Upgrade to Parasound Halo A21?

[VanHamp]

I'm looking at my next upgrade as follows:
Heres my current system:
Rotel 1056
B&W N805
B&W HTM2
B&W DM601 S2 rears
Mirage substrata 1000 subwoofer
Belkin Pure AV conditioner

Add Parasound A21 or Rotel 1080 or 1095
Change Pioneer Elite Dv-45a to Denon 2910

Of course i'm looking for the most bang for the buck. I feel
that the A21 might do the job, but am really unsure. Will the A21
make my current speakers sing, or is the Rotel 1056 enough.
Thanks

[DrJRapp]

Do you intend to use it with the Shanling CDT300? If so, do not collect Halo A21 go directly to Krell jail. :lol:

Seriously now, an RB 1080 would probably help alot with those 805s. I've never heard the A21 so I really can't comment.

I own a Shanling CDT100 which looks equally as awesome as the 300.

[Chris D]

Wow, we got Jerry in Club Parasound! :T Now that's a feat!

And Van, welcome to the Club and the Guide! :banana:

[VanHamp]

Thanks
The cd player is the best looking piece of equipment I've seen.
Since I am an Architect, I appreciate that level of design.
I'm curios about the Rotel 1080, which is half the price of the
A21, I want to be able to keep the amp for a long time. The power is
200 vs 250 so why the huge price difference? I don't want to spend
extra with no sonic benefit. I would like to know about an amps
ability to double its power from 8 ohms to 4 ohms etc. I read
where the best amps can do this. For example Bob Carver amps.
Should I persue this level of performance or is this barking up the wrong tree.

[Peter Nielsen]

I would like to know about an amps ability to double its power from 8 ohms to 4 ohms etc.

When it comes to Parasound, only the JC 1 is capable of doubling its power at 4 ohms.
Krells are also able to double the power at 4 ohms.
AFAIK, no Rotel will do it.

If you have 4-ohm speakers, it's definitely worth getting an amp that is capable of driving the speaker (power doubling @ 4 ohm is a good measure).

Peter

[mitch57]

We gota get Jerry to audition the Halo line. We might even get him to convert to the Parasound line considering all the problems he has had with Rotel. :W

[nicholtl]

We gota get Jerry to audition the Halo line...

I got that covered... :

[mitch57]

I got that covered... :

So... What's the verdict?

[mitch57]

VanHamp,

While the Halo won't double the power at 4 ohms I feel the sonic improvements are well worth the double cost of the amp. I upgraded from the Rotel RMB-1095 to the Halo A51 and the sonic improvement was exceptional in my opinion.

I feel the Halo line is in an entirely different league then Rotel. Of course, that's just my opinion but I'm sure others will agree. And of course, others will disagree.

Also, the build quality of the Halo line is top notch. Well above Rotel in my opinion. Rotel has great build quality but they have had some quality issues with the 1080 blowing fuses. I do believe those problems have been resolved now.

[RebelMan]

I got that covered... :

That will be the day!

Quality issues aside (I think they have that mostly under control now) you will have a tough time convincing him the Halo series sounds twice as good as Rotel. Furthermore, a 10%-20% improvement won't cut it either.

When I compared the Bryston 4B-SST to the Rotel RB-1080 it sounded better, no doubt, but not by several factors, however, price/performance wise it's a better upgrade than say the A21 would be. Furthermore it comes with a warrantee that Parasound couldn't even dream of matching.

I'm, sure jimmyp58 could uncover "that". :lol:

[RebelMan]

When it comes to Parasound, only the JC 1 is capable of doubling its power at 4 ohms.
Krells are also able to double the power at 4 ohms.
AFAIK, no Rotel will do it.

Actually, the RB-1090 comes very close to double the power output at 4 Ohms (700 W); 8 Ohms (380 W).

[DrJRapp]

We gota get Jerry to audition the Halo line. We might even get him to convert to the Parasound line considering all the problems he has had with Rotel. :W

As a matter of fact I did just that today. Sorry James, if you had bet you would have lost. Nick did cover that well!

I have actually been considering that leap for awhile (to Halo, Anthem or even beyond), because honestly, even though my Rotel gear is working fine at the moment, lately, I'm feeling like I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop, and I don't like that feeling.

