Parasound Halo A51 5th Channel Problem.

[mitch57]

Well it looks like my Halo A51 Amp's 5th channel is on it's way out. I started noticing the the 5th channel, which is the surround right channel, didn't seem to have much of a signal. I first noticed it while listening to DVD-A and multi channel SACDs. It just didn't seem like I was hearing much of a signal coming from the surround right channel and I could hear more music from the surround left.

My first thought was that I didn't have my receiver's (Denon 3805) speaker channel trim set right so I went into the setup menu and played some white noise through all the channels to do some comparisons. Sure enough the trim was set correctly and no matter how high I jacked it up I just couldn't get the volume out of the surround right that I could with the rest of the channels.

So I started some in depth troubleshooting to find the root of the problem. I switched the speaker leads from the surround left to the surround right. The problem moved to the surround left speaker. That eliminated the speaker and the speaker wire.

Then I had to figure out if it was the receiver, amp or a interconnect. I switched the RCA interconnects going from my receiver to the amp and the problem was still there. Then I disconnected the pre out from my surround right on the receiver and the amp and hooked the speaker leads on the surround right to my receiver. The problem went away.

As a final check I tried switching my pre outs on the receiver so the surround right was now connected to the surround left on the Amp. The problem stayed in the surround right speaker (the receiver saw it as the surround left). The bottom line is that anything that is plugged into the 5th channel on the Amp exhibits the problem.

I can hear white noise coming from the channel but it's a very low noise level compared to the other channels relative to the trim level.

Obviously there is a problem with the amp. Anyone know what the problem might be? Bad amplifier on the 5th channel? Bad resistor? Bad cap? Just curious and very frustrated! It's less then a year old. Now I will have to lug that beast 75 miles to Seattle where my dealer is at. :M

[Peter Nielsen]

Could be as easy as a bad solder joint...

Peter

[mitch57]

I took my amp to an authorized service center in Tacoma, WA. It's 111 miles one way but still cheaper and safer then shipping it directly to Parasound.

I talked to the service tech on the phone on Friday and I wasn't very pleased with what he had to say about Parasound Products. He said they service just about every make and model of audio/video gear out there. I asked them how often he worked on Parasound he said he gets two or three a week in for repair. Two or three a week?! That seems like alot especially coming from one area. I have a friend who also has some older Parasound Amps and he had to have one of them repaired also.

It would be interesting to see how many people have had problems with their Parasound gear. The tech also told me that Parasound is pretty slow at getting them replacement parts when needed. He also said they don't pay them squat for the warranty repairs. They only pay them $40.00 for each repair regardless of what the problem is or how long it takes them to diagnose/repair it.

Not very incouraging information for a higher end audio company. I'm a bit dissappointed. I haven't even had my amp for a year yet and it already has issues. And from what I gather it seems to be pretty common place with Parasound.

Sorry for the rant but I had to vent.

[Peter Nielsen]

Well... I never have had any problems with any of my 9 JC-1s. My A51 worked fine while I owned it, and apparently it survived the trip to the new owner in Australia without problems.

Sounds like you got a lemon... Did you buy it new or used?
(Personally, I would have sent the unit back to Parasound, since there is always a small chance that they will replace it with a new one).

Peter

[mitch57]

Peter,

I bought it new. What do you think the chances are of them replacing the unit? I would say that's pretty unlikely unless they couldn't fix the problem. I'm hoping it's something simple like a solder joint or something.

If it breaks again then I will send it back to Parasound and politely ask that they replace it. I also didn't want to send it back to Parasound because I didn't want to pay $150.00 or more to ship it.

Let's just hope it's an easy fix and that it doesn't have any future problems. I'm still a bit concerned about the reputation the repair shop has had with Parasound. Are your JC1s made in Taiwan also?

[Peter Nielsen]

Are your JC1s made in Taiwan also?

Yes.

It is a "known" fact that the output transistors could be better soldered into place. One of the modifications for the JC1s that Empirical Audio's $2,500 TurboMod for the JC-1s will buy you is resoldering of the transistors. (#11 "Resolder all of the power output transistors")

Peter

[Chris D]

Thanks for the link, Peter, I wasn't aware of that particular mod. Quite pricy, but I wonder what they could do with my A21 and A51, and if it would be worth it.

Mitch, as for you, I'm sorry to hear about your woes. I'm surprised to read about the repair shop's experience with Parasound and their equipment. I personally have had zero problems with my Halo equipment, other than the LCD screen being DOA on my first C1. When I sent it back, they said it was just disconnected.

If you do get a chance to interface with Parasound direct, and not repair shops, I think you'll find that their customer service is unbeatable. I've been very impressed with Parasound's relations, and there's quite a few great stories here in the Club about it, too.

