CEDIA Disappointment.

[kwojciec]

Hi

I am just curious if it is the feeling across the board. We had have high expectations, and most of them did not materialize. No news as far as C1/2 hardware upgrade. In fact I think that there will be no upgrade. Parasound introduced external HDMI switcher, which will be connected to our processors via RS232, so that processor can deal with the sound and that is it. No room equalizer and other goodies. Personally I agree somehow with Parasound. Upgrade at this time does not make sense as HDMI formats are not fixed. HDMI can carry DVD-A, but not SACD, so both switcher and DVD player will need un upgrade in the nearest future to accomodate SACD (if the format will survive).

The D3 player does not live up to expectations either. There is no breakthrough features. It does not upscale picture to 1080p (like for instance Classe player). Once again I am fine if it produce the best quality 1080i, or 720p and of course the highest quality audio. However it seems to me (after my conversations with Parasound technician), that the wise choice is to purchase the classic version of the player D200.

There is nothing new in the amplifier section. I am thinking about upgrading my Rotel amplifiers RB1080 and RMB 1075 and of course the natural line of thinking for the C2 owner is to get A51 and A21. Actually Jerry make me to rethink the idea. Now I will wait until the reviews of digital Rotel amplifiers will be avalaible.

Now the last bad sign, I think, is that so far our friend Brent has not posted any comments on Halo and CEDIA show

I guess that is it

Enjoy the weekend

Krzysztof

[nicholtl]

Hi
...I am thinking about upgrading my Rotel amplifiers RB1080 and RMB 1075 and of course the natural line of thinking for the C2 owner is to get A51 and A21. Actually Jerry make me to rethink the idea. Now I will wait until the reviews of digital Rotel amplifiers will be avalaible.

Why not let your own ears be the official review?

[NMyTree]

Now the last bad sign, I think, is that so far our friend Brent has not posted any comments on Halo and CEDIA show

I guess that is it

Enjoy the weekend

Krzysztof

Wow, such doom and gloom. Such finality to it all.

You would think Parasound came to some dreadful end as a company......as living beings.

It's not over.....till it's over.

I hear no fat lady singing.

[Peter Nielsen]

Wow, such doom and gloom.

Cultural differences, I guess... In the eastern Europe you usually look at things from a more dark/negative perspective. Personally, I'm not at all surprised or offended by Krzysztof's comment, but OTOH I lived in Finland the first 32 years of my life...

Peter

[NMyTree]

Cultural differences, I guess... In the eastern Europe you usually look at things from a more dark/negative perspective. Personally, I'm not at all surprised or offended by Krzysztof's comment, but OTOH I lived in Finland the first 32 years of my life...

Peter

I'm not offended at all. I just felt he was a bit over-dramatic.

I certainly didn't mean to offend kwojciec in any way.

[kwojciec]

Hi again

I guess I overdid it. I just want to tease some people who may know more about future of Halo line than I do, but somehow it was taken as the down with Halo farewell message. To show that actually I am not that pesymistic I will enclose below a report on Halo C2 which I wrote couple of month ago

best

Krzysztof

P.S. I actually lived in (communistic) Poland for 34 years, but I did not loose my sense of humor (I hope). On the contrary..., but that is another topic.

[kwojciec]

Preliminary Report on C2.

I became an owner of a C2 a few weeks ago (thanks Brent). The Halo processor replaced my Rotel RSP1066. The rest of the system consists of Rotel amplifiers (RB 1080 and RMB 1075), a Yamaha universal player (S2300) and Def Tech speakers (BP3000Tl front, with the matching center C3000, BP 2006 TL surrounds – so I have 5 large speakers – each one with sub, and BP 1.2 X rear surrounds). I should also mention my Samsung DLP TV and Dish network HD receiver. I really enjoyed the Rotel sound, but wanted some improvement as far as 2-chanel stereo music and SACD/DVDA multichannel music is concerned. Rotel was a great buy at the time I got it (less than 3 years ago). I compared its sound to Denon’s top receiver (4802 at the time being), Sony ES and to both B&K unit receiver and a processor. Rotel’s sound bested all of them and I was happy with the processor making some upgrades to the system in the meantime (I started with four smaller speakers and C2002 center and basic Toshiba DVD/DVD-A player). Originally I wanted a nice sound for movies, but soon I started to enjoy high resolution and multichannel music, as well as standard stereo music.

