How is the current C2 different from the current Titan platform

[JamesE]

I'm very discussed with the HD world and HD politics. :M I’ve been following the development of the new format off and on for years. The new software upgrade added the plxII that I have been waiting for. With 8 new cables I could do away with HDMI 1.3 altogether. I mainly watch movies and music videos. Not have analog bypass on all of the channels is not a big deal. I would rather have the bass management

How is the current C2 different from the current Titan platform on Vinci Labs web site? Are the added processors mainly for EQ? Will the C2 have the processing power to decode HD audio formats sent over the HDMI 1.3 cable with the addition of an add-on board for hooking up the HDMI cable and a software upgrade? Audioholics review didn’t like the DTS 96/24 decoded as 48 kHz instead of 96 kHz. Is this a big deal or 3 out of 10 guys sitting around saying “Yes, I heard a difference!”?

[Chris D]

I think it would be "worthwhile" for us Parasound enthusiasts to keep an eye on the progression of the Titan platform by Vinci Labs. For those who don't know, this is the company that evolved from Flextronics Design Finland, who produced the original components in the Halo C1 and C2.

The new Titan platform is Generation 7, which if you look at the info, is really not too different from the current capabilities of the C1, C2, and 7100. Here's the Vinci Labs website and two pdf files about the Gen 7 platform.

http://www.vincilabs.com

http://www.vincilabs.com/pdf/Gen7Brochure.pdf

http://www.vincilabs.com/pdf/TitanPlatfrom.pdf

Should Parasound upgrade these models to Gen 7, or create a new pre/pro based on this platform? Ummmm... hmmm. If you're going for the best and the latest, sure. It's got a couple things that are on my wish list, such as HDMI switching and video transcoding. The "future room correction EQ" sounds intruiging, too.

However, for me, I'd focus on the capabilities of C1/C2/7100 upgrades or a new model to do two things: (1) input and process HDMI audio, and (2) process the new high-def sound formats to come out such as DTS-HD and DD+.

Perhaps we should wait for the next Titan platform release (Gen 8?) or whatever is capable of these two things before Parasound does a hardware upgrade or new model release?

Of course, none of this is to say that if Parasound released a Gen 7 hardware upgrade today, that I'd rush out to be first in line!

[JamesE]

I'll try to refine my question. Does the C1, C2 use the Generation 7 DSP board or the Generation 6 DSP board? Not that it matters all that much because they say that the Generation 7 is a plugin replacement for the Generation 6.

Somewhere I read that the format in which the digital signal is sent is dac specific. I take this to mean that the the new DTS HD and True HD will be different from PCM and thus require new dacs. The Vinci web site states the dacs are replacable.

I don't care about the HDMI switching, video transcoding either. The room eq would be nice but if it's going to cost a lot extra like in Lexacon's case, I can live without it. What I do care about is being able to upgrade to the new HD formats through HDMI. Does it take a new Titan board to add HDMI. Is the Titan board currently used in the C1, C2 capable of being upgraded to HDMI or is it just the current "Upgraded Titan" board or are they the same thing? I am assuming that the HDMI port will be connected to the Titan board and then the signal sent to the Generation 7 board for processing.

Or am I misunderstanding something? Is there only one board?

[Chris D]

The C1 and C2 do not have the Gen 7 Titan platform. It's a previous version, but whether it's specifically Gen 6 or something even before that, I don't know. (my hunch would be that it IS Gen 6)

Other than that, you know as much as I do. (as well as the rest of us here in Club Parasound, methinks) What I'd recommend for specific details on the Titan platform is to contact Vinci Labs direct through the information on their website above. They have an office in Boulder, Colorado that you can call. They will be able to tell you what the Gen 6 and Gen 7 platforms are capable of, as well as if a future Gen 8 will be required for the capabilities that you're talking about. (future HD audio input through HDMI and internal processing as I understand your question)

Post back about what they tell you! We're curious!

[JamesE]

I put a call into a Parasound dealer. He said he would call Parasound on Monday and get back to me. I'm very surprised that there are not more technical people on this forum or Parasound dealers. The issue of HDMI audio has been out there for years. Isn’t it a question that everyone buying a $4,000+ preamp is asking? Scratch that-- everyone buying a $1,000+ preamp is asking?

[Chris D]

James, actually, I think all of you would be amazed of the people that tell me that they "lurk" on this board, monitoring our discussions and wishes, without becoming involved and posting in an official/unofficial fashion. It would be tough for some industry leaders to take part in discussions without giving away company secrets, divulging private information, appearing to promise something that can't be delivered, stating an opinion on something where it is better to remain neutral for business purposes, etc.