[mitch57]

I have indeed been in contact with Parasound directly. They are very helpful and I'm sure they would take care of the problem. But at $150.00 or more to ship it to them it just doesn't make sense at this point.

I'm just disappointed to hear that an authorized Parasound repair shop has had such bad experience with them. I also find it frustrating that it's a known fact that the output transistors have poor solder joints. If this is the case why hasn't Parasound fixed the problem? How much more can it cost to do a proper solder job? I would say about $1.00 including labor. Maybe less considering the labor rate in Taiwan.

You may see some performance gains with the mod that Peter mentioned but is it worth it considering you would void the warranty by doing so?

[Peter Nielsen]

II'm just disappointed to hear that an authorized Parasound repair shop has had such bad experience with them.

Did they actually tell you that they have that many HALOs coming in? Parasound has been around for more than 20 years, so I'm not surprised at all to hear that they have units coming in all the time...

Peter

[mitch57]

Not HALOs specifically but Parasound in general.

[mitch57]

Okay! Here's the scoop on my amp. I picked it up today after leaving it with the authorized service center all week. I was in contact with the service tech every day. From day one he saw no problems with the amp! He checked solder connections, played white noise through all channels, bench tested it with whatever they use to bench test with, and then some. He even let it run all night long. Nada! Zip! Zilch! No Problemo!!!

As a second test I took it into the dealer that I bought it from in Seattle, WA (Speaker Lab). They hooked it up to a processor with two channels, 4 and 5 on the amp, and it worked flawlessly. Channel 5 was the one I had problems with. I started thinking that I must have overlooked something in my troubleshooting procedures.

So off I went to bring the amp back home. I expected to see the same problem when I hooked every thing back up but low and behold the problem was gone!

Now I'm beginning to suspect that there is a loose connection somewhere. I figure it must have wiggled around during the long 111 mile commute to the authorized service center. Time will tell. If it comes back again I will send it back to Parasound who, by the way, offered to pick up the tab on the shipping if I still have problems with it. Tony at Parasound said to keep him posted and if the problem resurfaces he would issue a call tag and have it picked up at my home or work, whichever was the most convenient for me. Now that's what I call service!!!

I'm still baffled as to what the problem was. Tony thinks it might be one of those intermittent things that a good beating fixes... At least for a few weeks or months anyway. We'll see! I'll keep everyone posted if the problem resurfaces again.

[Chris D]

[J.H.]

Awesome story and the part about the customer service being so good does not surprise me at all. I have contacted them several times and each time they were very helpful. I often email the owner of the company Richard Schram just to shoot the breeze about the HT business and he always responds with very honest answers. Several times he suggested I stay with my older Parasound amp rather buy a new one just to buy a new one. Now what other company would steer you away from buying a new amp because its not needed? They are very good over there for sure.

[nicholtl]

I wonder if Parasound's customer service is so unconditionally perfect only because they know if it were any less, we'd share it all over these forums and it would be their downfall!

Kidding... It's really great to know we own a product whose manufacturer stands behind 100%. Talk about being able to sleep at night.

[Chris D]

Well, I think the point is that the really great companies out there realize that reputation means so much to business. It works both ways, that both positive and negative stories about your company and its products makes it way through the public, but of course negative information always has more impact.

I think Parasound takes their company objectives of a huge warranty, maximum customer service, and a "less upgrades, but of only the finest quality" approach, in order to really build a solid company with the best reputation that will keep in the market for years and years. And Parasound isn't a mass-market company that dominates the industry or anything with gazillions of product models, like Denon, Sony, etc. I'm not sure what terms you'd use for their role in industry prodcuts - "niche", or "botique" seem too narrow in focus, "value products" nor "high-end A/V" don't really tell the whole story. I don't know if you can really pigeon-hole them.

In any case, Parasound does appear to be dedicated to building their rep, not just avoiding bas press. The story that has stuck in my head more than anything from this forum was one of our club members who picked up their unit from Parasound's offices directly after being worked on, and the president Richard Schram insisted on carrying it out to his car for him. Now THAT is service.

[Micke.H]

Hmm i think i have the same problem with mine A52 one channel is dropping a lot of level....like 15db or so.....Urrk

[mitch57]

Hmm i think i have the same problem with mine A52 one channel is dropping a lot of level....like 15db or so.....Urrk

Does it do it all the time or is it itermittent? I moved my surround left and right from channel 4 and 5 on the Halo to channels 1 and 2 and vice versa for the Front left and right. I'm going to leave it like that and see if I hear any channel level decrease. I've discovered that you can't really judge the volume level from your surrounds because they aren't always receiving much of a signal. The left and right channel should always be receiving a good strong signal when playing music.

