RSP-1068 7.1 Analog Inputs to 5.1 Output

[bnieman]

Hello all,

I am currently trying to figure out the best way to use my RSP-1068 with the new lossless surround sound codecs.

Gianluca posted a link in another thread (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=32853) to Octava 4 x 2 HDMI Distribution Amp with 7.1 Audio Routing (http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI%20swit..._7_1audio.html)

I am thinking of ordering one to use the new lossless surround sound codecs in my 5.1 home theater.

Will this be possible without a 7.1 setup? How does the RSP-1068 handle a 7.1 analog input when you have it set to only 5.1 speakers? Will it just drop the back channels, or mix them in the SR and SL channels?

If it can't downmix them, do Blu-Ray players have the option of mixing the 7.1 source down to 5.1 before outputting LPCM?

Any info would be very much appreciated.

Cheers,
Bryan

[Kevin D]

Good question. I know on the PS3 you can specify whether to send out 5.1 and/or 7.1 MPCM through HDMI, but I haven't seen a similar setting on most stand-alone players.

I know the multi-channel output settings on most do not effect the HDMI output. IE, I've set HDMI to MPCM and get full signal, but the analog outputs to stereo to send to the rest of the house. I would imagine part of the HDMI spec for accepting MPCM is to downmix it accordingly. I can have the same settings on a blu-ray player and set the processor to 5.1 or 7.1 and not lose any sound information.

I would think there would have to be a setting on the conversion box in order to properly decode the signal. The multi-channel inputs on the Rotel units will not covert anything. If you send it info on the center rear inputs, you will only get that information out of the center rear outputs.

Kevin D.

[bnieman]

Kevin

Thanks for the information. That's a great tid bit about the PS3!

I've been leaning away lately from the PS3 since all the comparisons I've read agree that stand alone players have superior video quality. The ability to convert a 7.1 LPCM signal to a 5.1 signal is a pretty important feature in my book... especially for those of us with older processors.

I looked through the entire manual for the Pioneer 51FD (the player I've been eying up) and it says the speaker settings have no effect on the HDMI audio and only pertain to the analog output. This would have me conclude that player would not work for me.

I sent an email off to Octava asking about the 7.1 > 5.1 mixing.

If anyone else knows of other players that can do the down mixing please let me know! That is a huge plus for the PS3.

Off-topic: What's the big deal with 7.1 anyway? I would much rather invest in a great 5 speaker system than a good 7 speaker system.

[Gianluca]

Only issue I see with using a PS3 and Octava is the fact that they don't have speaker placement or bass management. I have a PS3 and thought this would be perfect but since the PS3 has no speaker placement or bass management I do not see the advantage of using the Octava. Unless I'm wrong and didn't find the settings in the PS3 we will have to wait a little longer. And if I am correct that your Pre/Pro or my RSX-1056 does not preccess the multichannel I am still SOL. :|

Gianluca

[bnieman]

To eliminate the need for bass management and speaker placement I've placed my speakers equidistant from the listening position and I am looking to replace my rear speakers with 703s to match my fronts and hopefully upgrade my HTM7 to at least a HTM1-N so all speakers will be full range (I still think the weakest piece in the chain is the HTM7... the 703s blow it out of the water in regard to realism).

[Kevin D]

Or try to find a used Outlaw ICBM:

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/icbm.html

Kevin D.

[Bostonears]

The ability to convert a 7.1 LPCM signal to a 5.1 signal is a pretty important feature in my book... especially for those of us with older processors.

I looked through the entire manual for the Pioneer 51FD (the player I've been eying up) and it says the speaker settings have no effect on the HDMI audio and only pertain to the analog output. This would have me conclude that player would not work for me.

I sent an email off to Octava asking about the 7.1 > 5.1 mixing.

If anyone else knows of other players that can do the down mixing please let me know! That is a huge plus for the PS3.

Many Blu-Ray players with 7.1 analog outputs can do 7.1 to 5.1 mixdown in the player, then route it out analog. So why not just run 5.1 analog from the Blu-Ray player to the 1068? You just need to make sure the Blu-Ray player is one which can internally decode the lossless codecs. The chart at this web page http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=14323698 is really useful for understanding which players can do what. (Look for models listed as "Decode" or "Complete" for all the audio formats that you're interested in handling. Models listed as "Stream" can only read the data off the disc and stream it to digital outputs. They don't decode internally.)