As always, the OFFICIAL source of info has to come directly from the companies themselves like Parasound and Vinci Labs, of course. Just curious--is there a reason you don't want to call them direct? As much as I'd like to be able to answer everybody's questions here by making the phone calls and asking myself, I just am not always able to do it, (especially when I'm on extended trips outside of the country) and really, it's often no better than our members calling themselves.

For dealers, we also actually have quite a few that monitor our board, and several that are also club members. The only thing with dealers, is that HTGuide really can't permit outside companies to advertise their sales here--we'd like to keep this a discussion club, not a Turkish marketplace bazaar. But any dealers that WOULD like to advertise are more than welcome to contact the forum owner and become a sponsor! That's what Brent Huskins did of Media Design, and he gives probably the best deal on Parasound gear around, as well as good product info that he picks up.

Back to your last question, YES, YES, YES!!!!! We ALL are dying for info on the HDMI evolution, and ESPECIALLY how it is being incorporated more into Parasound in the future. That's why anything you can find out, we're dying to hear about! Please share!

[JamesE]

I didn't call Vinci labs direct because I didn't think they would give me any information. I'm sure they don't want Parasounds customers calling them for information.

I don't have a # for Parasound--they don't list it on the web site. So, I figured the next best thing was to call a dealer. If anyone should have a good contact with Parasound, a dealer should. If you give me there # I'll call on Monday after I hear back from the dealer if the dealers answer is not suffcient.

[JamesE]

"James, actually, I think all of you would be amazed of the people that tell me that they "lurk" on this board"

191 views of this thread and you and I are the only ones talkin--naw, I wouldn't be amazed.

[Chris D]

Sure, I can help with contact info. Parasound's contact information can be readily found on their website www.parasound.com The link labeled "Contacting Parasound" is right at the bottom of their homepage.

We also have a "sticky" discussion thread that is always at the top of Club Parasound with all contact information for Parasound and their public relations company. (hmmm...maybe I should add Vinci Labs to that thread) The thread is titled "Parasound contact information".

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=6969

[slayer]

You have to remember that most Parasound dealers buy from distributors. Myself included. Halo is similar. You are direct, but you go through a Rep Firm. So when I have a question, it goes to them. I don't call Parasound directly. I have contacted Parasound by email and they were quick to get back to me and answered all my questions. You could try that as well.

[JamesE]

I emailed Parasound directly. Here is what I wrote:

I am in the market for a new pre amp. The Parasound C2 is at the top of my list.



My biggest hesitation with buying a C2 is not knowing what Parasound plans to do as far as the new HD audio format is concerned. I have read the material on Vinci’s web site. Here are my questions:



1 Does Parasound plan on upgrading existing C1, C2’s with a HDMI 1.3 connection? Does it take a new Titan board to add HDMI to the C1, C2? Is the Titan board currently used in the C1, C2 capable of being upgraded to HDMI or is it just the current "Upgraded Titan" board or are they the same thing? I am assuming that the HDMI port will be connected to the Titan board and then the signal sent to the Generation 7 board for processing.

2 Does the C1, C2 use the Generation 7 DSP board or the Generation 6 DSP board?



Are the Gen x DSP boards plug-in replaceable in the C1, C2? Somewhere I read that the format in which the digital signal is sent is dac specific. I take this to mean that the new DTS HD and True HD will be different from PCM and thus require new dacs. The Vinci web site states the dacs are replaceable. Will the Gen 7 DSP board need to be replaced to decode DTS HD and True HD.



Thank you,

Here is what they replied:

Hi Jim;

Thank you for your email.



1) According to HDMI there is no such thing as a 1.3 standard. We are not allowed to discuss it or speculate about it. This comes directly from HDMI's lawyers.



2) We don't have a public statement on what our next generation of processors will be as of yet. In the past all forward looking statements we made came back to bite us so we've stopped making them.

I do understand your need for information but the ongoing development of new models is moving so quickly that speculation or pre-announcements are no longer wise. While we understand that this might cost us some sales we always want to honest in our communications and do to development times and changes in technology, the types of statements that we made in previous years seem unwise at this time.


Regards,

Paul C.Brownlee

Parasound

paul@parasound.com

[J.H.]

Interesting it sound like they are working on something but won't say anything about it. What ever it is it will be incredible from Parasound we all know that. J.H.

[Chris D]

Yikes, that's disappointing that there wasn't more "meat" to the answers there.

But yes, perhaps the silver lining is that there does seem to be hints of something great to come.

[JamesE]

I also got a reply from Richard Schram. I have highlighted his responses just for readability.