Parasound tech support also recommended that I test only with a music CD so that it will be readily apparent if there is a significant volume decrease in the left or right channel. It's probably best to play it in stereo also. That way you only have two channels that your dealing with.

Keep us posted on your situation.

[Micke.H]

It was my centerchannel that dropped in level so i changed to right surr and the problem still remain in the surr channel now maybe a little less i gonna try with my fronts also...
And the problem seems to come after a lite while ..
Gonna try my fronts now and We shall se...
Brb

[Micke.H]

I hooked my Left frontspeaker to the middle channel at the amp "the one with sounddropping" and it worked fine for about 10 minutes then it dropped like 15 db again Uurrkkk..
What can i do ?
I bought the A52 7months old used in sweden...
Best regards micke

[J.H.]

Contact Parasound right away and see what they say? They have great customer service and will help in any way they can trust me.

[Micke.H]

already done that..im waiting for answer this week...

[Peter Nielsen]

already done that..im waiting for answer this week...

Did you e-mail or call them? I've found that e-mail doesn't work at all. You have to call them if you want an answer...

Peter

[Micke.H]

Hum.. i e-mailed ........

[Micke.H]

I got the answer today with e-mail...

[Micke.H]

maybe i have too kick on it for a while and keep my finger crossed....and then i works again ,if im lucky like mitch was..

[mitch57]

maybe i have too kick on it for a while and keep my finger crossed....and then i works again ,if im lucky like mitch was..

I don't know if I would consider myself lucky yet. I had the issue come back the other day again. That's when I switched the amp inputs so channel 4 and 5 are now connected to my front left and right speakers.

I also reset the Receiver back to factory defaults at the same time. The problem hasn't reoccured again YET. I'm keeping my fingers crossed too.

You said you got an answer with email from Parasound. What did they tell you?

[J.H.]

Yes what did Parasound say?

[mitch57]

It's Back!!! As a computer tech I would classify this as a "technician's nightmare". It's so erratic that you can't reproduce the problem often enough or consistently enough to even diagnose it.

I came home, turned on my system, and noticed low volume coming from the front left speaker. So I went to the setup menu on my receiver and played the test tones. Now the low volume (about 10db lower then the other channels) is coming from the left front which is now connected to the 5th channel on the amp. As you may recall, it used be the surround left. I even tried powering everything off and then back on again but the problem remained.

So, as Tony Points (Parasound tech support) suggested when I talked to him on the phone last week, I put in a CD (Aerosmith - Just Push Play SACD Stereo) and played a few songs. Sure enough the volume level was significantly diminished on the front left channel. So much so that you could barely hear the left channel.

My next step was to change out the RCA cable but before I did that I thought I would power everything off and back on again, one more time, and play the same SACD again. Once I did that it started working normally again.

I know if call Parasound they will issue a call tag for it but I can't help but wonder what the outcome of that is going to be. If he gets it in house and he can't reproduce the problem (just like the authorized repair center couldn't reproduce the problem either) what's he going to do? Send it back to me with a copy of their assesment report documenting what they checked and that the problem could not be duplicated? I just don't want the same amp to come back to me only to have the same problem re-appear intermittently just like it's doing now.

Parasound even admitted that they might have a difficult time getting the amp to reproduce the problem. If that were the case would they just replace the amp? Or would I have to keep sending it back in every time the problem resurfaces?

What would you do in my situation?

[Peter Nielsen]

Parasound even admitted that they might have a difficult time getting the amp to reproduce the problem. If that were the case would they just replace the amp?

Yes, most likely. You might to have to send it in twice, but the third time you will most likely get a new amp. My guess is that the second time you send it in, they will switch out the power supply or whatever component(s) they think would cause the problem. If it's still not working right after that measure, they will eventually exchange it for a new one instead of blindly trying to fix it over and over.

FWIW, they already sent it back once without doing anything. The next time you send it in, I bet they will do SOMETHING (even if done in blind). They won't keep sending back the unit saying that it's Ok. That would just be stupid, and seriously hurt them. I bet Parasound doesn't operate that way. This is how it is typically handled by most reputable manufacturers:

1. See no problem -> Send it back
2. See no problem -> Exchange parts that possibly could cause the problem the customer describes
3. See no problem -> Send customer a replacement

Many manufacturers thankfully skip #1. I'm surprised that Parasound did not go directly to #2...

If expensive shipping is involved, they can probably be talked into going directly to #3.

