Parasound needs to move on HDMI input

[Dr Plaid]

I am a custom installer/system designer/programmer who has a C2/A52 that I got when I was with a custom shop in Los Angeles. I have been sitting around waiting for Parasound to do something with that expansion port on the back and it seems to me that it is perfect for a HDMI input.

This new ZHD should have two outputs. One to go to the display device and one to go into the C1/C2. How simple is that? I would really like to think that Parasound (or Vinci Labs) will provide a HDMI upgrade to the C1/C2/Titan so that it will keep up with the rest of the world.

I understand that they have wisely waited for the HDMI 1.3 standard to be finalized to include hi-rez multichannel audio. Now that it has, it only makes sense to use it to bring SACD/DVD-A and any other future hi-rez audio into these processors digitally so time alignment and digital bass management will finally work for 5.1 inputs. If Parasound does not do this within the next year or so, I will have to move on to something else. I love my C2 but the rest of the world is moving on.

[Chris D]

Hear, hear, Dr. Plaid. I've long advocated digital multi-channel high-res audio input to the C1/C2/7100 for decoding, such as through HDMI. Hopefully with the standardization of HDMI 1.3 we'll see something.

Me too, I understand Parasound needing to wait on this until 1.3 came out.

One thing they could do would be two HDMI jacks in the expansion port, one IN and one OUT. So the Zhd could be used as a switcher, then send HDMI from the Zhd to the C1/C2/7100, then out from the C1/C2/7100 to the video display. (the purpose of this would be that the expansion port doesn't have enough space to be a large switcher itself, but we would still have high-res HDMI audio input to the C1/C2/7100. There's enough room for one in and one out)

Welcome to the Guide and Club Parasound! :banana:

[Chetk]

I think this is one hot topic already on this forum. Many people are saying the same thing.

I hope Richard and company are listening. :dudes:

[Chris D]

Again, to be fair, I'll point out that since HDMI 1.3 is just now coming out, and HD-DVD and Blu-Ray still haven't been released, NO PROCESSOR on the market today currently accepts all high-res audio formats by HDMI (DD, SACD, DVD-A, DD+, DTS-HD, etc) and does decoding.

We're just talking about the direction that we'd like to see Parasound products go in the future.

[Chetk]

I agree, but I also thing that the HDMI switcher is going to be Parasounds ONLY answer/solution to that future.

And to also be fair, we aren't talking about the "direction that we'd like to see Parasound products go in the future." We're talking about the direction that we'd like to see the C1 and C2 go in the future.

As much as I like the Parasound product, I don't know if I'll buy another if they don't utilize the expansion port in the C1/C2's. Why even bother including it if you're never going to use it for anything?

[JamesE]

I understand that they have wisely waited for the HDMI 1.3 standard to be finalized to include hi-rez multichannel audio. Now that it has,

I didn't know that it has been finalized. Do you have a link?

[Peter Nielsen]

I don't know if I'll buy another if they don't utilize the expansion port in the C1/C2's. Why even bother including it if you're never going to use it for anything?

Maybe becase it is part of the Titan Platform? I think you need to blame the engineers at Vinci Labs for focussing on a brand new Titan platform instead of developing extensions to their previous platform. Parasound just "packages" their product in a neat box...

Peter

[Chetk]

Either way, I'm sure Richard has some pull over at Vinci Labs. After all, he's repackaging their product.

[Chris D]

Hmmm... I thought I remembered seeing that the Zhd was compliant with HDMI 1.3. Was that only 1.2?

[Dr Plaid]

I thought that HDMI 1.3 was the current version that supports hi-rez audio but apparently it's 1.2a. I don't know what is going to be different in 1.3 but I hope the ZHD supports it.

[JamesE]

From what I have read over on the AVS forum 1.3 isn't due out for maybe 1-2 more years and will most likely require a hardware upgrade but, no one knows for sure because 1.3 is not out yet.

[Chris D]

(sigh) Okay, time for me to do more research.

(tucks books under arms and shuffles off toward the virtual library)

[JamesE]

Here is a quote from MCode over on AVS Forum:

Keep in mind...
1080p is available today over HDMI 1.1..
HDMI 1.2 essentially delivered SACD but now with Sony pulling out of SACD and increasing their efforts/resources for Blu Ray..
They are abandoning any future support for SACD..

DD+ and DTS HD decoding within the HD DVD and Blu Ray players is almost done and certified.. Key issue for HD DVD and Blu Ray is HD source material and the studios are saying up to 20-50 releases mid-2006 and >100 by end of 2006...

DD+ and DTS HD (True Master) full decoding within the AVR/Preamp/Processor is still 1 year out..
Here new significant hardward upgrades are required..(my comment--this is HDMI 1.3 he is refering to)
However neither DVD HD or Blu Ray players brands can start mass production of players until the content protection issues of
AACS (Advanced Access Content System)..
and Mandatory Managed Copy are settled..
This will take more time to reach a settlement..

"DD+ and DTS HD (True Master) full decoding within the AVR/Preamp/Processor is still 1 year out.. Here new significant hardware upgrades are required." This what I want and I find it hard to believe that it is not what everyone on this forum wants.


Many people seem to talk about HDMI in a generic sense. If you read about HDMI and PCM in the same reference then they are not talking about the true HD audio. Why buy a $4--6,000 pre-amp to let a HD player do limited bass management for you?