I really wanted a preamplifier for 5.1 music and started to inquire about the expected Halo 7.1 analog preamplifier. After some discussion with Brent I decided that I was not able to wait any longer and purchased a B-stock unit with latest upgrade already installed.

I have to tell you one thing: as a pure preamplifier in 7.1 analog pass-through C2 is far, far, far above Rotel. I had auditioned several processors before I got the C2. Let me mention Rotel RSP 1098, Cary Cinema 6, Sunfire unit, newer B&K processor, and Krell Showcase. RSP 1098, B&K and Sunfire did not offered any substantial improvement as far as music was concerned. Cary 6 sounded really good, but I was not convinced that I would get what I dreamed about. I wanted Showcase, but it was a little bit too expensive and it did not have substantial upgrade capabilities. I did not have an opportunity to audition C2, but somehow I trusted Brent and members of this forum and here I am.

I will talk about the many advantages of the C2 in a moment, but what did it to me was 2-channel SACD performance of the famous “Friday Night in San Francisco” concert (Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin, Paco deLucia). I know this recording by heart. I listened to the LP, the CD and finally to the excellent SACD version. It sounded so great on my Rotel. However, C2 took this disc to a new level. Separation of the instruments and smooth constant flow of the music were incredible. I never heard anything like that before. I guess I may need an A21 amplifier to get a little bit more out of in the future, but now I am in Stereo Heaven. I think that as a stereo and multichannel preamplifier C2 is much, much above both Rotels (RSP1066 and 1098) and to my ears the sound is more satisfactory than that of Krell Showcase.

I listened to a multitude of CDs in different stereo setups. Stereo via digital input and Stereo 96 via analog input and stereo via pass through. It was quite interesting. There were really no big differences between those three modes when I played well-recorded discs with classical music and jazz. Everything sounded fantastic. However, when I switched to some older rock and roll recordings, it was a different matter. Somehow analog pass through was clearly superior to other. This seems to be a little bit contradictory to the statement on absolutely superior DACs in C2, or maybe I am missing something.

Now I am using Stereo 96 with standard CDs with classical music and jazz and I use 7.1. pass through, or Natural mode with rock and roll and I do not think that I can do much better than that.

Let me make few personal notes. DPLIIx did not impress me. I have Rotel modes on RSP 1066, which provided 7 channel sound whenever needed and they were not much worse than DPLIIx. DTS Neo 6 is better implemented here than on Rotel and I like it a lot. The Natural mode for music is really the one I love. It is a pity that it is only 5 channel mode. Now, what I really like in the processing abilities of C2, and what was missing in Rotel, is THX processing and this I enjoy immensely, both with movies and music.

I also found DTS sounding a little bit different than on Rotel, different but not better. I watched LOTR and it seemed to me that I preferred DDEX with (THX processing) over DTS ES soundtrack, which on Rotel was much much superior. I got the same feeling when watching the Knebbworth concert. DTS sound was so much better on Rotel and here, well it is different but not better than DD with THX music mode.

Last but not least I did not have time to play with notch filters and this should give me even better sound, as my room is not the best you can imagine. It is 20 x 16 x 9, but it is open on one side in this modern design, hence there are some slight bass problems and I am looking forward to working on it. I will be grateful for any comments and advice

Krzysztof

[Ray]

Yeh, Parasound needs this kind of pro-talk about there equipment. I was also disappointed about the "new" stuff. Brent told us that a lot of new stuff was coming, but as usual ... its in the far future. I have decided to wait no longer, and look for another brand.

[iceman]

Im going to have to agree with the disappointment with Parasound. There is no benefit for keeping loyal customers/onlookers in the dark about the upgrade path of their products. There are too many other excellent home theater values in the market that are more forthright with upgrade issues to deal with this. The Halo DVD is a joke. I was expecting something along the lines of a 5910, with teranex processing or the like, but was let down once again, and for the last time. The addition of an HDMI switch box is ridiculous for a product line that prides itself on clean, striking appearance.

[nicholtl]

That was an excellent review, Krzysztof. Observant yet objective. Thanks for that. =)

[Peter Nielsen]

The Halo DVD is a joke. I was expecting something along the lines of a 5910, with teranex processing or the like, but was let down once again, and for the last time.

