Parasound information about HDMI and the C1/C2/7100

**JamesE** · 05 January 2006, 19:41 Thursday

How will the Zhd output the HDMI audio signal to the C1/C2? Is there enough bandwidth in an optical or digital cable?

**CP-Mike** · 05 January 2006, 19:46 Thursday

No, I think all it does is switch between inputs and send the signal on to your display. The C1/C2/7100 will tell it when to switch, but that's the only connection between the two boxes. So this means no upconversion to HDMI, and you'll still need a "regular" composite/s-video/component connection between the C1/C2/7100 and your display if you want to see the OSD.

**JamesE** · 05 January 2006, 19:54 Thursday

What is OSD?

So for example a new Blue Ray player will send the video out via HDMI and the audio out by a digital cable? If so will the digital cable from the BlueRay player have enough bandwidth to handel the high resolution audio formats?

Thanks,

Jim

**JamesE** · 05 January 2006, 20:17 Thursday

This is an article that I ran across last year. If I understand it correctly, a digital connection will be available on the HD DVD and BlueRay players but in a lower resolution. The C1/C2 has 7.1 analog inputs but bypasses any internal DSP. So without HDMI inputs to the C1/C2 we either have to accept a low resolution signal or bypass any internal DSP. Am I understanding this correctly? If I am, this sucks!

"More Compatibility Seen Between HD Discs, Existing Audio Systems

By Joseph Palenchar -- TWICE, 9/26/2005

NEW YORK — Many consumers who already own an A/V receiver or preamp processor will have more options than previously thought to reproduce the highest bandwidth multichannel soundtracks of Blu-ray and HD DVD discs without junking their current components, Dolby Labs said.

Taking many in the industry by surprise, Dolby announced that consumers will be able to stream all of the discs' mandatory and optional high-bandwidth soundtracks through a receiver's single-cable HDMI 1.1 digital input from many of the new players. Initially, Dolby and receiver manufacturers believed that the only option for owners of existing receivers would be to connect multiple analog-audio cables between the receiver and player to hear the full potential of the high-bandwidth soundtracks.

HDMI 1.1's ability to connect players and receivers, said Dolby Labs technology strategy director Roger Dressler, means “one less impediment to buying the new players,” especially for consumers who have connected the analog outputs of SACD and DVD-Audio players into their receivers' multichannel analog inputs. Although the soundtrack-carrying HDMI outputs aren't mandatory on high-definition disc players, he noted, it's likely that the players will have them.

A single-HDMI connection will be possible, Dressler explained, because in all but perhaps the most basic players, all of the multichannel audio formats on a high-definition disc will be converted to PCM before exiting a player's HDMI output. HDMI 1.1's bandwidth is capable of simultaneously streaming an HD player's video and a high-bandwidth soundtrack, and HDMI 1.1 inputs appear on many newer receivers and processors, all of which are already equipped to process PCM, Dolby pointed out.

The optional and mandatory soundtrack formats of the high-definition disc formats were announced last year, but Dolby and other industry insiders didn't learn until much later that the high-definition players would likely spit out PCM.

PCM conversion will be needed in disc players that support the ability to play Internet-streamed audio content, such as director's comments, while discs are playing, Dressler said. To accomplish that, the players must mix a disc's soundtrack with the Internet stream, and to accomplish that, the players will convert the two streams to PCM. The players might also internally generate PCM sounds that would have to be mixed in as well, he said.

Although PCM conversion within a player isn't mandatory, it is “the most practical way that the next-generation disc players achieve these new interactive features.” Dolby said in a statement. “Content makers are keen for it [mixing]”, Dressler added. “So we expect they will want mixing to happen.”

Like most industry insiders, Dressler continued, "I don't think we understood that mixing would be a substitute for decoding downstream."

Even if mixing doesn't happen in a player, downstream decoding in an A/V receiver through a single-cable connection could be an option when new HDMI 1.3 specifications are finalized later this year. HDMI 1.3 connections could appear in first-generation Blu-ray and HD DVD players, marketers said. The 1.3 outputs would be able to stream the mandatory and optional soundtrack formats in their native form to future A/V receivers that would internally decode the high-bandwidth soundtracks.

The high-bandwidth formats include multichannel uncompressed PCM, lossless Dolby TrueHD, lossy Dolby Digital Plus, and lossy and lossless forms of DTS HD, formerly DTS++ Lossless.