Hi Jim,

Thank you for your inquiry.
The C 2 remains at the top of the market for quality and customer satisfaction.
Please see my replies below:
My biggest hesitation with buying a C2 is not knowing what Parasound plans to do as far as the new HD audio format is concerned. I have read the material on Vinci's web site. Here are my questions:



1 Does Parasound plan on upgrading existing C1, C2's with a HDMI 1.3
connection? Does it take a new Titan board to add HDMI to the C1, C2? Is the Titan board currently used in the C1, C2 capable of being upgraded to HDMI or is it just the current "Upgraded Titan" board or are they the same thing? I am assuming that the HDMI port will be connected to the Titan board and then the signal sent to the Generation 7 board for processing.
The HDMI situation is a bit unsettled; we do not have any announcement for decoding HDMI audio for C 1 and C 2.
2 Does the C1, C2 use the Generation 7 DSP board or the Generation 6
DSP board?
It uses the Gen6, which is a proven and bulletproof design.


Are the Gen x DSP boards plug-in replaceable in the C1, C2? Somewhere I read that the format in which the digital signal is sent is dac specific. I take this to mean that the new DTS HD and True HD will be different from PCM and thus require new dacs. The Vinci web site states the dacs are replaceable. Will the Gen 7 DSP board need to be replaced to decode DTS HD and True HD.
The Gen6 won't accomodate the wide bandwidth audio formats via HDMI. We do not know Vinci's actual status with the Gen 7.

Kind regards,
Richard Schram
Parasound

All I have to say is that it must be more difficult for the manufacturers than it is for we consumers waiting for whoever to set the HDMI standards. I'll look forward to what they come up with and be happy with what I have until this gets all ironed out.

[kfr01]

Yeah, huh, with the impending changes coming I may hold off on any buying.

I have to say, the AV industry as a whole seem to continue to shoot itself in the foot with the ever changing standards war. Talk about making things as user and buyer -unfriendly- as possible.

That said, I highly respect conservative companies that aren't willing to sacrifice quality for a few extra sales based on the feature set du jour. Parasound and Bryston come to mind.

Thanks for posting the e-mail James.

[Chris D]

Thanks, James, that's some good info from Richard.

Karl, I agree, the industry is really holding itself back.

[JamesE]

It has been almost one year since I posted this thread. I still haven’t upgraded my preamp and am still waiting to see what is going to happen with the new HD formats. Any hints as to when the HD sound formats will start showing up in Blue-ray and HD-DVD?

[Chris D]

Well, the new HD sound formats are already there in BD and HD-DVD. In regards to processors, I still don't know of any that can actually decode the formats. So the only option right now for the new HD audio is to buy a player that can decode, and then send the audio to your processor either via multichannel analog or PCM over HDMI. So we're almost there, but not quite yet.

[avddreamr]

Gen 7 is a drop in replacement for Gen 6... rather nice.

One thing, how come everyone and there mother is making a huge deal about hdmi 1.3....
Both High Definition formats will never support Deep Color.
All Protected Discs on either of the formats require the "high-def" source player to do decoding internally.... then either pass linear pcm (hdmi 1.2a) for all chanells, or dac it and send to your pre/pro/reciever

I'd like to see room correction to at least the caliber that my 7 year old car audio processor does (105 bands of PEQ, time correction ect). DSP processing is cheap now a days...

But honestly if there is an upgrade.... its going to be a tough sell.. b/c I'm certain its going to come attached to an unreasonable price tag 2k ect. (re anthem d1--->d2 )

But if You are LIstening Parasound...... : here it goes...

If you're going to do room correction, do it right, or frankly don't bother...
I don't want to pay for a gimic that I'm just going to turn off.

I don't care about hdmi 1.3... I wont have a source that can output deep color, until they come out with another hidef format. I cant use natively decoded hirez formats... b/c the bean counters in hollywood love their illusion of protection, so linear pcm it is. Hdmi 1.2a will work fine for fine.
I mean, I have all of two dvd-audio discs...
(i have 30 hdvd movies.. thanks to the xbox 360).

Chris: Aren't you starting to suspect there wont be an upgrade at this point?
Other companies have already released upgrades for their products.... (re: anthem), or have announced their hdmi compliant products.... or did parasound finally throw in the towell.

Nes

[Chris D]

Absolutely, Nes. All along, Parasound has been non-committal about whether they would be upgrading the hardware in their processors. More than once, in our conversations, they've mentioned that at some point they need to focus on the next replacement for the processors.

I don't think we can be sure of one way or another, but at this point, my own personal private guess is that we'll see a replacement, not upgrade.

[psychdoc]

This is the most interesting parasound thread in months... good reading. Thanks all.

[avddreamr]

Absolutely, Nes. All along, Parasound has been non-committal about whether they would be upgrading the hardware in their processors. More than once, in our conversations, they've mentioned that at some point they need to focus on the next replacement for the processors.

I don't think we can be sure of one way or another, but at this point, my own personal private guess is that we'll see a replacement, not upgrade.