What's the street price for the 5910? Can it be had under $2000? (I would guess/hope that we will be able to get the D3 for $1700).

My guess is that Parasound wanted to start off with a less expensive player. Personally, I don't think I would be ready to spend much more than $2000 on something that gets obsolete as fast as a DVD player, unless it had some truely unique features. Maybe they will offer a more expesive and full featured version later...

The addition of an HDMI switch box is ridiculous for a product line that prides itself on clean, striking appearance.

I would think that the switch box can be hidden away in the back of the rack if its ugly. To my understanding, it won't have any switches that need to be accessible...

Peter

[bhuskins]

Now the last bad sign, I think, is that so far our friend Brent has not posted any comments on Halo and CEDIA show

I'm dealing with a 2 day old baby right now and time is very limited...

Nothing but praise for Parasound as always.

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[Peter Nielsen]

I'm dealing with a 2 day old baby right now and time is very limited...

Congratulations, Brent! :banana: arty:

My son will be 1 year next week.

Peter

[kwojciec]

Congratulations

it is so nice to hear from Happy Father

Krzysztof

[NMyTree]

I'm dealing with a 2 day old baby right now and time is very limited...

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

Congratulations Brent!

Best wishes and best of health to your new-born child and your wife!

Oh, and best wishes and health to you too, Brent :B You're going to need it 8) :B

[mitch57]

Congratulations Brent!

Best wishes and best of health to your new-born child and your wife!

Oh, and best wishes and health to you too, Brent :B You're going to need it 8) :B

Boy! You can say that again! Brent, let us know how many times you have to get up in the middle of the night to feed your baby or change a diaper.

[bhuskins]

Introducing Ryder James Huskins, 7lbs, 18" and doing great (so is momma)



Thanks for all the kind notes...

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[nicholtl]

What a beautiful son you got there, Brent! Congratulations again! He looks like he'll grow up to be a strong, strapping young lad. One that'll make his pop proud.

[NMyTree]

Only a few days old and he's already a handsome little guy! 8)

[nicholtl]

It might just be me, but I don't think something as great as Brent's 1st-born son should be under a thread titled "CEDIA Disappointment."

[tboooe]

Brent, congrats!!!!! Best wishes to you and your growing family!

[Chris D]

Wow, CONGRATS, BRENT! arty: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

I agree, Nicholt, not the best thread to celebrate a newborn!

As for the topic, no, I'm not overall disappointed, mostly because of the track that got us here. Here's my summary:

- For the past, what, ... 3 years? We've been hearing about possible Halo upgrades and a new DVD player. Now we've actually got stuff lined up! And it's more than just a "concept car" sort of thing that may be actually produced 4 years down the road. We've got specs, prices, official press releases, and a "planned" release timeframe. No, to me, a disappointment would have been to have yet another electronics show with nothing new.
- Does this mean that we should be ecstatic with anything that comes out just because it's "new"? Of course not. I don't see anything about the new stuff that says any of it is crap.

- I don't think anybody should be disappointed by the New Classic DVD player released. I was actually surprised to see this one come out in addition to the Halo DVD player, so I think everyone should expect this one to be the "entry level" model. Of course, it's not like anything from Parasound comes out as Toshiba or Apex grade quality. So even the "entry level" item promises to be a very solid performer.

- With the HDMI switcher, I don't think this is actually a big surprise. We've had indications for quite some time now that instead of limiting Halo upgrades to what could be fit inside the small C2 expansion slot, Parasound was thinking bigger with increased functionality that take up much more real estate. Now that we're seeing indications that the HDMI switcher will include audio processing IN ADDITION to video switching, I'm actually very hopeful.

- As for the Halo DVD player, I don't know. Since we haven't seen an official press release yet from Gordon Sell, like we have with the D200, I don't know if we're getting the full unit's capabilites reported yet. I was surprised that from what I saw, the Halo player seemed to be a duplicate of a few middle-upper end players today, instead of a progression and improvement over players currently available. (i.e. I'm not seeing anything yet that would make it different or better than my Denon DVD-3910) But who knows... I may have missed something, or we may find out something else still. There was talk that the Halo player might be upgrade-capable to high-def standards when they're released early next year. Maybe that will pan out to be more than rumor.

- We've also seen the release or indication of a couple other new products, like the Zpre2, Z cooling fan, etc, that look pretty groovy.