Although Dolby will initially focus on selling its high-bandwidth decoders into high-definition players, DTS said it will aggressively target players and receivers. DTS cited the precedent of high-end A/V receivers to use 1394 digital inputs to accept DVD-Audio and SACD signals in the digital domain for processing. The receivers are marketed as offering superior decoding and processing.

“There could be different solutions to different-priced players,” Dressler added.

S/PDIF inadequate: HDMI in whatever flavor is the way to get high-definition players to spit out wideband soundtrack formats in digital form, Dolby said. That's because the bandwidths of the players' uncompressed-PCM formats, new lossless-compression formats and new lossy-compression formats exceed the capabilities of existing receivers' single-cable digital S/PDIF inputs, which max out at 1.5Mbps. The data rates of the new soundtrack formats can run as high as 27.6Mbps.

For receivers lacking HDMI inputs, consumers would have to hook up six to eight analog cables if their receiver is equipped with multiple analog inputs. If their receiver lacks HDMI inputs and multiple analog inputs, consumers could opt to use the receiver's S/PDIF input to stream a disc's lower bandwidth mandatory multichannel formats, which squeeze through S/PDIF inputs and are compatible with receivers' existing 5.1-, 6.1- and 7.1-channel decoders.

The mandatory formats for Blu-ray discs are the Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS 5.1 legacy formats. For HD DVD, the mandatory formats are the new Dolby Digital Plus format up to 3Mbps and the new lossy HTS HD format. Dolby expects HD DVD players to incorporate built-in converters that will convert Dolby Digital Plus to 640kbps Dolby Digital 5.1 and lossy DTS HD to DTS 5.1 at up to 1.5Mbps.

Examples of the discs' S/PDIF-incompatible soundtracks include Blu-ray's optional six channels of uncompressed 192kHz/24-bit PCM at 27.6Mbps, HD DVD's two channels of 192/24 PCM at 9.2Mbps, and both discs' 7.1 channels of 96/24 PCM at 18.4Mbps, said Dolby.

The data rate of Dolby Digital Plus runs to 3Mbps on HD DVD and up to 1.7Mbps on Blu-ray discs in applications up to 7.1 channels.

Another Plus: Although the mandatory and optional high-bandwidth formats can deliver 7.1 discrete channels, owners of older HDMI-lacking receivers with 5.1-channel analog inputs won't be left out in the cold. Any lossy or losslessly compressed 7.1-channel soundtrack carries metadata allowing producers to control down mixes from seven channels to five for receivers with five analog inputs, said Dolby's Dressler. Uncompressed PCM tracks, however, lack metadata, so a player's down mixing isn't likely to “ensure a consistent result from player to player,” he noted"

**CP-Mike** · 05 January 2006, 21:02 Thursday

I don't know how it will handle audio, my comments were only regarding the video.

If I understand it correctly, a digital connection will be available on the HD DVD and BlueRay players but in a lower resolution. The C1/C2 has 7.1 analog inputs but bypasses any internal DSP. So without HDMI inputs to the C1/C2 we either have to accept a low resolution signal or bypass any internal DSP.

It wouldn't make sense for a player to output digital audio in any format other than the HDMI's native audio format. If a receiver/preamp/processor doesn't have HDMI inputs, it won't be able to decode the HD audio no matter what cord you use to connect it to the player. By providing digital out in the lower-rez formats (probably the same rez as the current format used by optical or coaxial digital connections), the players remain backwards-compatible with older equipment. The players would also provide analog outputs, thus doing the decoding themselves. You don't want it to go though DSP, because that would add another A/D/A step in the signal path, and would thus lower quality. If you're worried that the dacs in the player aren't as good as the one in your C1/C2/7100, and you're worried about the sound being inferior as a result, then buy a better player.

**JamesE** · 05 January 2006, 21:15 Thursday

If we don't use the DSP on the C1/C2 would we be able to use all of the 10 output channels?

**J.H.** · 05 January 2006, 21:17 Thursday

Also not to be too strict with the article but it does not mention the 7100 which is what I have. Should i be nervous about that? It really only mentions the C1/C2? J.H.

**CP-Mike** · 05 January 2006, 21:22 Thursday

If we don't use the DSP on the C1/C2 would we be able to use all of the 10 output channels?

Nope. Unfortunately, you can't have it all. Unless maybe you buy a much much more expensive processor. Or a receiver. They typically have better features than processors.

