DTS-HD & Dolby Digital Plus

[bhuskins]

I don't know --- is wireless connectivity of your components for all audio and video transmissions going and/or meant to take audio and video quality to that "next level" like HD DVD is promising and in such short a time or is it just a convenience upgrade? I completely understand the very good analogy you are trying to make, just seems like a strange comparison. Maybe Hi-Def DVD with DTS HD/DD+ won't deliver the anticipated superior audio and video quality its being made out to --- I think it will though.

If it happens it will be both for quality and convenience...the exact same thing HDMI is trying to do. One cable...no fuss, etc.

The superior quality of High Def DVD and DTS-HD/DD+ will come when content is created with it in mind. That has only recently begun to happen with movies like the one I referenced earlier...once upon a time in mexico. Analog masters won't get great improvements with these new formats. The demos of HD-DVD and Blue Ray for film based movies that I've seen where not that big of a deal mainly because HD Broadcast TV off an antenna looks better. Digital native sources will look like real HD content and that's where the new formats will shine. My biggest point is that very few movies were made that way previous to 2004/2005. And the movie industry isn't going to all of a sudden jump to 100% digitally made movies. Film is destined to be around for a long time to come. Look at how slow the local movie theaters are in converting to digital theaters. The quality of most of the movies listed above will look about the same as the same DVD movie playing on the Denon 3910.

I've seen all the demos at the past couple of trade shows and there is a lot still to be desired. It's going to take standardization in the movie makers, movie theaters, movie distributors, a/v companies and all the other people in between to get the best quality out of movies. This doesn't mean we should stop right here, but it's definitely not a good idea to start selling your DVD collection off in anticipation of HD DVD. One other note, look at the way DVD's are released. How many Terminators are out there? I wouldn't jump off and get the 1st one because there will be an Extreme Terminator out 6 months later. :B

Brent Huskins
Media Design

[bhuskins]

Respectfully, I hope you're wrong I'm already listening to people dumping their collections (and not buying new) in anticipation of HD-DVD. While I think this is a bit premature, and I'm not going to do this, I will say that I am not going to be thrilled with buying new-releases in the old technology...while they are re-releasing older films in the new technology. This will not be a good business decision...if the technology is there. I just can't get a grasp on any of this right now.

I hope I'm wrong too...I love new technology, but without 1 format the industry will really suffer. The next round of format wars will be good for no one...consumers included.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

[LEVESQUE]

Who wants sub-standard scaling when paying $6,000 to $10,000 for a Prepro?

Sub standard? The scaler in the D1 will be on par with the DVDO IScan and Lumagen best offerings on the market now. Do you know how Kris Deering is? It's the guy doing the great DVD-players shout-out at Secrets, and he's helping Anthem with the scaler. Sub-standard? With Kris on board? Not so sure...

Some people are still using the Bravo D1 (under 200$ player) with digital projector costing over 10K$ and more (see AVS forums if you don't believe me). So if people are happy with HDMI players costing under 500$ (Panasonic S97, new Sony HDMI, and others) paired with high-end projector, then giving them a scaler beeing able to compete with the DVDO IScan or Lumagen scalers in a pre/pro is a big plus IMHO, and add to this an HDMI switcher and firewire connections... Good HDMI switchers are still around 200-300$, so there will be one less thing to buy.

I know what I'm talking about. I'm now using at home the IScan HD+ (SDI), Pioneer Elite 59avi, Denon 5900 SDI modded, a Denon 1910 and a LG7832.

And I already pre-ordered the new Algolith scaler "Dragonfly", that will be the first on the market to fully use the Realta HQV for scaling and de-interlacing.

So if a crazy videophile like me is happy with what the Anthem D1 will offer, then I think alot of people will be happy too...

Sorry for the hi-jacking. But bhushkins (the dealer) and I are old friends that likes to poke at each other...

[Adz]

Hey Alain,

You sure got my vote for breathing life into these threads - nice to see you posting again.
Can you explain how you are using the IScan HD+ (SDI) and the Pioneer Elite 59avi and Denon 5900 SDI modded in your set-up and the benefits over just using the Elite or Denon directly to the projector. Thanks,

[bhuskins]

Sub standard? The scaler in the D1 will be on par with the DVDO IScan and Lumagen best offerings on the market now. Do you know how Kris Deering is? It's the guy doing the great DVD-players shout-out at Secrets, and he's helping Anthem with the scaler. Sub-standard? With Kris on board? Not so sure...