[bhuskins]

It's our 3rd kid...so no big deal

Our 2 girls are 10 and 12 so we're starting over...

Thanks for all the kind words...

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[bhuskins]

Now that we're seeing indications that the HDMI switcher will include audio processing IN ADDITION to video switching, I'm actually very hopeful.

That's not correct...It will switch HDMI, both audio and video, but no processing will take place. It's simply a switcher that works in conjuction with the C1/C2 and 7100. It's really only going to be useful for video.

I'm not seeing anything yet that would make it different or better than my Denon DVD-3910

You likely won't see any video improvement. Where you'll see improvement is in the audio.

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[bhuskins]

It might just be me, but I don't think something as great as Brent's 1st-born son should be under a thread titled "CEDIA Disappointment."

Pretty Funny!

Brent

[NMyTree]

How does the Parasound Classic D200 compare with players such as the Marantz DV9500, the Onkyo sp1000 and Integra 10.5 ?

[Chris D]

Well, you're asking about a comparison with a product that hasn't even been released yet, so all we could compare is tech specs for now. From what we know, I'd say they're fairly comparable in the big picture. Now, Onkyo and Integra players actually haven't received as good ratings on the Secrets of Hi Fi DVD player shootouts as other units in the past, which is one of the larger reasons I've avoided them.

I'm VERY hopeful that Secrets includes both new DVD players in upcoming shootouts, but it will be some time before the players are released and reviewed.

[Chris D]

Brent, as for the HDMI switcher also passing audio to the C1/C2 for processing, I'll have to look around as to what source I've read that from recently. I know it's been posted somewhere. (although we can always get the most accurate information by asking Parasound direct) I don't know that people have much use for nothing other than a HDMI video switcher. They're already available on the market today. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for audio transmission and processing. That's the direction of the future of A/V, all audio and video transmitted and processed via a digital connection.

[bhuskins]

I've seen it posted too and it's completely incorrect info. There is no way to pass HDMI audio over RS232...it's impossible. RS232 is a low bandwidth communication protocol and not capable of audio. No need to wish for it...it's not going to happen.

Audio processing via HDMI is definitely the future, but not in the C1/C2. Look to see that in a future platform or in a major C1/C2 overhaul which is unlikely. We're much more likely to see a replacement due to the ever changing protocols and I/O standards. It's very hard for a company like Parasound to jump on to the HDMI bandwagon full force a year ago. They would have spent tons of money to get very little advantage. There really is no big advantage to HDMI audio at this point for anything that is mainstream. It doesn't improve the audio for HDTV, DVD, DVHS or CD, it just makes it more convenient in initial cable purchasing and hookup. When the HD DVD/BlueRay thing gets ironed out by Q3 2006 (You can quote me on that), expect to see Parasound (and others) talking about supporting it with a new Pre/Pro product. Until then it's a neat addition but not that useful as far as audio goes. But I know, there's DVD-A and SACD, these guys are all but doomed by the new HighDef DVD standards that will make them so obsolete it's almost funny (except for that SACD collection I built over the last couple of years.)

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[Chris D]

When the HD DVD/BlueRay thing gets ironed out by Q3 2006 (You can quote me on that)

Okay, you got it. Personally, I'm not as optimistic about timing with the format resolution and mainstream distribution.

[Chetk]

Audio processing via HDMI is definitely the future, but not in the C1/C2. Look to see that in a future platform or in a major C1/C2 overhaul which is unlikely. When the HD DVD/BlueRay thing gets ironed out by Q3 2006 (You can quote me on that), expect to see Parasound (and others) talking about supporting it with a new Pre/Pro product.

So we shouldn't expect to see a product from Parasound that supports DTS-HD or Dolby TRUEHD until around 2008, maybe? :cry: And the expansion slot in the C1/C2 was really just there to add an HDMI switcher that doesn't allow encoding of the audio? Seems a little pointless doesn't it? I'm going to have to buy a new receiver just to have the ability to decode DTS-HD and Dolby TRUEHD. I guess, whatever product I buy, I'll make sure it doesn't have an expansion slot so I'm not disappointed when the manufacture doesn't make good use out of it.