Peter

[Micke.H]

The mail from parasound / Dear Micke,

We have received your below inquiry, but unfortunately, we do not have a distributor/repair center in Sweden at this time. However, we do have one in Norway, and below if their contact information. Please note that there is no warranty, and you will have to pay for all repairs.

Norwegian Custom Media Solution

Contact: Maik Maagero

Email: maik@ncms.no

Phone: 47 67 578555

Please contact Maik and he will advise about repair. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Christine Zmuda

Parasound Products, USA

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
My channel works for about 10-20 minutes after i turned it on then it dropps like 15db ....
My A52 have the middle channel with the dropping in level urrrk
Micke.H

[mitch57]

FWIW, they already sent it back once without doing anything. The next time you send it in, I bet they will do SOMETHING (even if done in blind). They won't keep sending back the unit saying that it's Ok. That would just be stupid, and seriously hurt them. I bet Parasound doesn't operate that way. This is how it is typically handled by most reputable manufacturers:

1. See no problem -> Send it back
2. See no problem -> Exchange parts that possibly could cause the problem the customer describes
3. See no problem -> Send customer a replacement

Many manufacturers thankfully skip #1. I'm surprised that Parasound did not go directly to #2...

If expensive shipping is involved, they can probably be talked into going directly to #3.

Peter

Actually I didn't send it in to Parasound. I took it to a Parasound authorized service center here in my area. Are you saying that because I took it into an authorized repair center that they will count that as the first repair attempt even though it didn't go directly to Parasound?

[Peter Nielsen]

Actually I didn't send it in to Parasound. I took it to a Parasound authorized service center here in my area. Are you saying that because I took it into an authorized repair center that they will count that as the first repair attempt even though it didn't go directly to Parasound?

Oh, I thought Tony @ Parasound already had a look at it.

Send it directly to Parasound. Since they're paying for shipping I'm sure that they will either find the problem or send back a new unit. They're not going to give money to UPS for nothing...

Peter

[mitch57]

Well it appears that it's back for the long haul now. I can't get it to work correctly no matter what I do now. That is unitl I ship it back to Parasound. They probably won't find anything wrong with it by the time it takes it's beating through UPS or FedEx.

I put the front left pre-out back in channel number 1 on the amp and unplugged the pre-out on the surround right. I now have the surround right speaker lead plugged back in to the receiver. The amps driving the FL, FR, C, and SL. The reciever is driving the the SR. It works fine with this configuration.

Damn the bad luck!!!! And what a hassle!

It's times like this when I wonder why I'm in the technology industry. Technology is great when it works but when it doesn't it sucks big time!

[Peter Nielsen]

They probably won't find anything wrong with it by the time it takes it's beating through UPS or FedEx.

Even if they don't find anything wrong, insist on that they do something to it (resolder output transistors, reseat connectors, etc.)

Peter

[mitch57]

Even if they don't find anything wrong, insist on that they do something to it (resolder output transistors, reseat connectors, etc.)

Peter

I talked to Tony today. He didn't sound very incouraging. Basically he said they bench test it for a week and if they don't find anything wrong with it they send it back to me.

If they don't find anything wrong with it and send it back as is, I will send it in one more time and request that they replace the amp. After the third attempt I will move on to another manufacturer. But before I do that I am going to talk to that manufacturer's tech support and verify what their policies are for repairing the same problem more then once.

I'm a bit frustrated that Parasound isn't willing to replace the amp if they can't reproduce the problem. Especially since I have been in communication with them more then 6 times on this issue plus another 6 conversations with the tech at the authorized Parasound service center.

I'm willing to wait and see what happens on this go around before I go off half cocked. But I pretty much gurantee that if they can't reproduce the problem and they don't attempt some sort of repair/replacement of parts I will be sending it back in again. I won't be a happy camper by that time.

:M

[Chris D]

Yeah, let's see what happens in the next round here, first.

[mitch57]

I sent my amp back to Parasound. They received it yesterday. He said he's powered it on and off at least 40 times but can't reproduce the problem. He's going to give it another week or two of testing to see if he can get it to act up but he doesn't sound very convinced that he's going to be able to duplicate the problem.

Here's my dilemma. If he can't get it it to act up he's going to send it back. I'm going to hook it up and within a week I'm going to have the same problem again! Then what?

Tony told me I might have to live with the intermittent problem until it fails permanently. I find that totally unacceptable! Any suggestions on how I should handle this situation if he can't reproduce the problem?

I'm getting close to abandoning Parasound all together and moving on to a manufacturer that offers better customer support. I do understand that they haven't been able to reproduce the problem when it's on their bench but I've reviewed the problem with two techs over and over to eliminate the problem being related to any other piece of equipment on my end. Both techs have agreed, based on my own troubleshooting and their suggestions, that the problem is in the amp. So why won't they just replace the damn thing?