Of course I know who Kris is...Just because he suggests it doesn't mean it will be implemented though. I'm sure all of his ideas are great but some will undoubtedly be cost prohibitive. I guess instead of saying sub-standard I should have suggested on par with entry level scalers. I would not consider the DVDO scaler on par with the Lumagen VisionPro HDP, however. Anthem doesn't need Kris to tell them what to do though, they just need to spend a couple hours over at AVS and they'll know exactly what to do. Other companies are doing the same thing already...the new Halcro SSP-100, which I have one on the way, upscales to 1080p and it's using the Oplus scaler, which is also used in all of the Integra products.

Some people are still using the Bravo D1 (under 200$ player) with digital projector costing over 10K$ and more (see AVS forums if you don't believe me). So if people are happy with HDMI players costing under 500$ (Panasonic S97, new Sony HDMI, and others) paired with high-end projector, then giving them a scaler being able to compete with the DVDO IScan or Lumagen scalers in a pre/pro is a big plus IMHO, and add to this an HDMI switcher and firewire connections... Good HDMI switchers are still around 200-300$, so there will be one less thing to buy.

Just because people are still using the sluggish Bravo D1 doesn't mean it's very smart. That player has a great picture but it's one of the worst in regards to everything else...including audio. I don't have to read at AVS to know that. For some, having an "on par" scaler built into a high end Prepro will be completely perfect for them. My only point is that most of the customers that I deal with that have a high end projector, a high end Prepro/Amp combo, a high end DVD player also end up getting a high end scaler as well. For that type of client, they'll want a Prepro with Realta or Gennum inside or something superior. I would be willing to bet though that Denon will have a receiver with Realta inside before any of the independents like Parasound or Anthem get something like that accomplished.

I know what I'm talking about. I'm now using at home the IScan HD+ (SDI), Pioneer Elite 59avi, Denon 5900 SDI modded, a Denon 1910 and a LG7832.

And I already pre-ordered the new Algolith scaler "Dragonfly", that will be the first on the market to fully use the Realta HQV for scaling and de-interlacing.

So if a crazy videophile like me is happy with what the Anthem D1 will offer, then I think alot of people will be happy too...

Sorry for the hi-jacking. But bhushkins (the dealer) and I are old friends that likes to poke at each other...

No one is suggesting you’re an idiot...let me think about that...no, not even me! :rofl: We actually have had very similar setups over the last couple of years minus a couple of pieces of gear. I too have the Dragonfly on preorder. It seems odd you would have the Dragonfly on order when you say that you'll be happy with the D1 built in scaling though. It seems to contradict your point. Am I missing something?

Brent Huskins
Media Design
(HTGuide Sponsor)

[Chris D]

:roll: Here's we go again.

[Chetk]

Consider this thread hijacked.

May I respectfully request we move back on topic?

[goldear]

"May I respectfully request we move back on topic?"
-----------------------------------------------------

As much as it pains me to say this...there isn't alot to move back on topic with. I've spent the last couple days at AVS trying to get some answers on HDMI and DTS/DD, and there are literally contradictions within contradictions...even from those who know the most.

Some people are denying that an HDMI Ver. 1.2 even exists...while another claims it's been finalized, but he can't provide any official notice...even from HDMI. If you get a chance or want to join in, just search under my username and you'll find about three different threads with nothing but confusion. I can see why Parasound hasn't made a committment to anything at this point; it's literally a mess.

[bhuskins]

Actually Chet and Chris, I think we're right on target with this thread. You're welcome to chime in on your opinions, but the idea that this discussion is over is rather short-sighted. This topic encompasses much more than just Halo and it's the exact reason LEVESQUE stopped by to discuss it as well. These problems that plague future product development from Parasound Halo, Anthem and all the rest need to be discussed and are at the essence of this thread.

Having good debate between two well versed and respected members is not only good for this forum; it's good for the industry. Manufacturers read these threads. If everyone is overly nice and we never challenge each other's comments then what good is a forum like this except for casual friendships? BTW - I consider all of you guys my friends. As long as these debates remain civil, there's a real need for this type of discussion.

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Forum Sponsor

[goldear]

By all means, I didn't mean to end any debate. What I'm saying is that I think "some" of us are beating ourselves over the heads with something that is beyond our control at this point. From what I've seen in the last few days...and from what Chet himself has reported from Parasound, nothing seems to be moving on the HDMI/DTS/DD front until some inherent issues get resolved (or announcemnts are made).

This doesn't mean issues shouldn't be discussed...only that "getting back on topic" may limit our options since this does involve a broad range of issues. Heck, I brought Anthem (and indirectly Levesque) into the discussion to see what they were doing to address these concerns...not because I thought it was off-topic. On the contrary, I've just asked others to join me in getting more info.

[bhuskins]

I should have said Chris D...not intending to direct this at you Chris B. Sorry for the lack of clarification. Me and you are absolutely on the same page.