That's twice now, that it has happened to me: My C1 and my Mitsubishi with the "promise" module. :cry:

[kwojciec]

Hi

I reported, what I learnt from the Parasound technician who was on site during CEDIA show. I did have a discussion with him on the topic of how to get audio from HDMI switcher to C2 processor twice and twice he stated that it would go through the RS232. He defintely looked like he knew subject very well. Now your comments make me pesymistic about the whole issue

Krzysztof

[bhuskins]

The only thing going through the RS232 will be control...

No chance whatsoever of audio going through it.

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[bhuskins]

So we shouldn't expect to see a product from Parasound that supports DTS-HD or Dolby TRUEHD until around 2008

You need to buy a receiver and move on...High End will never be on the cutting edge of surround modes.

Remember though, that Parasound is a company that continues to learn and grow. I wouldn't go as far to say that they learn from their mistakes, because I wouldn't necessarily call them mistakes. It's really just a matter of moving with the ever changing market. The new surround modes are not even out yet for 1, and they will also be dependent on HD/Blueray DVD, which won't be a reality for another 12 months at least. So, what's the big rush? Parasound realizes these new developments, but also doesn't want to waste resources chasing interim solutions. We'll likely see a unified disc in 12 months and at that point it would behoove Parasound to pick up the pace and be ready to react within a few months of a highdef DVD release...which could be CES 2007. Rest assured that Parasound has some gas in the engine so to speak. They aren't just setting around waiting for everyone to pass them up. Halo will continue to grow and evolve and be the brand it originally set out to be in the process.

And the expansion slot in the C1/C2 was really just there to add an HDMI switcher that doesn't allow encoding of the audio? Seems a little pointless doesn't it?

NO...

Switching the video is what HDMI is all about...the audio decoding is just a convenience. It can be accomplished with other connections that you already have in place. SACD and DVDA are dead anyway and will be completely replaced by the next disc format. Once again, no reason to chase an interim solution.

I'm going to have to buy a new receiver just to have the ability to decode DTS-HD and Dolby TRUEHD.

That's exactly what you should do, because having the mode is more important to you than overall sound, otherwise you wouldn't be making these types of statements. You are the exact customer Pioneer, Denon and Yamaha are looking for...

That's twice now, that it has happened to me: My C1 and my Mitsubishi with the "promise" module.

WOW...do you really think that? Did Parasound every publicly "promise" any upgrades specific to the C1 and C2? I can't name any. There have always been speculations and wishes, but no promises. Mitsubishi on the other hand should be shot for what they did...they're lucky they survived. It’s really inappropriate to put them in the same category.

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[Chris D]

Chet, I really hope you stick with us! (and Halo!)

Hope this doesn't put the nail in the coffin, but as far as we know there are still NO plans for the expansion ports on either the C1 or the C2. The HDMI switcher is planned to be connected via the RS-232 port.

Hmm... would this be a good thing from your perspective, keeping the expansion port open for another future possibility? Or just disappointing that it's still not used?

Your call!

[kwojciec]

" Audio processing via HDMI is definitely the future, but not in the C1/C2. Look to see that in a future platform or in a major C1/C2 overhaul which is unlikely. We're much more likely to see a replacement due to the ever changing protocols and I/O standards. It's very hard for a company like Parasound to jump on to the HDMI bandwagon full force a year ago. They would have spent tons of money to get very little advantage. There really is no big advantage to HDMI audio at this point for anything that is mainstream. It doesn't improve the audio for HDTV, DVD, DVHS or CD, it just makes it more convenient in initial cable purchasing and hookup. When the HD DVD/BlueRay thing gets ironed out by Q3 2006 (You can quote me on that), expect to see Parasound (and others) talking about supporting it with a new Pre/Pro product. Until then it's a neat addition but not that useful as far as audio goes. But I know, there's DVD-A and SACD, these guys are all but doomed by the new HighDef DVD standards that will make them so obsolete it's almost funny (except for that SACD collection I built over the last couple of years.)"

This is really sad, what you wrote Brent. I've been following this Forum for about 2 years and it is indeed true that before (almost) any of the big shows like Cedia it was either you or Parasound which were announcing big things for Halo C1/2. Usually itwas definite hardware upgrade. I personally got an e-mail from you saying that in a year I will be able to upgrade my C2 to the most recent standards. Now it is clear that there never be a hardware upgrade.