As for the Halo audition, I was dissapointed, but I don't think my dissapointment came from the sound of the Halos but from the sound of the Definitive Tech speakers and the room the dealer had to audition them with. (My apologies to any Deftech owners out there). The lower mid/upper bass sounded like someone had thrown a blanket on the speakers. The whole setup lacked the excitement of my Klipsch/Rotel combo. I intuitively KNOW that the Halos gotta be better than that.

I'm in a quandry because there are no dealers in the area that sell both Halo and Klipsch, and the dealer I was at, one of only two here in S. Florida, although accomodating, will only let me do an at home trial if I pay full list and suffer a 20% return fee. That's one thing on a 1000 dollar CD player, but quite another on 10K worth of audio gear.

The Look of the A51 and A21 was impressive. The C2 looked very refined but when I picked it up it felt like a cheap chinese CD player...very light by comparison to a Rotel equivalent, but probably heavy duty enough for a Processor. The feel of the controls wasn't as silky as a 1098, but I use the remote 99% of the time anyway.

I'm not quite ready to convert to Halo yet, I need to do much more listening, both to the equipment and Halo owners like all of you here before I committ to doubling the cost of my core electronics.

[DrJRapp]

P.S. The nice shiny finish on the Halo gear matches the nice shiny finish on the Shanling T100

[Peter Nielsen]

The Look of the A51 and A21 was impressive. The C2 looked very refined but when I picked it up it felt like a cheap chinese CD player...very light by comparison to a Rotel equivalent.

The C2 is of the latest generation of hifi equipment that uses a switched power supply instead of a heavy transformer. That makes a big difference in weight. (A typical pre-amp transformer easily adds 5-10 lbs. A switched PS is usually less than 8 oz). Don't let the lowish weight put you off - in this case it means nothing.

Peter

[VanHamp]

Thanks mitch,
I'm leaning toward Parasound due to good reviews, etc.
Not that Rotel doesn't get their share. But my Rotel 1056 still
has some 'static' like issues with the volume control
moving toward the 70 setting. I really find this unacceptable
with these types of products. I currently own Parasound monblocks,
HCA1201A, cheapies I call them, but still ok. I think of course
Halo would be in totally different league. Anyone with opinions
on the HCA1201A welcome.

[DrJRapp]

The C2 is of the latest generation of hifi equipment that uses a switched power supply instead of a heavy transformer. That makes a big difference in weight. (A typical pre-amp transformer easily adds 5-10 lbs. A switched PS is usually less than 8 oz). Don't let the lowish weight put you off - in this case it means nothing.

Peter

I thought that switched PSes introduce distortion at low signal levels, so I am curious about how this is implimented in a preamplifier/processor without causing tons of distortion.

[mitch57]

As for the Halo audition, I was dissapointed, but I don't think my dissapointment came from the sound of the Halos but from the sound of the Definitive Tech speakers and the room the dealer had to audition them with. (My apologies to any Deftech owners out there). The lower mid/upper bass sounded like someone had thrown a blanket on the speakers. The whole setup lacked the excitement of my Klipsch/Rotel combo. I intuitively KNOW that the Halos gotta be better than that.

Jerry,

I suspect that most of your disappointment is related to the room and the positioning of the Def Techs. I own the Def Tech BP 7002s, CLR 2500, and BP2X surrounds and am very pleased with them. But... placement of these speakers is very critical due to the bipolar design. I'm sure that's what was going on with your audition. Also, from what I've read Klipsch speakers tend to have a more bright sound then Def Techs which may account for some of your disappointment.

It's unfortunate you can't find a dealer near you that will allow you to audition one at home. I had the same problem. I was able to contact Parasound directly and he made arrangements through a local dealer for me to audition one in home with no obligation to buy. Here's his contact information. Perhaps he will do the same for you. His name is Paul Brownlee.

paul@parasound.com

Shoot him an email and let us know how that turns out for you.

[RebelMan]

I have actually been considering that leap for awhile (to Halo, Anthem or even beyond), because honestly, even though my Rotel gear is working fine at the moment, lately, I'm feeling like I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop, and I don't like that feeling.