We have professionals promoting HDMI with built in obsolescence creating hype for their products. Much to Parasounds credit they have not jumped on this bandwagon, however, I wish they would make some clear statement of their future upgrade policy and support for existing products.

[Chris D]

Hmmmm... I find it odd that DD+ and DTS HS decoding within HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players is "almost done and certified". With players already starting to hit the market, shouldn't this be long-since resolved? If it's not even set in players yet, what chance do manufacturers have of incorporating it into processors?

[kfr01]

None. Manufacturers must either pick one or support both. Either option drives up cost for us. I blame Sony. They continue to champion inferior proprietary technologies in the name of copy protection and selling their own hardware.

[JamesE]

I find the whole situation insane. They have been working on this since 2000, maybe before that.

[JamesE]

Here's an article from Ultimate AV I just ran across:




Update On HDMI And the Next-Gen Formats
By Shane C. Buettner


February 5, 2006 — If you've been reading UAV's reviews you know that while 1080p displays are proliferating, the ability of these displays to actually accept a 1080p native signal is a rarity. And if you've been following our coverage of the next-gen disc formats you also know that DTS and Dolby have cooked up new audio formats that aren't based on the lossy compression schemes we've been living with on DVD for years. All of these developments are intertwined with the HDMI specs, as HDMI will be the carrier for both 1080p video and the new audio codecs. Here's the latest on what it all means.

HDMI specs have indeed continued to evolve. According to the HDMI Licensing LLC, version 1.2a was complete just before CES, and version 1.3 is anticipated to be locked down in the first half of this year. Despite speculation in some corners that only the most recent versions of the HDMI spec support 1080p, HDMI Licensing 's Leslie Chard informed me that all versions of the HDMI spec support 1080p video at 60Hz. It is up to the manufacturers of displays and other HDMI compliant devices to include support for 1080p throughout the architecture of the piece- the HDMI receivers, video decoders, video D-A converters, and all the video processing involved must support 1080p throughout. Given that 1080p sources aren't yet on the market, many display manufacturers seemingly have chosen not to absorb the expense in developing 1080p architectures throughout their displays.

Regarding when we're going to see 1080p, HD DVD's representative have indicated to me that at least the format's initial releases will be 1080i, not 1080p. Blu-ray titles however, have been specified in press releases as 1080p. We'll see. Given how few displays can accept 1080p native, and the specter of down-rez'd analog outputs haunts both formats, it's uncertain how the many people without 1080p native-compatible displays will get such a signal off of the discs that carry it. The processing involved in converting 1080p to 1080i seems extensive, and I've received no word as to whether players from either format will support such a provision- a provision that seems critically necessary for a good number of early adopters.

Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS' DTS-HD are the next-gen audio codecs that will be offered with HD DVD and Blu-ray. Both Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD will have backward-compatible core 5.1-channel soundtracks imbedded in their signals that can be carried over standard S/PDIF digital interfaces and decoded by the current generation DTS and Dolby Digital decoders in our AVRs and surround processors. Both formats are scalable and will offer much higher data rates than the current lossy formats, and both DTS and Dolby are offering full lossless compression formats with bit-for-bit reconstruction. Dolby's TrueHD uses Meridian Lossless Packing , while DTS' lossless format is the proprietary DTS-HD Master Audio. On HD DVD and Blu-ray both codecs will boast lossless coding for up to eight discrete channels of audio at resolution at least as high as 24-bit/96kHz. The catch is that the new codecs will only be carried digitally in their native form over HDMI 1.3.

This raises obvious questions given that HD DVD players are due in stores next month, while the HDMI 1.3 spec is due only for the first half of 2006. Blu-ray players are also targeted for the first half of '06, and the announcements we've seen for players indicate April to June. How can players incorporate a spec that isn't complete? Ditto goes for any HDMI-compatible surround processor released before the HDMI 1.3 spec is done.

Advisor to the Toshiba HD DVD Group Mark Knox offered a few potential answers. One, he intimated at CES 2006 that it's most likely that the initial HD DVD releases will have current standard DTS and Dolby Digital soundtracks, but at the highest data rates possible (DVDs usually run at lower audio rates to save more bits for the video transfer). Also, six channel analog outputs will be provided on the players, which could be used with the analog multichannel pass-through connectors found on many current AVRs and surround processors.

Going further, Knox also noted that HD DVD players will have the ability to "transcode" the new high-res Dolby and DTS formats to PCM, which can then be carried over the current HDMI spec and should be compatible with a number of current HDMI compatible surround processors and AVRs. Some Blu-ray titles have also been announced as carrying uncompressed digital audio soundtracks as well, which most likely means uncompressed PCM. HD DVD is also spec'd to carry up to eight discrete channels of uncompressed PCM at resolutions up to 24/96, while Blu-ray is spec'd to go all the way up to 24/192.

Knox also informed me that HD DVD players will be software updateable, but it is not yet known for certain that updating to HDMI 1.3 will be a software switch or whether new hardware will be required. All of this news, and the recent revelation that the AACS copy protection scheme to be used by both formats was just completed in the last couple of weeks, raises the question of whether either of these formats is fully complete and ready for prime time. Is the rush to market for both formats increasing the possibility that early adopters may not be able to take advantage of all the new features the new formats promise?

These questions and many others will be answered in the coming months. All we know for now is that it's dicey time to be buying a new disc player or a new surround sound processor or AVR, and formats themselves aren’t likely to be only points of confusion facing consumers as HD DVD and Blu-ray come to market.