD transport (like the one in your PC which can be got for under $75 AUD (frobably less than 40 bucks US. then just hook it up to the processor and use it thus.
                    Me?
                    well I'm different. I don't consider the DAC in the 1066 to be good enough for CD capabilities in my system. Since I can't afford a Mark Levinson CD Transport and separate DAC (over $20000 AUD), I think I will go for the single box solution...As mentioned many many times before...ARCAM....

                    It amazes me how some can instantly understand the benefits in using separate components for amplification (pre/pro, and power), yet do not extrapolate this thinking to source material. The answer for me is simple. Each and every time, analogue cables are the choice for me!

                    I'd be interested in everyone elses thoughts...

                    Comment

                    • mazuly
                      Senior Member
                      • Feb 2003
                      • 238

                      #11
                      Andrew,

                      Thanks for your comments and yes I was talking about jitter. You are right about all the debate about this issue, but there should be a difference in a DVD player that cost $1000.00 more in terms of sound. Funny think is that AC-3 and DTS sounds much better using the DAC in RSP-1066. There is more ambient, air and bass using RSP-1066 DAC. For 2 channel music, I can not tell the difference between the RSP-1066 and RDV-1080.

                      Blue-Eyes,

                      Just out of curiosity, have you listened to RDV-1080 as part of your gear or listened to it in a dealer with completely different gear. I am just curious to know how you compared the sound of RDV-1080 and DVD-3800. I have had 3 or 4 different DVD players at my house (in $1000-$2000 CDN price range) and RDV-1080 sounded as good or better. Unfortunately I never had a chance to listen to Denon DVD players in my gear though.

                      Thanks,
                      Maziar

                      Comment

                      • Danbry39
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Sep 2002
                        • 1584

                        #12
                        Entice,

                        I can't even afford the top Arcam models, but, after auditioning quite a few CD players, I chose the Arcam 72T and love it. I've compared using the Arcam alone and running it through the Rotel's DAC's and the difference IS significant to my ears. The only problem is that the 72T doesn't process HDCD, so, on occasion, I will play it through the Rotel. Otherwise, I just love the Arcam.




                        Keith
                        Keith

                        Comment

                        • mazuly
                          Senior Member
                          • Feb 2003
                          • 238

                          #13
                          Entice,

                          I have connected my computer through the digital output of the soundcard, and it just sounded really bad. Both the transport part as well as the soundcard was no match for my DVD player.

                          As for using a dedicated high-end CD player through analog output, I completely agree with you.

                          My next project is different though. I will be ripping all my CDs to computer hard drives (in wave format) and will use analog output of studio quality sound card (RME DIGI96/8 PAD) to play them back. That way I get to have jukebox capability as well as high quality sound. I am researching for best possible computer parts at this time.

                          Thanks,
                          Maziar

                          Comment

                          • Entice
                            Member
                            • Nov 2002
                            • 43

                            #14
                            Danbry,

                            I am very interested to hear what you say re HDCD. Does it sound any different on the 72 vs the Rotel?

                            I wouldn't know, as I haven't tried. But I'd assume that even though it isn't HDCD branded I would assume that the 72 would sound "better".

                            My experience with HDCD has been good in the past, even though not played through HDCD players. Case in point, 2 notable HDCD cd's that I have, played on my car Audio system (Nakamichi CD - not HDCD branded, Soundstream amp + exact crossover & tweeters, and Orion 8MB bass drivers) sound far far superior to any other recording.

                            I would have just assumed that a "better" DAC would outperform an inferior DAC even if the latter had HDCD capability.

                            But, then again, I have been known to be wrong before.

                            As for everyone else, please don't get all frazzled up if I am not supporting the rotel CD/DVD product. I'm sure it's excellent value for money, as with their entire range, but I think that there is better out ther, although not necessarily better in terms of Value for money.