Say it isn't so Jerry! :cry:

Actually, I am not completely surprised. I ran across some of your older posts when Rotel was misbehaving. You gave them a second chance when many others might not have been so willing too, and some in fact didn't. So I really don't blame you. Whomever ends up with your business, a very loyal patron they will have.

In your quest I hope you include Bryston in your line up. Don't get me wrong Parasites, I am quite fond of the Halo series also and will consider them when the time comes to upgrade my system. However, I just can't get over the detail, the clarity, the imaging and sound-staging that I heard with the Bryston setup versus ARCAM's high-end FMJ series. Bryston smoked the ARCAM. It was simply amazing! Ironically, I expected the ARCAM to rise to the occasion. A head-to-head with Rotel would be in order also, but I have my doubt's my beloved Rotels will win the day. All things considered the Bryston is going to be hard to beat. Now if they would just improve the feature set of the SP 1.7 pre/pro. A possible weakness.

As a matter of fact I did just that today. Sorry James, if you had bet you would have lost. Nick did cover that well!

P.S. You haven't made the switch yet. If I was betting on anything it would have been that.

[RebelMan]

But my Rotel 1056 still
has some 'static' like issues with the volume control
moving toward the 70 setting. I really find this unacceptable
with these types of products.

Jim, my RSX-1056 does the same thing. Rotel tells me that this is the natural side effect of the discreate gain/attenuator that the 1056 employs.

Happens whether I use the volume control knob or the remote control. I don't like it either, especially when it jumps 6+dB at times. Though it doesn't appear to impair the sound once it has been adjusted. Still, it shouldn't happen, but I do like the fact that the knob doesn't get over exercised to the point of possible failure. Tradeoffs, as always.

[DrJRapp]

Mitch

I am sure the speakers, room and placement were the culprit. I also got to listen to some Totems, and although they were a bit better than the Deftech's, they still didn't hold a candle to my Klipsch. I prefer a speaker that is critical (ie: brings out the best and worst of the connected equipment) to one that is laid back and muffeled. I also got to audition the Anthony Gallo Reference 3 speakers while I was there at this dealer, and while they sounded sweet and laid back they had no punch.

James,

Yes it is so. Actually I've given Rotel a third chance. I have had 2 RSP1098s and the second one required a field repair ( three vid boards changed: that I did myself). I'd look into the Bryston, but I'll probably have the same problems auditioning them that I do with the Halos. Also, the feature set on the 1.7 is lame IMHO.

[RebelMan]

I also got to listen to some Totems, and although they were a bit better than the Deftech's, they still didn't hold a candle to my Klipsch.

Which ones Jerry? I heard the Forests. It was driven by the Bryston which smoked my 803Ss when driven by the ARCAM FMJ, and you know how I feel about my B&W's. When I reversed the setup the 803Ss came to life like I have never heard them before.

Also, the feature set on the 1.7 is lame IMHO.

Agreed and this would probably be the only thing that would hold me back. I think I heard they are working on an update to it much like the update they did for the SP 1.0. Maybe when the time comes for me, they'll have it. Maybe jimmyp58 knows something?

Sorry about the partial hijack folks.

[DrJRapp]

I believe it was the Forest that I heard. Like I said, it was clean and smooth...just didn't rock my world enough for me to get out the checkbook yet.

[mitch57]

Jerry,

Have you considered contacting Paul at Parasound? I'm sure he will get you whatever amp, processor, or both you would like to demo in your home for a week with no obligation to buy.

What the heck... even if you don't like it you have the option of taking it back with no questions asked. And best of all you don't have to pay for it! I couldn't pass up the offer. But then again they probably suspected I would wind up keeping the amp, which I did.

Here's his email address again:

paul@parasound.com

Cmon Shipmate! What do you have to loose? But seriously it might be worth your while so you can make an informed decision plus give all of us here at HT Guide your opinions on the Rotel compared to the Halo gear.

Have fun and happy shopping!

[DrJRapp]

Jerry,

Have you considered contacting Paul at Parasound? I'm sure he will get you whatever amp, processor, or both you would like to demo in your home for a week with no obligation to buy.

Cmon Shipmate! What do you have to loose? But seriously it might be worth your while so you can make an informed decision plus give all of us here at HT Guide your opinions on the Rotel compared to the Halo gear.