Yep, a replacement... and it should be pretty interesting what angle they take.
B/c the competition is fierce....

Correct me if I'm wrong... You can pick up a thx select2 reciever for 1500 retail? Now what does that mean.. the way I understand it.. the key difference between a thx select2 reciever and ultra2, is the amplifier section.
If thats what your measuring right?

So to justify the 4k/ or 6k its going to take more than a built in lcd (it is pimp though)? Hopefully it will continue to bring parasounds tradition of bringing true hifi performance at a midfi price.

So what are we seeing at true hifi? Ok maybe they'll do something akin to the lexicon mc-12hd...if you're going to give me fake balanced connections... for the love of god give me a choice if I want to bite into audiophile nonsense.

So hey lets start making the wish list... maybe they will listen...

Obviously... I want hdmi... give me 5 or 6 inputs and two outputs.
Remember to allow to me to combine a digital audio input with hdmi video b/c I might just be giving you dvi converted to hdmi

Speaking of digital audio inputs, give me a bunch. Don't forget to throw in a ethernet jack so I can link up to my computer, or hell an ipod cable while your at it. But definately give me at least 6 conventional digital input coax/optical.
And throw in a firewire connector. Remember I still want you to decode HDCD, along with every other format under the sun. Do it natively even if aacss won't allow protected (re: some blue ray discs, and nearly all hd dvds) to be decoded in the reciever.

If you are going to give me room eq... like i said get it right.
Don't bother researching it ... just link up with Audessy pro, and call it a day.

Make sure that the unit processes at 192khz through and through... and this time if possible make it modular. So if the studios decide that they don't have enough copy protection because some 12 year old in denmark cracked the last batch accs.... I'm not left with a paper weight when spiderman 5 makes it to beta-ray.



Leave additional dsp upgradability as you can charge us for more features as time goes on to prolong the life of the model. Atleast until the next major change.

Be forward thinking... thx is trying to ram 10 channels down our throats.


In all seriousness.... as much as I love your products. Make sure you can match the significant features of a top tier receiver, with a significantly better analog stage. I love your silver curved aluminum chassis, and your glowing blue eyes, but keep up the tradition and make sure there is substantial value inside that wonderful aluminum case.

When you decide to release your next universal... SA-Blue-Ray-Hd-DVD-CD player.... please try to do it well before the next format finally comes out.



By the time you release it... i'll have the most important aspect of my system basically done... try to be a good match for my orions.. thats all i ask


nes

[JamesE]

Will the C2 will process the new HD audio formats through the analog inputs? Using the analog inputs should give the same sound quality as HDMI 1.3 HD?

[Chris D]

Nes, good stuff, what you need to do is add that stuff to our Parasound wish list, which is a "sticky" thread at the top of the club!

James, the C1/C2/7100 will play ANYTHING that you send to it via the analog multichannel inputs, including the new HD audio formats, SACD, DVD-A, WMVHD, etc. If you want something that HAS to be future-proof, that's pretty much it, to go with multichannel analogs.

Does they give the "same" quality as HDMI 1.3? Can't say for sure, as STILL no setup exists with 1.3 between player and receiver/processor that I know of. But the guess would have to be NO, as with the analog plugs, you have to do D/A conversion early, then might have a **little** sound degradation. That's the whole point of 1.3, to keep everything digital as long as possible.

Just to point out, with the C1/C2/7100, they don't do any processing on the multichannel analogs. Only straight pass-through. So they're a very, very good option, but not perfect. That's why we're wondering about upgrades.

[JamesE]

I haven’t really thought about getting a new preamp for about a year now and it’s all starting to come back to me. As I remember the downside of using a C2 with the new HD formats is that no processing could be done with the C2. If the movie was produced in 5.1 that is all that you would get unless the HD player had some way of creating the back 2 channels. All base management and speaker settings would have to be done in the HD player. Basically the C2 would just be a volume control. Do I have this right?

[Chris D]

Pretty much. (you could use y-plugs if you really wanted to, to send a side surround signal to both the side and rear surround channels)

[JamesE]

So multi channel SACD can only be straight bypass with the C2? Sorry if this is a redundant question.

[JamesE]

This thread over at the AVS forum is excellent. “Advanced content” is discussed. If “advanced content” is adopted, a certain amount of the processing will always be done in HD player. If you haven’t heard about this, you should read this thread.

I think that when Parasound puts out a new preamp they should incorporate a HD player into the preamp. Most of the HD player is duplicated by the preamp—the case, power supply, outputs, speaker setup, base management, dacs, processors, royalties, etc. About the only thing that isn’t duplicated is disk reader itself. In addition to all of this, one would not have to buy cables to hook up a HD player.