                            And, in answer...I'm tossing up between the Arcam 72, 82, and 92. (92 being twice the price of the 72 unfortunately). Although also in contention are Cyrus (DVD 7) and Creek. Tough choice, but I won't buy any without borrowing and auditioning burnt in units with different burnt in interonnects, on my own system... It's going to be a long, drawn out process!

                            Comment

                            • Entice
                              Member
                              • Nov 2002
                              • 43

                              #15
                              which brings me to my next suggestion...
                              to the originator of this post (whose name escapes me at the moment - I apologise in advance)
                              why not try out different types of interconnects until you find the set that presents the music in the way you prefer it?

                              sounds like a more logical way of achieving the desired outcome!

                              Comment

                              • PhillipC
                                Junior Member
                                • Jan 2003
                                • 15

                                #16
                                Entice:

                                I have a Arcam 72T as well hooked up to the 1066. Save your money and upgrade to the 92T. The 82T does not offer enough and you will end up paying more when you upgrade to the 92T.

                                Comment

                                • Blue-Eyes
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Dec 2002
                                  • 162

                                  #17
                                  Maziar,

                                  I had the opportunity to listen to the Rotel, and I allready had the Denon. I heard it on my on set (that days it was the denon avr3802 hooked up with Rotel poweramps).

                                  The denon dvd3800 beats the Rotel on all points, expecially in sound. There are some difference, by example, the netto weight of the denon is 11kg, the Rotel 5,6 kg. And so on. About the sound. The Denon sound more cristal, more bass, more clear et cetera. My english is not good enough to descripe how I did hear the sound, so I cant explain it enough to you.

                                  Why I choose for Rotel? When a purchased the denon I didn't have a seperate cd and dvd, so the dvd player must be very good at cd playing. Later on a purchased Rotel amps, and I decided to go on with Rotel and completed my set. After a few month my whole set was Rotel (black) except the Denon (gold). Also I purchased a cd player that played better cd's then the denon. A local dealer offered a interesting deal, I did it, and became the owner of a RDV1080. And a very happy one. Since I have'nt a beamer, or a very good TV, I can live with the minor quality loss. But still, the 1080 is a topplayer, but can't compare to the top.




                                  ------------------------------------------------------
                                  Never drive faster than your Angel can fly!
                                  ------------------------------------------------------
                                  Never drive faster than your Angel can fly!

                                  Comment

                                  • Danbry39
                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                    • Sep 2002
                                    • 1584

                                    #18
                                    Good morning Entice,

                                    First of all, the 72T is upgradable, so you might want to start listening there. Secondly, I had a very interesting experience regarding my Arcam's break-in period. I bought a dealer demo which saved me a few hundred dollars. He said, and I believe, that it had less than 10 hours use on it. When I first got it home, it had such a detailed, musical, dynamic sound that was somewhat forward, but not harsh sounding. It stayed this way for about the first thirty hours of my use, then the sonic characteristics changed somewhat and it became a bit harsher sounding on the same recordings I'd been playing before. Strangely, after about twenty more hours, it sweetened up again. I'm not an electrical engineer, so I don't know why it would have such a quirky break-in, but I do know it has stayed wonderfully appealing sonically ever since. The dealer was nice enough to toss in a Transparent power cord (he said this was the only brand power cord he liked) and, hey, a $120 power cord for free, I'm a gonna be taking. He just seemed to really want me to have it because he said it would improve the sound significantly. It was a demo that was just laying around because he'd replaced it in shop with their new line. I've never understood the thing about power cords to be honest, but maybe that was also breaking in. I just have no clue.

                                    As far as HDCD, you're right. I've played a few on both and they did sound different, but I always prefered the sound through the Arcam. The biggest difference, and I mean a totally different sonic footprint, was on Mahler's Song of the Earth, a Reference Recording. I prefered the Arcam here. On another Reference Recording of Copeland (a sonic joy), the sounds through the Arcam are wonderful. The only reason it sounded better using the Rotel's DAC's was that it is an extremely dynamic recording which relies quite a bit on a crashing bass drum for impact. Using the Rotel here, the bass drum exploded even moreso than with the Arcam hooked up via analog only. It's still wonderfully dynamic on the Arcam, but the HDCD did put a little more "pow" in the bass drum.