Have fun and happy shopping!

That's a great suggestion that I might just try. However, before getting that serous I need to check out the compitition, then make sure I'm in the $$ position to pull the triggger. That probably won't happen till September.

I'd love to be able to do an A/B with the Rotel, I just need to figgure out how. I may not have the power here in my current room to run 4 big amps, so that test may have to wait till my dedicated theater room is done (Dec-Jan).

[mitch57]

That's a great suggestion that I might just try. However, before getting that serous I need to check out the compitition, then make sure I'm in the $$ position to pull the triggger. That probably won't happen till September.

I'd love to be able to do an A/B with the Rotel, I just need to figgure out how. I may not have the power here in my current room to run 4 big amps, so that test may have to wait till my dedicated theater room is done (Dec-Jan).

Be sure to keep us posted on how it all turns out.

[DrJRapp]

I'll be out doing some more listening today. I've also come up with another idea. Since I do a lot of 2 channel listeninng with my Shanling feeding a Rotel RB1080 (200 wpc) thru my 1098 in bypass mode, if I were to purchase a used A21 and substitute it for the 1080 I would at least get to hear how a Halo amp is going to make a difference using my RF7s. That way, if I am dissapointed I can always sell off the A21 and probably not take a big loss (if any). That way I can do a long term A/B test against the Rotel amp. This would at least scratch the upgrade bug that is itching badly right now. :lol:

[DrJRapp]

As a PS to the above post, I've decided to do just that, so I just purchased a year old A21 of Audiogon. It should be here on Friday of next week. Now I can do a direct comparison between the Rotel amp and the Parasound. My Shanling CD has volume controls so I can output it directly to the amps without going thru a processor at all. I guess I'll be able to do the purest comparison possible. Seems like I'm now a member of the Club !

[mitch57]

As a PS to the above post, I've decided to do just that, so I just purchased a year old A21 of Audiogon. It should be here on Friday of next week. Now I can do a direct comparison between the Rotel amp and the Parasound. My Shanling CD has volume controls so I can output it directly to the amps without going thru a processor at all. I guess I'll be able to do the purest comparison possible. Seems like I'm now a member of the Club !

Way to go Jerry!!! I'm really looking forward to hearing your first impressions as well as your long term impressions. Welcome to Club Parasound!

I'll be the first one here to bet that you will be very pleased. Anyone else want to place a bet? I bet you will really notice the difference with the A21 due to its Class A/AB operation. The first 8 watts on both the input and output stages are fully on.

I think I'm even more excited then you are. I can't wait to hear what you have to say. Goody... Goody... :lol: ;x( :T ;b> :^x :banana: arty: :dothewave:

I personally feel the Halo line is in a completely different league compared to the Rotel.

[DrJRapp]

I personally feel the Halo line is in a completely different league compared to the Rotel.

It should be, it's in a completely different league in terms of price also! Quick calculations show that I would wind up spending twice what I paid for my Rotel to have apples to apples features. If it turns out that I go Parasound Halo, I will probably go with the C2 vs the C1. The C1 is probably a better match up feature wise to my current RSP 1098 . The C2 is more a 1068 feature wise. I have found the TFT screen to be superflous, so why pay for it? On that basis I will only invest about 165% of what the Rotel cost.

I'm expecting a lot out of the sound of the Halo.

[VanHamp]

Jerry,
Good work on your purchase. I haven't discounted Rotel amps and am looking forward to your listening tests. It could turn out that the Rotel 1080
might be a bargain at $850, local dealer price. The Parasound will cost
$2000. since I want to buy new. Does the Rotel run any into class 'A' operation?
Stay turned.

[NMyTree]

Congratulations Jerry, and Welcome to Halo world! :B

I'm very impressed with my Halo A21. There's a huge difference between the Halo A21 and my previous Anthem MCA 50. There's simply something so right about the timbre/tonality of these amps, as well as being powerful, sweet and smooth.

I'm sure the source and Pre Amp have something to do with it too, but my Halo A21 saw some time with the exact set up as the Anthem amp, and even my girlfriend noticed a big difference in sound quality. And, that was without my prompting her. She just came out and mentioned it one day.