And if you need multiple HDMI connections for video, just get a inexpensive separate HDMI switcher. I don't understand why you're even considering an expensive device like the Octava. It's not necessary, and other than HDMI switching, it doesn't do anything that the right Blu-Ray player wouldn't do. Or am I misunderstanding your objective?

[bnieman]

Many Blu-Ray players with 7.1 analog outputs can do 7.1 to 5.1 mixdown in the player, then route it out analog. So why not just run 5.1 analog from the Blu-Ray player to the 1068? You just need to make sure the Blu-Ray player is one which can internally decode the lossless codecs. The chart at this web page http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=14323698 is really useful for understanding which players can do what. (Look for models listed as "Decode" or "Complete" for all the audio formats that you're interested in handling. Models listed as "Stream" can only read the data off the disc and stream it to digital outputs. They don't decode internally.)

And if you need multiple HDMI connections for video, just get a inexpensive separate HDMI switcher. I don't understand why you're even considering an expensive device like the Octava. It's not necessary, and other than HDMI switching, it doesn't do anything that the right Blu-Ray player wouldn't do. Or am I misunderstanding your objective?

Do you know of any specific players that downmix 7.1 > 5.1 within the unit? Usually those settings to not apply to the analog out.

Thanks,
Bryan

[hifiguymi]

I know that the Sony BDP-S550 and the Denon DVD-3800BDCI both do for sure.

Eric

[Bostonears]

Do you know of any specific players that downmix 7.1 > 5.1 within the unit? Usually those settings to not apply to the analog out.

As far as I know, every player that has both internal decoding and multichannel analog outputs can downmix to the analog outputs based on the speaker settings in the player. Didn't your own reading of the Pioneer user manual indicate that is exactly what the FD51 player does?

I looked through the entire manual for the Pioneer 51FD (the player I've been eying up) and it says the speaker settings have no effect on the HDMI audio and only pertain to the analog output.

[bnieman]

Sorry I had a typo which may have conveyed a different meaning.

I was asking if there are any players that downmix 7.1 to 5.1 when sending out a digital multi-channel PCM signal.

The Pioneer 51-FD can only downmix to the analog outputs, it will not downmix the LPCM stream.

[Bostonears]

The Pioneer 51-FD can only downmix to the analog outputs, it will not downmix the LPCM stream.

Yes, and the player will decode the lossless codec, then downmix it from 7.1 to 5.1 and send it to the multi-channel analog outputs. If you use the multi-channel analog outputs from the Blu-ray player to the Rotel 1068, that will give you lossless high resolution multi-channel audio (5.1 in your case). Isn't that what you're trying to accomplish?

If the player can decode multi-channel audio, and you have multi-channel analog connections in both the player and the Rotel preamp/processor, there's no sonic advantage to using a separate decoding device like the Octava. Basically, the Octava would be replicating capabilities that are already built into any Blu-ray player that has internal decoding of lossless codecs and multi-channel analog outputs. If you're using a preamp/processor with multi-channel analog inputs, the only reason to use a device like the Octava is if your Blu-ray player has the ability to read lossless audio data and stream it over HDMI, but doesn't have the ability to decode the lossless data and send it over multi-channel analog outputs. The Playstation 3 happens to fit that set of criteria.

If you check the list of Blu-ray players at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post14323698, you can get high resolution lossless audio to your Rotel 1068 from any one of the players that has either "decode" or "complete" in the "advanced audio codec support" columns, and has 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs. According to the chart, the Pioneer 51HD supports decoding of several advanced audio codecs, but not DTS-HD Master Audio format, so other models might be a better choice for you if you want to use that format. You can buy a Blu-ray player that meets all the criteria, such as the Panasonic BD55 or the Sony S550 for the price of the Octava, without having to buy a Blu-ray player AND the Octava.

[bnieman]

Bostonears,

I appreciate your response and it's very good information but you still have my question misunderstood

I completely understand that the 51-FD can downmix the high resolution audio and send it to the multi-channel ANALOG out.

I was asking if there are any players that can downmix the 7.1 > 5.1 and send it out of the player as a multi-channel PCM signal via HDMI.

The reason I was looking at the Octava was because I have multiple HDMI sources. Asside from the Blu-Ray player I need to hookup my computer in order to play my music library of high resolution multi-channel FLAC files ripped from DVD-Audio which exceed the bandwidth of S/PDIF (up to 5.1 channel, 24bit, 96khz).