We can just look at the Anthem owners. Their D1 Satetment was introduced last year (AVM 50 as well) and those units have upgrade almost allready. Look at the Bryston SP 7.1 , which is having a really significant upgrade right now. I was thinking about a used Bryston unit and now have to regret that I pulled the trigger on the C2 too fast. Anyway, I still think that the C2 is a very good pre/pro.

I also have to disagree with the statement:

"there's DVD-A and SACD, these guys are all but doomed by the new HighDef DVD standards that will make them so obsolete it's almost funny (except for that SACD collection I built over the last couple of years.)"

If you have a good DVD-A disc (pick almost anything from AIX) then you can compare DVD-A track with DD and DTS tracks and see how much worse they are in comparison with DVD-Audio (especially DD) and the SACD sounds even better. There is no way that HD DD and DTS make this gap. I would bet on that. Of course, there is no doubt that the movie sound will be improved.

So, what is our future now? In a year or rather in three years we have a replacement for C2 (which will become obsolete like 5 years from now). The sticker will be around $5,000. It simply does not make sense. I think you can spend this amount of money in a better way. First, the analogue multichannel Halo P7 preamplifier will be out in half a year and it is like $1,500. Now, you buy the second in line Pioneer Elite receiver, which is like another $1,500. You connect your receiver, which has every possible present gadget, to the P7 and run it through one of the 7.1 inputs and you run your universal player through the 2nd 7.1 input. This requires that Parasound make "theater throughput" on one of the P7 7.1 inputs (for the receiver). I hope that they will do this. You have $2,000 saved for your next receiver, or better yet, you can get a refurbished Krell SACD standard for $2,500 and for the price of the future C2 you have your audio Nirvana. You run Krell therough the 2nd 7.1 input and your universal through the 7.1 input of your receiver. Does it make more sense than buying a new C2, which becomes an old C2 in a very small time interval?

Last, but not least, let me mention the universal player. We will see if it can compete with the Integra or Marantz units, but it seems that there won't be a significant difference. I think that everybody expected something at least on level with the most recent Classe unit. I apologize if I offend anybody, but what I have in mind is to start a serious discussion on the future of the Halo line and the expectation (the lower expectation?) we should have as far as Halo products are concerned.

best

Krzysztof

[Chris D]

Krzysztof, your opinion is definitely welcome, as one involved with Parasound and interested.

For now, I'm standing by to see how the releases and news comes out in the next 6-12 months. Things are not certain yet!

[Hirogen]

My guess is that Parasound wanted to start off with a less expensive player. Personally, I don't think I would be ready to spend much more than $2000 on something that gets obsolete as fast as a DVD player, unless it had some truely unique features. Maybe they will offer a more expesive and full featured version later...

Peter

Yes I hope Parasound will indeed offer another Halo DVD player in the near future because to be honest thusfar I am not really blown away by the specs of the D3. Currently I'm not sure yet if I will swap my Pioneer 868 for it.

[Chetk]

You need to buy a receiver and move on...High End will never be on the cutting edge of surround modes.

I already own the C1.

Switching the video is what HDMI is all about...

Oh. See, that must be where I was confused, because I was was thinking that the ParaSOUND Surround SOUND receiver was suppose to be using the expansion port to upgrade it's SOUND capabilities. I knew it could switch the video too, but that it's main focus was SOUND. My HDTV doesn't have an HDMI input anyway, so this "upgrade" would do me about a bit of good as a hole in my head.

That's exactly what you should do, because having the mode is more important to you than overall sound, otherwise you wouldn't be making these types of statements. You are the exact customer Pioneer, Denon and Yamaha are looking for...

ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY 100% WRONG! I didn't buy a Pioneer, Denon or Yamaha. I bought a Parasound. Why? Because I wanted the best. If you're suggesting that I'm chasing "modes" because of their name, you're wrong again. If you take a look at the "modes" I was looking for and realized they are lossless sound "modes", then you would see that my MO would be superior sound quality and not "having a mode" at all. :roll:

WOW...do you really think that? Did Parasound ever publicly "promise" any upgrades specific to the C1 and C2? I can't name any. There have always been speculations and wishes, but no promises. Mitsubishi on the other hand should be shot for what they did...they're lucky they survived.