**JamesE** · 05 January 2006, 23:21 Thursday

I've been following this forum for a 1 1/2 years waiting to see how Parasound was going to support this upgrade to the next generation HD format. I like 99% of what I have heard and read about the C2. But this is a deal breaker for me. I want a new preamp but it would be crazy to buy one now that is not going to fully be compatable with the new HD format ie:a HDMI input. This is very disappointing.

**Chris D** · 06 January 2006, 01:31 Friday

J.H., no problem, the 7100 will implement HDMI in the exact same manner as the C1 and C2.

**Peter Nielsen** · 06 January 2006, 08:29 Friday

Originally posted by JamesE

What is OSD?

On Screen Display

Peter

**JamesE** · 06 January 2006, 11:26 Friday

"J.H., no problem, the 7100 will implement HDMI in the exact same manner as the C1 and C2."

Chris do you mean "no problem, the 7100 will not get an HDMI port hardware upgrade either!"

I can see where the external switching device is a good option for lots of people but not adding a HDMI port hardware upgrade to the C1/C2, and 7100 is just nothing less than leaving your customer base out in the cold.

Go back and re-read http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=6968 from a year ago today.

Customers want improved base management--with this Zhd option the new HD player gets to do the improved base management.

Customers want room correction software built in--what the new HD player is supposed to do this also. These things exist? Look at what Vinnci Labs has built into there Titan platform http://www.vincilabs.com/pdf/Gen7Brochure.pdf

Isn't this what Parasound is using? Without a HDMI port hardware upgrade the C1/C2, 7100 are just dinosaur's like a lot of other audio equipment. They are really nice dinosaur's but when you buy your new HD player and have to buy 8 additional cables to loose a bunch of exiting features on your processor, I don't think that it will leave people with a warm fussy feeling inside.

**Chris D** · 06 January 2006, 14:34 Friday

What I'm saying is that the 7100 will use HDMI in the same way that is being added to the C1 and C2--the external Zhd HDMI switcher that is controlled through the RS-232 port. Each owner will have to decide if this is the best option for them.

For my personal desires, you can see my posts in the "Parasound Wish List" thread that is sticky at the top of the Club page.

**JamesE** · 08 January 2006, 11:41 Sunday

I’ve been reading up on HDMI. The differences between HDMI 1.1 and HDMI 1.3 are so huge that I believe they should be called by two different names. HDMI 1.3 does not exist and is the vehicle by which the new HD players will be able to take the signal to the preamps. Optimistically, we are looking at 2 years for this to happen if the HDMI 1.3 standard is finalized by the end of this year.

My single biggest frustration with Parasound is that they do not define what they are going to upgrade in the future. Or do they have a commitment to supporting the installed customer base. This technology has been in development for over 5 years.

When this thread started I obviously did not understand that the technology to transmit HD audio to a preamp by means of HDMI cable does not exist. How many of you that have read this thread understand this? Was I the only one? It will come with HDMI 1.3.

One of the reasons that SACD failed is that consumers refused to go out and buy 6 cables to hook up the player. This is a big deal if your buy expensive cables. The purchase does not leave the consumer with a warm fussy feeling when he knows 1 digital cable could have been used and the digital processing could have been done by the expensive preamp we purchased thus allowing us to use the enhanced sound fields, or advanced base management, or the EQ that we have paid for, or all of the 10 output channels that come with the C1/C2. Now they want us to buy 8 cables instead of one!

The only reason to look at a preamp/receiver over $1,500 is because you want high quality sound. Parasound put you in the upper end of this statement but excludes you from the independently wealthy class.

I think that the real reason for HDMI 1.3 is so that the studios can move to an internet based pay per view system. All of the other internet interactivity and other enhancements are just a smoke screen for a pay per view system. What I’m interested in is the best audio that I can afford. I’m looking at a preamp as a long term investment, not something to be replaced every 2 or 3 years.

Here is a link that explains HDMI a little bit more. http://www.twice.com/article/CA6258006.html

**CP-Mike** · 08 January 2006, 13:36 Sunday

James, if you're looking for a long-term investment in a preamp, you're going to have to go all analog, and keep using the analog outs on whatever equipment you buy. The digital processing formats keep changing every 2-3 years, necessitating new equipment if you want to take advantage of the new formats.

I see where you're coming from, and I'm in the same boat, but at some point you're going to have to bite the bullet. I just bought a C2, knowing full well that in at most two years I'm going to need to replace it. (mostly because of HDMI 1.3) It's a sickening feeling, buying something this expensive that I know I will lose money on as a short-term solution. But HDMI is huge, and to be without it when it finally matures (as hopefully 1.3 will prove to be) would suck. So instead of waiting for HDMI 1.3 and keeping my crappy budget receiver, I decided to suck it up, get an intermediate solution, then buy something for the long-term once things have stabilized a little.