It looks like I will be upgrading my preamp/processor since Octava has not returned my email and I highly doubt it can do the downmixing I need it to.

Cheers!
Bryan

[Bostonears]

Ah, now I understand why you want to use HDMI. In that case, I think your money would be better spent by investing in a new preamp/processor or receiver rather than an add-on device like the Octava. This thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=940065 has a really useful chart of which pre/pros can handle high bit rate codecs over HDMI. Unfortunately, most of those units are quite pricey, as the capability is primarily in high end units. The selection of receivers that can handle high bit rate is much better, and less expensive.

And for Blu-ray players, you'll want one that has either "stream" or "complete" in all the "advanced audio codec support" columns. The decoding and downmixing doesn't need to happen in the player.
Good luck!

[bnieman]

Thanks for the HDMI supported Pre/Pros link! What a great resource. I have been following the Blu-Ray player list like that but did not know there was one for Pre/Pros.

Perhaps I should start another thread, but any recommendations on my short list here based solely on the chart?

Marantz AV8003
Rotel RSP-1570
Integra DHC 9.9
Onkyo Pro PR-SC886P

My Rotel dealer highly recommends the Marantz AV8003. He hasn't even started stocking the Rotel RSP-1570 due to the minor glitches people have been having (the one that scares me the most is not being able to lock onto DTS-HD-MA at 96kHz)

I have no experience with Integra or Onkyo (well except for $200 Onkyo mini-system I used in my office once that went dead for no apparent reason after 4 years)

The pre/pro will be used with a Rotel RMB-1085 amp and B&W 703s and HTM7.

Cheers!
Bryan

[Bostonears]

I'd don't know enough about all the features of the various models, but if you're inclined to the Marantz AV8003 and don't mind buying a factory refurbished unit, you can get a great deal at Accessories4Less: http://www.accessories4less.com/make...ocessor/1.html.

They're a fully authorized Marantz dealer, and they are authorized to sell Marantz refurbs online. (They might be the only authorized dealer in the U.S. with that status.) I've bought a few items from them over the years, and they were very trustworthy with no hanky panky.

[roscoe5250]

Note sure if this will help, but I was in the same situation. I wanted support for the new codecs, but my processor didn't support HDMI. A Sony outlet near me had b-stock S550s with a 30 day refund period for $250, so I figured I would at least try it out. I have a PS3 right now, so I wasn't going to keep the 550 unless it really was a significant upgrade.

I calibrated the 5.1 analog output out the dvd player, and started bouncing back and forth between codecs. The only blu-ray movies I have are Dolby True HD, and when I toggled back and forth between True HD and regular DD, I could barely notice a difference. On stuff like glass breaking or gunshots, I could hear a little more detail, but nothing major. Specifically on the Dark Knight, I couldn't tell a difference.

Anyone else try this out? Guess my hearing isn't what it used to be

[bnieman]

My dealer let me borrow the Marantz AV8003 this weekend, I have to return it on Tuesday morning so I have another 24 hours with it.

I tested it with a Rotel RMB-1085 and B&W 703s/HTM7/ASW-750.

It sounds on par with my Rotel RSP-1068 regarding CD and DVD-A playback. I switched between HDMI and analog out on my Pioneer Elite 79Avi and heard little to no difference neither having an edge (both sounded great, just like my RSP-1068)

I manually set up the AV8003 at first and did some testing then I used the included microphone to set up Audyssey and tested some more. After testing my stance on Audyssey is it really doesn't do much and I saw no noticeable advantage.

Today I had a friend bring over a PS3 to test Blu-Ray and the new codecs. We tested with Band of Brothers, Casino Royal, and 300. The difference in quality between the core tracks and lossless tracks was striking. The soundtrack took on a whole new presence in the room.

The Network feature on the AV8003 was disappointing. It doesn't support FLAC or MKV. Personally I don't have a use for it at all.

Overall the AV8003 is a nice unit but the $2,600 price tag is a bit more than what it is worth to me. And the features it has that the Rotel RSP-1570 does not have I wouldn't be using (HD Radio, Audyssey calibration, Network player).

My dealer is not stocking the RSP-1570 yet because of the bugs they are working out so I have no way to demo it.

I find myself still stuck but a little more educated about what's out there (and there really isn't much at all!). If the Marantz AV8003 was $1,000 cheaper I would probably pull the trigger on it but at $2,600 it's just not worth it since it does not add any noticeable upgrade to CDs and DVD-A.

Cheers!
Bryan