I agree on both counts. While Parasound never "promised" me any additional sound-related feature upgrades, it certainly was implied by using the "upgradibility" feature to sell me the product. Nothing specific was stated. So you're right: I can't sue Parasound for not delivering on a promise since they never gave one. Mitsubishi, on the other hand, I do have grounds for a suit and plan to file one some time next year when HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are both available.

So I guess the only difference between Parasound and Mits are these: Mits didn't deliver on their promise. Parasound is okay since they never made a promise to begin with. Nice. :roll:

Having said all of the above. I love my C1. I'll love it until the day I have a disc that can play lossless audio, but my C1 can't decode the lossless stream.

Also, I've never gotten involved in Halo DVD discussions in the past, but I think I'm going chime in on this topic now: Why in the world would anybody buy a DVD player that costs more than $25 right now? In less than 6 months, HD will be here. In, probably, 12 months, we'll see a clear HD-disc format winner, and prices will have dropped. Once anyone sees HD discs, why would you buy a DVD player? The worst HD-disc player will, most likely, look better than the best DVD player. Even if the best DVD player has the Halo name in it. I can understand getting excited about a Halo DVD product maybe 2 years ago, but now? I just don't understand that I guess.

[bhuskins]

I'll post more later directed to your comments Chet, but here's the latest from Dolby as of last week. It points out why Parasound and others are taking a wait and see approach...

FYI - TWICE is the best weekly publication for our Industry and definitely the authority on most subjects.


"More Compatibility Seen Between HD Discs, Existing Audio Systems

By Joseph Palenchar -- TWICE, 9/26/2005

NEW YORK — Many consumers who already own an A/V receiver or preamp processor will have more options than previously thought to reproduce the highest bandwidth multichannel soundtracks of Blu-ray and HD DVD discs without junking their current components, Dolby Labs said.

Taking many in the industry by surprise, Dolby announced that consumers will be able to stream all of the discs' mandatory and optional high-bandwidth soundtracks through a receiver's single-cable HDMI 1.1 digital input from many of the new players. Initially, Dolby and receiver manufacturers believed that the only option for owners of existing receivers would be to connect multiple analog-audio cables between the receiver and player to hear the full potential of the high-bandwidth soundtracks.

HDMI 1.1's ability to connect players and receivers, said Dolby Labs technology strategy director Roger Dressler, means “one less impediment to buying the new players,” especially for consumers who have connected the analog outputs of SACD and DVD-Audio players into their receivers' multichannel analog inputs. Although the soundtrack-carrying HDMI outputs aren't mandatory on high-definition disc players, he noted, it's likely that the players will have them.

A single-HDMI connection will be possible, Dressler explained, because in all but perhaps the most basic players, all of the multichannel audio formats on a high-definition disc will be converted to PCM before exiting a player's HDMI output. HDMI 1.1's bandwidth is capable of simultaneously streaming an HD player's video and a high-bandwidth soundtrack, and HDMI 1.1 inputs appear on many newer receivers and processors, all of which are already equipped to process PCM, Dolby pointed out.

The optional and mandatory soundtrack formats of the high-definition disc formats were announced last year, but Dolby and other industry insiders didn't learn until much later that the high-definition players would likely spit out PCM.

PCM conversion will be needed in disc players that support the ability to play Internet-streamed audio content, such as director's comments, while discs are playing, Dressler said. To accomplish that, the players must mix a disc's soundtrack with the Internet stream, and to accomplish that, the players will convert the two streams to PCM. The players might also internally generate PCM sounds that would have to be mixed in as well, he said.

Although PCM conversion within a player isn't mandatory, it is “the most practical way that the next-generation disc players achieve these new interactive features.” Dolby said in a statement. “Content makers are keen for it [mixing]”, Dressler added. “So we expect they will want mixing to happen.”

Like most industry insiders, Dressler continued, "I don't think we understood that mixing would be a substitute for decoding downstream."

Even if mixing doesn't happen in a player, downstream decoding in an A/V receiver through a single-cable connection could be an option when new HDMI 1.3 specifications are finalized later this year. HDMI 1.3 connections could appear in first-generation Blu-ray and HD DVD players, marketers said. The 1.3 outputs would be able to stream the mandatory and optional soundtrack formats in their native form to future A/V receivers that would internally decode the high-bandwidth soundtracks.

The high-bandwidth formats include multichannel uncompressed PCM, lossless Dolby TrueHD, lossy Dolby Digital Plus, and lossy and lossless forms of DTS HD, formerly DTS++ Lossless.