**jprafter** · 12 January 2006, 16:07 Thursday

Maybe I'm missing something... What real advantage does the Zhd offer over other HDMI switches currently available on the market?

To take advantage of the C2/C1 switching link we will have to sacrifice the RS-232 port. I think some of us use this with control software programs as well as with the Parasound control software.

Unless I'm reading this wrong, the Zhd is nothing more than an amplified HDMI switch. It offers no digital audio connectivity to the C1/C2. It may, with a software upgrade to the C1/C2, be able to be linked as a video source to a source in the C1/C2 menu, but have we heard specifically this will be the case?

I will be receiving my HD TV soon and it only has one HDMI so I do need a switch. Do you think it is worthwhile waiting for the Zhd?

John

**Chris D** · 22 January 2006, 12:35 Sunday

John, you're right that the Zhd is essentially an amplified HDMI switch. Boil it down, and that's what it is. As far as an "advantage" over other HDMI switchers, here's what I can come up with:

1. It has 5 inputs and one output, where some other switchers can only switch less inputs. (some only from two sources!)
2. It is AMPLIFIED. I don't think people realize what a difference this makes, especially for so many people that send HDMI from their equipment rack over a large distance to their video display. For example, I personally previously tried to use Gefen's HDMI switcher ($399) to switch between three video sources and send over a Gefen 25' HDMI cable to my projector. The cable direct to each source works fine. But through the switcher and with the extra cabling to each source, I was losing video signal and getting flicker and snow. Gefen's solution to me was for me to additionally buy their HDMI signal amplifier to boost the signal. Spending another $199 when I was supposed to have a working solution just wasn't acceptable to me, so I returned it.
3. All connections are on the back of the unit, so it integrates and looks great in your equipment stack. (by comparison, Gefen switchers and others on the market today have all inputs on the back, and the outputs on the front)
4. It's fully certified to carry up to 1080p resolution.
5. All inputs and outputs are HDMI without signal loss. (again, by comparison, some Gefen and others had to use HDMI inputs but a DVI output for regulatory reasons)
6. It's a Parasound Zcustom series, and therefore is rack mountable, integrates with other Parasound Z models, etc.
7. The RS-232 port. It remains to be seen if this is really an advantage as you say. For example, for any switcher with remote control capability, all I have to do to switch an HDMI source as I switch my Halo C1 source is add a HDMI switcher command macro to my MX-700 remote control. If the RS-232 control will do more functionality than this, great. If not, I too see it as redundant and just takes up the RS-232 capability. (note though that if you do not want to lose the RS-232, you can switch by IR instead of RS-232 as I stated)

Do I think it's worth waiting for the Zhd? Sure. Should be shipping within the next few weeks. Why not wait that little bit of time to see for sure?

**jprafter** · 29 January 2006, 13:41 Sunday

Chris, that all sounds reasonable. I definitely want to see what people's opinions are once it is in use.

I have been looking at a Gefen EXT-HDMI-442. I like the following features (particularly ***):

Switch easily between any four HDMI sources
Outputs are mirrored to two HDMI Displays
Maintains 480p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p resolutions

***Additional digital coax audio output extracted from HDMI input for easy connection to multichannel audio receivers

Discrete IR remote (included); RS232 controllable
Fully HDMI 1.2 compliant
HDCP compliant

This unit is not amplified; however I do not expect to have long HDMI runs. All inputs and outputs are on the rear of the unit. I do understand that even if this can extract the digital audio portion, it will only work with the C2 for current digital formats. However, this feature would seem to offer better integration and fewer cables for the audio portion then the Zhd. There is also a 6x2 version with a toslink output.

**Chris D** · 29 January 2006, 14:14 Sunday

jp, I'm currently testing out a new Gefen HDMI-441 switcher. (4 sources, 1 output) As a new model, it improves on the older model. I talked to Gefen the other day, and my previous problems came up with their last HD video switcher. They recommended that I try out this new 441 model switcher, and said I should not need a signal amplifier. However, so far, I'm having the same problems as the last model with video flicker, so it looks like I may be returning this as well and waiting for the Zhd.

Parasound information about HDMI and the C1/C2/7100

Parasound information about HDMI and the C1/C2/7100

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