This doens't bode well for Parasound support and service.

[Peter Nielsen]

I'm getting close to abandoning Parasound all together and moving on to a manufacturer that offers better customer support.

What manufacturer would that be?

Sometimes the Dealer can step in and puts some pressure on the manufacturer. Have you talked to your dealer? What do they say? Maybe they have a demo A51 that they could swap with you to see if the problem can be repeated (and to see if you still have a problem even with the other amp).

Moving on to another manufacturer is probably moot. You obviously need to move on to a better DEALER :roll:

Peter

[mitch57]

What manufacturer would that be?

Sometimes the Dealer can step in and puts some pressure on the manufacturer. Have you talked to your dealer? What do they say? Maybe they have a demo A51 that they could swap with you to see if the problem can be repeated (and to see if you still have a problem even with the other amp).

Moving on to another manufacturer is probably moot. You obviously need to move on to a better DEALER :roll:

Peter

Point taken. But I just got off the phone with my dealer and he's going to step in before Parasound ships it back to me. He hasn't indicated what he's going to say to Parasound but I suggested that he hold off on talking to Parasound until they've had the amp for at least a week.

I want to give Parasound every opportunity to make good on the situation. I'm hoping that the problem manifests itself while they have it in their possession.

As far as another dealer goes.... Good luck! There are none in my area. There's Speaker Lab in Seattle, WA which is 75 miles from my home and where I bought the amp. There's also another custom installer in my area that I've looked into before but since they have very poor service and support I wouldn't even consider them. I know this from personal experience as well as other customers who have had issues with them. Other then that I'm SOL for Parasound dealers. I believe Chris bought his from "The Good Guys" who are now out of business.

I just want to enjoy music and movies on my system. Unfortunately my system is crippled without my amp and it appears that this is going to be a very long and drawn out process.

Enough whining for today. I'm sure I'll have plenty more to whine about in another week on this issue.

[Peter Nielsen]

Point taken. But I just got off the phone with my dealer and he's going to step in before Parasound ships it back to me.

Good. Let's hope that makes a difference :T

FWIW, I got all my Parasound stuff from Brent Huskins. When the surround channels of my six month old C2 went dead after the v5.80 software upgrade, he obviously pulled some strings and Parasound exchanged my C2 for a brand new one in only two or three days. Excellent customer service!

Peter

[Micke.H]

Mitch57 . How are things going ?
Im gonna send mine to service soon...
Micke

[tboooe]

I had some issues with my A21 and even though Tony Pointes was trying to be as helpful as possible he said the same thing to me: "If we cant recreate your intermittent problem we will send it back to you". Like you Mitch I found this unacceptable. So I had to get Richard Schram involved. Eventually I got them to ship me a new unit. No problems ever since.

[mitch57]

Mitch57 . How are things going ?
Im gonna send mine to service soon...
Micke

Not good! Parasound had it for over two weeks and couldn't duplicate the problem. I had them send it back to my dealer in Seattle and they have it now and have done some testing but haven't found anything wrong with it upt to this point.

However, the dealer said he found another problem with it. He said he would set the volume level to a certain level (I suspect low level. He gave me 50 as an example on his Integra receiver which was hooked up the A51.) and he said the amp just shuts off. Doesn't trip the overload/overheat circuits just shuts off. I immediately told him he probably had the trigger switch set to "Audio Sensing" to turn on the amp. He said he would check it today but I haven't heard from him. He also said he called Parasound to report the problem but they were closed so he left a message. He was suppose to call me today and let me know what he found out. But he never called.

tboooe,

Who is Richard Schram and how did you get him involved to get you a new amp? I've about had it with both Parasound and my dealer at this point because I'm not getting any action on their end to remedy the situation. Could you point me in the right direction to get my amp replaced?

Thanks in advance!

[tboooe]

Mitch, Richard Schram is the president of Parasound. I believe his email is richard@parasound.com. Alternatively you can try Paul Brownlee (paul@parasound.com). I am not sure of his title but he appears to be a pretty high level person there. I have dealt with both and they are VERY helpful. I just factually explained my situation, expressed my frustration, and plainly stated that I very much liked my Halo product and wanted to keep it but the technical issues were making me very wary of ever buying another Halo product. They both responded very quickly. I got another amp sent that same day and as well as call tag for my current amp so that I would have to pay for return shipment to Parasound. I hope this helps. Let me know how its goes. I will be happy to help in any way I can.

[mitch57]

I will send him an email right now. I will let you know how it all turns out. Thanks for the information. I really appreciate it.