Although Dolby will initially focus on selling its high-bandwidth decoders into high-definition players, DTS said it will aggressively target players and receivers. DTS cited the precedent of high-end A/V receivers to use 1394 digital inputs to accept DVD-Audio and SACD signals in the digital domain for processing. The receivers are marketed as offering superior decoding and processing.

“There could be different solutions to different-priced players,” Dressler added.

S/PDIF inadequate: HDMI in whatever flavor is the way to get high-definition players to spit out wideband soundtrack formats in digital form, Dolby said. That's because the bandwidths of the players' uncompressed-PCM formats, new lossless-compression formats and new lossy-compression formats exceed the capabilities of existing receivers' single-cable digital S/PDIF inputs, which max out at 1.5Mbps. The data rates of the new soundtrack formats can run as high as 27.6Mbps.

For receivers lacking HDMI inputs, consumers would have to hook up six to eight analog cables if their receiver is equipped with multiple analog inputs. If their receiver lacks HDMI inputs and multiple analog inputs, consumers could opt to use the receiver's S/PDIF input to stream a disc's lower bandwidth mandatory multichannel formats, which squeeze through S/PDIF inputs and are compatible with receivers' existing 5.1-, 6.1- and 7.1-channel decoders.

The mandatory formats for Blu-ray discs are the Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS 5.1 legacy formats. For HD DVD, the mandatory formats are the new Dolby Digital Plus format up to 3Mbps and the new lossy HTS HD format. Dolby expects HD DVD players to incorporate built-in converters that will convert Dolby Digital Plus to 640kbps Dolby Digital 5.1 and lossy DTS HD to DTS 5.1 at up to 1.5Mbps.

Examples of the discs' S/PDIF-incompatible soundtracks include Blu-ray's optional six channels of uncompressed 192kHz/24-bit PCM at 27.6Mbps, HD DVD's two channels of 192/24 PCM at 9.2Mbps, and both discs' 7.1 channels of 96/24 PCM at 18.4Mbps, said Dolby.

The data rate of Dolby Digital Plus runs to 3Mbps on HD DVD and up to 1.7Mbps on Blu-ray discs in applications up to 7.1 channels.

Another Plus: Although the mandatory and optional high-bandwidth formats can deliver 7.1 discrete channels, owners of older HDMI-lacking receivers with 5.1-channel analog inputs won't be left out in the cold. Any lossy or losslessly compressed 7.1-channel soundtrack carries metadata allowing producers to control down mixes from seven channels to five for receivers with five analog inputs, said Dolby's Dressler. Uncompressed PCM tracks, however, lack metadata, so a player's down mixing isn't likely to “ensure a consistent result from player to player,” he noted"

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[Chris D]

Interesting stuff, Brent! More reason that I hope Parasound adds HDMI audio transmission and decoding capability to Halo!

[bhuskins]

1.3 HDMI is a ways off though.

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[JamesE]

Has Parasound posted an upgrade postion? Are they going to refuse to upgrade processors sold by unauthorized dealers leaving a lot of unsuspecting customers out in the cold? If we buy a used one, do we have to call Parasound 1st?

[Chris D]

Do you "have to", James? No, of course, not. Would I recommend that you do so? ABSOLUTELY. I can't give any guess as to how Parasound will specifically address unauthorized dealers. But I will say that unauthorized resellers has been a very large problem in the A/V market, and is not allowed to run rampant without consequences.

[JamesE]

I have been saving for a Parasound C2 for a while now. A used one is all that my budget allows. A used C2 sounds like the best bang for the buck that I could possibly get. I'm waiting for the new HD standard to become established and maybe spring for a new one but am afraid that they are going to take a big price jump. Buying a used one and paying to have it upgraded may not be worthwhile vs. a new one.

I realize that unauthorized resellers are a big problem for manufacturers. The unsuspecting consumer should not be drug into that battle. I thought that I had read previously on this site that Parasound was not going to upgrade unauthorized units. That was a long time ago. I just wanted to clarify their position. I have no problem with buying from an authorized dealer. Having backup support is a valuable thing. I live out in the wilds of Montana. We have wolves but, not a lot of authorized Parasound dealers. (Brent, I'm not comparing you to a wolf, just trying to inject a little humor.)