                                    But, in the end, the Arcam is just a great unit, easily the best I've ever owned and I'm very happy to see someone else on this board might get one. And besides, it, like the Rotel comes in color choices of black and silver.




                                    Keith
                                    Keith

                                    Comment

                                    • mazuly
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Feb 2003
                                      • 238

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Blue-Eyes
                                      Maziar,

                                      I had the opportunity to listen to the Rotel, and I allready had the Denon. I heard it on my on set (that days it was the denon avr3802 hooked up with Rotel poweramps).

                                      The denon dvd3800 beats the Rotel on all points, expecially in sound. There are some difference, by example, the netto weight of the denon is 11kg, the Rotel 5,6 kg. And so on. About the sound. The Denon sound more cristal, more bass, more clear et cetera. My english is not good enough to descripe how I did hear the sound, so I cant explain it enough to you.

                                      Why I choose for Rotel? When a purchased the denon I didn't have a seperate cd and dvd, so the dvd player must be very good at cd playing. Later on a purchased Rotel amps, and I decided to go on with Rotel and completed my set. After a few month my whole set was Rotel (black) except the Denon (gold). Also I purchased a cd player that played better cd's then the denon. A local dealer offered a interesting deal, I did it, and became the owner of a RDV1080. And a very happy one. Since I have'nt a beamer, or a very good TV, I can live with the minor quality loss. But still, the 1080 is a topplayer, but can't compare to the top.
                                      Thanks for your comments Blue-Eyes. I will keep Denon in mind when the time comes to upgrade the Rotel. I am very happy with it at this time though.

                                      Maziar
                                      PS your may want to update your profile

                                      Comment

                                      • Blue-Eyes
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Dec 2002
                                        • 162

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by mazuly
                                        Thanks for your comments Blue-Eyes. I will keep Denon in mind when the time comes to upgrade the Rotel. I am very happy with it at this time though.

                                        Maziar
                                        PS your may want to update your profile
                                        Done it!




                                        ------------------------------------------------------
                                        Never drive faster than your Angel can fly!
                                        ------------------------------------------------------
                                        Never drive faster than your Angel can fly!

                                        Comment

                                        • wng
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Dec 2002
                                          • 102

                                          #21
                                          Hey folks, and especially those talking Arcam:

                                          I have the 92 (not 92T, difference being only text capability) and it's a wonderful player. It's supposed to be quite close to the higher-end FMJ-23, though I didn't demo to confirm. I've done some comparisons between the Arcam and Rotel pre/pro and there's quite a difference, with the CD player's sound being crisper and less veiled. HDCD kind of depends of the recording. HDCD discs generally are very good, but some are better than others. But it's fun to see the HDCD indicator light up when you least expect it as some discs are encoded and not even mentioned.

                                          Comment

                                          • Blue-Eyes
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Dec 2002
                                            • 162

                                            #22
                                            @wng:

                                            Do you know how the arcam compares to the Rotel 991 cd player (the best cd player of Rotel)?

                                            This week, I have a comparisation wiht the arcam 92T, also with a rdv1080 and a unknown HK cd player of 1000 euro.




                                            ------------------------------------------------------
                                            Never drive faster than your Angel can fly!
                                            ------------------------------------------------------
                                            Never drive faster than your Angel can fly!

                                            Comment

                                            • wng
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Dec 2002
                                              • 102

                                              #23
                                              Sorry Blue-Eyes, I did not compare the two. I only compared between the Arcam players, a Linn player I can't remember, and the Naim CD5. You can search audioreview.com, I think some 92T owners have compared it to Rotel, Rega, and others. Hope it helps.

                                              Comment

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