[DrJRapp]

Thanks for your input Tony

Jim, I don't think you could go wrong with the 1080 as an entry level 200wpc amp. Yes, I have been told by a reliable source at Rotel that it does run class A up to 10-12 wpc even though it is officially class AB. Rotel seems to have gotten past some of thier QC issues now that every unit is opened and checked here in the US. One thing is for sure, statistically, the 1080 holds it's value on the used market better than an A21, therefore Rotel is the way to go for those who don't have a lot of money to burn or are just starting to get their feet wet in the world of separates....hey, I was there myself, it's just time to move onward and upward. :lol:

[Chris D]

Congrats, Jerry! That's a banana for sure. :banana:

[mitch57]

Thanks for your input Tony

Jim, I don't think you could go wrong with the 1080 as an entry level 200wpc amp. Yes, I have been told by a reliable source at Rotel that it does run class A up to 10-12 wpc even though it is officially class AB. Rotel seems to have gotten past some of thier QC issues now that every unit is opened and checked here in the US. One thing is for sure, statistically, the 1080 holds it's value on the used market better than an A21, therefore Rotel is the way to go for those who don't have a lot of money to burn or are just starting to get their feet wet in the world of separates....hey, I was there myself, it's just time to move onward and upward. :lol:

I'm no expert but from what I've read in order to truly be a Class A amp both the input and output stage must be fully on. In the case of the Parasound Halo A21 they are in fact fully on for the first 8 watts on both the input and output stages. I don't believe that is the case on any of the Rotels.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this.

[DrJRapp]

Mitch

You are not wrong, neither are you right. Conventionally class of an amplifier is used to describe how it's output stage operates during the input cycle. In reality, there is no such thing as class A/AB, just a class AB amp that is biased very high so that current flow (leakage) occurs 100% of the time at lower power levels. The definition of class AB is that output current flows for more than half, but less than the full input cycle.

If one were to look at a waveform of the output of a class AB amp, some of the top wave would be clipped off, just like it is when overdriven. This represents distortion. So, if we can operate the amp in a range where cutoff doesn't occurr we can avoid that distortion. In the case of John Curl's designs Parasound is able to operate the amp up to about 5% of it's output before cutoff starts to occur. This means that at lower spl, where the cutoff distortion would be most obvious the amp is not cutting off the waveform.

For marketing purposes Parasound has chosen to look at the input stage and the output stage as two separate and distinct amps, which they are in a very narrow perspective. Generally speaking, it would be more complex and more costly to bias and input STAGE differently than an output STAGE, so my guess is that any amp running high bias AB can be described as Parasound does when looking at it from Parasounds perspective.

[mitch57]

Jerry,

So where does that leave Rotel? Do they operate in a similar fashion to the Parasound amps? I really don't understand all the technicalities of amplifier design. But I can learn, at least sometimes I can learn. The older I get the harder it is to learn. Kind of like trying to teach an old dog new tricks.

[DrJRapp]

Some, but not all of Rotel's amps operate high bias AB which would make them similar in operation to Halo. The RB1080 is one of them.

[RebelMan]

Hold the banana's people (eh em... Chris), this is a test, this is ONLY a test. Jerry hasn't made the plunge yet! Although he is itching to. mitch57 I'll take that bet.

Like I said, I doubt he (you Jerry) will find twice the cost worth the far less than twice the improvement in sound. Sure, Halo rocks and looks stunning, but this is Jerry were talking about here. The unofficial Rotel spokesman. Have you all forgotten?

Sure, I see your anxious anticipation for the conversion of one of the last Great Rotel supporters, who wouldn't? But Jerry is very methodical and careful in his ways.

Until he utters the words, I have (decided to) replaced my Rotel gear with Parasound he is still a Rotelian. Until then, all you Parasites go prey on someone far more unassuming. :lol:

[mitch57]

It looks like the next couple of weeks will be very interesting. I'm sure there will be many people anxiously waiting to hear Jerry's findings on the A21. I'm sure he will run it through the paces and give us his honest opinions good or bad.

[DrJRapp]

Hold the banan's people (eh em... Chris), this is a test, this is ONLY a test. Jerry hasn't made the plunge yet! Although he is itching to. mitch57 I'll take that bet.