HDMI is coming from Parasound, I'm just not at liberty to discuss the details yet. People will be very happy with their direction as well. Expect more info in June.

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HT Guide Sponsor

[Chris D]

[Chetk]

HDMI is coming from Parasound, I'm just not at liberty to discuss the details yet. People will be very happy with their direction as well. Expect more info in June.

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HT Guide Sponsor

Ooh. Ooh. A trade-in program comes to mind. Maybe, Parasound is making a new Halo processor (closely resembling the C1 or C2) and you can trade in your current model with the new model with HDMI. Of course, it's all speculation, but I'd be cool with that as long as the new model does everything the C1/C2 did. :lol:

[bhuskins]

Chet, I will go ahead and commit to take in your trade to keep you happy. The upgrade cost will be $4,000 please.

:B :B :B

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[boe]

I just asked Bob MacDonald at Parasound what he thought about the likelyhood of that happening. Here was his reply:
Chet,

This sort of upgrade would require a major overhaul of both the DSP engine and rear panel. I don't believe coax or optical cables will support this type of audio. This will require HDMI connection to your DSP. This large of an upgrade would probably cost as much as a new unit. So, I don't see something like this happening any time soon.

-Bob

I'm glad someone got an anwer on this. I'm looking forward to getting a new preamp but I thought I might wait in case equipment required changes to support DTS-HD and/or Dolby Digital Plus. I've looked at the Parasound 7100 and the Rotel 1068 but believe both are lacking features I would want to consider them long term investments (6+ years). I'm not looking for video switching, I'm more concerned with the audio part of the preamp for HT. I've also looked at many other brands but think these two are most likely to come up with a reasonably-priced preamp processor that has adequate features.

[netarc]

Sony & Toshiba in an HD-format compromise??

I mean, let's face it, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will be here within months. Does anybody see Parasound offering an HDMI solution and firmware upgrade to allow the C1 or C2 to decode these formats by the time the new HD discs arrive?

Looks like both HD formats are going to be delayed by another year...

Sony, Toshiba Seek Unified DVD Format

One DVD format to rule them all

[Chris D]

Yup... this is one time, however, where I **AM** willing to wait for the new format, if it will mean one unified format, not competition and format death.

HOWEVER, this puts the question back on a Halo player and what this will mean. Does Parasound keep delaying a Halo player in order to make it one of the first HD models? Or do they just make a stance and put out a model with current technologies?

In any case, it no longer looks silly to buy a new DVD player now, as HD may not be quite as close as we thought.

[Chetk]

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I was wondering, if I get an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player when they're released, and purchase an HD movie that does support DTS-HD, do you think it would be better to use the analog audio out of the player to the analog in on the Parasound and use the DTS-HD track?

The DTS-HD Page states "As a mandatory technology in the next generation standards, a DTS decoder will be built into every HD-DVD or Blu-ray Disc player." I suppose it depends on the quality of the DAC built into the player.

[Chris D]

Chet, I think that's the right answer. A good comparison would be SACD or DVD-A. You can get better resolution sound now with a SACD player to the Parasound analog inputs than if you try to use a redbook CD player with digital connections.

Of course, I'll emphasize again that the goal we (and Parasound) should all be shooting for is pure digital connections and decoding. So this would be a high def DVD player (Halo preferred, of course) connected via something like DVI to DVI switching on the C1/C2/7100, with decoding capabilities added to the C1/C2/7100 for SACD, DVD-A, WMVHD, DTS-HD, Dolby Digital Plus, etc.

[Chetk]

HDMI is coming from Parasound, I'm just not at liberty to discuss the details yet. People will be very happy with their direction as well. Expect more info in June.

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HT Guide Sponsor

Alright Brent...Here we go again...It's July. :B

[Shane Martin]

connected via something like DVI to DVI switching on the C1/C2/7100, with decoding capabilities added to the C1/C2/7100 for SACD, DVD-A, WMVHD, DTS-HD, Dolby Digital Plus, etc.

Chris,
You would need to go HDMI to make this happen. DVI doesn't carry audio plus regular toslink/coax doesnt have enough bandwidth to receive the incoming digitized signal. HDMI(digital) is what you want. Oddly so far only one company has offered an upgrade to their existing equipment to support these formats(Lexicon). Hopefully Parasound will do it as well.

Don't expect a unified format either.

[Chris D]

Whoops, typo on my part. You're absolutely correct--HDMI. Shane, I think you're the one that posted about new Pioneer units that upconvert everything to HDMI and have HDMI switching. Looks like Parasound has a new standard to upgrade to!

[Shane Martin]

In a way it's kinda sad though don't you agree?

Arcam offers switching but I'm not sure they offer upconversion. The upconversion addition by Pioneer is a COUP.