Like I said, I doubt he (you Jerry) will find twice the cost worth the far less than twice the improvement. Sure, Halo rocks and looks stuning, but this is Jerry were talking about here. The unofficial Rotel spokesman. Have you all have forgotten?

Sure, I see your anxious anticipation for the conversion of the last Great Rotel supporter, who wouldn't? But Jerry is very methodical and careful in his ways.

Until he utters the words, I have (decided to) replaced my Rotel gear with Parasound he is still a Rotelian. Until then, all you Parasites go prey on someone far more unassuming. :lol:

James, your 100% right on. This is a test, granted, a test with a lot of commitment behind it, ( how many people go out and make a purchase in order to make an honest decision) but it is still only a test. There are a lot of people here that are convinced of the superiority of their Halo gear that they think it is a foregone conclusion. Perhaps they are right, but only time will tell. Rest assured that if the sound is superior in clearly identifiable ways, I will make the leap.

Regardless of the results I will probably use the A21 somewhere in my home for a 2 channel rig. Therefore I will "technically" still be a member here too!

[DrJRapp]

P.S. I don't consider myself that great a Rotel supporter, or I wouldn't be here right now. That honor belongs to Andrew Pratt. If my leap doesn't happen to this pond, it will happen to somewhere else, perhaps Classe or Anthem Statement. Part of the reason I am first coontemplating Halo is you guys here in the forum. Part of the pleasure I derive from this hobby is the conversations.

[NMyTree]

Either way, you can't go wrong.

Rotel makes some nice gear.

I'm not sure if the Halo A21 is superior, but it sounds wonderful to ears. I will say the Halo A21 is superior to the Anthem MCA 50 in two channel performace and sound quality, in my opinion and in my experience. I was rather disappointed in the Anthem.

At first I thought the Anthem was sounding good, but when I started pushing it a little bit and ventured into several CDs and several genras of music; the Anthem had a difficult time with music containing busy passages. It started clipping badly. It did this a lot.

Considering I haven't done a direct comparison between the Rotel and Halo, so I can't comment on the Rotel.

[nicholtl]

Part of the pleasure I derive from this hobby is the conversations.

Stop it, stop it. You're making us all feel warm and fuzzy inside!

[RebelMan]

P.S. I don't consider myself that great a Rotel supporter, or I wouldn't be here right now. That honor belongs to Andrew Pratt. If my leap doesn't happen to this pond, it will happen to somewhere else, perhaps Classe or Anthem Statement. Part of the reason I am first coontemplating Halo is you guys here in the forum. Part of the pleasure I derive from this hobby is the conversations.

Jerry, even if you take the leap to Parasound, or the like, you will always be a member of Club Rotel, an honorary one to be sure. Your very lengthy standing with Rotel guarantees this. I see the day when you will move on coming much sooner than I would have guessed, but I am sure Rotel will always hold that special meaning to you as it was the first big step that got you where you want to be tomorrow.

[DrJRapp]

OK James, I should accompany that with some violins...lol...however, this time you are WRONG Rotel was not my "first big step".

I've been in Hi end Audio since I was a teen. Rotel is far from my first venture into separates, my first was Harman Kardon Citation back in the early 80s (in those days we called them "components"). In the early 90s I was also using Accuphase and Phase Linear, Marantz, Carver and Nachamichi all of which have more or less gone over the horizon or sold out except for Carver's Sunfire. HT brought me to receivers because I was living in smaller homes and just didn't see the need for anything more than my Sony ES (something) Pro-logic followed in time by my Denon 3801. It was my re-marriage and subsequent move into a much larger home and spending much more time at home, that generated the need for separates again to achieve the level of quality I wanted at the spl I needed in my 7000+cu ft family room/kitchen area. Now I am positioning myself for my dedicated theater room which should come online in Februray-March depending on how much time my builder has to devote to the project. (that's a joke because I am the builder, but you know the saying about the shoemaker's children???) :lol:

I will probably always promote Rotel to a degree. They do have Receivers, quite excellent receivers, which Parasound and others do not, that allow people like yourself with space or bugetary considerations to enjoy hi-end to a degree not possible with consumer electronics focused receivers. My back yard speakers will continue o be driven by a Rotel RB1050 regardless of what is driving anything else.